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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:09 PM
Original message
Dr. Dean earned my respect
he actually pointed Dennis out and made note of him being the only person to vote agaisnt the Iraq War

highly commendable
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. pre-emptive self-defense
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Well, yes.
But you could tell he meant it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Isn't that the LEAST he could do after stepping on Dennis for a year now?
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 09:13 PM by blm
Dean exaggerated his stance saying he was antiwar when he wasn't and accusing others of being prowar when they weren't. There was ONE person who was antiwar - Dennis Kucinich. There was only one who was prowar - Lieberman. The others fell in between to varying degrees.
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. yes...but i still think i didn't think he would do it
when people do things i didn't expect, and they were nice things, then i commend them :)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. YOu're too kind!
Thank you! :toast:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's really good to know cause I'm
having a "Vegan" Thanksgiving with a whole bunch of Kucinich Supporters! :D
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. hehehe
i am a meat eating Kucinich supporter
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I'm a vegan Dean supporter.
So?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Me, too!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. I'm a former lacto ovo vegitarian
currently *grass fed organic, humanely slaughtered* meat eater for Dean.. he he

I always wonder, is there such a thing as humanely slaughtered :(

Generally we eat meat every other day, but...I just ordered $500 worth of meat from a local farmer so, there goes the soy for a while.

:hi:
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. COOL!
Wish I could get away with that. But in my family, i'm the only non meat eatin liberal sort...
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. I am watching them now
and I was very happy to hear Dean say that. He is almost last on my list because of the way he has mischaracterized other candidates (among other things) but this gave him a boost in my opinion of him. Honesty means a lot, especially in politics, and the fact that he did this makes him look a lot more trustworthy to me. Thank you Dr. Dean. I may send a few bucks your way again.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. He's back in my top 5 because of tonight
It was good to see Dr. Dean giving props to DK. I had lost a lot of respect for him lately, but he's definately risen in my eyes because of that.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
11. I guess Dean musta read my posts here at DU.....
and fixed his statements accordingly.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I thought that
Clark sounded pretty good tonight.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. Needs to court more voters
First he knocks Kucinch to the sidelines for all this time; now it's time to make nice and pick up his voters.

I'll say one thing for Dean, he is absolutely as good as Rove at campaign tactics. He or Joe Trippi, whichever. I don't like Dean, but the truth is, if the other Democrats can't take on Dean's campaign tactics, they won't be able to take on Bush either.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Dean is great at bashing Demoicrats, he has alot of experience with it
while he was aligning with the GOP all those years attacking the progressive Dems in Vermont.

The others have little experience attacking other Democrats and are GREAT fighting against Republicans.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. The "more extreme" environmentalists had a "major problem" with Dean
I think he yielded to "big box developers" = WalMart.

To be quite honest, I don't know the length of "centrist" Dean's not-so-progressive positions; I have not been following the story. I would like to know, however. Is there some succinct way of presenting it? I gather that you have discussed this at length on DU, but can you get me caught up with it?

You can pm me if you don't want this devolving into a DU flame-slug-fest.

If you want a smile, go read the Protest Cheney in Cleveland thread in the DU activism forum . The Plain Dealer reported it well.

He quit his church over the bicycle trail project--that just seems odd to me.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Not just the extreme enviros.
Here's high praise for Dean from the despicable Stephen Moore.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/0...

The Appeal of Howard Dean

by Stephen Moore
09/15/2003, Volume 009, Issue 01

SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.
>>>>>>
"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.

>>>>>>

The media have celebrated Dean's eclectic economic views. The Washington Post gushed on its front page: "As Governor, Dean Was a Fiscal Conservative." Business Week ap-plauds his pro-business credentials. Hammering George W. Bush almost hourly for his big deficits, Dean himself contends he is still an advocate of "fiscal stability" and a leader who will promote a balanced budget . . . "because I balanced my budget every year in Vermont."


>>>>>

But he weathered the storm. Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.

The word Vermonters use most often to describe Dean is "frugal." Coming into office amidst the early 1990s recession, he cut formerly sacrosanct welfare spending to keep the state out of debt. The Cato analysis shows that during Dean's first four years in office, Vermont's budget grew much more slowly than other states'. He cut income tax rates across the board (much as President Bush did). Although he raised overall business taxes, he approved millions of dollars' worth of incentives to lure smoke stacks back into the Green Mountain State. It was during these early years that the head of the state's powerful Progressive party called him "a very right-wing Democrat." And during a time when President Bush has been piling up mountains of debt in Washington and 47 governors face record budget deficits of their own, Dean admirably left Vermont with a $10.4 million surplus when he left office this past January--which would certainly be one of his trump cards against Bush. If Dean were ever elected president, I'm convinced he would be monomaniacal about balancing the budget--though certainly not in ways that would please conservatives.
>>>>>>>


Stephen Moore is president of the Club for Growth and a senior fellow at the Cato Institute.







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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Thanks, I shall study it eom
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Like when losing the Medicare bill - with Kerry's supporter Feinstein
Signing on with the Republicans?

This is the GREAT experience fighting against Republicans? Yeah...right!
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. This is a travesty, I agree
My own Democratic senator from Oregon voted for it too and he almost never comes down on the wrong side of a vote. But I'll tell you what's happening in Oregon where we also have Medicaid waivers like Vermont has. But because of the way they distribute Medicaid, states like Oregon and California don't get as much reimbursement per person. The program is running such deficits that they cut a special medically needy prescription drug program and those people are literally dieing. The Medicare bill would take seniors out of Medicaid and free up that money to pay for the rest of the states' low-income citizens. Seniors are a very large portion of Medicaid costs. If they're in Medicare 100%, where I honestly think they belong, the states will be able to provide alot better Medicaid to the rest of the people. And while what this Medicare bill is doing to these low-income seniors is wrong, we generally fix their problems first. So I see the reason some Senators voted for this.

