Dean gets A+ from NRA for a Reason.

[Octafish]

Vermont allows 16-year-olds to carry concealed weapons.

Does New Hampshire know teenagers from Vermont are allowed to carry concealed handguns?

Would anyone in New Hampshire have a problem with that?

How is it reasonable to allow minors to carry concealed weapons, legally?

Is violent crime in Vermont that bad that kids are allowed to carry guns around?

From the Brady site:

CCW Limits

May police limit carrying concealed handguns? NO

State law allows anyone who can buy a gun to carry it loaded and concealed in public. No police permit or police notification is required to carry loaded guns hidden on a person. No training in gun laws or gun safety is required. Vermont is the only state in the country to have such a lax approach to the carrying of loaded, concealed weapons in public.

Sources:

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.asp?state=vt#ccw

http://www.atg.state.vt.us/display.php?pubsec=4&curdoc=109

[La_Serpiente]

1. Maybe it's because

they only had 5 homicides by gunfire the other year (I think it was 2001 or 2000)

[Octafish]

7. I'm in Detroit. I'd give anything for that to be true here...

... and across the country. People have lost their lives here for being:

1. African-American
2. European-American
3. Asian-American
4. Hispanic-American
5. And every other reason...

... that wouldn't have been more than a flipped finger or bust to the nose, if it weren't for a darn gun.

[slackmaster]

19. To what do you attribute the difference between Detroit and Vermont?

Do the differences in gun control laws have anything to do with it?

[SahaleArm]

23. Maybe.

Population density/diversity and socio-economic situations are completely different; it's like comparing Sweden to the US. It has less to do with the law, banning guns won't solve the crime problem in Detroit but I bet adding well paying jobs would.

[slackmaster]

32. Agreed

"...banning guns won't solve the crime problem in Detroit but I bet adding well paying jobs would."

A toast to the post!

:toast:

[Octafish]

94. No. Money does.

And the reason I say money is that money, more than any single thing, determines the path in life a person leads. Money buys good schools, builds strong homes and communities, and creates good jobs. All of those are necessary to create good families, which are the most important part in making good people.

Capital has abandoned Detroit and many of the nation's great inner cities, particularly the minority-populated regions. It may not be an accident. Detroit, for many of its residents, is not much more than an open-air prison — one where the government is not responsible for the "cruel and unusual punishment" life there really is.

Sorry I didn't answer more quickly, slackmaster. I've been looking for this quote that says it better than I can:

"Men are disposed to live honestly, if the means of doing so are
open to them."

— Thomas Jefferson to Francois de deMarbois, 1817

[snoochie]

102. Well put...

are there any inner-city type areas in Vermont?

Has Dean had to deal with any of the issues raised by entrenched poverty and the like?

[blm]

128. great point...Kucinich trumps Dean there.

.

[slackmaster]

2. How much crime in New Hampshire is attributable to...

16-year-old Vermonters carrying concealed weapons?

Would anyone in New Hampshire have a problem with that?

Good question.

How is it reasonable to allow minors to carry concealed weapons, legally?

Apparently it's quite reasonable in Vermont.

Is violent crime in Vermont that bad that kids are allowed to carry guns around?

Vermont has just about the lowest rates of violent crime in the US.

[Octafish]

5. Thanks for the kind reply, slackmaster!

I appreciate responsible behavior with dangerous weapons. Like ideas.

[nocreativename]

20. Bigger question

How much crime is attributable to people carring hand guns in vermont?

As someone out west, I still feel guns are not the problem the lack of education is the problem.

This is one of the reasons I like Dean. I grew up in the rural west, there was a gun in nearly every home. There was one killing in the county that I lived in and it was preformed by a rock not a gun.

Blanket gun laws will never work. There will be hords off people from the enter mountian west who will be pissed off.

[wtmusic]

3. And Dean says states should be allowed to make their own laws

so the law in NY will be different.

Spin, spin, spin.

[wyldwolf]

6. Right! So if a state wants 8 year olds to carry guns... that would be ok!

[slackmaster]

8. Let us know when that happens

Most states allow 16-year-olds to drive cars. Does that pose any less of a risk than allowing them to carry guns?

[wyldwolf]

11. Your illustration aside, with the Dean defenders' reasoning here...

..any state could enact any gun law or lack thereof.

Allow guns in schools? Sure, why not!

[slackmaster]

17. You have the concept of laws bass-ackwards

Guns are by default allowed in schools or anywere else unless a law is passed prohibiting them.

BTW Section 4004 of the Vermont Statutes prohibits guns in schools.

[wyldwolf]

27. Your understanding of the point of this thread is bass-ackwards...

..you're so intent on either defending Dean, or defending weak gun control laws, or both, that you're having difficulty putting this thread into perspective.

So without entering into a debate on the merits or lack thereof of gun control and various laws, let's examine the point of this thread.

It is legal in VT. for 16 year olds to carry concealed weapons.
Howard Dean is in favor of allowing states to set their own gun control laws. So, taken to it's logical conclusion, in a Dean presidency, a state could set a law allowing 8 year olds to carry concealed weapons without any Federal protest.

