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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:00 PM
Original message
Why I'm for Kerry
I'll never forget watching CSPAN, I think it was the early nineties, John Kerry gave a speech on the floor of the Senate, that was right, impassioned, and oh-so politically incorrect. I don't even want to repeat what he said for fear that the freeper lurkers will seize on it and publicize it. But he earned my respect that day and ever since I have hoped that I would have a chance to vote for him for President one day.

Kerry in 2004!
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iluvchicago86 Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. But...
He voted for the war. What's your opinion about that?
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Hey Kerry was lied too
I'm a Dean supporter, but would have no problem supporting Kerry if he gets the nod.

In addition, I don't think he believed Shrub and co. would go with out UN approval. He never approved of 'how it went down' KWIM?

BTW, I was, and am deeply opposed to the war.

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iluvchicago86 Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yeah....
Edited on Tue Jul-15-03 01:17 PM by iluvchicago86
i was and am opposed to the war, or any war we make for that matter. It's just that Kerry has been in congress for quite a while. One look at Bush can tell you everything about his insane agressive tendencies. I have a big problem believing that Kerry, who is a smart man, thought that Shrub would go to war only with UN approval. But this is just my honest opinion and gut feeling. If Kerry does indeed get the nod, I will have a hell of a hard time supposrting him because of this, even though for the good of my country i know i must. Thats why i hope Dean gets the nomination, cause well..you know ;-)
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. his vote on the war
I'm not happy about his vote on the war, however, I think the more important point is that if any of our candidates had been President, there would have been no Iraq war. The legisative process is such that I do not judge legislators on whether they always vote the way I would. If I did that I'd never be able to vote for anyone with a voting record.
Really the point of my post is that I am for Kerry BECAUSE he is willing to take a stand that may be unpopular. If I were to then not support him because he did something I didn't agree with, wouldn't I be being hypocritical?
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OrdinaryTa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. It Means I Won't Vote For Him
There's gotta be a penalty for voting for an unjust war. I can't bring myself to vote for anybody who voted for Bush's war. Not Kerry, not Hillary, not even the amiable Chuck Schumer whom I like a lot. It's a conscience thing. I think about the thousands of dead Iraqis. Nope. If you ask me to vote for Kerry, I won't do it.
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styersc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. "There's got to be a penalty for voting for an unjust war."
And so by refusing to vote for Kerry (if he is the nominee) you will make the country pay that price with another 4 years of Bush. When Bush is in a position to appoint 2, maybe 3 Supreme Court judges from 2004-2008, I don't want to hear a whimper out of you.
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tpub Donating Member (508 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. and not just this country, but other countries, too
will pay the price.

Do you think if Bush gets reelected that he'll restrain himself from invading other countries?
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LSdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kerry?
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iluvchicago86 Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. tee hee
LMAO !good one :evilgrin:
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. That's a pretty accurate comic..
IMO.
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Teacher4dean04 Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Sums it up nicely!
Great comic!
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SGrande Donating Member (374 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. *yawn*
I really tire of people who discount one of the most LIBERAL Senators who voted against DOMA, and the only Senator up for re-election and one vote, the war vote, undoes it for them

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Sushi_lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. sorry I missed that speech
I've never heard Kerry speak with courage.
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SGrande Donating Member (374 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. low blow ....
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cjbuchanan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. So you will not tell us why you are for Kerry?
Please do not take offense to this, but in a message titled "Why I'm for Kerry" I think you need to say why you are for Kerry. If he said something that made you know he was the one, share it, even if it is not pc (chances are his opponents already know about). Otherwise, you really have not given any reason for supporting Kerry. Saying he said something great but I'm not going to tell you what it is will not win you many converts.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Political incorrectness
What I'm saying is that he gave a speech that, if reported widely in the media right now, would probably alienate a lot of voters we'll need in November, even if it might win over some folks here. Is DU a closed club with no fr lurkers, no press lurkers? Would it really be smart for me to publicize something that I think would hurt my candidate, in order to persuade folks who will almost certainly vote for the dem nominee anyway?
I recognized this dilemma before I posted, but, well, I just wanted to say why I am for Kerry anyway. If it does not win converts so be it, but at least you know that this is one Montana Democrat who respects John Kerry.
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cjbuchanan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Okay
I hear what you are saying but if he said something that would alienate a lot of voters, don't you think his opponents would be more then happy to reveal it. Also, if it is something that might cost him the election, it is better that it comes out before he gets the nomination.
Please do not think that I am attack Kerry or you, but if you start a thread titled "why I am for..." whatever, it would be best to give reasons.
Just my thoughts.
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. Freaks


Kerry is infinitely better than Dean on almost every single issue known to man.

