Did somebody say sealed records?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

I see that a lot of people here believe(or give lip-service) to the idea that since Dean sealed his records, there must be something to hide.


Quick question.

Where can I find the records and correspondence of John Kerry, John Edwards, Dennis Kucinich, Dick "Geppy" Gephardt, and Joe Lieberman?


Since it's such an issue, all the other candidates MUST have made these materials available for public perusal. So where can I find them? I'd like to take a peek at them.



Thanks in advance.

[SahaleArm]

1. Aren't records released after the candidate leaves office? *nm*

[babzilla]

2. were Clarks?

after he left his supreme allied commander office?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

5. I didn't add Clark because

there isn't a procedure whereby retired military personal must unseal their records. But if he's got nothing to hide...

There certainly are some time periods of interest to me where his corresponce and written commands would be very enlightening.

[OhioStateProgressive]

24. didn't Clark release all his documents to the press a few months ago?

i seemed to remember something about that?

[SahaleArm]

32. Yes he released those that the military would let him *nm*

*nm*

[slinkerwink]

40. so did Dean----he released 60% of his records to the public

or what Vermont legal system would let him.

[diamondsoul]

3. There are letters from Kucinich published all over

the internet, and his congressional work is public knowledge. What records do you want to see?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. Yes, they all have select letters out in the public domain.

Even *gasp* Dean.


These records aren't just released willy-nilly. There must be a central depository. If you could direct me to the web archive or institution that has said records, I'd be grateful.


Thanks again.

[OhioStateProgressive]

6. Dennis's Cleveland Mayoral records were published

check the "Cleveland" magazine

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

8. Thanks. Is that magazine available online?

That was 20 years ago, though. Dean's records are sealed for 10. Nevertheless, I appreciate the information.

Btw, I'm not concerned about DK hiding something, nor am I concerned about his character. I'm trying to make a broader point here. However, if there are records available, I certainly want to take a look. Thanks again for the lead.

[OhioStateProgressive]

9. i understand what you mean

i just figured i would tell you that about his records...im not sure if they all are available online...one of the main reasons Dennis was vindicated in Cleveland was because of his records being published

i agree with you, sealed records...i don't think it necessarily means they are hiding something

[JohnKleeb]

10. Is that right? I didnt know that but then again I dont live in Ohio

[OhioStateProgressive]

11. yeah, or at least it helped alot

Cleveland Magazine helped get Dennis out of office...they had one article that was a few weeks long isntallment thing where they discussed whether Dennis was insane or not...the article about Dennis last week in office...it was bad

a few years later they published his records, he was able to get a Clerks job again...but nothing else, and when they finally published the financial figures in 1993 he was fully vindicated, and he returned to Ohio and got back in the show

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

12. IIrc, he was vindicated on his taking on Muni Light.

Good for him.

[JohnKleeb]

7. Yep it was a brave thing

BTW I have a hunch things are gonna get peaceful with the daily democrat stuff, btw did you see my thread about him and the mayor of Cleveland with others fighting for their local hospital, thats the stuff of greatness. Thanks RiF, I agree it was the right thing, although the affect wasnt seen immediatly, in the end he was right.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. Seargent Schultz Kick....

I see nutink.


:kick:

[DrFunkenstein]

14. I Bet You'd Like To Peek, You Little Perv

:loveya:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

15. !

[DrFunkenstein]

16. Lol

<>

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

17. Now, about Kerry's records.

Anything?

[blm]

18. GOP operatives have been on Kerry's case for over 30 years nonstop.

They've thrown everything they had at him. I have no idea about his Senatorial records, but Kerry has known he's under their scrutiny for decades and no doubt acts accordingly. Kerry was Scaifed years before Clinton even.

[Nicholas_J]

20. Yup

Becasue under FOIA, everything he does in his role as an elected official is available to any taxpayer who request the information.

The difference is that his records are in his office or in the various congressional offices since he is still an active elected official, and Dean is not, so that his records according to law should be placed in one place and then available for public persusal, as Dean is not using them anymore, nor does he need to refer to documents he wrote in the past for current work as an elected official. Which is why once an elected official is out of office all of their records them are places in ONE place for public access. Example. You can request the Nixon tapes that are part of his record as President and that have to do with his activitie as president if you want with no problem, He isn't using them any more.

