Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Dean wins straw poll at TN Democratic picnic

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Politics/Campaigns Donate to DU
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:10 PM
Original message
Dean wins straw poll at TN Democratic picnic
Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean, a former Vermont governor, won last weekend's straw poll at a Tennessee Democratic Labor Day picnic.

Dean organizers in Tennessee described the results as significant because the picnic was sponsored by labor groups, which are backing U.S. Rep. Dick Gephardt, D-Mo.

''It's also important as this is the first straw poll in the South, where some think Dean would be weak,'' said Gary Cobb, Tennessee's director of grass-roots outreach for Dean.

About 2,600 Democrats from across the state attended the rally at the Charles Hand Farm in Montgomery County.

Of 877 straw votes cast, Dean collected 348, about 40%, beating Gephardt's 232 votes, organizers said.

more: http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/09/39051084...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
AWD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. WHOA!
40% of a straw poll??

Thank you, I'll take that!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rabid_nerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. FYI - Gore came in second
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 02:15 PM by rabid_nerd
250 people signed a petition asking Al Gore to re-enter the race there...

http://www.draftgore.com/petition.htm

<snip>
Howard Dean received 348 votes in the official poll, while the second ranked candidate, Dick Gephardt -- touted as the labor candidate at a Labor Day event -- received fewer votes on the ballot than Al Gore garnered on a petition that people had to go to some trouble to find.

Becky Knight, treasurer of Draft Gore, was interviewed by the CBS affiliate for the evening news.

"People were thrilled to realize the option still open, and are desperate to see Al Gore in the race," she said. "I've never seen so much enthusiasm. We had supporters of other candidates jump on the Draft Gore bandwagon."

Added Lucy Bickett, "One elderly gentleman told me, 'I was supporting Wesley Clark -- until today.' I placed a sticker on Mr. Durnette's shirt, and he insisted I put it on the top of all the rest. He walked away with a spring in his step. People's hope is restored when a Gore presidency is discussed."





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Gore came in 2nd in Tennessee in the 2000 general election also
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rabid_nerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Because of some Florida style tricks by Bush...
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 02:43 PM by rabid_nerd
And many people had the girls put the Draft Gore sticker over their Dean sticker... Some people from the Dean table came over and signed up too.

Had they allowed Gore on the straw poll (Draft Clark was there and not happy about no write-ins being allowed either) Dean would have taken Second place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. I do not recall any problems with voting going on in TN in 2000
Do you have any links on this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Links to voter fraud in Tennessee
Forget Florida; Tennessee needs scrutiny, too
http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section_id=...

U.S. Justice officials examine complaints about unfair treatment at Tennessee polls
http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/01/04/03966405...

The Evidence to Date
http://www.nashvilleinsanity.com/evidenceinTN.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. There seem to be some allegations -- but little proof
These links are one and two years old. Has anything come out of these investigations?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Same as Florida.
Not much came of it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. The State of FL actually agreed to make changes in election proceedures
due to the debacle in 2000.

Gore was actually trailing Bush by a significant margin in every pool coming out of Tennessee prior to the election. The fact is the guy couldn't carry his home state. Perhaps we should nominate someone who is actually popular with the people who know him him best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. What do you know about Tennessee politics?
I am sick and tired of your ignorance.

I am a Tennessee native with a clear understanding of the reason Al Gore did not carry Tennessee.

Is bashing other candidates the only way you can support Howard Dean? If so, you are no better than the Republicans supporting Bush and you are setting a horrible example for the Dean campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. I know that Gore lost his home state by over 80,000 votes
Do you really believe that over 80,000 people were denied the right to vote in Tennessee in 2000?

Bringing up this fact is not 'bashing other candidates.' I am simply stating a fact. Even if it were bashing, Gore is not a candidate. He has state this repeatedly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. But you don't know Tennessee politics at all.
There is no point discussing this with you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. You didn't answer my question
True, I am not an expert on the ins and outs of the Volunteer State's political scene, but I do know one thing: Gore lost his own state. And it wasn't even close.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. Your point is?
Are you a Republican?