Without a state law to prohibit it, that 8 year old could carry that gun unto a playground or into a school cafeteria.

You might not have a problem with that, but I do. And I think many pro-gun ownership rights voters would, too.

[slackmaster]

31. OK, thanks for clarifying the points

It is legal in VT. for 16 year olds to carry concealed weapons.

Yes, as long as they are in Vermont and not in a place where concealed weapons are prohibited.

Please note that under federal law a 16-year-old cannot buy any firearm. Minimum age to buy long guns is 18. For handguns it's 21.

Howard Dean is in favor of allowing states to set their own gun control laws.

So he has said.

So, taken to it's logical conclusion, in a Dean presidency, a state could set a law allowing 8 year olds to carry concealed weapons without any Federal protest.

That is no different than the present situation. The same could have been said of any past or present President.

What state or states have proposals to allow 8-year-olds to carry concealed weapons?

Without a state law to prohibit it, that 8 year old could carry that gun unto a playground or into a school cafeteria.

True but academic. All 50 states have laws prohibiting concealed weapons in schools.

You might not have a problem with that, but I do. And I think many pro-gun ownership rights voters would, too.

It's a fantasy.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. That post was just a smackdown. A well-deserved one.

We've devolved to the point where we're "arguing" that Dean's policies will allow 8 year-olds to carry weapons to school.


Remarkable.

[DrFunkenstein]

69. I Think The True Logical Conclusion Is

Fetuses shooting their mothers from the womb. Although Dean would argue that the 2nd amendment says the right to bear arms begins at conception. I will never vote for someone who would let murderous zygotes loose to kill pregnant women. That's just messed up.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

75. You sound like Jeb Bush.

Did the zygote sign a "living will?" (Killing the mother would be killing itself)

I support the right of the zygote to take it's own life.

"You can't keep me locked up in this cell!"

[peaceandjustice]

113. that isn't Dean's position

Dean's position is slightly more nuanced than that; He supports the current federal laws and believes additional gun control should be left to the states.

[LuminousX]

25. Guns in school

Show me a state where that is being proposed?

[wyldwolf]

30. According to Slackmaster, it is already legal ...

...unless a state specifically outlaws it.

Guns are by default allowed in schools or anywere else unless a law is passed prohibiting them.

[slackmaster]

33. Correct

Under our legal system everything that is not specifically prohibited is allowed.

All 50 states have laws prohibiting concealed guns in schools.

[LuminousX]

42. Exactly

No state allows it. So why do we need a federal law mandating something that is already being done? Out of fear one state may go entirely loopy and say "Kindergartners needs to protect themselves; let them carry guns!"

It would never pass.

[KaraokeKarlton]

51. That's Vermont's only state gun law...

It's illegal to take a gun on school property in Vermont.

[no name no slogan]

53. Yes it does

The sole purpose of a gun is to KILL or INJURE its target, no matter what that target may be.

A car, OTOH, can be used to kill or injure somebody or something. However, its most socially acceptable use involves moving people and things from point A to point B.

Under our new Rethug gubnor, we now have a concealed/carry law on the books. And yes, we've already had an incident.

I myself have no problems with people owning guns, although I choose not to own one myself. I grew up in a rural area, where most kids learned how to properly handle a gun at a young age.

HOWEVER, there is litte if any reason for a person to carry a concealed weapon in a civilized society like ours. Doing so does not make one safer and only endagers the rest of us who are unarmed.

There's nothing wrong with a baseline national standard for gun laws. We have them for vehicle emissions, so why not for something that is potentially much more dangerous?

[slackmaster]

78. Do you have any hard data to back up your concern?

"HOWEVER, there is litte if any reason for a person to carry a concealed weapon in a civilized society like ours. Doing so does not make one safer and only endagers the rest of us who are unarmed."

That is an understandable fear, but it has yet to materialize in the nearly to decades that states have been switching from discretionary-issue or no-issue permit systems to shall-issue (right-to-carry). So far there have been no increases in unlawful shootings attributable to people abusing their legally carried firearms. Remember, every state that allows concealed carry except Vermont and Alaska (where no permit is required) have background checks, minimum age requirements, required classes, and other safeguards to ensure that the wrong people do not get permits.

[LuminousX]

15. Show me where that has even been proposed ...

If you can't then all you are doing is using fear as a motivator. You are saying that without a federal law, the people in the states will go all crazy and give guns to 8-year-olds. Are the people in the states that stupid?

I'm curious if Vermont has a law that specifically allows concealed weaponry for 16 year old or if the laws don't specifically prohibit it.

[wyldwolf]

16. Not at all...

I'm saying that with the states being able to have set their own gun control laws - or none at all - it would be just as legal for an 8 year old to have one as a 16 year old - which is already legal in VT.

[LuminousX]

24. That would be incorrect

but thanks for playing.

Show me a state where it is legal for an 8-year old to own a gun. Show me a parent willing to hand over a gun to an 8-year-old? Most young teens who have guns get them from his/her father and have gone through a hunter safety program. I trust them with a gun far more than I trust a 34 year old who just bought one at Guns&Ammo.

