WESLEY CLARK IS A SURE LOSER IN THE GE!

[mzmolly]

There is no way voters in America will replace Bush with someone that has no domestic or policy experience. We're effectively engaged in 3 complicated, nontraditional wars: Iraq, Afghanistan and the broader war on terrorism. Americans don't want any more WAR! Americans are afraid, they are angry that Bush has ignored our domestic agenda and has spent us into oblivion. Clark with his lack of funds, and soft support is just whistling past the graveyard.

On national security, while Bush was waging his war Clark praised his efforts saying:



Rove will have a field day with Clarks major inconsistancy regarding Iraq and other issues. In fact, I bet they'll use Clarks own words in a campaign commercial for Bush LOL.

Rove will paint Clark as an empty suit who was a Republican until 3 months ago. They'll run ads showing Clark praising Bush on the war. Saying "I'd be a Republican if Rove had returned my calls." Yup, they'll use Clark's own words to campaing for Bushie boy.

Then they'll start educating the left, informing Democrats about who Clark really is. They'll have a last minute tell all interview with Hugh Shelton and Clarks peers who question his integrity. They'll talk about how * plans to lower the deficit in his next term, how he passed a health care bill, how he passed "no child left behind." And then they'll say Bush is strong on defense, and has domestic experience, they'll claim the economy is on the up swing. They'll say Clark doesn't have the experience to lead our nation on domestic issues. And they'll claim * is able to do so.

Democrats will be apprehensive about voting, they'll stay home in record numbers. All the new people Dean has brought into the process *gone* A third party candidate will run and siphon support from the Dems.

What will it take for the rest of Clarks supporters to wake up? Vote for Wesley Clark, and you'll get 4 more years of Bush, I promise you!

[HumanPatriot]

1. he bombs heavy metal stuff

so of course your wrong. bang bang boom boom goes the soldier general guy.

[LuminousX]

2. You know, any thread with all caps, whether for my guy or not

deserves to be hidden. No good will come from it.

[zulchzulu]

7. Absolutely

Molly's post doesn't bode well for more reasoned Dean supporters. All caps is a bad sign too.

[mzmolly]

10. Well I thought we were using caps today...

lookie here.

Just wanting to be heard is all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=108&topic_id=105555&mesg_id=105555

I didn't see one :spank: regarding this OP?

hmmm. ;)

[LuminousX]

14. Yeah, I saw that, I wasn't impressed by that thread either

A revenge thread is equally worthless. We need to be focusing on building discussion. The nuking of GDP2004 is our chance to move beyond the tit-for-tat threads, the gotchas and the daily drumbeat of negativity.

If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it at all.

I don't mean to pick on you, and hopefully you don't see it that way. I just feel at some point in time we have to strive for something better.

[drfemoe]

65. I'm very confused

about just who your "guy" is? Dean, but only if he is nice to Clark? :shrug:

[Printer70]

70. For someone who claims he's a Dean supporter...

..you sure have been hard on other Dean supporters lately.

[w13rd0]

78. LuminousX has gone through a long, rather public process...

...in his selection. And honestly, someone being hard on "Dean supporters" doesn't mean they aren't for Dean. Heck, with the sheer diversity of opinion within the Dean campaign, and amongst Dean supporters, there are sure to be personality clashes here and there, and clashes in views on methodology.

[zulchzulu]

3. I'd say Dean is more of a guarantee of losing...more like a landslide...

Go ahead and attack Clark; just like the candidate you back who only recently said that attacking other candidates was wrong...

[mzmolly]

23. Why because he's bringing new people into the party, or because he's got

the most money/support.

It's hogwash because most of the other candidates are so desperate they have NOTHING else to go on. NOTHING.

[arewethereyet]

35. one question I have about Dr Dean's "new people" thing

I was reading in something that he has a half million supporters. I'm guessing that means contributors.

Half a million of anything is a lot but there were over one humdred million voters last time.

I don't believe that all those half million are new voters so I'm trying to get a handle on what he's talking about numbers wise and based on his results thusfar, is it realistic ? Even if all half million were new and he doubled it between now and then (very generous) would it make up for the number of old time dems that died since 2000 ?

I guess what I'm saying is, please quantify.

[mzmolly]

40. Iowa will be an indicator. I won't say any more

;)

[LuminousX]

45. Exactly

... I'm eager to see.

[lurk_no_more]

73. It goes like this

Three elderly men are at the doctor's office for a memory test.

The doctor asks the first man, "What is three times three?"

"274," is his reply.

The doctor rolls his eyes and looks up at the ceiling, and says to the second man, "It's your turn. What is three times three?"

"Tuesday," replies the second man.

The doctor shakes his head sadly, then asks the third man, "Okay, your turn. What's three times three?"

"Nine," says the third man.

"That's great!" says the doctor. "How did you get that?"

"Simple," he says, "just subtract 274 from Tuesday."

******************************


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[polpilot]

89. Kerry on Bush: "George Bush is a good man trying to do good things"

Clark & Kerry cheerleading for Bush. What a crew!

Dean '04...

[BootinUp]

4. Can you shout it a little louder?

kind of offensive

lets all count down now 5,4,3,2,1

[bitchkitty]

5. He won't be a loser in the GE

because he's not going to make it to the GE.

[Renew Deal]

20. So Clark and Dean have something in common?

I am sure you agree right?

[bitchkitty]

37. Dean's going to win.

You can spam all the bullshit over this and any message board you want, call to freep as many polls as you want, spread every last insignificant out-of-context quote you can find. Dean's going to win, and it's just killing you.

[KnucklesBuchanan]

57. You mean...

like the bullshit, out of context quotes that Molly just threw up there?

Deal.

[lurk_no_more]

74. You assertion and $1.00

will buy a cup of coffee, it won't happen and simply being in deanial won't make it so.


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[elixir]

85. You are way too angry. You need to find a quiet place inside yourself

and relax. If Dean wins great, if Clark wins great. We all win when Bush is out of the WH.

[bluestateguy]

6. I don't have time for gotcha quote politics

We can play this game until the cows come home, digging up old quotes from years ago to associate a particular candidate with everything that is bad. I simply won't participate in it.

[bitchkitty]

39. And yet, here you are. n/t

[jmaier]

8. I believe that this is a silly

retaliatory thread against the ALL CAPS anti-Howard Dean thread posted some newbie earlier. Like that post, this is equally inane and misguided. Unlike that post, this is from a more 'experienced' DU'er.

I wish the lot of them would find a new place to rant.

[funky_bug]

11. A more experienced DU'er

wouldn't have ended their "flyer" with a quote that is attributed to no one in particular. No point in playing the rebuttal game. A more experienced DU'er already knows what that quote is junk.

[seaglass]

16. The argument in the other thread was cogent, just because

it is negative doesn't mean it's inane. I don't understand why supporters can't respond to the points being made or at least explain why the points are unimportant.

[mzmolly]

38. Because it's been done over and over again.

There is an organized effort to spread the "Dean can't win meme" here at DU. People plan it and take turns using the same talking points again and again.

The points have been refuted, but it does no good.

[mmonk]

9. So much for appeals

for civility.

[mzmolly]

12. I'll be glad to take a civility oath when others here do.

say when? Did anyone school our new DU-er on civility?

Lighten up folks. ;)

[jmaier]

15. Sadly, mzmolly

We can hardly encourage newbies to be civil (and you'll note that I did jump on them if you read the thread) if our more experienced Du'ers practice the same crap and use the prepubescent excuse that 'he/she did it first.'

But since there are a minority of posters here who are always going to play mindless tit-for-tat games, I should just save my typing.

[mzmolly]

21. I read the thread, and as far as I can tell your the only Clark supporter

who admonished the so called newbie.

Sometimes you have to stand out to make a point.

How many times do we hear Dean can't win here by Clark supporters? Over and over again, and it's garbage. It's tiresome.

I will "fight back" just like my candidate has said he will. I'm tired of Dean being a pin-cushion ;)

[mmonk]

25. You don't hear it from me either

I usually don't go negative on him but I will defend Clark vigorously. Anyway, everybody's entitled to their opinions, but some of the posts aren't useful dialog.

[jmaier]

27. Those are pins

that are probably marked 'Return to Sender'. He dishes it out nicely, in advance.

Go forth and froth. It's pretty inconsequential. I'm not one of the civility police. I just usually expect the best from people.

[BootinUp]

30. Some of us stay out of those threads

Heck I figured he got pummelled anywho.

[jonnyblitz]

26. oh are you for real?

you guys start thread after dean bashing thread and you get all righteous about civility?? check the other subject lines in "politics and campaigns" and reign your people in THEN come back and preach us your sermon about civility! you guys are too much!!

[jmaier]

31. You really

should direct your venom at some Clark supporter who actually does what you are accusing them of -- sadly, we can't reign them in any more effectively than some like Padraig try and restrain your unruly lot.

Children, the bunch of them no matter what gang colors they sport.

[BootinUp]

36. jmaier nominated for next moderator

your common sense posts shine through every day.

:)

[mzmolly]

50. unruly lot?

cute ...

unruly lot for Dean! ;)

[mzmolly]

47. Thanks Jonnyblitz.

I think jmaier is the only clark supporter who spoke up in the other thread of this nature. But, the observation applies to many others.

:hi:

[mouse7]

13. No general that can get Madonna and Micheal Moore is sure loser

Please stop "sure loser" threads.

Clark clearly has the means of attracting a wide base of support.

Let's go do what we need to do to find out which of our 9 candidates is the best one. It's reasonable to discuss which candidate has the best chance of winning.

It is not reasonable to damn candidates as "sure losers." It's clearly not true, and it hands ammo to Rove.

[HumanPatriot]

19. any proof f the michael moore endorsement?

Is this a campaign rumor, a drudge BS leak, or serious substantiated truth? Ive been outta the loop on this one but haven't seen anything solid. Madonna though does mean absolutely nothing to me. The thought of her and politics is silly.

[mouse7]

33. I just saw the threads here

I would guess the Clark supporters will be glad to update this info.

[Crunchy Frog]

69. Just go and check his website

see for yourself.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

[mzmolly]

17. I'll edit out the caps. As you know I was demonstrating how obnoxious

anyone here can be. And, how we can all make a bullshit claims as to why so and so can't win an election.

This seems to be a repetitive meme out of the Clark camp. I think it's orchestrated psycological warfare against Dean.

It's sad when you have to gain supporters by claiming someone else cant win?

Dean is the most electable candidate. That's one reason I support him.

:hi:

[digno dave]

18. nice try, but Dean has the "unelectable" term copyrighted

try something else.

[Freddie Stubbs]

94. Kucinich and Sharpton are much more unelectable

than Dean.

[TacticalPeek]

22. Hope is not a plan.

Your thesis seems to imply that you would disagree with the proposition that if the election were held today, aWol would win.

If so, we have different views.

[Texas_Dem]

24. Ha ha ha

My my my...

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you....


Been a while since I have been here and its changed alot! Sad to see so much desperation!

[Rowdyboy]

28. I've seen the phrase "lighten up" so many, many times today...

I don't think most people are quite ready to "lighten up" after last night's show. Perhaps people are more interested in substantive conversation than "Clark/Dean is a Nazi and can't win" crap. It certainly is starting to stink up the board in p/c.

[EXE619K]

29. It really doesn't matter what you folks say.....

I still believe General Dean's chances over Governor Clark.

Reverend Kerry might be my second choice, but Senator Sharpton should not be discounted.




DEAN LEADS THE WAY!

[Renew Deal]

32. Finaly, A voice of reason.

O8)

[Hoppin_Mad]

34. SAY IT LOUD ! :-) -nt-

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

43. Great quote. Would you mind posting this in the Dean can't win thread?

Thanks :hi:

I sent letters for Dean to Iowa today. Thought I'd check out P/C tonight for a little break and whammo another Dean can't win thread. Wadda ya know? ;)

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

80. Sorry

I haven't been to the "Dean can't win" thread.

I'm not going to say I never go to a thread that has "Dean" in the heading, but for the most part I visit threads about my candidate.

I've found way too many of them are posted by supporters of other candidates, but I imagine that can be said for all threads about all the candidates...at least the ones that were on GD 2004 Primaries.

It seems the flame bait hasn't stopped just because that particular forum went up in smoke.

Makes no sense to me...I just thought it might be nice to make Skinner's (and the other mods) job a bit easier so thought I'd mention the request.

I guess that makes me the fool. :shrug:

[LuminousX]

49. mzmolly raises a good point, would you mind reciprocating

and posting that in the DEAN CAN'T WIN thread?

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

81. See my response to post #43 n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

42. Well,

so much for giving GD2004 a time out. It's just too irresistable isn't it?:evilfrown:

[mzmolly]

44. It's amazing all the sadness that this thread generates while the "OTHER"

thread got much support. Any thoughts?

[jmaier]

48. one final note

I checked out the posters on the 'OTHER' thread. Only a couple of known Clark supporters. One said something positive about Clark, nothing about Dean. The other (kayleybeth) basically told the thread author that this wasn't appreciated. The only 'rabid' Clark supporter I could readily identify was the newbie author him/herself.

Okay, I'm done!

Peace.

[mzmolly]

52. Couple new Clarkies, couple of old ones and a couple of others to boot...

Additionally, this is one of many thread of this nature.

Peace to you also. :hi:

[Crunchy Frog]

54. I only responded to this one

because it happened to be the one that I clicked on. I feel exactly the same way about people pulling that shit on Dean. This kind of thing is inappropriate for this forum.:shrug:

[Hoppin_Mad]

46. Slogan 1 'Clark - there are stars on his shoulders - stars in his eyes'

:-)

[Hoppin_Mad]

51. Slogan 2 'Clark - When you want a Democrat with a splash of Republican'

:-)

[mzmolly]

53. he he

Or, a Republican with a splash of Democrat? ;)

Night folks :hi: Off to watch the daily show.

[John_H]

56. slogan 3--"Dean: He'll lose by a more than a neck."

[John_H]

55. how weak is weak? Read the original post and weep.

So the best the dean camp can come up with is that dems will stay home? Jeez. You mean like Bush's compassioate conservatie crap made the right wing stay home? (their turnout was 85 percent, 96 percent for bush).

LOL! Certainly rove is going to do several times better than your "strategy", but Clark gets rid of the issue Chimp will use to beat Dean by ten. If all Rove has is some bizzarro scheme to try to make dems stay home, we win by fifteen.

I do enjoy the wacky dean supporter strategy of taking Dean's most glaring faults and trying to transfer them onto other candidates. The best partis these attacks are usually so bizzaro (this one is surpassed only by the thread that attacks Clark for not knowingly promoting gays in the dont ask don't tell Army) make the charges against dean seem more credible than ever. For that I, as a Clark guy, thank you!

[mzmolly]

59. I read the original story...many time HERE and I laughed

However, If you'll read the issues above, they haven't been addressed, not once. IN fact, it doesn't appear that YOU'VE read them at all.

Especially check out the parts where Clark says what a grand guy Bush is. Those are sure fire campaign commercials in the General Election, and their on tape ;)

BTW, I didn't transfer faults, I raised new concerns. Apparently you haven't considered them and/or bothered to read my post?

[mikehiggins]

72. Raised "new" concerns? Hardly

Its the same old, same old that has been posted here over and over again. Its enough to make us suspect the Dean supporters are suffering from short term memory loss.

I can't even venture to guess how many times the "Clark supported Republicans" thing has been discussed here. How many times the "Clark waffled on the War" thing has shown up. "Clark isn't a REAL Democrat".

Even the "if you don't nominate Dean we're going to take our bat and ball and stay home, or support a third party, or hold our breath until we turn blue" stuff is old hat around here.

Do you really believe that stuff or are you just trying your hardest to win over a few more key DU votes for your guy? I mean, I could accept the second option. We all play to win; that's part of the American way! But we do try to avoid looking silly, for the most part.

For me, the most telling video would be Howard Dean sitting in front of a microphone and saying that Clark is a nice guy but he's a republican. That's the kind of thing a new, improved Democrat should be proud of.

[bitchkitty]

67. Wishful thinking:

"Clark gets rid of the issue Chimp will use to beat Dean by ten"

Yes, the Iraq war is going so well, especially since O'Neill ratted them out.

I won't hang my hopes on a few medals and pretty speeches by the same man who made pretty speeches for the enemy. Keep your war dog, I'll take a President over a general any day.

[bain_sidhe]

58. If you think you're beaten, you are

Please stop saying Clark is unelectable. What if he turns out to be the nominee?

If you think you are beaten, you are;
If you think you dare not, you don’t.
If you’d like to win, but think you can’t,
It’s almost a cinch you won’t.
If you think you’ll lose, you’re lost,
For out in the world we find
Success begins with a fellow’s will;
It’s all in the state of mind.

If you think you’re outclassed, you are;
You’ve got to think high to rise.
You’ve got to be sure of yourself before
You can ever win a prize.
Life’s battles don’t always go
To the stronger or faster man;
But soon or late the man who wins
Is the one who thinks he can.

--WALTER D. WINTLE, “The Man Who Thinks He Can.”

[mzmolly]

60. Good point, do share it with the General you support because he's said it

about the current front runner. Howard Dean. ;)

Additionally, Clark supporters say that very thing here daily about Howard Dean. It's poppycock!

[bain_sidhe]

64. Check the Dean thread

I said the exact same thing there. (edited to add: And I said it there BEFORE I said it here.) And, to the best of my recollection Clark never said Dean *couldn't* win, no matter how hard the interviewers tried to MAKE him say it. He said he believed someone with foreign policy experience had to be at the top of the ticket. A nuanced statement, to be sure, but a far cry from calling Dean "unelectable."

If you have a link to somewhere where he DID say it, I'd be happy to revise my claim.

[Josh]

61. Eisenhower, Korea, 1952

They didn't 'replace' Truman 'cause he didn't run, and he wasn't popular either, but there's an example of a general with no political experience being elected in the middle of a war.

[Cheswick2.0]

62. I agree

He is hopeless. Give people a chance and they will vote for the PNAC candidate they already know.

[LuminousX]

63. Who is Wesley Clark?

[davidinalameda]

93. Rhode Scholar, West Point Graduate

NATO Commander in Yugoslavia

that's just for starters

[mikehiggins]

66. Well, there you go again...

As Ronnie Raegan sometimes said.

It amazes me to see how terrified everyone is of Karl Rove. He is just another political operative like Trippi and the rest who knows how to package his product to make it attractive to enough people to win an election. And even then his campaign lost to the Gore people and it took the Supreme Court to put Bozo into the White House.

Had the GOP not been facing a historically inept and poorly organised opposition (I mean, Gore lost his home state of Tennessee!) Rove'd allready be out of a job for the last three years. Up until now he has been up against an opposition that didn't oppose; opponents that didn't have the will to fight.

Those days are over.

In Clark the Democratic party has a candidate who can speak with authority to subjects near and dear to Bush's base, giving them a legitimate opportunity to vote for someone other than Bush without making them feel like doing so would benefit them damn lib'ruls.

Every vote Clark gets would be two votes, a new one for the Democrats and one the GOP counts on that would not go their way. How many such voters will Dean or Kerry attract?

Attacks? There are always attacks. Remember Willie Horton?

The secret is to turn them to your advantage. Did Clark say things in the past that were supportive of the administration? Sure. So did most everyone else in the country.

Did the administration let Clark down? Sure, just like they did almost everyone else in the country.

The variations are too widespread to even attempt to get into here.

If you think Clark is somehow specially vulnerable to attack by Rove you are totally wrong. If you think people will attack Clark with impunity, without getting bloodied in the process, you are even more wrong. Wake up and smell the coffee, Mz.

Wes Clark is this party's best chance at a win in November. Its a shame you can't see that. Over the next few months we'll see which side of this argument wins out with the voters.

That's where the truth will come out.

[Leilani]

68. I'm sure you don't know

but, "Perfumed Prince" term comes from Colonel David Hackworth, who is backing Clark.

Perfumed Prince is a favorite freeper term; is that where you picked it up?

[Bread and Circus]

71. Sorry you feel this way, cold logic would indicate otherwise.

[edzontar]

75. Clark is an empty uniform, hand-picked to lose....

By the Clintons.

Dems who want to WIN in 04 support Dean or any one of the other tried and true Dem candidates.

Clark is a Trojan horse.

Great post--thanks!

[Tim_in_HK]

79. Are you . . .

Dick Morris? j/k

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

83. I always love these

Clinton is the enemy responses.

They usually arrive shortly after the Clark is a Republican meme.

So I guess that means CLINTON IS A REPUBLICAN.

Wow...who'da thunk it?

:crazy:

[edzontar]

86. The Clinton stalking-horse theory has yet to be refuted...

Maybe I'm paranoid or gullible, but that is the argument that has me most bothered regarding Clark.

So help me out--i used to like him...

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

87. I see

no refutation equals "must be true".

I imagine there's some convoluted logic there, but I hope you will understand that I've yet to figure it out.

Sorry edzontar, I'm not the one who can "help you out". I could list all my reasons for my support of Wes & still never make you change your mind.

Your reasons for deciding you don't like Clark have run the gamut over the past few weeks from "some of his supporters" to the stalking horse meme" and all points in between.

Let's be honest...you're not looking for a reason to "like" him. If you were really doing so you'd be watching him not the anti Clark threads on DU.

Prove to me that I'm wrong on this.

Peace

[LTR]

76. Inflammatory posts like this do not make me think less of Clark

But it surely makes me think less of YOUR candidate.

If I want that kind of nastiness and negativity, I'd just as soon vote for Bush.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[floridaguy]

92. Why am I not surprised by a temper problem and bad logic? (n/t)

[GOPBasher]

77. I disagree.

I think Clark is the most electable of our candidates. Having said that, if your guy wins, I'll support him 100%.

[TrueAmerican]

82. Desperate Times, Desperate Measures

It's almost SAD the way the Dean campaign has crashed.

[Democrats unite]

84. Want to talk about a sure loser...

Just look at the latest poll numbers, Dean is starting to get his but kicked by non other than Kerry! There's a sure loser for ya!

[Hawkeye-X]

88. kick

:kick:

More discussion on this important topic.

[BrokenSegue]

90. Hmm...

I agree he probably won't win but...
what about Reagan? He had very little experience yet he might get on the dime.
He could win by pushing his military experience but I feel he could be a good VP. to Edwards maybe?

[php1949]

91. All the items you mention will help Clark get elected

Every time someone mentions that Clark only became a democrat last year, a few hundred Reagan democrats become Clark supporters. He also has a degree in economics and has a concise, detailed domestic agenda, which he speaks passionately about. Don't get me wrong; if I could pick the best president, it would be Kucinich, followed by Dean. I also think it IS possible for Dean to beat Bush. The problem is really with the cheating that the republicans will do. We can't have a close election. We need to win by a landslide, or the republicans will cheat their way into another 4 years.