Tennesseans understand what happened. We Tennessee Democrats are none too happy about it, but it was not only Gore's fault. It was our fault too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. My point is that Gore was an awful candidate
Polls showed that overwealming majorities favored Gore's positions on issues as opposed to Bush. Yet the election was so close. Why was that? Because he not a very likable guy.

He couldn't even win his home state. Had he done that, Floridia would have been irrelevant and he would be in the White House.

If I were a Republican, he would be the one of the guys I would like to see running against Bush (but to be fair that are some running that would be much poorer candidates than him).

Considering his performance last time, it is silly to want him to run again. Unless you really want Bush to be reelected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Prag_Idealist Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Tennessee Gal- OFF TOPIC
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 11:27 PM by Prag_Idealist
Tennessee Gal,

Are you currently active in TN politics? I ask because I am a Tennessean currently attending graduate school in Cali and would love to have a political-friend from home for discussions and news.

Thanks

PS Sorry for the off-topic. The private messaging didn't work.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. More involved nationally.
Frustration with the local level - unorganized.

Most of my time is spent working on Draft Gore (I am co-founder) and writing for Buzzflash.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. A petition doesn't count as coming in second
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 02:46 PM by w4rma
I would probably have given some thought to signing that petition if I were there, just to show support for Al Gore (as a former supporter). Then I'd go and vote for Dean in the official poll.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rabid_nerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The petition includes
Name, address, phone number, email (if any) of 250 people to a specific petition worded about the fact that no-write-in was allowed.

250 people signed a petition stating they'd vote Gore as they're first choice had they been allowed to write him in. And the table had to be found, and give more information than for a straw poll, and those 250 come from supporters of other candidates.

Draft Gore and Draft Clark both requested that voters be allowed to write in their candidate, but they objected and denied the request.

Any poll including Gore has Gore on top and that's still true today. (literally, but you'll see what I mean in the next day or two)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. AS usual
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 02:43 PM by Nicholas_J
No one stated how loaded that crowd was with Dean supporters, as occured in the Wisconsin Straw Polls, and the Johnson County Iowa Mock Elections:


Dean supporters flocked to the Charles Hand Farm in droves to support Howard Dean, with self-proclaimed Deaniacs coming from Memphis, Clarksville, Tri-Cities, and all points in between. The Howard Dean booth far outpaced the rest of the candidates' kiosks in both scale and excitement. The Dean booth was a hotbed of activity among Democrats and our supply of blue T-Shirts sold out early in the afternoon.

http://nashville.tennessee4dean.org /

AS usual, this is no indication of suppoort for Dena at all, just an indication that Dean's supporters try to engage in pushing polls in order to create appearances. THe fact that Dena can get many younger activists out to do this is NO indication that he leads anywhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rabid_nerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Maybe because
it was a poor showing if you count supporters of individual candidates behind the tables vs. how many votes they got..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. That's because the straw poll says that 40% of the crowd was for Dean
Duh. Of course the crowds were loaded with Dean supporters. That's exactly what the poll says about the crowds.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Which fairly much invalidates
the poll.

It does not indicate that people LIVING in the place the poll was taken support Dean, but that they move people form all over the state to come in to skew such polls.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I never said that these Dean supporters didn't live in the area
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 02:57 PM by w4rma
I think your really trying to grasp at straws, Nic. You're trying hard.

Either, that or you're extremely uninformed about reality, Nic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. you don't know where these voters for Dean lived....so quit trying
to act like you know something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. The post above FROM A TENNESSEANS FOR DEAN SITE
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 03:38 PM by Nicholas_J
Stated that Dean supporters came from all over the state to pump up the numbers"

Dean supporters flocked to the Charles Hand Farm in droves to support Howard Dean, with self-proclaimed Deaniacs coming from Memphis, Clarksville, Tri-Cities, and all points in between. The Howard Dean booth far outpaced the rest of the candidates' kiosks in both scale and excitement. The Dean booth was a hotbed of activity among Democrats and our supply of blue T-Shirts sold out early in the afternoon.

http://nashville.tennessee4dean.org /

Notice the URL...

