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jeffreys14b Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 01:42 PM
Original message
Dean will win middle ground voters - a speculation
Dean will win middle ground voters, independents and Republicans; therefore, he has the best chance of winning vs Bush* in 2004.

I am undecided, but I've become annoyed reading media commentaries (most recently in the atlantic monthly www.theatlantic.com ) that say Dean cannot win. Bullshit! I'm thinking back to my own response to John McCain's insurgent bid for the Republican nomination in 2000 -- I wanted to cross party lines and vote for him, which makes sense in Nebraska. I know others felt the same way. Here's why: he was passionate about doing the right thing, campaign finance reform; he was bucking his party's establishment and their entaglements; he looked good, connected with people, and spoke elequently; he seemed genuinely interested in the public good over private interest. I feel Dean is in a similiar position. Because he's not an annointed, officially approved candidate, Republicans and independents will feel free to vote for him. He has vision, passion, conviction, and moderation that will appeal to so many even if their ideology is different.

Thanks for reading. What are your thoughts?
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. The big difference between McCain and Dean...
...is that I think Dean will win.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. McCain didn't have a system in place to channel voters
anger and enthusiasm into constructive team building exercises that would have helped his campaign. McCain was a military man and thought like that. Political campaigning was like war.

Dean is a doctor, so it was probably intuitive to him to do so. The Meetups were a brilliant idea. I know that it was Trippi, but I'm sure that their usage fits Dean's philosophy.
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sfecap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not "will"...but "is"...
I have talked with a number of Independants and moderate republicans who support Howard Dean.

He will beat *.
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Woodstock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-03 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. Same here, he's going over well with moderates
but the nice thing is, the left likes him, too.

He will beat the shrub is he is the nominee.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Interesting analysis.





"Of the two candidates who did not support the war, Howard Dean would lose to Bush his supporters must face political reality. As for Bob Graham, vehement as he has been about the Administration's subversion of democracy, he is a U.S. senator, and in the last hundred years Americans have elected only two senators. To be sure, they have elected only one General during that time. But if you ask which candidate Bush would least like to run against, the answer has to be General Wesley Clark. "

*****

Still, I think WMD-gate innoculates the candidates who voted for the war. The misadminstration LIED, HYPED, SPUN, TWISTED the intelligence. That division among the Dems in now off the table.

I agree that Dean cannot win against Bush (I don't think he'll win the nomination).

Clark is a very compelling candidate, no denying that.

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jeffreys14b Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. grassroots campaigns work?
I agree, Chimpymustgo, about Clark. He's a compelling candidate and I think the ideal VP.

But about Dean getting the nomination, I'm interested in knowing why you think he can't get there. Recent experiences suggest to me he is the top candidate. At the recent GLBT Pride event in Omaha, for example, the state party had a staffed booth; while the party makes no endorsement, the majority of volunteers wore Dean for America shirts and several of his supporters tried pinning Dean stickers on me and making his case. In fact, they were everywhere putting stickers on the overwhelming Democratic crowd and making his case to them as well. My point is, I'm not sure we should underestimate the power of the word of mouth, voter to voter activity Dean has stirred up. If I ignore the polls, he looks to me like the leader.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Indeed
I know it's early, but Dean is everywhere, not just on the internet. The grassroots work of his supporters -- getting his name out there -- is working, and Trippi is running a brilliant campaign, getting his name in the press and causing other candidates to follow his lead.

This is a smart, smart campaign. I know this is no guarantee of winning, but it's going to be a fun race.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Dean's is a VERY smart campaign. I've always watched the 'campaign'
to determine the strength and intelligence of the candidate. Dean is a tornado and a brilliant strategist but most importantly he's a screaming good mathematician!!

Dean '04...Adding it up!

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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. McCain Endorses Kerry, Actually
WASHINGTON - GOP maverick Sen. John McCain, whose breezy straight-talking style ignited the 2000 White House race, predicts Sen. John Kerry could rekindle the same campaign magic this time around.

``He certainly can,'' McCain (R-Ariz.) said in a telephone interview with the Herald from Arizona.

``He's smart, he's tough and he's experienced. He has the capability.''

McCain, meanwhile, was skeptical that upstart Democrat Howard Dean, who considers himself the McCain of the 2004 race, could ultimately show wide political appeal.

``He is coming out of a kind of antiestablishment role that clearly resonates with some voters,'' said McCain. ``But I don't know if that can play with the broader electorate, the American public.''

Kerry and McCain, both decorated Vietnam veterans, forged a friendship working on the POW-MIA issue several years ago.

McCain said he would not be surprised if political foes and the press try to pick apart or distort Kerry's combat record.

McCain was victimized by a vicious whispering campaign during the 2000 South Carolina primary alleging he was brainwashed as a POW.

McCain also recalled a Senate hearing on POW-MIAs where a man accused him of being a ``Manchurian Candidate'' manipulated by his Viet Cong captors.

``I was about to lose my temper,'' McCain recalled. ``I felt (Kerry's) hand on my shoulder, and he said, `John, don't dignify it with a response.' He had a cool head.' ''

Kerry calls McCain ``one of the joys of my service in the Senate.''

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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. Loser predicts 'winner'...bit contradictory I'd say.
Dean '04
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DrPepper Donating Member (194 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree
Except for his signing of the gay civil unions bill, Dean is extremely moderate. He may actually start turning off some democrats. But if he can get the nomination, he'll get a ton of moderate republican votes.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think you are right
People in this country seem to like an "outsider" at the helm. I think that was part of the appeal of Carter, Reagan, Clinton, and Bush. I believe they see being a governor as better job preparation than being a senator.

In the 2000 campaign, the TV news programs spent lots of time on undecided voters. Many of these voters were women with children and jobs who did not have time to pay attention to campaign rhetoric. They just voted based on a very general impression of the candidates.

It is my hope that these people will see Bush as unable to make them feel safe because he fumbled on the economy and Iraq.

I hope they will see Dean as a man who will keep them safe via the economy (Vermont is in better shape than almost all states and the federal government) and a sound foreign policy.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Are you safer today than you were four years ago?
When I reread my post, it occurred to me that this question will be at the heart of the next campaign.

Bush has done everything he could to frighten the people in hopes that they will see him as a protector. But he has failed to protect us time and again, not just on the economy, but from violence.
Where is Bin Laden?
Where is Saddam?
Where are the WMD not just of Iraq, but also of North Korea?
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. My Heroes Are FDR and JFK...
How about this for a quote:

"And let me state it plainly: Just as we did not have a viable plan for Iraq after the capture of Baghdad, today we still do not have a real plan and enough resources for preparedness against a terrorist attack.

Americans have a right to ask: Are we safer today than we were in the days after September 11th? Are our nation's firefighters and police officers better prepared to wage the war on terror?

Words, no matter how tough, are not enough. A flight to an aircraft carrier, no matter how well staged, does not end a war. Strong words must be matched by strong actions.

It is time for a President who will face the truth and tell the truth. And that truth is that the Bush Administration has stalled the 9/11 investigations instead of speeding it - forcing us to ask how can we prevent the next attack if we don't really know the facts about the last one?

The truth is the Bush Administration went to war without a plan to win the peace in Iraq - it gave Presidential sanction to misleading information and is still trying to conceal what happened.

And despite all its promises, this Administration has denied first defenders the equipment and support to defend America from danger.

It is clear that a dangerous gap in credibility has developed between President Bush's tough rhetoric and timid policies which don't do nearly enough to protect Americans from danger. It's time we were told the truth about America's safety. It's time we had a President who will truly make this nation more secure."

http://www.johnkerry.com/site/PageServer?pagename=spc_2...
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dofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. As a Dean supporter
I'm convinced he can win in 04, provided that we actually have an honest election process.

I think several other Democrats could also win, if for no other reason than by November next year people will be utterly fed up with Bush and all that's happened under his watch. Which is why an open and honest election will be crucial. They stole it once. I don't trust them not to steal it a second time.

Especially if there are no exit polls, we will have no way of knowing what the real votes will have been. Keep in mind, that the company doing exit polling in 2000 wound up being criticized for showing that Gore had actually won in Florida. That's why there was no exit polling in 02. All the better to cover up fraud and vote manipulation.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. I don't know whether he can win or not
But I will tell you my opinion, as a registered Republican who started hanging around Dem sites when * became President and started wreaking havoc everywhere.

I won't vote for Dean.

I would and will vote for Kerry.

Dean strikes me as too close to Bush, and I can't stand Bush.

BTW, I think y'all need to recognize that Bush is NOT a Republican, not in the sense that most Republicans are. Kerry makes that argument. Kerry can appeal to the middle and conservative voters.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Then you don't really mean
"anyone but Bush" :shrug:

Or are you talking about your vote in the Primary, when you say you won't vote for Dean?
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Yeah, in the primary
is where I exercise my clear choice. Except that I can't do that even here, cuz Colorado has cancelled the primaries for budgetary reasons.

So it's now, while the dialogue is ongoing, that I get to express my preferences.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. I think any one of the 9 will win middle ground voters.
The only ones left holding the bag for * in 04 are the right wing-nuts, regardless of who the dems nominate. Assuming of course, that he doesn't manage to manufacture another crisis to scare america and restore his faux credibility.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
16. Dean is the only one who can get the landslide that might be needed
to overtake the dirty tricks and voting machines.

At this exact point in time, my money is on Dean, even in an unfair fight.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Dean, 67% popular vote...no hype...no surprises...deliberative polling
projectives..

Dean '04... 67%
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Impossible
Edited on Wed Jul-23-03 01:21 AM by Nicholas_J
All polls compparing Bush/ any democratic candidate, have Dean at losing to Bush with the widest gap possible. It will stay that way. Dean is the candidate most likely to lose to Bush.

Nominating Dean guarantees Bush winning in 2004.

As a matter of fact in states like South Carolina Where Dems are SOCIALLY Conservative. Deans passing of the Civil Union Act will cost him the vote. The Democratic vote in South Carolina is largely black (almost 50 percent)


Many blacks are socially conservative, and many distrust government. So too do Republicans, but this doesn't make a happy marriage. Why? Because Republicans tend to distrust the federal government, and exalt local control. Blacks trust the federal government, which, after all, liberated them from slavery, enforced their civil rights during Reconstruction, hired them during the New Deal, and finally got around, in the 1950s and 1960s, to protecting their civil rights against their oppressors, many of whom resided in state and local governments.

http://reason.com/ml/ml011801.shtml

The Southern democrat tends to be totally oposite of Dean, Fiscally Liberal and Socially Conservative.


Graham, by contrast, touts his commitment to rural, so-called NASCAR Democrats, who tend to be more socially conservative than party activists. A Graham campaign aide notes that Florida dwarfs Vermont in just about every challenge of which a governor can conceive.


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/US/deangraham_0...


In South Carolina, where Democrats are considered more socially conservative than the party at large, experts say Lieberman has a chance to make his case to a receptive audience. He has visited the state five times this year, including a stop in Charleston today.

http://www.charleston.net/stories/071603/sta_16lieberma...

Dean will have to do ANOTHER major flip flop on his "Fiscally Conservative" "Socially Liberal" mask in order to have ANY success in the South.

And while Governors have won the predidency many times in the last 30 years, every one was basically a held to a social conservative" fiscally liberal" platform.

Greenberg: While women are generally more Democratic than men, they exhibit important regional differences. The South was a Democratic stronghold until the mid- 1960s when the party's commitment to civil rights legislation and school integration alienated many white Southern voters. While Democratic identification dropped among both Southern white men and women, women still cling to their Democratic loyalty more strongly than men. These women lean Democratic, but they are among the most socially conservative members of the electorate, in part because the South tends to be more religious and evangelical than the rest of the country. In the West, women and men tend to embrace political independence, and Western white women are the least Democratic women in the electorate. Unlike Southern white women, Western white women tend to be libertarian in their outlook. They resist any sort of government intervention in their lives, regarding either sexuality and economics.

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/news/experts/2000/greenberg_...

Dean will lose the south in a big way, and trying to do a flip on his social support of Civil Unions will fry him. His NRA support will not help at all, as most of black southern democrats support STRONG GUN CONTROL.

Dean will not be able to get much trade union support in the midwest either, as again, the trade unions and their membersare also socially conservative, and fiscally liberal( they want a guy who is going to FIGHT business" not favor it.

One of the biggest strongholds for"Reagan Democrats was the south, where the Social Conservatism was more important to them than the Fiscal Liberalism aspect of the candidates.

Southern Blacks especially support social conservatism when it comes to using milirary force to solve international problems.

Dean will have the same problems with Latinos, again socially conservative. probably the most socially conservative democrats of all..............

On social issues, Latino Democrats expressed more conservative values
than their non-Latino white counterparts. Thirty-four percent of
Hispanic Democrats said they believed that divorce was unacceptable,
compared with 13 percent for non-Hispanic white Democrats. Twelve
percent of Latino Democrats said they thought abortion should be legal
in all cases, compared with 26 percent of non-Latino white Democrats who expressed the same belief.

"Latinos born outside the United States, as a group, have particularly
more intense and socially conservative views than those born within thecountry," said Mollyann Brodie, vice president and director of public opinion and media research for the Kaiser Family Foundation.

The poll of 1,329 registered Hispanic voters, 838 non-Hispanic whites
and 136 non-Hispanic African-Americans was conducted by telephone from
April to June and has a margin of error of 3.6 percentage points. It is
part of a broader survey of Latinos in the United States that will be
released in December.

Among those interviewed, 45 percent said they were United States
citizens who were registered to vote. Of those, nearly half called
themselves Democrats, one-fifth said they were Republicans and another
fifth labeled themselves independent.

http://hcs.harvard.edu/~raza/resources/Voters.htm

Dean will have SERIOUS problems with these groups. In the South, the Black Democrats comprise almost half of all Democrats. In the Southwest, Latinos almost exclusively identify with the democratic party, but are very socially conservative. Dean will either have to change his platform entirely to appeal to these groups, deciding to abandon his fiscal conservatism, or abandon his support of Civil Union and other gay issues, ideas on abortion, in order to appeal to this rather large segment of the democratic party, and risk alienating those who ore socially liberal. Either way,Dean is in a lose- lose scenario wih minorities, in particular, and Southern Democrats for the most part.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Nothing's impossible with Dean
:)
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. This will be
Dean will have to become socially conservative, and fiscally liberal in order to appeal to most of the south. Which means abandoning those who were his original supporters. Sorry unlike most doctors who think they are God, there are somethings that are impossible for Dean.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Ah, a clue...
I suspect that Dean being a doctor has something to do with the intense hatred you harbor for "the monster" "petty mediocrity" "tyrant" (your words).

...and please don't post 1000+ words that you've already posted telling us why you hate him, he's anti-environment, hates poor people, loves Walmart, etc...heard it before...



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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. If you will cease to attack other candidates.
I will simply post articles that indicate Deans record without attacking Dean or his supporters personally if this will lend to toning down the agression between supporters of candidates. And leave you to do the same. I
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I have NEVER attacked another candidate.
Never never never. Maybe a slight swipe at Lieberman, but nothing more. I think ALL the Dems are a million times better than Bush.

Sorry I can't control all Dean supporters.

But I've never even heard any of the more agressive Dean supporters use the outrageously hateful terms you've used toward Dean... "monster...evil tyrant...in some ways worse than Bush..." Your vitriole exposes a bias that is more than just political...
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. So will Kerry
Edited on Wed Jul-23-03 02:24 AM by Classical_Liberal
who also supports gay unions, and is a fiscally conservative member of the fiscally conservative dlc.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. The DLC has a fiscally progressive platform.
You should back up that claim with factual posts rather than opinions or Dean campaign information. It was Kerry who wrote the legisltion that created KidCare which allowed Vermont to expand its insurance for chiildren, but it became bi-partisan so that the Republicans could tone down Kerrys very high fiscal support to the states from the federal government. Kerrys plan had the federal government pay for 75 percent of the cost of health care for children, WHen the bill went from Kerry/Kennedy to Kerry Hatch, the republicans knocked that down to 60 percent federal pick up this article is a conservative article criticising the Kerry version:


Issue Analysis 51 - Top Twelve False Claims Made About the Hatch-Kennedy Children's Health Coverage Bill


7. "The fact is that this bill is a far cry from the Kennedy-Kerry bill<.>"9

Hatch-Kennedy is nearly identical to its predecessor, the Kennedy-Kerry bill (S. 2186), introduced in the 104th Congress. Despite minor changes, both bills would create a new entitlement, empower government to buy insurance policies on behalf of children, require new taxes, encourage employers to drop coverage, and impose unfunded financial burdens on the states.

In fact, Hatch-Kennedy imposes greater unfunded financial burdens on states than Kennedy-Kerry. Kennedy-Kerry would have made states responsible for only 25 percent of administrative costs (S. 2186; p.8, lines 1-4, and p.22, lines 16-19). Hatch-Kennedy requires states to contribute 50 percent of administrative costs, 40 percent of their Medicaid contribution and at least 10 percent of the total program costs at all times (p. 16, lines 20-25; p. 17, lines 1-12).


http://www.cse.org/informed/issues_template.php/473.htm

This is the DLC party platform regarding fiscal responsibility:

We believe that fiscal discipline is fundamental to sustained economic growth as well as responsible government.

We believe that a progressive tax system is the only fair way to pay for government.

We believe the Democratic Party's mission is to expand opportunity, not government.

http://www.ndol.org/print.cfm?contentid=1926

When the attempt to institute a progressive system of taxation was called for in order to balcnce the budget in Vermont in 2002 Howard Deans response was:

Progressives call for higher taxes for rich
January 25, 2002

By JACK HOFFMAN

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER Vermont Progressives renewed their call Thursday for higher taxes on the wealthy in order to avoid some of the budget cuts that Gov. Howard Dean outlined earlier this week.

The Progressives, with support of a couple dozen Democrats and one Republican, proposed two new income tax surcharges. Taxes would go up 12.5 percent on taxable income between $43,000 and $158,000. On taxable income above $158,000, taxes would be increased 25 percent.

Taxable income is the amount left after personal exemptions and deductions have been subtracted from wages, business earnings and other types of income.

Currently, Vermonts highest income tax rate is 9.5 percent. That is the rate paid on taxable income above $283,000. Under the plan the Progressives proposed Thursday, the highest Vermont tax rate would be 11.88 percent...

Dean reiterated his opposition to raising the income tax shortly after the Progressives unveiled their tax plan. Dean contends Vermonts marginal income tax rate that is, the top rate paid by those in the highest income brackets already is too high.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41293.htm...

This is the exact same type of taxation called for and supported by the DLC.

Deans stance on progressive taxation is FAR to the right of the DLC.

On budget cuts Dean took the stance:

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Deans proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care.



Medicaid is the state-run program that uses both state and federal money to provide benefits to the poor and disabled. Over the past several years Dean has expanded the programs by allowing participation by Vermonters with incomes higher than the federal guidelines.

Under the proposed budget, about 3,200 elderly or disabled Vermonters who get half the cost of long-term drugs paid for under a program called VScript Expanded would see their benefits disappear. This would save the state nearly $2.5 million. A single Vermonter with an annual income up to $19,332 is currently eligible.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/41169.htm...

Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press

MONTPELIER Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk.

Just hours after an angry Gov. Howard Dean leveled a series of charges about how irresponsible he believed the Senate, controlled by his fellow Democrats, was being, senators did precisely what he warned them not to do.

Even the governors closest allies in the Senate ignored him. Sen. Nancy Chard, D-Windham, recommended restoring $440,000 to one of the pharmaceutical assistance programs and the Senate voted 22-7 to go along with her.

Ive become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate, said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/46513.htm...


Deans actions were lumped together with Republicans by those "CONSERVATIVE" DLC democrats.

They sound more like tax and spend democrats to me. Raise taxes on the rich in order to prevent cutting programs or charging the poor for services types. That does not quite fit the conservative mold.

You cannot fins one case of Dean demanding income tax hiles on the rich, or opposing cuts to the cuts to education social programs that Dean recommended being supported by even ONE of the other candidates or even any of the leadership of the DLC.

But you can find many instances of Dean doing so while he was governor:

The state was in a fiscal crisis at the time, working its way out of the biggest budget deficit in its history. Then-Gov. Richard Snelling had pushed a series of temporary tax increases and budget cuts through the Legislature and Dean took up that austerity plan as his own.

To the anger of more liberal members of his own party, he insisted that the tax increases be rolled back on schedule and then went on to work for additional tax cuts later in his tenure.

By the same token, though, he also supported raising taxes as long as it wasnt the income tax when school funding crises and other issues arose that required it.

Throughout, he held a tight rein on state spending, repeatedly clashing with the Democrats who controlled the Legislature for most of his years as governor.

Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

Dean turned often to the bully pulpit to belittle and berate them.

http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/May2003/May_19/News/re...

Notice, it was not Dean who created the plan that got Vermont out of its 65 million dollar bdget deficit. It was Richard Snelling (a republican) who reoalized the only way to get out of the deficit was to institute a progressive tax system, with three tiers that taxed the rich more highly thna the poor. It was Dena who ended the progressive tax system to institute a mre conservative one.

The DLC is far more Progressive and Liberal than Dean.

It way McGovern, running a campaign very similar to Deans attacking the democratic party as giving in to much to the Republicans (when this was not true. Like Dean, McGovern misrepresented the party's actions in being unable to get Nixon out of Vietnam, attracting the Youth vote, who like those who support Dean, refuse to beleive that COngress has the power to prevent a President from waging war and using force, when they have no such power at all.) Deans actions. similarly will weken the part even more, and to the delight of those neo-conservatives like Grover Norquist will shrink the democratic party's progressive ideals to a size so that the party can be drowned in a bathtub.

Not one of the candidates running for the nomination other than Dean has made cuts to social programs, suggested tax cuts that favored thee wealthy, heavily used taxes like property taxes which hit the poor and middle classes much harder than the rich. But Dean did these things.

It is a joke to support Dean against the DLC by thropwing charges that the DLC is more conservative. Kerry has never suported the kind of program cuts Dean has, which fiscally liberal minority democrats favor. These people will look for the candidates that more closely have followed their socially consevative and fiscally liberal policies. All that is necessary is for a few television news programs that use th words, Dean, cut, and Medicaid in the same sentence, and they will not support Dean. THe other candidates can be said to suport gay rights and civil unions, but Dean actually passed the first such legislation, do his actions will have a great deal more adverse effects than the candidates talk.

They all know that none of the candidates is ideal, but Dena will be viewed as least ideal becasue they will eventually learn what he has DONE and see a disconnect with what he is campaigning on.

The black democrats in the south actually SUPPORT the Iraq Act, as many rural socially conservatve democrats do.

They would prefer the government to run a deficit as long as they can keep their social programs whole, and not beasked to pick up a greater share of the cost, as Dean tried to do.

Especially among black democrats. They are used to presidential candiddates trying to con their vote out of them with promises of 40 acres and a mule. They are usually quite skeptical of campaign talk and want to now what they have done. If the words "Show me the money" apply anywhere it is among minorities who have been on the lower rungs of the economic ladder and cut fewer breaks than the rich.

Having had a black room mate in college just aint enough.











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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. But wait
Civil Unions fell out of the sky. The Supreme Court made him do it. He didn't want them. He is against gays and gay marriage. Kerry is king of gay rights. I know this because you told me so. (sarcasm). Like always you want it all ways. Dean is too liberal to be President in this thread but too conservative to be President in most threads. You can't have this both ways.
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Classical_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Kerry supports civl unions too
so he is no different from Dean in that respect.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. There is no set of arguments too contradictory
for him to use to trash Dean. In every thread on Civil Unions he has consistently stated that Dean was actually cowardly and opposed to CUs and only agreed to them due to the Supreme Court. Now when CUs help make Dean less electable all of the sudden he is the CU candidate while Kerry isn't.
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NewJerseyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-20-03 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm not sure
Dean has come out too strong on how he thinks there are no WMDs in Iraq. He has basically said that Bush lied and even though many people here might agree with him I think that he will have a really hard time convincing moderates of that. Also, if WMDs are found then Dean could come across really badly. I just think that Dean should critisize bush a lot but be careful about how far he goes with it.

Also, I think that Dean has a horrible personality. He seems like he is really mean. Now, I doubt that he really is and I know everyone here will hate me for saying that but I don't like his personality. He just seems like he is too angry and I think that may turn off some moderates.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. I Won't Respond To The Second Part
But I think you may have a point in the beginning. While many Dean fans criticize Kerry for not going all out, there is such a thing as overplaying your hand. By raising the "I" word, for example, Graham has clearly sent out desperation signals.

It is foolish to concentrate so much on Bush's failures to find WMDs, because if he finds even a small amount, he will negate his critics. Dems should focus on Bush's systematic failures to support our troops. Anyone who watched CNN at all knows that the brass was not to happy with Rumsfeld's "blitzkrieg" Doctrine of thin supply lines, little artillery support, and inability to secure Baghdad and the suspected WMD sites. Bush cannot weasel out of that one.

As much as I admire Dean's pull no punches style, sooner or later it is going to catch up with him. Which is why activists don't make good Presidents. I love Howard Zinn, but I know that he would not be the best President.

Believe me, I hope Dean never slips up, and it comes down to him and Kerry in a clean battle of ideas. But I must admit that Dean's style does have it's limitations, and hopefully Dean will realize this as well.
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Dean should, could, would...
Newsflash: He has, he is, and he will...

On all fronts. Name a topic, and Dean has probably taken Bush to the woodshed on it, while at the same time, hitting home runs with his own policy points. This just happens to be the topic-du-jour.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-21-03 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
23. I agree with you. I think Dean can win
not because everyone agrees with every position he takes, but because the guy says what he thinks and goes to the beat of his own drum. That is what people want in politics. I think he will appeal to alot of Independents and also some Republicans who are rightfully outraged by what Bush has done with this economy and the deficit.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. Yet his latest polls in Califorrnia show him appealing more
To liberals than centrists, while Kerry is appealing more to centrists than Dean, which is odd becasue Kerry is politically much further to the left than Dean. Dean is going to have problems as his support lies in age groups of voters who only add up to 40 percent of the democratic population, and Kerry appeals to the Baby Boomers and to the retired far more than Dean does. They graying of America will eventually cause Dean to start to fall behind.

Most of Deans support has been from highly motivated activists who make up their minds early. The older groups tend to wait until there is more media attention on all of the candidates. And in places that they are more likely to get it. Most of the people in the older groups tend to make their decisions from what they see on television, and sometimes in the newspapers, not on the internet and at Meetup.com.

We did out own little poll at the local democratic club at the public library and it is not statistically accurate. But here in Northeast FLorida, Graham cane in ahead, and Kerry next. Most people asked did not know who Howard Dean was. We polled 200 people and gave them info about eacn candidate.Name, state, and political positions held. That was it.

2 people recognized Dean. One said they would vote for him.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. In another thread
you said you had nothing to do with this poll. But actually I believe that, because there was 1 person who still voted for Dean. :)

Also I love the constant "sky is falling" predictions about Dean, turning his momentum into a bad thing..oh, those are all people who make up their minds early! I get it now!
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. What kind of democratic club
doesn't know the candidates yet?
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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. what about the Latvian vote?
these rants would make Spencer Tracy proud!

"I control the Latvian vote, and they will never vote for ...."

bwaaaaaa hahaahahah
18,181 wins again!
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. hello Nic
care to answer?
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LiberalTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
40. Republicans on other boards
DENY that there are any Republicans out there that would support Howard Dean. I've met them, shaken their hands, and talked to them. Partisan Republicans are in DENIAL that places like this exist:
http://republicansfordean.blogspot.com /

I say LET THEM keep themselves in the dark. Dean will blindside them.
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RevolutionStartsNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-03 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. It's interesting
to read and follow the prognostications about Dean. "He can't raise any money" "His support is only on the internet" "He's too liberal" "He's too conservative" "His anti-war stance will doom his campaign" "He can't appeal to a broad public".

So far all he's done is prove the prognosticators wrong. His campaign has been nothing if not surprising, even to those who believed in him from the beginning. He's picked up supporters everywhere he's gone, and is doing very well in many polls, even this early.

I have no doubt that it's a major uphill struggle for Dean -- as an outsider, there's a whole different battle he has to wage -- and I won't be stunned if he doesn't win, but he is paving new roads and bringing so many people into the political process.

Even if Dean doesn't win, he has awakened something in me that will not shut down if he's not the one. Also I think he's brought a whole lot of young people into the process and I'm sure many of them will stay involved in one way or another.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-03 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Well said !
Kudos!
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
43. Dean may win the Gun Owners...
with his impecible gun owners rights resume. He also may have a chance in states like Montana that are growing uncomfortable with the Bushies BIG BROTHER GOVERNMENT agenda.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-29-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
45. I think your right!
Dean is laying his positions out for all to see and not trying to be all things to all people. This sort of honesty is seriously lacking in politics right now and the people are hungry for it!

Dean in 04!
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