[wyldwolf]

29. That isn't the point...

There are many things that are legal that many parents won't let their child do.

If states set gun control laws beyond the scope of the federal government, or in defiance of it, then they could do anything.

It could be entirely legal for an 8 year old to carry a concealed weapon whether parents allow them to or not.

[Egnever]

35. so your real argument isnt against guns. Its against state rights.

Acourding to you unless the federal government writes all laws for everyone the country will just go nuts and make irresponsible laws.

You seem to feel like the only way for people to address thier local situations is to look to the federal government. I finfd this not only laughable but dangerous.

I am personaly for stronger state control of thier own affairs. Not lessening such control.

Wich candidate is runing on a platform of full federal control of all aspects of state goverment again?

your argument sucks IMHO

[slackmaster]

37. Federal law supersedes state law

It is not legal for a state to override federal law with a LESS STRICT state law.

For example, under federal law it is illegal for anyone to possess an unregistered machine gun. It would not be legal for a state to allow people to possess unregistered machine guns.

[wyldwolf]

4. THIS is scary to me...

..and the fact that Dean would allow states to set their own gun control (or no gun control) laws is also frightening.

how long before I get a red herring from someone mentioning Clark?

[Octafish]

9. Yeh. I was reading up on this and surprised no one mentioned it.

Another thread talked about the Brady bill and I discovered Vermont lets teens carry. Incredible. No wonder the NRA gives Dean an A-rating. He's their hero.

[slackmaster]

10. Your post is hyperbolic

It is not possible for a state to have no gun control laws. Federal gun control laws exist, will always exist, and always apply in all states.

A state with no gun control laws of its own (and there are none BTW) would default to federal gun control.

[wtmusic]

12. So Vermont needs the same amount of control as California

Is that what you're implying?

[LuminousX]

26. Because state's can't be trusted, last I heard Texas was training toddlers

in how to fire RPGs.

[slackmaster]

39. I hadn't heard about that one

"last I heard Texas was training toddlers in how to fire RPGs "

Got a cite?

[LuminousX]

46. Yeah, its somewhere in my ass

where I pulled that from. You know, the source for a lot of other pointless and moot speculation that occurs here.

[SahaleArm]

34. Recipricol CCW laws.

This is the biggest problem everyone has missed. Many states, including Washington, have recipricol CCW laws with other states.

Knock yourself out: http://www.packing.org/

[Romulus]

40. the only "problem"

This is the biggest problem everyone has missed. Many states, including Washington, have recipricol CCW laws with other states.

is that not enough states have these agreements. For example, my CCW licenses issued by Florida and Utah are honored by close to 30 total states, but NOT in DC, or my new home, Maryland, where I can't get a MD CCW permit unless I'm (a) rich and connected, or (b) have a "sufficient enough" direct threat against my life from a clearly identified individual. :eyes:

[SahaleArm]

41. Not against CCW.

I'd prefer if it was normalized across the country. Make the minimum age 18 with national CCW reciprocity. It's 18 to vote and join the military so I have no problem with age-limiting handguns. The biggest problem with guns is lack of training on how to handle them.

[rogerashton]

13. I think we need to realize that

the gun control "issue" is not a left-right issue or really a demo-rethug issue but a regional issue.

Where I live, even ultraconservatives tend to favor strict gun control. Where I grew up, lefties have arsenals that would put the Marines to shame.

What else are states for, anyway?

[Radical__Moderate]

14. to answer yor question

Does New Hampshire know teenagers from Vermont are allowed to carry concealed handguns?

Yes we do.

Would anyone in New Hampshire have a problem with that?

We generally dont have much of a problem with Vermont Teenagers up in these parts. Sure there was that murder of the Dartmouth Professors, but that was done with knives. If they couldn't get knives they would have used a Bat or a 2X4. Should we make those illegal as well?

Now what is a problem in New Hampshire is not Vermont teenagers with guns, Its Massachusetts adults with Cars. Have you ever seen someone from Massachusetts drive? Now thats scary and dangerous?

Where does Dean stand on allowing Massholes to drive in other States? I am certain more folks have died up here from over agressive driving then by guns.

Now dont get me wrong- I am all for gun Licenses, But please dont assume people from New Hampshire are afraid of Vermont teenagers.

[slackmaster]

18. Please clarify a point of New Hampshire law for everyone

Is it legal for a 16-year-old Vermont resident to carry a concealed firearm in New Hampshire?

[SahaleArm]

36. The answer...

is here: http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/new+hampshire

[slackmaster]

38. Thank you

New Hampshire does honor concealed weapons permits from some other states. Vermont is not listed and Vermont does not issue concealed weapons permits, so according to that source it would not be legal for a Vermonter to carry in New Hampshire unless he or she got a non-resident permit issued by New Hampshire.

[maxanne]

45. We're in bigger danger

from drunken hunters from Massachusetts, who come up here and shoot our pets. :eyes:

I have yet to have a problem with a Vermont teen with a gun. I do see Vermont teens on a regular basis in the DUI classes I teach.

Radical_Moderate - maybe we can get Dean to address the issue of Massachusetts drivers...;-)

Octafish - you're really clutching at alarmist straws. What's next, a multi-color DEAN alert?

[Octafish]

81. Teens carrying concealed weapons is not "clutching at straws."

It's a fit subject for discussion when the law's main proponent as governor is now running for President.

Thank you for your interesting take on drunken teenagers in your DUI class. I wasn't aware Vermont had a serious teen drinking problem.

I did know Dean's son was arrested trying to steal alcohol from a country club he and some friends had broken into.

PS: Yes, I know Dean's boy was not inside the building. He was the getaway driver. Good thing he wasn't carrying a gun. He wasn't, was he?

[killbotfactory]

21. And their crime rate has skyrocketted!

Proof guns should be banned.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1017-02.htm

[redqueen]

22. Thanks for airing this now...

so we can defuse any Repug dirty tricks later... notice this little item and you'll note it's probably not going to work against Dean. It's a bit old, but if there hasn't been anything since then this is a non-issue:

School shooting in Canada, wave of "copy-cat" threats in US follow Columbine tragedy

"Meanwhile in the days following the April 20 shootings at Columbine High School a wave of real and imagined violence has swept though school districts throughout the US. Reports of "copy-cat" threats came from every state in the nation, except Vermont."


Edited to air 'other side' - it's a bit older, but you can expect everything will be aired if he's the nominee.

AFTER THE SCHOOL SHOOTINGS: STATES GIVEN "BACK TO SCHOOL" GRADES
For Immediate Release:
9/4/1998

"Vermont -- D-minus

6 firearms deaths for children and teenagers for 1995

carrying concealed weapons allowed
no child access prevention law
no local rights"

[Frangible]

43. Lol, that's so f'd up

Vermont gets a D- and California gets an A... nevermind the fact that CHILDREN ARE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE SAFER IN VERMONT.

Talk about being totally disconnected from reality.

It's exactly the same as saying Chernobyl is safer than US nuclear reactors because the Chernobyl plant operators agree with a few of your political views.

[SahaleArm]

44. And the reason...

why children are safer in Vermont than in Cali has nothing to do with guns.

[David__77]

28. Good for him!

nothing wrong with that...

[Egnever]

47. Yep cause he is right!

I agree 100% that state should adress thier own gun control laws to reflect thier particular needs

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. Kerry on guns:

Increased Gun Safety: John Kerry is a gun owner and hunter, and he believes that law-abiding American adults have the right to own guns. But like all of our rights, gun rights come with responsibilities, and those rights allow for reasonable restrictions to keep guns out of the wrong hands. John Kerry strongly supports all of the federal gun laws on the books, and he would take steps to ensure that they are vigorously enforced, cracking down hard on the gun runners, corrupt dealers, straw buyers, and thieves that are putting guns into the hands of criminals in the first place. He will also close the gun show loophole, which is allowing criminals to get access to guns at gun shows without background checks, fix the background check system, which is in a serious state of disrepair, and require that all handguns be sold with a child safety lock.
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/crime.html

And Dean:

I believe the federal gun laws we have -- like the Brady Bill -- are important, and I would veto any attempt to repeal or gut them. The Assault Weapons Ban expires next year, and it should be renewed. Although President Bush has claimed he supports renewing it, he is talking out both sides of his mouth; his staff has signaled that he doesn’t want or expect Congress to renew the ban, and that is wrong.

I don’t think we need a lot of new federal laws. But we do need to do a few things at the federal level, like requiring Insta-Check on all retail and gun show sales. We also must do a better job of enforcing the laws on the books. President Bush promised to be tough in enforcing gun laws, but his Administration has prosecuted only about 2% of all gun crimes and they are virtually ignoring 20 of the 22 major federal gun laws on the books. That is an abysmal record, and as President, I’d make tough enforcement a reality, not just political rhetoric.



A closer look reveals virtually no difference. Kerry looks at it as a Federal issue and Dean as a State's issue. That's the difference. I guess it depends on whether you feel you are best represented at the local level or the national level. :shrug: One size does not necessarily fit all.

[KaraokeKarlton]

50. Dean understands rural America, that's why

And NH doesn't care about gun control. Both NH and Vermont are big on hunting. By all means, have your candidate go to NH and talk about gun control and see how quick they drop down to nothing in the polls.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

57. I've got family in your state. I'm not "slagging" anybody.

My concern is that Howard Dean has the support of the NRA, which may be good for rural gun-loving New England, but it may not be good for the rest of America.

Wanna know what else is important? Ho-Ho may be able to balance the budget of Vermont, but he isn't going to have a clue as to how to do it in Washington*. Same goes for the rest of the problems facing "citified" America, which, last I checked and if you throw in the suburbs, accounts for about 90-percent of the population.

*That is, if he gets the nomination. And if he gets elected.

[dsc]

58. Rural America

is still around 1/4 of the population not the 10% you are claiming.

[Octafish]

I stand corrected.

To show you I can take being wrong, I won't even edit my egregious error in the first post.

BTW: Give me a link.

[dsc]

85. Here you go. It is from 1990 but I was within 0.2%

Urban Rural
Current urban definition:
1990 (Apr. 1) 75.2 (urban) 24.8 (rural)

www.census.gov/population/censusdata/table-4.pdf

You need a adobe reader and you will want to magnify. Data is from first line.

[Octafish]

93. "A good reckoner needs no tally." — The Tao

... and off the top of your head! Thanks, dsc!

More of the excellent Tao translation by Gia Fu Feng and Jane English at:

http://www.daily-tao.com/

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

62. Pointing out teenagers can carry concealed weapons is not "bashing."

Sorry if you don't feel that way. I'm also sorry if you think my sole purpose on DU is to bash the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker.

My purpose on DU is to help defeat the BFEE. Dean, regardless of his true intentions, will act as an enabler of that criminal enterprise if he is the nominee. This is partly due to inexperience and partly due to his character.

You don't think so? I've no problem with that perspective. I've never posted anything mocking you, New Hampshire, or your rural mindset.

[KaraokeKarlton]

72. So the hell what?

As any parent in a state big on hunting will tell you, it's much better to teach kids how to respect guns and handle them responsibly than it is to try to shelter them from guns. It's not the Vermont 16 year olds who accidentally shoot themselves or someone else. They aren't the ones going into their schools and blowing holes through everyone they see. Do some damn research. Shootings by kids here are rare. There's only been one case of murder by Vermont teenagers in recent years that I'm aware of and they used a knife, not a gun and they were over 16 if I recall correctly.

[Pez]

73. lax laws enable those from out of state to obtain weapons...

...and carry them across boarders.

[KaraokeKarlton]

97. And if anyone wants a gun bad enough to do that

NO amount of gun control laws are going to stop them. People who use guns to commit crimes DON'T obtain them legally anyhow.

[snoochie]

103. Are you sure about that?

Isn't some of the legislation trying to tighten up control of handgun trade based on this exact issue (buying a bunch and transporting across state lines to sell them elsewhere -- usually to people in urban areas)?

[KaraokeKarlton]

104. Am I sure anyone who wants to use a gun in crime will find one?

Damn straight, I am. No amount of gun laws are going to keep guns out of the hands of criminals if they want them. You could ban guns and it wouldn't stop them from getting them. People will just smuggle them in from other countries like they already do and sell them on the black market. Gun laws don't do diddly squat to stop violent crime. If someone wants to hurt or kill someone they will just use whatever is available to do it. If I were going to be murdered I would much rather be killed by one gunshot than to be buthered with a knife or bludgeoned to death with a brick. But hey, that's just me.

[snoochie]

105. So you're saying that since people break laws why make them?

:wtf:

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

79. No idea about how many Vermont teens committed gun crime.

My point was the law in Vermont allows teenagers to carry concealed weapons, including handguns. Here's some more of my "earnest push to give (you) the truth":

Guns in the hands of teenagers may not be a problem in your house or your state, but they are in mine. Dean has zero concept of what the problem is like in Detroit or Chicago or Los Angeles or how to even approach it. In an interesting choice of words, the ex-governor says it's a matter of "states' rights."

Gee. Dean's positions on guns and teenagers are closer to those of the NRA and Dixie and the GOP than the Democratic Party.

A political question for you: Why would a gun owner who's already voted for Bush want to switch and vote for someone who's like Bush? Why not keep the real thing? Why settle for Bush-lite?

[slackmaster]

82. Question about teens and guns and gun laws, and a response

Given that it's illegal for a 16-year-old Vermonter to carry a concealed handgun into any other state, do you think that if the minimum age for carrying a concealed weapon in Vermont was raised to 18 (or 21 or 25 or 45) that it would be less likely that said Vermont teenager would illegally transport a gun into another state?

A political question for you: Why would a gun owner who's already voted for Bush want to switch and vote for someone who's like Bush? Why not keep the real thing? Why settle for Bush-lite?

Because some gun owners who voted for Bush are Democrats and would rather vote for a pro-gun Democrat than for any Republican.

[Octafish]

83. Yes, 18 y.o.a. is the age of majority.

At age 18, a person is considered an adult and is held to the same responsibilities as all other adults. He or she would then be fully responsible for following the law in whatever state they visit.

Gun ownership is a right guaranteed in the US Constitution. I have no problem with law-abiding citizens who own guns. While it's just my opinion, there are more pressing reasons for Democrats to vote for a Democrat than just overcoming an instinct to support a pro-gun GOP candidate. Social Security, public education, the environment, the economy, the national defense...