A small town is flooded with Dean supporters from the largest city in the state, and the poll show Dean winning. Memphis and Clarkeville are 213 miles apart. The Labor Day poll was held in Montgomery County, the County in which Clarksville resides. 3-4 hour drive, abiding by speed limits.


People came from all over the state to load this area for Dean

Real easy one to figure, zidzi.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Okay...I see now where Dean supporters came from all over
the state! Darn ..their enthusiam~ I also saw this..

"But it wasn't just the Dean faithful that won the poll for the Governor. Based on the results, there was a signifcant crossover appeal to rank-and-file registered Democrats and Party faithful that "pulled the lever" for Dean"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Again
THis is NOW the 4th time Dean has obviosly used such techniques. In Iowa, REcently in New Hampshire, In Tennessee and in Wisconsin.

One might as well go to a Dean rally and ask which candidate was most supported.

And the analysis you quote came from, Deans own people, not from the article in Tennessee itself. Another attempt by Dean to create false impressions about his support base.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peaceandjustice Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
85. so we should fault Dean for...
having a motivated, entusiastic base of support? I'd think that would be an advantage. He'll have lots of people to go door-to-door for him in a general election. Apparently more than Kerry. And isn't your big complaint that Dean offends and insults the rank-and-file Democrats who helped lead the party to victory-oops, I mean devastating defeat- in the 2000 and 2002 elections? Doesn't this reflect that Dean can offset the loss of that fraction, whose methods have been proven tired and inefficient, with a new activist core?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
25. Although two polls in NH and one in Iowa are...
Excellent evidence Dean leads...

Isn't enthusiasm a great thing???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. And where it counts
Edited on Thu Sep-11-03 02:22 PM by Nicholas_J
At the national level (thats where we elect presidents) he doesnt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. But that's not where we choose nominees
You should know that...we choose nominees in primary elections in individual states, and Dean is winning in the states where all of the other candidates are campaigning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. Nicholas,
everyone knows straw polls are really a effort to show who has good organization and Dean is demonstrating this. Carter did straw polls in '76 in Iowa and elsewhere--to great success and publicity. It is part of the game. While it doesn't show conclusively that Dean will win the Tennessee primary it does demonstrate that his campaign takes the state seriously and has a top-notch organization. It will get good publicity and convince some voters to take a look at him. It is a great success for these reasons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. All it shows
Is that Dean supporters must come from over half of the State of Tennessee, in order to give him a straw poll win. This is deceptive polling at its very best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. I WAS THERE! I KNOW WHAT I SAW!
Yep, I am Becky Knight in the pictures posted by rabid nerd showing me being interview by the local CBS affiliate from Nashville.

I was manning the Draft Gore table and working the crowd. I know for a fact that people were around our table from the beginning asking questions, signing the petition, donating to our cause, offering to help, and encouraging us to get Gore back in the race. In fact, it was after dark when we were attempting to pack up and leave when the last person left our table. All others, including the Deans, had long since gone.

We had people come to our table in Dean t-shirts and put Draft Gore stickers on. We had Draft Clark people come to our table and tell us they did not know about us and would support us rather than Draft Clark. I even found one Dean sticker wadded up and discarded on our table!

Let me tell you, Dean had more workers there, BUT HE MOST DEFINITELY DID NOT HAVE THE MOST SUPPORTERS! The straw poll was skewed in his favor because they would not allow Gore or Clark on the ballot, nor would they allow write-ins!