And Vermont is running massive deficits in their Health Plan too. That's another reason I've worried about Dean as a candidate. The tax ratio in Vermont went up in order to pay for a health plan that continues to run deficits. Not very appealing.

And as for forcing seniors into HMO's, Dean is a big fan of HMO's. I posted an interview yesterday that he gave just a couple of years ago, even after HMO's pulled out of the Vermont Health Plan and Vermont had to redo it as a result. He's still a fan of HMO's, he said; which is exactly what this Medicare bill offers.

I'm seriously considering backing Kucinich. This country is in such a mess.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Umm
Dean left office as of Jan of '02.. Did you check how far back Vermont is running a deficit? As far as I'm concerned, while Dean was in the office, he kept the budget balanced.

Hawkeye-X
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. The Health Plan runs deficits
It has been bailed out by the surpluses, but the Health Plan itself runs deficits.

Here's an interview with the Progressive who ran against Dean in 2000.
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/pollinain...

"Howard Dean will say that we're covering a lot of more people than other states do and there's truth to that. The fact is the program is heavily in a deficit, so we've got an expanded Medicaid program which actually has not cost controls or accountability. So we know now if we don't do something about the way we provide health care to Vermonters we are going to be facing a serious multi-million deficit in our health care programs. And right now there is not plan to address that. We increased the cigarette tax this year to put more money into that, but that's not a sustainable long-term action."

For an example of how Dean manipulates the truth of what he's provided, look at the prescription drug benefit in this 2002 budget. All it does is allows people to buy drugs at the Medicaid rate, an 18% savings. Dean didn't do anything except get a waiver, which alot of states did, and without the federal Medicaid program, there would be nothing to work with. That's the way most of Dean's health plans operate, he takes Medicaid programs and expands on them just a little. And the programs still run state deficits. This is not going to work when Republicans start talking about this next year.

http://www.vtmd.org/LEG&POL/leg-bull0215.html
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Dean left in Jan. 03.
.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. then you must be furious with Dean supporter Jeffords?
Your sanctimonious reach to smear Kerry is noted.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Hmmm...do you keep a list? Am I on the naughty list?
"Your sanctimonious reach to smear Kerry is noted."

Sounds like a threat to me.


Anyhow, I am furious with Jeffords...but Howard Dean doesn't claim leadership in the Senate, but John Kerry does.

His leadership failed in this case.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. The point was a political tactic to smear by association.
That's all. No list.
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I'll be happy you'll be eager to never smear Dean by association...
With supporters who are nasty online....Oooo!!! You mean you already have?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
16. I'm Glad He Changed His Commericial
That earned my...wait, no, he never did. Sorry. Nevermind.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. LOL!
Last night's remark was meaningless.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. I disagree- Not commendable, just a worthless political olive branch
Edited on Tue Nov-25-03 09:42 AM by Tinoire
Dean stole all of the antiwar votes that should have gone to Kucinich by masquerading himself as an anti-war Liberal. Now that the the truth is so obvious that even the most die-hard Dean supporter is seeing this and many are so crest-fallen that they are abandonning Dean to go to the real thing, Dean comes out with this bone.

Are we Liberals so hungry that we should make do with these bones?

If Dean wants to do something truly commendable, let him stand up and say " I was never anti-war, nor was I ever anti-Iraq war". Until then, the good Dr is just trying to do a little damage control by tossing a few bones.

I realize this will be acceptable for most Dems and I won't begrudge them but for me, Dean has been lying from the beginning, stole Dennis' momentum and now throws out a cute bone to Dennis?

This isn't enough. My main complaint, for a long time, has been that the only difference between my Party and Republicans is that Dems throw out bigger crumbs. Here comes Dean with a bone after stripped off all the meat. I'm sorry, it's not enough.

Dr Dean, do something TRULY commendable- admit you were NEVER the Antiwar candidate that your campaign and the media pretended you were.

Until then, you will not regain my respect.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. And double that.
Great post, Tinoire.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
30. "Dean stole all of the antiwar votes"
Bwwwaahhhhahhhahahhhahh'

yeah, he 'stole' the votes alright.

So, when was the election?

p.s. IMHO, your respect isn't needed. No matter what Dean says or does, you will be against him.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. It's actually because of what he says and does
that I am not for him. Not sure you can understand the nuance but it's worth the effort... Another bone you know.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Look , for or against is your choice.
but explain again how he "stole" the votes?

or were you avoiding that?

(and you can stick your condescending nuance comment)
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. While I do agree
with you, I still think it was a good move, the right thing to do. Politically motivated? Probably, but still the right thing to do. Dean is a candidate that I worry about, I do not like him or support him because of what I see as a lack of solid policies, the ability to change quickly and find a "good" reason to do so, well in fact most of the reasons you have for not supporting him. I still felt it was important to recognize this small bit of honesty that he did not have to mention.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. A Life-long Progressive Vs. A Campaign-Long Progressive
Next Dean people will be saying what a lovely VP Kucinich would make.

Public Citizen gives Kerry and Kucinich some of the top marks for progressivism. I'm sure they would love Dean's stump speeches, but what would they say about his tenure in Vermont?
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helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Governing a state vs. being president...
What about Bill Clinton as governor vs. his tenure in the White House. Or Jimmy Carter as governor of Georgia vs. his tenure in the White House.

Both were more conservative in their home states.

An individual state is no more possible to govern exactly like the United States than serving in Congress from an individual state is the same as serving as Majority or Minority Leader or Speaker of the House.

Those who are knowledgeable about government should be able to figure this out.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. I commend you on your observation and...
...in maintaining a positive progressive vision.
You're a credit to your candidate.
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