If a fascist had opposed the war, would we be voting for him?

Further, if we voted against every Democrat who voted for this war (a decision many are upset they made), then we'd had about 20 in the Senate.

I was not for an invasion of Iraq either and I have made my opinions known to the Kerry camp telling them that is the one reason I haven't fully committed to him. Despite all the great things he has done in the Senate, the causes he champions, he is still tarnished by this vote.

STILL, it is a vote that may actually WIN him converts in the middle. No way a peace candidate (especially one who sucks on many of the issues) will win in this nation at this time.

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cjbuchanan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Let us not be so quick with the insults
Excuse me, but calling people freaks is not a way to win votes for your guy.

You obviously do not like Dean but I hope you are not trying to say he is a fascist. If you are, then I must recommend that you study up on the term.

Concerning this whole peace candidate thing, Dean himself has said he is not a pacifist, he just did not see the evidence for invading Iraq. Since the intelligence that took us to war is being proven false daily, being against this war for the reasons he has stated might not be such a bad thing (by the way, recent polls have shown a sharp decrease in the support for the war).

You are correct; Kerry's vote might win him some converts, but to say that Dean's stance will not is not fair. An anti-Iraqi war candidate might not win "in this nation at this time", but it is a long way till November 2004 and a lot can and will happen. Remember, just two months ago most people were saying Dean is going to disappear after the war ends. Well the war was declared over and Dean is bigger then ever. Who knows where we will be in two more months.

Finally, remember that insulting the people on this board is not the best way to go. All of us will need to work together if we want to get rid of Bush. It is fine to disagree with others, but insulting them is only hurting the cause.

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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. United for America
I do hope we can avoid the circular firing squad this time. Let's leave it to the Repubs to attack our candidates.
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cjbuchanan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. United for America, United against Bush
Feanorcurufinwe,

That is one of the smartest statements I've read all day.
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MarianJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Thank You!
We need to get over tis notion that 1 thing disqualifies a candidate from our support. Mo Udall was the first person I heard refer to the circular firing squad. Look at the alternative to our announced and rumored candidates, which is 4 more years of bush jr.

The excellent article about Howard not being George made me look at Dean in a somewhat different light, but I'm still not convinced.

What I'd like to see is discussion of candidate's strangths and weaknesses. We as a party need to do without the "Fuck Kerry, Fuck Dean, Fuck DLC, Fuck anybody who isn't my candidate" nonsense that is popping up where we should have discussions.

Since 1960, when we're diveded, we lose. When we're united (except for 1988), we win. Do the math, people! I will support any Democrat against president moron!
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iluvchicago86 Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. "If a fascist had opposed the war, would we be voting for him?"
Edited on Tue Jul-15-03 03:47 PM by iluvchicago86
Probably not dude. But a crap load of dems did support a war. Kerry is one of those, and people say they will vote for him. Dems who voted for it may say they regret it...but not for moral reasons i can tell you that. Kerry's remorse for this is sort of like the guy who robbed a bank and is very sorry about it. Not sorry for the robbery, but very very sorry he is going to jail.



Edit: fixing stuff
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iluvchicago86 Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. same message
Edited on Tue Jul-15-03 03:47 PM by iluvchicago86
came up three times . sorry.
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iluvchicago86 Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. same message
Edited on Tue Jul-15-03 03:48 PM by iluvchicago86
came up three times. sorry guys.
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ModerateMiddle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-15-03 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I agree with the blind allegiance
many are attributing to anyone who voted against the use of force resolution last October - or who said they would have voted against it.

IMO it was a calculated risk - there was a vocal anti-war group made up of folks who are typically Dem activist types. And oh, Dean was *surprised* by getting their support? His stand was merely courageous, not calculated?

Be for Dean, that's fine, but don't do it blindly. He's as much of a political animal as the rest of them.
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phillybri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. A fascist did oppose the war: Pat Buchanan!
I sure as fuck wouldn't vote for him!!!

Kerry is the guy, but Dean is up to task too.
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SGrande Donating Member (374 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. I hear ya brotha
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Since you bumped it up
Since you bumped it up and I gave it away in several threads anyway I'll just say that the speech was about mandatory minimums, but it was not so much that he expressed a particular policy point that I agreed with (which he did), but that I could tell by the way he was expressing himself, that this was someone who 'Gets It' and someone who actually believed in representing ordinary people like me. Now I suppose with some work someone could look up all his floor speechs on mandatory minimums and find the exact words that I found so inspiring and so politically incorrect. But of course I'm not just for Kerry for that one speech. That was the start of my interest in him. First impressions are important but more important is seeing someone in the fight year after year. I support him for the leader I believe him to be.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. I Won't Follow Up On This (I'm Exhausted), But Here Is My Take On The Vote
1. I disagreed with Kerry and was disappointed at the time.

2. After reading the text of the speech, I understood why he voted the way he did. Basically, he was making lemonade out of lemons.

Whatever its faults, it limited the theater to Iraq, and the resolution forced Bush to go to through the UN process, although he wasn't bound by it (that would be Biden-Lugar).

3. If Gephardt and Lieberman hadn't undercut Biden-Lugar, we wouldn't have this conversation.

4. Kerry would never take America in anything resembling this direction. His progressive internationalist foreign policy is a wonder to see (one place where Dean is truly Kerry-lite).

5. Perhaps more than any other reason, I believe that Kerry voted out of conviction and not political expediency. Dean has been able to distort this issue by repeatedly refusing to mention the issue of disarmament (he supported it, only didn't mention it until war was upon us), even though it was the ONLY issue for Kerry. Kerry vocally rejected pre-emption, unilateralism, the lack of an imminent threat, etc., but vocally supported unfettered inspections and disarmament. And, it turns out, he has for years:

Saddam Hussein cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this Nation. -1997.

While we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise. -1997.

Saddam Hussein has violated ... that standard (against using weapons of mass destruction) on several occasions previously and by most peoples expectation, no matter what agreement we come up with, may well do so again. The greater likelihood is that we will be called on to send our ships and our troops at one point in the future back to the Middle East to stand up to the next crisis. -1998.

However you may disagree with him, clearly he believed that a threat existed and needed to be disarmed. He presented a clear set of actions that he would take as President, and Bush choose the path of mind-numbing incompetence instead.

So, although I disagree with him, I understand why he choose to vote "yes." I do not believe it was the result of expediency, but of a long held conviction from which he has never wavered.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. The good doctor
Well said Dr. Funk.

Okay, Kerry voted for the Iraq resolution. We all know that. Howard Dean didn't. He talked the talk, but if we're going solely by words here, Kerry talked the talk that Dean talked for over a decade. Dean could talk all he wanted b/c he didn't have to vote, or take part in the process.

So Kerry is an untrustworthy centrist puke because of basically one vote (Patriot Act doesn't count, even Wellstone voted for it), after almost 30 years of loyal, liberal service in which he stuck out his neck more than once for the benefit of democracy and America?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. OK, so he thought SH was a threat.
How about the Patriot Act? Not exactly the most Liberal piece of legislation to come out of Washington. Did he think the American people were a threat, too?
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Enough about the Patriot Act
Almost every Democratic congressman and woman voted for it. I think the only notable dissenter was some person named Feingold. Do you respect Paul Wellstone? Even he, the famous liberal, voted for it. So it was obviously a hasted bill in the aftermath of terror and panic of 9/11.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. And don't forget, the Patriot Act sunsets in three years.
Both sides of the aisle appear have deep reservations about extending it.

Regime Change Begin at Home. Vote JOHN KERRY.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
31. I know the speech you're talking about...Yes, Kerry was brave
to come forward when DAMN FEW politicians ever would to advocate for gays to be allowed to serve openly in the military. DAMN FEW politicians have ever shown the balls to go after the BFEE, CIA, BCCI and IranContra crimes. Plus, to advocate for gays LONG before anyone paid attention to gay issues.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Only Kerry and Mosley Braun voted against the craven Defense of Marriage
Act of 1996--which Clinton signed. Graham, Gephardt, Lieberman all voted against it; the vote was 85 to 14. Kucinch and Edwards not yet elected. This takes courage to stand up and vote against the majority in your party.

Vote taken in September no doubt done to try and use this issue against Democrats in the 1996 Presidential and Congressional elections. Kerry was up for re-election, by the way.

Also, Kerry has consistently voted against the egregious bankruptcy bill--a giveaway to the banks and credit card companies. His fellow Senators running for President have all voted for the bankruptcy bill--including Edwards.

The man has integrity. Don't you think he knew his vote for the Iraq resolution would be very unpopular with those against the war--activist and otherwise (which includes me). Kerry did what he thought was right.

As I have said before, Bush LIED when he said war was his last resort. Bush went to both the Congress and the U.N. in bad faith. Bush did not exhaust diplomacy, he rushed to war, lying to Congress and the American people about the "immediate" threat that Iraq posed. Bush was hellbent to war, and he has acted dishonorably to Congress, the United Nations, the American people and the entire world! He has soiled the Presidency.
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