DRAFT GORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kang Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Any indication that Gore's even interested?
I hadn't heard anything about it and I understood the reason Gore wasn't going to run is that he thought it would just become a rehashing of the 2000 campaign rather than a vision for America's future. Just wondering. I admire your effort though. If I thought there was a chance that Bob Kerrey would run, I'd try the same thing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I can only tell you this much.................
Of course there is no way that Gore or any of this people can have anything to do with our efforts under current circumstances. However, we know they are aware of us. They know of the web site. They know who we are and how to contact us to stop us. They have not done so and that speaks volumes.

Relatives of Gore (an aunt and others) were at that event on Saturday. She admired our table and said that she would tell him how hard we are working.

We are truly a grass roots organization. We have no professionals on board. We all have full time jobs and have devoted our spare time to this effort. We work like crazy to raise funds and promote our cause. We travel to events whenever possible. Right now we have someone from Arkansas who has gone to NH for a month to set up a Draft Gore office.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. The last time I heard Gore say anything about it
(a couple months ago) he insisted he was not running and that he would announce which candidate he did support sometime soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Of course he did!
What else would you expect? But you can bet your bippy that he is watching things - Shrub's numbers dropping and polls that include Gore, which still show as the strongest contender of the Democrats!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. I would expect him to say what he fricking means
Is THAT too much to ask?

If he's waiting around, dipping his toe in the water and waiting for the water to be warm enough to suit him, then screw Gore.

I voted for him in 2000, would've voted for him again HAD he run.

He has said twice now that I know of that he's not running. If he can't make up his mind over something as basic as whether he's running or not, then why the hell should I vote for him?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rabid_nerd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. He wasn't Hillary Clintonesque in that statement
He did not say no like Hillary's quotes of recent.

It was "not as a candidate"

And in December, even, it was "While I have the energy, drive and ambition to be a candidate..."

Plus he watches our website and we're not operating in a vacuum, like those who fear Gore re-entering like people to think.

That said, as I've said many times already this week, this is just the start of the Draft Gore news cycle..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. I don't care how he may have minced his words
If he's going to run, then stop pussyfooting around about it and playing word games.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. I would hope this would be the case in his home state...
Even though he lost his home state in the general election...so, if you discount the Gore effect, Dean came in first among announced candidates?

It seems pretty clear that most anywhere at this point in time Gore or Hillary Clinton would defeat any of the other candidates among Democrats...and name recognition has a lot to do with it.

How many television ads for Dean or any other candidate have appeared in Tennessee? Did your "Draft Gore" people know anything about the other candidates?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. What do you mean?
"Did your "Draft Gore" people know anything about the other candidates?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Were they well informed?
That's all I'm asking...and if they were, that's fine...I was curious.

I don't know of many visits to Tennessee by the candidates or political advertising...it's not New Hampshire or Iowa where many Democrats have seen multiple candidates face to face along with continual news articles and advertising.

I know for a fact that a number of the people that come to Dean Meetups here in Illinois are not particularly well-informed about the individual candidates. Neither are a number of the local Democratic leaders...they just aren't paying that much attention.

I would expect the straw poll numbers come from gut instinct moreso than long reasoned consideration of all the candidates. I think Gore benefits from that situation...as Dean benefits if people see it as a rallying event for him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. You don't give people much credit.
In general, people who are active enough in politics to attend an event like that are quite well-informed. Those I spoke with certainly were. They knew the issues and the stances of the candidates. Their concern was beating Bush. Not a single Democratic announced candidate is as close to beating Bush in the polls as Al Gore still is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. And Al Gore's stances are???
Has he released policy statements and engaged in debate lately?

I supported Al Gore and value him highly, but he has not been engaging in debate with the other candidates...so I don't believe those attending the event really knew Al Gore's stance on the issues.

What does Al Gore think about Bush's asking for 87 billion for Iraq? What does he think about Bush and the overtime pay issue? What does he think about the current situation in Israel?

Could the people attending quote Al Gore's stance on actual current up-to-the-minute issues? But yet they voted for him without knowing...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Did you hear his recent speech?
Most people I spoke to there had heard it, read it, and even shared it with others.