Same thing with Dean. The public right to access his record of things done as Governor supercedes Deans desire to keep them hidden under the first amendment, and other areas of state law. the taxpayer was paying for them. The own them. Again the only legally sealable documents are those which would be of a confidential nature between Dean and a private citizen, or an issue which is private and personal between Dean and another elected official. Everything else is public domain, and Dean probably knows it, he was just buying time until someone opened the issues of the the legalities of sealing the records.

[Padraig18]

27. Care to respond to the smack-down later in this thread?

FOIA does not apply to Congress. A bit of egg on your face, Nicholas_J?

[dsc]

31. Freedom of Information doesn't apply to Congress

Stop misleading us by saying that it does. I have posted a link below, put out by the department which is charged with enforcing it, which states that it doesn't apply to Congress.

[Nicholas_J]

19. Any of the other candididates who are serving in Congress

Records are completely available under the Freedom of Information Act.

If you want to know who Gephardt Called on a particular day, for a particular reason, you fill out the forms and request specific information about that day. Unless there is some pressing issue of national security for ALL of the call on that day, you get the list, and if some are of national secrity, those areas are blacked out.

If YOU work for the government, even your application for the job is available under the freedom of information act, your test results for any tests you take for promotion, your performance evaluations, and so on. Only information that might allow a person to endager or stalk you is blacked out.


AS for those who say of Deans records "Everything in those records is already known"

There is then NO reason for sealing them"

or for Dean to State:

Dean Defends Sealing His Papers as Governor
By JODI WILGOREN

Published: December 2, 2003


A conservative group based in Washington, Judicial Watch, plans to file a lawsuit, perhaps as soon as this week, to gain access to the records, which were sealed under the executive privilege exemption to the Vermont Public Records Act and include reams of correspondence with the state staff.

"He has been acting like he has something to hide," said Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch.

Dr. Dean, who initially asked that the records be sealed for 24 years, told Vermont Public Radio before he left office last year that he sought a longer grace period because "we didn't want anything embarrassing appearing in the papers at a critical time in any future endeavor."

"It would be impossible to anticipate how opponents might mis/use even the most innocuous of documents," Mr. Sanford wrote to Mr. Rocchio in the summer of 2002. "Setting new barriers to access in an attempt to anticipate attacks would be, at best, unfortunate. Ironically, such barriers would probably become an issue, detracting from the governor's proud record of achievement.



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/02/national/02DEAN.html

Among the things still unknown are Deans telephone records to key players in the sale of Vermont Yankee to Entergy/Koch Industries.

His telephone logs and the people to whom he spoke while Dean was involved with the decision to grant the sale to this company, rather than other companies who requested the purchase agreements earlier, and who did not give donations to Deans campaign presidential campaign.



Dean statements on Hardball about protecting confidential information such as correspondence between him abnd someone who was H.I.V. positive, or other similar personal communications of a confidential nature, say someone who worked for a Vermont Department who was aware that their boss was doing something illegal, but wanted to remain private are also the types of communications that would be ROUTINELY sealed and would be totally unavailable even if Dean had not sealed his records, as well as any information that was of a senatitive nature regarding national security, such as a letter to Dean about possible terrorist activity that might be of a nature that would compromise an investigation to prevent a terrorist bombing, too would be sealed, and kept confindential under both federal and Vermont State laws. These would automatically be redacted under both state an federal privacy laws, so Deans argument in this area holds no water.

The only thing Dean is trying to do is to keep the public from knowing things that he has done that might cause some people to decide that they did not want to vote for a person who made decisions of a pericular nature. These might not necessarily be bad, or illegal, or unethical, but they are of value to those who take particular stands or have particular beleifs about certain issues, and for these people Dean would not be the optimal candidate in their opinion and so they would perhaps decide to not vote for Dean and then vote for Clark or another candidate.

Deans actual statement that he didnt want the public who might decide not to vote for him because of decisions that he made as a Governor, or conversations he had while acting in the capactity of Governor which people had the right to know in order to make an informed decision about their voting for Dean however is a clear violation of the Vermont Constitution as well as the First Amendment.

Wanting to keep parts of ones record as an elected public official performing ones duty as chief executive of a state is not a legal reason for wanting records sealed. They are not legal for Bush either and legal rights organizations in Texas and nationally are engaged in trying to have Bush's records as Governor unsealed.

Dean sole reasoning for sealing the record was to keep the electorate in the dark about questionable acts and decisions while he was governor. Not to protect individual's privacy, or for reasons of security. To protect himself.

I knew that this would the issue to be brought up as near to the first primaries and caucuses. It is the most damning aspect of Deans campaign and if Dean does not open them, there will be people who decide they will change their vote, and if he does open them, there are other people who will decide that they do not want to vote for Dean any longer becasue of some of the contents of the records.
Some will simply decide that they do not want to risk another Bill Clinton type scenario, in which something that is "EMBARASSING " pops up and creates a situation which is favorable for the Republicans.

Others seeing that Dean perhaps had a lot of telephone calls to the people who gave him donations while Vermont Yankee was being sold might not be comfortable with that.

Others who see the full record of his phone calls and memos regarding the veto of pharmaceutical legislation in 1996, who would have benefited from the legislation that Dean veto'd after receiving campign contributions from the pharmaceutical companies who were lobbying for the bills defeat might not want to vote for Dean if they had full knowledge of why Dean veto'd it, regardless of whetther it was done because they beleive that Deans Veto was bought, or just do not feel comfortable with the fact that Dean did not behave in a manner that they thought ethical by taking the money and not being open about the situation until AFTER it was revealed by others that this happened, rather than Dean immediately stating, yes, the donated to me, but that had not effect on my decision. Dean had to be caught in the appearance of having his hand in the cookie jar beore he tarted explaining.

Either way, this situation is not favorable to Dean and is favorable to Bush.

As Sancho Panza said in Man Of La Mancha

"Whether the Stone hits thr pitcher, or the pitcher hits the stone, its going to be pretty bad for the pitcher"

[dsc]

21. That is just plain untrue

Freedom of Informantion Act doesn't apply to Congress. Here is the link to prove what I just said. http://www.copyright.gov/foia/

Here is the text.

The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), which can be found in Title 5 of the United States Code, section 552, was enacted in 1966 and provides that any person has the right to request access to federal agency records or information. This right of access is enforceable in court. All agencies of the United States government are required to disclose records upon receiving a written request for them, except for those records that are protected from disclosure by the nine exemptions and three exclusions found in the FOIA. The federal FOIA does not provide a right of access to records held by Congress, the courts, state or local government agencies, or by private businesses or individuals. All states have their own statutes governing public access to state and local records and state authorities should be consulted for further information about such records.

end of quote

Note the bold print. You are baldly misinformed here. The truth is the exact, precise and utter opposite of what you told us. Kerry's nor any other Congressional record is available under FOIA. Not his job application, not his schedule, not his letters, not his speeches, not his memos, not his correspondence. Not at thing.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. I was just returning from a couple of government websites,

when I found your reply. You nailed it. Nutshell version: FOIA deals with "agencies," not individuals. Now why am I not surprised that the wool was attempted to being pulled over DU's eyes? :shrug:

[dsc]

23. Given that the last time this was brought up

I posted the very same thing, about the very same issue, it doesn't take a rocket scientist.

[DannyRed]

25. Sooo,

Nick J,

Given that you have just been smacked down in quite seriously embarassing fashion, might we expect an apology or a retraction?

Hmmmm?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

26. Pulling a Janklow.

Hit-and-run.

[ProfessorPlum]

28. Excellent question

Excellent, excellent question.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. Sealed-Records-People-Kick

Let's Go, people.

If you're gonna say it, back it up.

:kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

30. I see it everywhere kick

If you're not willing to respond...don't mention it again.

:kick:

[Egnever]

33. Just cause its important to find out the truth kick

:kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

34. Not getting much truth here, unfortunately.

So it goes.

I link to this thread everywhere I see this issue brought up. Oddly enough, no one is responding. Wonder what that means. :shrug:


Thanks for the :kick:, Eg.

[Egnever]

35. The truth just doesnt work for bashing it seems

But hey any time I can give you a hand trying to find it I will be hapy to do so :)

:kick:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Lots of brouhaha. One response. DK's mayoral papers.

Does this tell you anything?


Shame :kick:

[killbotfactory]

37. What are they hiding?

It must be something bad.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

38. Downright evil, would be my guess.

Kerry's connections to the mob.*
Edward's links to pedophiles.*
Gephardt's money laundering scheme.*


Yell, yell, yell. And then nothing.





*Make believe. Just like the Dean "scandal."

[ozone_man]

41. I bet Kerry is BFEE.

He's a Skull and Bonesman just like Bush, remember. The mind races with the possibilities.

Those hypocritical bastards.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

39. "Dean says judge should decide on Vermont records."--Salon

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/12/07/dean_records/index.html



"Clearly our campaign can't review the documents, because nobody would believe that we weren't doing something political," he said. "So let an independent third party -- and I think the Judicial Watch suit gives us the opportunity to let a judge go through every single document."


Sounds like he's got something huge to hide. L out F'ing L.

[snyttri]

57. A judicial procedure that outlasts the primaries keeps the records secret.

Dean told Vermont Public Radio shortly after he negotiated the deal that he wanted the records sealed to avoid embarrassing stories during his presidential campaign. On Tuesday, Dean dismissed that comment as "a smarty remark" and said, "I wasn't really being very serious about it."


http://tinyurl.com/z8ws

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. But back to the question....

Where can I find the other candidate's correspondence?

Thanks in advance.

[Padraig18]

42. Thank you, Rummy!

A healthy serving of their own hypocrisy is just what some of these folks need to be force-fed!

[Raya]

43. Post is SHAMEFULLY FRAUDULENT. Congressional Record are Open by Law!

IT IS REALLY SHAMEFULL HOW the Dean approach reflected on this post is based on pernicious and devious propaganda techniques. There is a horrible symmetry with the Rove machine. Truth is irrelevant. Illusion is everything.

Everyone involved in presidential political discussion should be
willing to take the effort to find out that House and Senate records are public unless officially classified for national security purposes.

This is one of the classic difference between a Congressman and a Governor running for President that has been discussed for decades. That is, the Congressional record is much more open to scrutiny and critique than the decisions of Governors.

I should be obvious, that the media attention to the Governors sealed records (Bush's or Dean's) indicates that a very different set of fact apply here than to the other candidates.

Dean's "Let a judge decide" has already been exposed as a phony delay tactic to keep records locked until after the first primaries.

The lack of knowledge in the Dean camp should scares me. I should
scare all of us.

[molly]

44. Raya, it is NOT lock of knowledge - it's ignorance

they DO NOT want to know the truth. Anyone sealing records should put up a red flag. If unsealed records reveal bad things, their world would crumble.

[dsc]

45. that is flat out false

Time and again it is claimed that Congressional Records are under FOIA and as I have linked (unlike you I might add) the people charged with enforcing FOIA say they aren't. Now if you supply a link, a real link, that backs up what you say then I will admit I might be wrong. You have done no such thing.

On edit There is a huge difference between the Congressional Record which is open and records of individual Congressman which aren't. You can't get at Congressional correspondence or memos which is what are sealed with Dean. You posted a very rude post calling us ignorant. Unlike you, I provided a link. Unlike you, I didn't name call. Unlike you, I backed up my words. This alledgedly ignorant Dean supporter did his homework unlike you. Back up your rude mouth.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. Fraudulent indeed. See Post # 21.

This lack of knowledge frightens me.

[dsc]

47. I am waiting for that link

you had enought time to post a bile filled thread in the General discussion forum. Why no time to back up your rude post?

[dsc]

48. am I ever going to get that link?

you have repeatedly posted hatefilled GD crap and seem to have no time to do your homework. Is this the latest incarnation of not being ignorant?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. Laugh Out Fucking Loud!

Edit: 9 days on the front page and...zippo.

9 days of posters in other forums being directed here and...zippo.

Just plain Zippo.

