The Man from Vermont is Not Green: Counterpunch

[VoteClark]

"For Vermonters who have seen Howard Dean up close and personal for the last eleven years as our governor, there's something darkly comical about watching the national media refer to him as the "liberal" in the race for the Democratic nomination for president. With few exceptions in the 11-plus years he held the state's top job, Dean was a conservative Democrat at best. And many in Vermont, particularly environmentalists, see Dean as just another Republican in Democrat's clothing."

http://www.counterpunch.org/colby02222003.html

[clar]

1. michael colby:

thought sending bush to the WH was a good idea because it would empower the environmental movement. That worked out well.

[DannyRed]

2. Come on

when are you going to get the message?

When are you going to stop with the crap? When are you going to stop posting 8 month old hack jobs from extremely dubious, or extremely naive/unpragmatic sources?

How many times have Dean supporters agreed that he is not a leftist, agreed that his politics are moderate, and that the reason they support him is not because he is Lenin incarnate, but because he is electable, he is aggressively going after Bush, and because he is organizing a really great, really smart campaign that is energizing a lot of people that had previously dropped out of politics?

Let's put it this way, imagine what Counterpunch would say about Wesley Clark? Or what anti-war would say about Wesley Clark.

Get it yet?

http://www.counterpunch.org/genclark.html

At the beginning of the Kosovo conflict,CounterPunch delved into the military career of General Wesley Clark and discovered that his meteoric rise through the ranks derived from the successful manipulation of appearances: faking the results of combat exercises, greasing to superiors and other practices common to the general officer corps. We correctly predicted that the unspinnable realities of a real war would cause him to become unhinged. Given that Clark attempted to bomb the CNN bureau in Belgrade and ordered the British General Michael Jackson to engage Russian troops in combat at the end of the war, we feel events amply vindicated our forecast.

With the end of hostilities it has become clear even to Clark that most people, apart from some fanatical members of the war party in the White House and State Department, consider the general, as one Pentagon official puts it, "a horse's ass". Defense Secretary William Cohen is known to loathe him, and has seen to it that the Hammer of the Serbs will be relieved of the Nato command two months early.

http://www.counterpunch.org/clark.html

A Vain, Pompous, Brown-noser

Meet the Real Gen. Clark

http://www.counterpunch.org/waco.html

Was Clark at Waco?

I mean really, voteclark, if you want to get nasty and find all sorts of damaging (yet unsupportable or extremely fringe) articles and opinions about Wesley Clark, I am sure I can oblige you.

But let's not. So cut it out.

[liberalnurse]

4. Yea, what he said!

We got the goods......throw down!

[DannyRed]

3. oh, and

Did you or did you not say:

" It doesn't matter what is said, it is false information. Come back with a creditable source of information."

in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=18707

post number 35

???

Are you that lame?

[tedoll78]

5. ...

wow.. I haven't read this before.. :eyes:

*yawn*

[CMT]

6. I'll say it again

People know that Dean is not the most liberal candidate in the race. He does have a fine environmental record in Vermont with tough standards on Mercury levels in water, preserving 470,000 acres of land from development, creating the states first energy efficient utility, ordered emission levels in Vermont to be below the Kyoto Treaty levels. If he were such a Rino the people of Vermont, a left of center state with a statewide congressman who happens to be a Socialist would not have re-elected him five times.

By the way here is his San Francisco speech on the environment--it is excellent.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7383

By the way DraftClark--where does Clark stand on the environment? Maybe instead of always knocking Dean you might illuminate us a bit on what the man you are supporting plans to do if he is elected president.

[tedoll78]

8. I find him..

.. to be very environentally friendly, but not to the point where he'll scare-away the votes of coal miners in West Virginia. That's a good thing.

[Aaron]

7. The Man from Arkansas is Not Running: Counter-Counterpunch

Am I the only one that saw that?

[Ediacara]

9. good christ!

didn't you just proclaim 12 HOURS ago that counterpunch was a bullshit source?

[11cents]

10. I'm a Clark supporter, VoteClark. KNOCK IT OFF

You're not doing the Draft Clark campaign any good by representing him so poorly here. Think about it: When supporters of other candidates cite crap totalitarian sources like Counterpunch against Clark, does that, uh, convince you? Does it make you feel better of Kucinich, or Dean, or whoever they're pushing? No. So why should doing the same thing on behalf of Clark help our cause? Use your head. You don't make people listen to you by insulting them. The fact that a Dean supporter used Counterpunch against Clark doesn't make it OK for us to do so; more to the point, it doesn't make it any less stupid to do so.

[Mairead]

11. "crap totalitarian sources like Counterpunch"? hooOOOoo-eeey!

I think you should check your facts.

[11cents]

12. I'm quite up on "my facts"

My roots are on the left. I don't think chronic and pathetic alcoholism is the only explanation for Alexander Cockburn's sympathy for the American militia movement. You couldn't fit a dime into the ideological gap between his bunch and what we call rightist extremists. If you want America to be screwed, knowing that if things get bad enough you can jet back to the family estates in the British isles, Cockburn's your man and Counterpunch is your reading of choice. If you want America to be saved, look elsewhere.

[tameszu]

26. Let me agree and make that 13 cents,

And agree with both of 11cents' posts above.

VoteClark, this isn't helping. Clark has so many positives, he doesn't need to go negative, especially not right now. In fact, along with his foreign policy background, his other biggest source of comparitive advantage might be his ability to stay above the fray.

As for Counterpunch and Alexander Cockburn, Eric Alterman, Cockburn's very dovish colleague at The Nation, calls him a neo-Stalinist and anti-semite. I won't comment on the second label, but the first seems to fit him better than anyone else out there. The guy isn't a leftist or a liberal; he's a totalitarian. He sympathizes with violent overthrow of a (more or less) liberal-democratic government.

[genius]

13. Dean wanted to irradiate California's water supply

So the Dean people want us to replace one anti-environmentalist with another. An anti-environmentalist is and anti-environmentalist. I want someone who doesn't want my kids drink and bathing in radioactive water.

[dajabr]

14. That's quite a claim to make...

Without citing a source to back it up...

[genius]

17. This has been posted many time. Please read.

Take a reading course. Ever hear of Yucca Mountain and the Vermont governor who supported putting his state's nuclear waste where is could contaminate California's water supply? Or did you just start reading posts today? Well out here in California, that's a big deal. Those who opposed it were Kucinich, Kerry, Gephardt and Lieberman. And the truth shall set you free.

[tedoll78]

18. I'm calling you on this.

"It could contanimate California's water supply" (emphasis mine) is not the same as "Dean wanted to irradiate California's water supply."

Perhaps you need to take a reading course. And some truth serum.

[genius]

20. I guess the children who could die don't matter as much as winning

Why do the Dean people put electing their man above human life? Ro those of us who want to make the world a better place, maybe the Dean people really are lost causes and we really should just give up on them.

[Ediacara]

21. geologically speaking "genius"

How is Yucca Mountain unsafe?

I don't want "coulds" or "mights" or "maybes", I want a sound explanation of why it either will or will not suffer a catostrophic problem.

An explanation as simple as "fault lines" or "seismicly unstable" will do, but I want references, not "IT'S DANGEROUS!!!"

[tedoll78]

22. You're relying on conjecture and personal insults.

Is that the best you've got?

I mean, it'd be one thing if you were to come-up with some actual substance, but maybes and what-ifs? That's the realm of Art Bell and George Norry. I want the realm of reality here.

And yes, you really should give-up on trying to "de-program" me as a Dean supporter. I've seen his record, I know his positions, and I like what I see. Apparently so do many others. Don't let your frustration eat you up completely.

[Ediacara]

19. you're being intentionally dishonest "genius"

irradiation is using ultra violet light to kill microorganisms in water or food. It's safe, and basically like putting a glass of water or a cheeseburger in a tanning bed.

What you described is 1) NOT irradiation and 2) never been demonstrated to actually be problematic.

Tell me "genius," geologically speaking, how is Yucca Mountain unsafe*? You know geology, the branch of science that studies the Earth?

*I do not claim that Yucca Mountain is safe or unsafe, I simply want an explanation as to why it's a disaster waiting to happen based on geology.

[dajabr]

23. I called you on your bullshit, so now you resort to personal attacks?

Nice...

Anyway, if this is so well known, it should be no problem for you to provide some proof.

Something with a headline like: "Dean supports poisoning California children," from a major news source should suffice. Good luck!

[genius]

29. Dean admitted his support of Yucca Mountain. Get a conscience

At least he's more honest than his supporters and that isn't saying much for either.

[tedoll78]

30. Wow.

Someone needs their afternoon nap.

:nopity:

[Ediacara]

31. why respond to

Tedoll78's posts but not mine? You're a "genius" aren't you? You can tell me why the site is unsafe in geological terms can't you?

[tedoll78]

15. That's a new one. Care to cite a source? Hmm?

And BTW.. I'm taking a radiation safety course in the Fall, but I already know that not all forms are inherently unhealthy. I'd like to know the circumstances of this supposed water irradiation.

[Ediacara]

16. irradiating water?

You mean shining ultraviolet light onto water that's already within the water supply so that bacteria and single celled eukaryotes are killed? How is this anti-environmental?

Or am I missing something only a "genius" can know?

[Desertrose]

24. You are missing the point

Wasn't Dean ready to transport nuke waste to a town in TX...just to get it out of Vt...

He didn't oppose the insanity of Yucca Mt- bad enough it ends up there...but to travel there?


http://www.house.gov/transportation/press/press2002/release247.html
“Yucca Mountain Decision Has Been Based On Politics, Not Science”
        “Unfortunately, the decision to ship high level nuclear waste to Yucca Mountain has been, from the very beginning, based on politics and not on science,” said U.S. Rep. Jim Gibbons (R-NV).
<snip>
        “I applaud the leadership of the House Transportation Committee for holding an oversight hearing to discuss the real dangers of transporting high-level nuclear waste past our homes, schools, and hospitals.  It is my hope that Congress will seriously consider the concerns raised in this hearing and then, reject the DOE’s cavalier assumption that there is no environmental impact associated with shipping high-level nuclear waste to and storing it in Yucca Mountain.  It is time to stop the Yucca Mountain Project for the good of America.”

http://www.geosc.psu.edu/People/Faculty/FacultyPages/Kubicki/yuccamountain.html
1. Nuclear fission produces other radioactive elements that contaminate components of the nuclear reactor.
2.  Nuclear waste is currently being stored at many "temporary" sites all over the U.S.
3.  Leakage of radioactive material into groundwater has already occurred at Hanford, WA.
4.  Yucca Mt. Is the main site designated for long-term disposal of high-level nuclear waste.
5.  This site has advantages and disadvantages.
6.  Research is ongoing to test the geologic stability (e.g., earthquakes, volcanic activity) and hydrology of Yucca Mt.

As an MD...shouldn't Dean be even more aware of the impact this has on human beings??? I seem to recall a rather cavalier answer about well now that he was running for Pres...maybe he'd have to rethink that (voting for Yucca Mt )-basically saying screw NV unless he needs thier votes.....
can you spin that another way?

Peace,
DR

[Ediacara]

25. "genius" was using incorrect terminology

irradiation is not even close to the same thing as Yucca Mountain.

[Desertrose]

27. "irradiation" is different than radiation...however,

his point about Dean voting for Yucca Mt was correct, was it not??
And what I posted is also true, is it not?

..that Dean didn't seemed concerned because the waste site wasn't near VT says a lot to me about how much he "cares".

therefore...if I lived anywhere that could be affected...I would be a bit concerned about it myself....hell...I am concerned anyway...we are all connected and that should be fairly obvious to all living on this planet by now!
I am amazed people aren't screaming louder about this and a whole lot more!!!

Peace
DR

[Ediacara]

28. "genius" is being disengenuous

1) he didn't make his point and used incorrect terms

2) Yucca Mountain has not been demonstrated to be unsafe. The links you provided have a lot of "maybes" and "coulds," but no demonstration that it will or probably will lead to catastrophe.

"genius"'s intentional dishonesty is nothing short of uphalling.

[dsc]

33. It is one thing to say Dean supported Yucca Mountain

which he did. It is quite another to purport that it would affect California's water supply with no proof.

[Desertrose]

34. The "proof " is usually after the fact isn't it?

...as in ooops! I think the fact that there are so many "maybes" as to what could happen, there should be (have been) a lot more serious questioning to this whole insane proposal.

"..that Dean didn't seem concerned because the waste site wasn't near VT says a lot to me about how much he 'cares'."

He seems to care about what is expedient....I see him as a person who cares about getting votes & fluffing his ego....I certainly don't feel that he cares about each supporter beyond getting their vote or what they can do for him.

So go & slam me, flame me, but thats how I see Dean...only my opinion...well actually is isn't cause there are obviously others who feel similarly about Dean...hope I'm wrong- hate ot see so many people be so disappointed....

DR

[gully]

32. Dean on the enviroment.

http://deandefense.org/archives/000697.html