Perhaps you are the one who is uninformed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. I ask a question and you insinuate...
I am condemned for asking a question based on my personal experience...and you insinuate I am uninformed.

I read Al Gore's speech and passed on URL's to others to encourage them to read it as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peaceandjustice Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
86. Ah...I remember Gore's stances
I remember his stance on standing silently by while Clinton blew up an aspirin plant in Sudan. I remember his stance in favor of the death penalty. I remember his stance in favor of censorship of the rceording industry, a witchunt that led to the collapse of an independent label, alternative tentacles. And I remember voting for Ralph Nader in 2000 and never regretting it.

Al Gore would've been no better than George W. Bush. War in Afghanistan? Gore would've done it. War in Iraq? After his conduct during Clintons Sudan bombing, I don't doubt he'd have gone to war in Iraq to boost his ratings, regardless of what he says now. Patriot Act? Al Gore was one of civil liberties' major enemies in the Senate, he would've signed it with a smile. Tax cuts for the rich? Who cares if he wouldn't have done it, He would've given the same fat-cat plutocrats bucketloads of cash through his developer-enriching "liveability agenda".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
47. They knew...
Carol Mosley Braun and Al Sharpton's impressive performance in debates?

Dennis Kucinich's recent commendations for his support for peace?

Dick Gephardt's use of the term "miserable failure" to describe the current administration?

The substance of John Kerry's recent speech announcing his candidacy?

Howard Dean's calling the administration on the carpet for playing the race card in the Supreme Court's affirmative action deliberations?

Knowing all of this is what I call well-informed about the campaign.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. I knew all of it.
What makes you think others any different? What makes you better informed than those who attended that meeting?

You are engaging in broad generalizations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. My local experience
And, frankly, you and I are engaging in broad generalizations when we are talking about the people who showed up at this event.

I do know how activists I talk to here are...and like I said, if these people are better informed than the norm here in Illinois, that is great!

Tennesseans are smart cookies!

350 of them were very very well informed and voted for Howard Dean - EXCELLENT!! And only 250 supported Al Gore.

And a number whined and complained and cried foul because candidates who either said no, they aren't running or haven't made a decision were not included on the ballot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Over and out!
There is no point in discussing this with you any farther. Thanks.

I had been considering supporting Dean if Al does not reconsider. I will have to rethink my position based on your behavior here and the behavior of the Dean supporters I observed at the event.

BYE-BYE!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. Thats what I mean
Dean's campaign engages in some of the worse and dirtiest style politics this nation's history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. It would appear that way.
To insinuate that political activists at a Democratic event don't know enough about the issues to support the Dean campaign is pretty low.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-10-03 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. This is the fourth such instance
Edited on Wed Sep-10-03 08:08 PM by Nicholas_J
In which Dean supporters showed up in mass in order to influence the results of similar polls that were advertized in advance. Wisconsin we know about. Johnson County Iowa, several hundred Dean suporters from all over the Midwest were there to help bag at the Food-Co-of, Another where Dean recently holds a rally at the borders of New Hampshire areas near areas loaded with his supporters. And now Tennessee.

If Gore were to throw his hat in the ring, I would gladly support him over my current selection, as he deserves the chance to get back what he had stolen from him


Kerry was the ONLY candidate to drop out in 2000 becasue he also wanted Gore to have that chance. He would not run against the VP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. And Bill Bradley was the only candidate to run...
None of the other announced candidates were in the race in 2000...I'm not sure why Kerry deciding not to run is laudable over anyone else?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. Let's talk about tactics...
First,

An assumption is made that I was questioning whether attendees knew enough about issues to support the Dean campaign...I said no such thing.

I actually was curious about how well-informed they were, because I have been disappointed here attending events with Democratic activists who currently seem to be making decisions based primarily on what they think of a candidate in terms of personal popularity...(I'm excited about the Dean campaign...John Kerry is a good man...Dick Gephardt has always supported labor, etc.) they havent' watched the debates, they haven't read position papers, etc...if people are better informed in Tennessee, that's great, and we have catching up to do here.

As far as tactics on this thread....

1. The thread was initiated by a Dean supporter celebrating a clear win reported by the press, and the thread was hijacked by the first response from a "Draft Gore" supporter who turned it into a thread discussing "Draft Gore." I've seen a number of long-term DU'ers protest this type of thread hijacking.

2. As far as our current crop of announced candidates....

They include candidates who have made political history in this country - the first Jewish candidate on a national major party ticket, the first African-American woman ever elected to the Senate, and a U.S. representative who has made ideals about peace a legitimate campaign issue for the first time since the end of the Vietnam War.

They include a 5-term governor, one of the stalwart long-term heroes of liberal ideals in the U.S. Senate, a tireless supporter of the labor movement with long history of party leadership in the U.S. House of Representatives.

They include one of the rising young stars of the Democratic Party in the U.S. Senate, a key leader of the African-American community - one of our most committed and important constituencies, and a senator from one of the key battleground states in 2000 who did stand up to the President in opposing the war...and one candidate who has not decided that is a key military figure who happens to be a Democrat.

Yet, the "Draft Gore" movement has decided none of these are good enough, and instead are encouraging individuals to chuck all of them to try and convince someone to run who has said unequivocally "No." I supported Al Gore until he said No and I respect his decision, and think we have a great list of candidates to choose from.

3. The last speech Al Gore gave was August 7 from what I've looked at. It was a great speech, and I read it, but a number of things have happened since then that all of the other candidates are forced to respond to...and about which they have engaged in national debate. It is impossible for you to state that people have decided to support Al Gore based on current issues when Al Gore has said nothing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. The thread was not truthful.
Dean's support at the Tennessee event was far from solid. I know. I was there!

I saw the Dean people ambushing arrivals and putting Dean stickers on them.

You know very well that had Gore or Clark been allowed on the ballot for the straw poll there is no way that Dean could have won it.

A lot of people did not even participate because of this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. I don't know that at all...
The article did not say Dean's support was solid...it said Dean won the vote.

Did he lose the vote?

If he lost the vote...that would mean the thread was not truthful.

Wesley Clark's support so far is pretty small on a national basis so I question whether he would have won if he was on the ballot...maybe he would have because his supporters are pretty enthusiastic, and they may have come from all over the state. Oh my...they may have even ambushed arrivals!

And, like I said before, I would hope that a former Vice President would still be well-liked enough to win a straw vote if he's on the ballot in his home state with so little other campaigning having taken place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. It is not truthful because it fails to report
that Clark and Gore were not allowed in the straw poll.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Why would they be included?
They won't be on the primary ballots either if they don't declare and qualify.

Will you cry foul then??

The article did mention that Draft Gore people were there signing up supporters...they didn't have to mention that, but they did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. The results are skewed because
Clark and Gore were not included. Had they had a second ballot with those being supported by draft movements included, it would have been a validation of true support by "the people" who attended the event.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. Go to the election officials then...
The simple fact is if they do not say they are running, they will not be included on primary ballots, and, my expectation is - but I might be wrong because I wasn't there - the organizers intended the ballot to be a measure of strength of declared candidates.

On the "Draft Gore" website, by the way...there is a poll included that shows Bill Clinton has nearly as much support among Democrats for the next election - and he can't even legally run.

Why not include Bill Clinton on your ballot? If you want to know "true support" he would be included, wouldn't he?

I'm just saying you can't cry foul on the rules when your candidate is choosing deliberately to not follow them. Al Gore has chosen deliberately to be excluded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. Ever heard of write-ins?
They would not even allow write-ins.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
49. VERY interesting news
A total surprise. And yes, before someone "educates" me, I know what a straw poll is worth. But I would have never expected Dean to do that well in a Southern state with other Southerners on the ballot.