[beaconess]

50. Because . . .

(as I posted in General Discussion)

Why hasn't Howard Dean made this argument?

Probably because he knows it's bull.

Those of you trying to compare Dean with other candidates are missing a crucial point. Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman, et al, are all members of the legislative branch, a deliberative body whose decisions are made in the open - as noted previously, not only do their deliberations take place in public and are fully on the record, their vote is also a matter of record. The public nature of their duties ensures the level of transparency and accountability that the public needs. Thus, there is no need for members of the House and Senate to release their inter-office files.

Moreover, the vast majority of this information is not the property of the Member but of the House and Senate. Thus, they don't have the authority to seal or release most of the documents since they don't belong to them.

On the other hand, Dean, Bush and other governors, are part of the executive branch, where deliberations and decisions are not nearly as visible to the public as those of the legislative branch. Unlike members of the House and Senate, a governor does not operate as part of a collaberative or larger body. As such, he has considerably more power than any individual legislator and, as such, is held to a higher standard of accountability.

People who are familiar with government and its machinations understand this and that is why there has been no hue and cry for Senators and Members of Congress to "unseal" their files. Anyone who knows how all of this works knows that that is a silly argument.

That probably explains why Howard Dean hasn't made any such demand.

[dsc]

51. utterly false

The stuff sealed by Dean are memos to and from staff and letters to and from constituents. You can not get those for members of Congress. It is untrue to say you can. The reason he isn't making this argument is that he has more class than to do that.

[beaconess]

52. What was false about my post

You don't reflect well on your candidate when you make such an unfounded allegation and mischaracterize others' posts.

I never claimed that such documents are readily available to members of the public. I simply explained why legislators and executive branch officials are held to different standards in this regard.

Howard Dean likely knows this and, thus, has not raised this issue because he knows it's a bogus one and that he would look ignorant and ridiculous for making such a claim. Class has nothing to do with it. Dean's class hasn't stopped him from going after the other candidates for all manner of real and perceived transgressions (he certainly doesn't have too much class to call his opponents "Bush-lite" and attack them for their votes on various issues). And, even Bush and Cheney haven't tried to claim that Members of Congress who are seeking Administration records should be required to open up THEIR files since they, too, know that this is a bullshit argument. Are they just too classy to raise such an argument?

It is apparent, given the tenor of some of the posts in DU, Dean shows a better understanding of government and politics - and demonstrates considerably more class - than some of his supporters.

[dsc]

53. It is false to say

as you now have twice, that Dean has records sealed which others do not. And BTW I am the only one who has provided a link to back up my position. Your link is notably absent as is every other person taking you erronious position. Give me a link to back your position up and then and only then can you have any thing like a right to call me ignorant.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

55. where is your link

I want the link stating that those candates have those records available or the converse that Dean has ones which aren't. Every action that Dean has taken is every bit as public as the actions Congressional candidates have taken. He signs his bills on public documents, vetos them on public documents, his schedual is public record. So I want the link.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[molly]

59. Nope - he asked that his records be sealed

for 25 years once he decided to run for president. There are links for this all over the place. As for the very public records of those who serve in Congress, beaconess is correct.

This is a mis-statement - "Every action that Dean has taken is every bit as public as the actions Congressional candidates have taken. He signs his bills on public documents, vetos them on public documents, his schedual is public record."

If it were true, there would be absolutely NO REASON for sealed records.

[dsc]

60. Then show me the memos

You keep claiming these are public records. Then where the fuck are they? Where are Kerry's memos to his staff? Where are Kerry's letters to his consitutents? That is what Dean sealed.

[molly]

61. Unless you are Howard Dean you have no idea

what he sealed.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. Unless you are John Kerry you have no idea

what he's hiding.

Fun, isn't it?

[DemBones DemBones]

58. Welcome to DU, beaconess!

It's great to have well-informed people join DU! :hi:

[Padraig18]

63. Nice to see this question!

I raised it a few weeks ago, and enjoyed watching the verbal contorions and bizarre feats of 'logic' to the left and right of me. I'm going to pop some popcorn now, and start wading into the thread. :P

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

64. Three weeks now.

And absolutely nothing.



Go figure! :shrug: