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Reminder: Million Moms March May 9 - Mothers Day Washington, DC

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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:27 PM
Original message
Reminder: Million Moms March May 9 - Mothers Day Washington, DC
Edited on Fri May-07-04 02:28 PM by Iceburg
The Million Mom March is a march standing against gun violence and the devastation it causes. To find out more, go to: http://www.mmm2004.com




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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Far more Americans die from America's weak gun laws and even
weaker enforcement than from terrorism.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And for every person who dies at the hands of a terrorist...
THIRTY die at the hands of a drunk driver.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Not so...
the gun show loophole is gaping wide open, the assault weapons ban needs to be renewed and strengthened, and the gun industry must be held responsible for its irresponsible practices.

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nothing Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Personal responsibility
Why do we always have to blame someone else for our problems? Very rarely has the "gun" industry done anything irresponsible. I've yet to see where the industry was at fault for a crime or negligent shooting. If someone commits a crime with a firearm, they are responsible. If they get shot committing a crime with a firearm tough titty, why sue the person defending himself? Personal responsibility seems to be a bad word in America now. I love how the big tobacco companies are responsible for smokers. I smoked for 10 years, quit and have nobody to blame but myself. Joe Camel just wasn't that cool. The other day at that evil place called "church" and it was Catholic which makes it even more "evil" I saw a sign on the playground disclaiming any responsibility to children getting hurt if using the equipment outside of a school function. Because parents are too lazy to monitor their kids and too willing to accept that children bump their heads and fall off ladders they get sue happy. I haven't seen any criminals with guns follow the law. I don't expect more laws to remedy that. Gun laws make victims of law abiding citizens. Gun laws place the responsibility of protecting ourselves on Law Enforcement that is usually too far away to actually protect us.

Now, will you do me the kind favor of explaining the infamous "gun show loophole" that is so dear to those against the second amendment?
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noahmijo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. I still think that current gun laws needs to be enforced more
Before we start screaming that new gun laws are the solution. If we can't enforce our current laws how are we supposed to enforce new ones?
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I like the way Rep. Dingell put it.
August 1, 2000



The Honorable Janet Reno

Attorney General

Department of Justice

950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20530

Dear Attorney General Reno:

I read with great interest Deputy Attorney General Eric Holder’s June 4, 2000, announcement regarding the release of two Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) reports on Federal Firearm Offenders and Background Checks for Firearm Transfers. As you are aware, effective and timely enforcement of our nation’s federal firearms laws is of tremendous importance to the Congress. As we continue to look for effective strategies to prevent firearms from falling into the wrong hands and reduce gun violence, reports such as these are useful in evaluating the progress of the Administration on this front.

As Mr. Holder notes in his statement, "the Brady Law has stopped 536,000 felons, fugitives, domestic abusers, and other persons not legally allowed to have a gun from getting a gun." This is indeed an impressive record. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) is one of the most effective tools we have to crack down on gun criminals and prevent crime. However, stopping the sale of a firearm to a prohibited person is only one component of an effective strategy to reduce violent criminal behavior. Prosecuting those felons, fugitives and domestic abusers who attempt to purchase a firearm is the other half of the equation.

The BJS report on Firearm Offenders states that an average of 6,700 defendants were charged with a firearm offense in U.S. district courts between 1992 and 1999. On its face, that number of prosecutions seems incredibly low given the number of prohibited persons stopped by the instant check system. An analysis of the BJS reports confirms that the number of federal prosecutions is severely inadequate.

As you are aware, 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6) makes the attempted purchase of a firearm by an individual who knowingly provides false information on a firearm transfer application (ATF Form 4473) a federal felony offense. In simple terms, it is a federal felony, punishable for up to ten years in prison, for felons, fugitives, domestic abusers or any other category of prohibited person to attempt to purchase a firearm if they knowingly falsify the purchase application.

Of the 204,000 attempted purchases stopped by NICS in 1999, the BJS report states that 71 percent of the rejections were for a felony conviction or indictment, 12 percent were for a disqualifying domestic violence conviction and three percent were rejected because the applicant was a fugitive from justice. Thus, 86 percent (approximately 175,440 persons) of those rejected by the instant check system had de facto committed another felony by falsifying ATF Form 4473. However, federal firearm prosecutions in aggregate totaled only 6,728. Although the report indicated the statistics for 1999 are preliminary data, that is a prosecution rate of only 3.29 percent. To put it another way, for every thirty rejected applications for a firearm transfer, there was only one prosecution.