VERY interesting, indeed. There may be hope yet for the Dems to gain a couple of Southern states.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. exactly
good point as usual!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Dean had to get supporters to come
HALF OF THE GEOGRAPHICAL AREA of the state to get a few hundred votes.

Misleading polling at its very best
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Why couldn't any of the other candidates muster that support?
Lack of enthusiasm?

Not being at the right place at the right time?

Thinking the country outside of New Hampshire and Iowa is unimportant?

I really doubt that the Dean campaign punctured their car tires or something heinous like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
56. Dean's support was not solid.
You know that. They use underhanded tactics by having people come from other areas and other states.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I do not know that...
Were all of the Draft Gore people from right where the vote was held?

Having enthusiastic supporters pack straw votes is a long-term thing in politics...as mentioned before, it goes at least as far back as Jimmy Carter's campaign. That's why it's called a straw vote and not a legitimate poll or caucus. It's usually a measure of enthusiasm for a candidate.

There was nothing posted nationally encouraging Dean supporters to come to Tennessee...so I guess it's just those wacky Tennesseeans.

Were Dean supporters just tackling and ambushing people? Wow...I would think someone may have been sued for assault. Do you have any photos of this?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. LOL!
Very funny.

The straw poll was invalid because Clark and Gore were not allowed on the ballot and they could not be written in either.

Considering a report in yesterday's Tennessean stated that attendance was something like 2,000 people, I would hardly call Deans vote of something like 350 people a raging endorsement! It would appear that not that many even participated. I know many who did not.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Drawing attention to your hyperbole...
When you over-exaggerate about the Dean ambush...it's hard to completely take the rest of what you say for not being an exaggeration.

I would assume the point of the ballot was to measure support for the declared candidates...not those who have said no or are still on the fence.

You mentioned 250 signed the petition for Gore...is that a ringing endorsement out of 2,000? It's 100 less than 350.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. 250 who had to make a special effort to find the petition..........
versus those who had to pass the straw poll ballot table to get their food? Yep, I call that significant.

I was there. I saw the Dean people in action. Did you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. No, but...
You saw them in action and said they were ambushing...what do you consider ambushing?

Physically manhandling? That's why I asked...if they were actually ambushing I would have thought the press would have reported that, or somebody would have been angry enough to talk to a reporter.

Please...leave out the hyperbole, and tell us exactly what you saw.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. I saw................
Dean supporters lined up from the parking lot to the sign-in table putting stickers on people. I also saw people take them off and discard them.

It was enough to turn me off supporting Dean in the future.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Thank you for finally telling us what you saw...
It may not be a responsible way to be campaigning...but it's hardly ambush. Thanks for leaving out the hyperbole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. "turn me off of supporting Dean in the future"
what if he is the nominee? who will you vote for? or will you sit out the election? and what does Dean have to do with some supporters placing stickers on people. It sounds like they were out there making their presence known but not intimidating people in voting for them. Also it is not the Dean campaign decision to keep Gore and Clark off the ballot but the decision of the people who ran the event
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
77. If it was a poll of CANDIDATES, then it was completely valid.
CLARK AND GORE ARE NOT CANDIDATES!

How is a poll not valid if they're not included? My dog wasn't on the ballot either. Why? Because he's NOT A CANDIDATE. (oh, and because he's not human and isn't 35 years old).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. But if your dog got the nomination, I'd vote for it.
(nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Even if it was a yellow dog?
hehe
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tennessee Gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. A true test of the will of the people
would have included the two candidates who have legitimate draft movements. Or at least given people the option of writing someone in. Even that was not allowed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
helleborient Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. I suppose because the group had something they were measuring...
Individual candidates are left off all the time in professional polling...I think your complaint is with your local Democratic organizers, not with Howard Dean campaigners.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-11-03 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
87. Dean wins !!! The pattern of Dean's success is/has been evident for
a significant period of time.

Dean '04....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Nov 26th 2014, 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Politics/Campaigns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC