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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:14 AM
Original message
Arrows and olive branches
Perhaps it is because I am young and arguably naive, but the one consistent theme that seems to overlay 95% of the posts I have read here at DU in the last two-plus months is anger--- deep, white-hot and poisonous--- an anger that sometimes bursts into actual rage. For example, I see many of my fellow Dean supporters lash out with unrestrained vitriol at any poster who would dare, for whatever reason, suggest that perhaps the good doctor has a character flaw, or has mispoken or 'waffled' on a given issue; others who support different candidates do the same thing when it is their candidate who is in the 'crosshairs'.

Why do you waste your anger in such a foolish manner?

Should we not instead use that anger wisely to attack our true enemies, the crypto-fascist Republicans who have stolen our democracy and cynically attempted to deprive us of our right to be a self-governing nation where the only sovereign is the people themselves? Shouldn't our rage be directed at the corporate oligarchs who corruptly buy influence, and at the traitors in our Congress, legislatures and state capitols who shamelessly pander themselves and the offices they hold to the highest bidders, like common streetwalkers? How can 'we the People' preserve our endangered right to self-governance if we witlessly attack those champions who rally to our banner, merely because we find some alleged 'flaw' in their character that renders them in some manner 'imperfect', or ideologically 'unclean'?

The battle we face will need all the soldiers and generals we can muster, so we must regain our focus and confront our REAL enemy head on; to do this, we must use every weapon in our arsenal, and that includes our anger. We must welcome to our army all who are willing to fight the battle which looms ahead; when we triumph, as we surely must triumph, we can resolve our differences with our allies. We must remember that our righteous anger is our artillery in the coming battle, and in order to make the best use of it we must at all costs avoid the grave mistake of 'friendly fire'. "He who is the enemy of my enemy is my friend" must become our watchword. We are not priests of Ba'al who seek an unblemished sacrificial bull, but sovereign citizens who are demanding that their right to govern themselves be returned; as such, we ill-serve our common cause by attacking those who arm themselves to do battle with our avowed enemy--- the evil GOP bastards who seek to deliver the quietus to our most basic right, that of self-governance.

Let us not be churlish and reject the proffered arms of those who are willing to stand with us, but receive them as comrades in our common struggle.

Thank you. :)
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. damn straight
reserve the invective for the one who REALLY deserves it. BUSH. this is war and we must stick together. together we can win, divided we shall fall

except lieberputz, he has to give up, now.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. JL
Lieberman is 10th out of the 10 running, on my list. :(
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. He will
I doubt he'll humiliate himself by going all the way. I just went to his web site because I'm gathering info for a GOTV project. (Gotta get all of the info out for that.) Anyway, I bet the poor guy can't discuss his working class roots without feeling uncomfortable. I didn't know until just now that his dad worked his way up only to own a liquor store! I really do feel sorry for him, in a way. I know it's got to be torture to know he has a story to rival Edwards and Gep, but he just can't bring himself to tell it. LOL!!!!
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Jonte_1979 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Very good post, Padraig!
Welcome to DU! :toast:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks!
It's my pleasure. :)
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Fascinating if hypocritical post.
Your attack on me was unwarranted, uncalled for and unnecessary, yet you continued it anyway, much like your attack on my candidate.

If this is your effort at extending an olive branch, then I rescidn the above and say welcome, otherwise, I'm left shaking my head in disbelief.

Meanwhile, I have and will continue to defend Dr. Dean and his supporters from unwarranted attacks and smear efforts, even from fellow Kucinich supporters. There is a line that ought not be crossed, imo, and that is respect each other even if we disagree. It's the ONLY way we'll have unity when the nominee is picked.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Shall we start over?
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 02:55 PM by Padraig18
In retrospect, the wording of my reply was 'over the top' (we Irish tend to get that way), and I ask your forgiveness if it seemed to be an attack on either Congressman Kucinich or lovely yourself. Such was not my intention, and I do sincerely apologize.

Can we be friends? :)
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Absolutely, slate hereby clear on my end.
Always happy to grant someone new the title of friend. :-)

For my own part, I try very hard not to reply to posts I find to be inviting a flame-war (which our initial meeting seem to stem from), however, I also know ALL of us can get pretty nasty on occasion, just as I know there are some Kucinich supporters who are far and away a distance from respectful comparisons.

I have my personal issues with Dr. Dean, mostly intuition and instinct, and I fight them on a regular basis because they aren't founded in logical assessment of his positions or statements. I do NOT want to engage in battles with Dean supporters, and I certainly don't want to engage in empty rhetoric. If I question Dr. Dean, I make every effort to do so based on genuine concerns about his ability to lead an entire nation, period. I do the same with all of them.

This morning I posted in response to a suggestion that Clark supporters had "invaded DU", well WTF? How do Democrats supporting a Democratic candidate "invade" a Democratic forum?! I've argued in defense of Clark's voting history because it's PRIVATE, without exception, imo.

Dean's statement at the debate in response to my man's challenge, initially I was pretty harsh about it, but let's face it, anyone can speak in a moment of frustration or just plain outrage and screw up, so OK! I'm content to give the man a pass or two if he says something not quite accurate, on the genuine belief it isn't intentionally lying or misleading. My opinion of him beyond a once or twice of that would have to depend on how many times he makes that mistake.

FTR, I'm posting so much because I want you to have a reason to respect me beyond the fact that we're both human beings with thoughts and opinions. I try to behave with honor. I don't always succeed at it, but I DO try very hard. I hope I've given you something to go on besides a call for a truce, and yes, I will deem you a friend unless and until we have a dispute that can't or won't be resolved by honest discussion.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thank you!
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 03:40 PM by Padraig18
You are indeed gracious, and I look forward to more discussion with you, my newest friend. :)

I care passionately about our common cause--- the defeat of the evil Republican bastards who are currently throttling the world's oldest experiment in democracy--- so passionately that I do, on occasion, go over the top out of sheer frustration and anger. I DESPERATELY want to win not just the WH, but the Senate and the House and many State capitols and legislatures! Call me greedy, but I want it ALL back! *grin*

I came to America not by choice, but by circumstance; that I remain here IS by choice, and I proudly call myself a new "American", because that word still has deep, visceral meaning to people the world over, myself most of all.

You have my pledge to remain civil, even if we disagree in the future (and disagree we may).

:)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. PS...
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 03:45 PM by Padraig18
Please cut me a wee bit of slack if you read a post of mine and say "WTF is he on about???" ; I'm young AND Irish-born, and we're a mouthy lot, don't you know? ;)
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I should say, Padraig. American is American to me.
If you choose to make America your home, then that is it for me. America is home is all I need to hear, no matter the reason or rhyme behind it. If this is HOME, that's it for me. Been listening to music tonight and the best I've heard has been from Brits and Canadians so far.Train has killer lyrics for Americans, I think, and so do The Fixx. Music talks and we ought to listen. Some of us do anyway. ;-)

My fave Train song for now is "It's About You" because that says it all for us Americans, you know? That's how I feel about Kucinich- It's about You. get up and take it.

"I could be that everything you need."
"I know this could be that free-fall that you need"

Just two lines but it feels right. "This ain't about the things you say, or how you make me feel this way. Standing on your corner a thousand times, It's about YOU, It's about YOU."

It's about America and it's about US. In the end it's about US. We're the "YOU" in the song.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. America is my home!
There are times that I think every native-born American should somehow be allowed to see our country through the eyes of an immigrant; I think there is so much that is NOT seen by those who have always lived here, that 'you fail to see the forest for the trees', so to speak.

America is not a place, so much as she is an IDEA, and none could love her more dearly than do I. :D
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. Good post.....

Thank you! :thumbsup:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. Since I Came To DU
I have had to fight tooth and nail to dispel so much false information about Kerry that I find it hard to sympathize, although I ultimately do. I understand people wanting to defend their candidates against distortions, but I also understand that Dean has managed to gather some pretty zealous supporters with extremely thin-skin.

Kerry has been called everything in the book by Dean supporters - in fact, just about every candidate's supporters have - but Dean people start to complain when you bring up even the most obviously legitimate discussions.

I'm all for civility and peace between the supporters, but they have to realize that this isn't their personal blog.
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. The curiosity has finally overwhelmed me
So I just have to ask- I know you're a Kerry supporter, so what prompted you to use a Sharpton pic as your avatar?

On the thread subject, I hadn't thought about it really, but Kerry has really taken it on the chin a lot from Dean supporters. Some of the viciousness in people makes me wonder if we've been pushed into survivalist mode. I mean all of us are questioning the survival of our country if Bush wins another term, so maybe that's the root source of the venom.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I agree
I think many, if not most of us, ARE in a 'survivalist mode'; the thought of another 4 years of the B.F.E.E. terrifies us so much that we can't stand the thought that anyone would 'knock out' the candidate WE honestly believe is the best one--- our own.

Maybe we should all take a deep breath, and put the horns we're placing on the other candidates' heads away for our Hallowe'en costumes, do you think? As Ben Franklin said, "We must hang together, for we shall assuredly hang separately." :9
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Maybe that's it
I am scared to death that we are going to nominate somebody who CAN'T beat Bush. I think that Edwards, Kerry and Dean stand the strongest chance and will do the best job once they get there. Kucinich is a popular emotional favorite, but I just don't think he stands a chance in the general election. As weak as it sounds, Bush/Rove will have postcards of the Bush nukelar family out there and unless Kucinich can marry an appropriately whitebread woman and pop out a set of adorable twins within the next thirteen months, I am thinking that alone will cause him trouble. I KNOW it is a stupid reason, but this is a political campaign, not real life. Gephardt lacks spontaneity and charisma, Lieberman is a little shriveled up gnome looking guy...all of this has nothing to do with the value of the man, but if the value of the man really counted, how did we end up with Bush? I remember reading things about him that made my hair stand on end BEFORE he was elected and I kept asking people around me about it and they just shrugged it off. All his shady land deals and SEC stuff....they just looked the other way.

For all that we here hate him, he is a personable man. He seems like the kind of guy that would come to dinner at your house and tell funny stories and play with your kids. He probably would NEVER EVER do any such thing, but they sell him well. I am so afraid that in our so solidly believing that we are RIGHT, we will forget that being right is only part of the equation. Being elected is the other part.
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
14. My take
Maybe its because I was raised in family that argued for sport, but it doesn't bother me. The key isn't to stop arguing or to even refrain from arguing pretty damn HOTLY. The key is to separate the person from the argument. I hold no grudges. Or, ok, very few. I can argue like hell with somebody one day and agree with them on a different subject the next. Because I am arguing with their IDEAS and the way they express them. If they have a new and different idea that I agree with, then, well, I agree with them.

Personally, I wouldn't want to come hang out to listen to everybody pat each other on the back or have monotone discussions on how much we all hate Bush. Duh. We wouldn't be on the DEMOCRATIC Underground if we were pro BushCo. I have learned a lot from the arguments I have both read and been involved in here.

I am not talking about straight flamebait, which probably should be avoided. If something is written solely to aggravate a particular set of supporters, it would be better off left unsaid. But discussions that flare into arguments over a candidates worthiness are HEALTHY.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I basically agree
Edited on Tue Sep-23-03 08:30 AM by Padraig18
My family also argue for sport, and I enjoy it as much as the next. What I've learned from that, however, is to not become so personally invested in an issue/candidate that you lose sight of the ultimate objective, in this case the defeat of the Emperor of Crawford and his evil minions. In that sense, I differ from many of my fellow Dean supporters: Howard Dean's getting the nomination is NOT more important than taking back our country, and I will not 'take my marbles and go home' if he doesn't get it! I will support WHOEVER is our nominee, even if it's...*gulp*... Joe Lieberman. :puke: :)
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renie408 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Ok
I get you. Yes, I agree.

And I am getting ready to commit an act of heresy that is going to me ostracised, I just know it.


I don't think that Lieberman could be anywhere near as bad as Bush and I even think that on some issues, he might do well by the country.
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