[KaraokeKarlton]

71. Lame

The NRA isn't sending out letters telling anyone to vote for Dean. He has the A rating because he never pushed for gun control in Vermont. Vermont doesn't need gun control. Dean also understands how important hunting and gun rights are to the people he was serving. That's why he has the position he does and you don't see Bernie Sanders touting gun control in Vermont, either. I guess he's really Newt Gingrich and Charlton Heston because he doesn't push for gun control in Vermont. Hell, Bernie Sanders might have an A rating too! :eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

70. Absolutely, especially when they don't know what they're talking about

If some of these Kerry supporters really understood NH they would realize that, neighbor or not, Kerry can't win there. He's too liberal and wimpy acting. He doesn't talk tough. NH loves the tough talkers and scrappy politicians. The second NH voters hear any of the other campaigns whining about Dean's gun stance and the mention of gun control Dean's poll numbers will go up even more and those who criticized him will plummet. NH and Vermont both love their guns and hunting.

Most urban people are just clueless about how things are in rural areas.

[maxanne]

77. a whole lot of people

on this board dismiss VT and NH as unimportant, small states, full of white people, without enough electoral votes to matter.

BUT - when they want to bash a candidate, suddenly we matter. :eyes:

Good to see you, Karlton. I've gotta head on out to the outhouse.

[KaraokeKarlton]

98. lol

have a nice hike to the outhouse, maxanne. Don't forget to take your Uzi in case you see a coyote, black bear or a fisher cat! :D

[slackmaster]

101. Is that outhouse a one-holer or a two-holer?

:D

[maxanne]

111. two

we like to make a party of evacuatin' our bowels, since we never learned us no better out here in redneck country. ;-)

[RetroLounge]

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[RUMMYisFROSTED]

54. DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN (You missed one!)

The missing link!

[Octafish]

60. Q: Why does the media give Ho-Ho a free ride?

A: Because he is the EASIEST candidate for Bush to beat.

Thanks for reminding me RetroLounge and RUMMYisFROSTED!

Is Howard Dean the Crypto-Republican Candidate?

By Norman D. Livergood

Why is the Republican-owned media giving Howard Dean multi-million dollar media attention? That's the question no one's asking.

Dean made the covers of both Time and Newsweek, was interviewed by Larry King, was the subject of a US News Special, and receives continuing major coverage on all the "news" channels: MSNBC, CNN, and Fox.

Even Dean's campaign manager, Joe Trippi, appeared on CNBC's Capital Report, was interviewed on Fox News' Fox Facts, and was interviewed on CNN's Inside Politics--all in July, 2003. Why is Dean the only Democratic candidate to be given this kind of coverage?

The Republicans and their media hirelings would have us believe that they're giving Dean the spotlight because he's an Internet phenomenon, that he's the leading Democratic contender, and because he represents the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" (a line Dean stole from the late Senator Paul Wellstone). None of the media's claims are true.

CONTINUED...

http://www.hermes-press.com/HDean/dean_republican.htm

[RevolutionStartsNow]

68. The media are bandwagon jumpers!

And Howard Dean's bandwagon is rolling along!

Seriously, I don't think he's gotten a "free ride", but he has gotten tons of press. I think the media just loves a good story, and here's this insurgent candidate who no one thought would have a chance.

He's been hot with the media ever since his huge push at the end of Q2. It's just a great story. I remember when the media was questioning whether he could raise any money...

[LuminousX]

74. Dean and the Media

The Dean campaign has done it right. They have outlined an interesting story for the media to follow. They've given the media a narrative, a hook on which they can hang every poltical report regarding Dean. It makes covering Dean easier and thus more press.

[killbotfactory]

126. Free ride = Months of being called unelectable, too liberal, McGovern, etc

Dean's ride was earned, goddamnit.

[dsc]

56. To those who argue that it is only federal gun control

which would prevent states from permitting 8 year olds to carry concealed weapons or to permit guns at school are you in favor of a national driving age? How about a national drinking age? Or a national age to serve on juries? I mean after all the states may decide tomorrow that 2 year olds should drive or that kindergardeners should be jurors. We can't have that.

[Thomas Jefferson]

61. Those 16 year olds could have a lot of fun shooting up their high schools.

Way to go, Dean.

[dsc]

63. Please find one, just one, example

where a 16 year old shot up a Vermont high school or where a 16 year old who got his or her gun in Vermont did so.

[SEAburb]

84. So, someone needs to die first, before the law is wrong

I hate to break this news to you, but teenagers in VT are the same as teenagers in Littleton,CO and Springfield,OR.

[slackmaster]

87. Vermont law already prohibits concealed weapons in schools

If a 16-year-old was inclined to break THAT law (section 4004 of the Vermont Statutes IIRC); someone who had already decided to commit a violent crime, what would be the use of making it super extra double illegal for him or her to carry a concealed weapon into a school? The Columbine HS shooters violated dozens of laws.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Octafish]

64. And that, TJ, is the point.

I appreciate your understanding of why this is important to consider. Watching "Bowling for Columbine" made up my mind not to fall for the "'Guns' is the answer to my fear!" mentality. I'm still not sure why I am so surprised to discover that so many Democrats have their priorities skewed.

[killbotfactory]

86. It can happen in any state, you know

Laws against guns in schools don't put up magic barriers that stop kids from breaking the law and bringing in guns.

[SEAburb]

89. Are you saying, we should just make it easier then.?nt

zzzzzz

[slackmaster]

90. How does VT's law on concealed weapons make it any easier???

Anyone who wants to sneak a gun into a school has merely to drop it into a pocket and walk in. Whether or not it was technically legal to do that before entering the school grounds has no bearing on the relative ease of doing so.

[dsc]

91. It makes them invisible

and makes parents want to give the guns to them. Don't you see that?

[slackmaster]

92. Ah, now it makes perfect sense

Thanks!

:freak:

[VermontDem2004]

115. Those 20 year olds can have alot of fun shooting up 7-11 Store Clerks.

Way to go, Governors.

[JohnKleeb]

117. Would you be able to bring these guns to class

:puke: I hope not. I am 16 myself.

[VermontDem2004]

122. Probaly not

Policemen at my old school were the only ones allowed to carry guns on campus.

[JohnKleeb]

125. Yea I should hope not

We arent either, btw did you like get your GED or something, I am in school, not now though I am kinda sick and got a day off.

[Pez]

65. nra lobbyists are successful:

vermont gun (non)laws

Anti-Trafficking
Is there a one-handgun-per-month limit on gun sales? NO

No state restrictions on gun-trafficking such as a limit on the number of handguns that can be purchased at one time. Gun traffickers can easily buy large quantities of handguns at gun stores and resell them on the street to criminals.

Gun Show Checks
Are background checks required at gun shows? NO

No state requirement that a Brady criminal background check be done on people buying guns at gun shows if they are sold by "private" individuals or gun "collectors." Gun shows can operate on a "no questions asked, cash-and-carry" basis, making it easy for criminals and even juveniles to buy as many guns as they want at gun shows, including assault weapons. No records are required to be kept on gun show sales by private individuals or gun collectors, making it almost impossible for police to trace such weapons if they are used in a crime.

Record Keeping
May police maintain gun sale records? NO

State law forbids police from keeping any record of gun sales. Police are prohibited from maintaining gun sale records that could be used for gun tracing and criminal investigations. The state has no way of knowing whether people who bought guns in the past have become criminals and are no longer allowed to possess firearms. The lack of gun sale records also makes it very difficult to identify and prosecute gun traffickers or gang members that buy guns in bulk and resell them on the street.

Saturday Night Specials
Are there limitations on 'junk' handguns? NO

No state restriction on the sale of Saturday night specials or "junk" handguns. No requirement that handguns meet any safety tests such as a drop-safety test or a firing-performance test. No restriction on the sale of snub-nosed handguns that are very small and easy to conceal.

Secondary Sales
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? NO

No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check


enabling criminals to buy guns in one state and bring them into another to commit crimes.

[Octafish]

66. Sad that Ashcroft feels the same way about terrorists' gun rights.

The self-righteous turd Ashcan wants to destroy the Bill of Rights, except the gun parts — even for terrorists. From 2002:

Firearms terrorizing:
Stronger gun controls could halt foes like sniper

Cynthia Tucker, Editorial Editor, Atlanta Journal-Constitution

EXCERPT...

If every gun were fired before it was sold and a record kept of the marks it made on bullets or shell casings, law enforcement agencies would have a registry that they could use to compare to bullets or casings found at the scene of a crime. If such a registry existed, for rifles as well as handguns, it would greatly aid the search for the Washington-area sniper. But the gun lobby is already gearing up to fight proposals for such a registry.

They will probably get help in that effort from the nation's highest-ranking law enforcement officer, Attorney General John Ashcroft. Ashcroft is such a faithful acolyte of Second Amendment absolutism that he refused to allow FBI agents to search through records of gun sales earlier this year to see whether any firearms had been purchased by terrorist suspects. While Ashcroft has shown precious little respect for other provisions of the Bill of Rights, the prospect of searching through records of gun purchases offended him. It would have violated the privacy of gun buyers, he said.

CONTINUED...

http://www.uab.edu/icrc/guncontrol.htm

[Pez]

67. the nra work hard to get what they want...

all that $$$ and posturing aren't wasted on those who share their views... or who respond/don't care/aren't concerned.

[DocSavage]

80. Cynthia Tucker

knows squat about guns. Go to the gun dungeon and suggest ballistic fingerprinting. After you are schooled by gun owners about the foolish idea, you may change your views.

As far as the NRA supporting Dean, which is what I thought the tread was about, so what. The NRA is an orgaization composed of gun owners, The NRA is the voice of the gun owners. In my mind, there is absolutly no difference between the NRA supporting a candidate and the Teamsters supporting a candidate. Each orgainzation has its own best interest at heart. If a candidate supports the views of the members of an organization, they they get the support.

In my opinion, it would behove some of our candidates to moderate thier gun control views. The repugs have done a very good job alienating the gun owners from the democratic party. There is a huge voting block in rural america that have guns and believe that gun owership is a "God Given Right"! Even the suggestion that gun ownership should be abolished sends them into the hands of the repugs faster than a .50 cal round.

[mandyky]

95. Isn't NH almost as rural as VT?

And don't they have a lot of independents?
I don't think Granite staters would be all that upset by this revelation. In NY, I think 16 year olds can get hunting licenses, but we hunted with rifles and shotguns, not handguns.
I think the Brady folks are over the edge on this issue.

[Mass_Liberal]

96. I am more than willing to trade gun control

for universal healthcare and bush the hell out of the oval office.


Peace:kick:

[Vis Numar]

99. Hi

"Dean gets A+ from NRA for a Reason"

Right he does-- so we can win WV, OH, and MO this time!

[Octafish]

108. Hope you're right, Vis Numar!

To win WV, OH, MO and other "pro-gun" red states will take more than a pro-gun plank.

[Loyal]

100. Gun control freaks are it again.

Look what gun control has done for D.C. You can't own a handgun there, and look what has happened. Ridiculously high crime rate, tons of murders, it's just brilliant! :eyes:

[alexwcovington]

106. The gun laws just create an inequality

The average joe isn't allowed to have a gun for protection against the criminals for whom the legal concerns of having a gun are not a problem.

[WillyBrandt]

107. Gun control freaks?

Most Americans are in favor of gun control. We have a far higher murder rate than every other industrialized nation, and it's because of the profusion of guns.

Using DC as an example is so stupid. What good does gun control in DC do when it is bordered by Va and Md. We need federal gun control, not namby-pampy "states rights'" gun control.

I know that isn't on the NRA talking points, so sorry about that...

[DocSavage]

110. While we are at it, just junk the rest of the constitution

Namby-Pamby States rights? Lets not let that little piece of paper get in the way. Just think of all the other things that the states can loose. Tax laws, abortion laws, public access to lakes and rivers. Hell, I know that I trust the govt. to know best and to make the best laws. Heck, would't it be a lot easier to compramise on laws if there were only 1 congressman from each state. I know that I really don't need all that representation in washington.

[Romulus]

127. drug control freaks

would have you believe that criminalizing drug production & sale in the US will therefore end the ability of Americans to purchase illegal drugs from inside the U.S.

Yeah, that's really worked wonders.
:eyes:

I know that wasn't in the BanHandgunsNow.com talking points, so sorry about that. . . :eyes:

[stickdog]

109. How reasonable is it to have laws that protect against

nonexistent crimes?

Of course, Ashcroft and Clark's Axciom Corp would strongly disagree.

[Scott Lee]

112. Just makes me like Dean even more

So Dean's state (which I grew up in, by the way) is lax on concealed carry.

Good!

I swear to the Gods some of you folks better learn to get over your fear of being armed. With the way things are going, you'd best not be shucking off that knowledge so piously. Remember that your opponents WILL be armed.

[VermontDem2004]

114. oh no 16 year olds with guns!!!!

As far as I know, the numbers of handgun murders are prodimently adults. I get tired of this responsibility crap, adults can be just as irresponsible and 16 year olds can be just as responsible. Go Dean!!!

[JohnKleeb]

116. Look I am your age

Thats true adults can be just as irresponsible but I tell you this, honest to god I would be kinda scared, yeah I am kinda a puss admittingly but not really, ok I just really wouldnt feel comfortable with the thought that someone had a gun in their pocket. I know I sound like a puss but I am not, I dont like the idea of people our age or any age for that matter walking around with guns concealed. May sound weird, but I wouldnt feel comfortable with someone near by with a gun of any age. Just my opinion others may disagree with me, but christ something about guns that makes me not like them.

[VermontDem2004]

118. I would be scared by ANYone who has a gun in their pocket

Some of them are responsible some of them are irresponsible, it has nothing to do with age, if I had a gun I wouldn't shoot anyone unless they shot at me. I get tired of this, people under 21 can't drink because they are irresponsible, but in every city there are atleast 10 DUI arrests and alot of them are over 40, now who is the irresponsible one?

[JohnKleeb]

119. course

The overaged are irresponsible. I dunno, just something about guns gets to me. I wouldnt carry one if I legally could. I think what it is with me and guns, is the carnage and shit they cause and my uncle.

[VermontDem2004]

120. I can understand that

I am usually scared when I am around guns or people with guns but someone even pulled a gun on me and I wasn't scared, I just had a feeling he wasn't going to do nothing. He was just backing away to his truck pointing his gun.

[JohnKleeb]

121. Youre talking to a guy who is afraid of roller coasters and talking to

people a lot. I know, I am just a puss lol.

[VermontDem2004]

123. lol roller coasters?

I am scared when I am on that but nearly afraid to go on them, the scariest ride I ever been on was the roller coaster on top of the Stratosphere in Las Vegas, it was not even a ride that jerks you around or takes you upside down, but the fact that the rail the coaster I was riding on was 1,450 feet above ground. I just kept praying that the rail wouldn't brake because that would be one hell of a fall. You could never ever make me go on that ride again.

[JohnKleeb]

124. Yeah dude

Funny story of why that is. Ya see when I was 4 I had this dream that I went on this rainbow ride and I thought it was gonna be fun, well you see I didnt get the memo that I had dreamed it, and then I finally realized it when I was ummm 13. Yeah I am a class A puss.