If we are to concern ourselves with 1998, the latest year for which we have final data, the record is demonstrably worse. Of the rejected applications, totaling 90,000 in 1998, a mere 102 cases were federally prosecuted. That equates to a prosecution rate of less than one percent. Thus in 1998, for every 882 rejected applications for a firearm transfer there was only one federal prosecution. And while some have made the case that these cases are difficult to prosecute, I would note the statement of former federal prosecutor Andrew McBride of the Richmond office, now in private practice, that such cases are as easy to prosecute as "picking change up off the street."

Needless to say, these statistics are less than impressive. It is not hard to understand why this Administration has been criticized for being lax in enforcing existing federal firearm laws. In an effort to better understand why the Department of Justice is not doing more to prosecute violations of 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6), I would appreciate your answers to the following questions:

Some of the reasons for this poor prosecutorial record are indicated in the BJS Federal Firearm Offenders report. Citing table 1,"Firearm suspects declined for prosecution by U.S. attorneys, by reason for declination, 1998," some of the reasons listed for not prosecuting known gun criminals include: minimal federal interest and DOJ/U.S. Attorney policy. I find this very curious. Please tell me:
What exactly is the policy for prosecuting violations of 18 U.S.C(a)(6)?

Why there would be a DOJ/U.S. Attorney policy not to prosecute those who violate federal firearms laws?

Why there would be "minimal federal interest" in prosecuting those who violate federal firearm laws?

Another reason that was cited in table 1 for declining to prosecute was "weak evidence." Without knowing the facts of each individual case, I would note the following: If an individual knowingly makes a false statement on ATF Form 4473, that is a felony. Form 4473 requires the prospective purchaser to state whether or not he/she is disqualified from purchasing a firearm. Furthermore, each disqualifying criterion is listed on Form 4473 and requires a yes or no answer. Form 4473 also requires a signature by the prospective purchaser and the seller. Form 4473 also requires many other identifiers to verify the identity of the transferee. Thus, if an individual is rejected because NICS system reports that a prospective purchaser is a convicted felon and falsified a document in an attempt to obtain a firearm, that is a violation of U.S.C. 922(a)(6). It seems to me that this should be a relatively open and shut case.
However, of the 204,000 individuals denied the purchase of firearm "nearly 3 out of 4 rejections for firearm transfer occurred because the applicant either had a felony conviction or was under felony indictment." Therefore, it follows that over 150,000 individuals committed a federal felony by falsifying ATF Form 4473. Yet, a February, 2000 General Accounting Office report on the Implementation of NICS showed that in FY 1999, U.S Attorneys filed only 278 cases involving alleged false statements of 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6) and 316 cases were pending at fiscal yearend. Please explain the lack of federal prosecutions for false statements on ATF Form 4473. Also explain towhat degree "weak evidence" contributes to the unwillingness of U.S. Attorneys to prosecute 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6) violations.

Appendix III of the GAO audit describes federal enforcement policies regarding falsified firearm purchase applications. It states:
In November 1998, EOUSA provided Brady Act prosecutive guidance . . . The guidance stated that thousands of potential Brady false-form cases would likely reach ATF field offices annually, and that the system "would grind to a halt if ATF investigated all the denials."

The report goes on to say that the EOUSA guidance recommended that U.S. Attorneys should "make every effort to increase the number of Brady false-form prosecutions (from the current annual level of 50 cases)."

The GAO audit also states that in deciding which false form violations to forward to U.S. Attorneys, ATF’s policy is to refer those cases where the "denied purchaser’s criminal history has records of violent felonies, serious drug trafficking, or prior firearms convictions." Yet the GAO report indicates that over half of the referrals of violent criminals were closed without investigation or prosecution.

In light of these GAO findings, I would like answers to the following:

Why were half of the referrals of violent criminals closed without investigation or prosecution?
What efforts has the Department of Justice undertaken to increase the number of false form prosecutions? Has EOUSA issued any additional guidance regarding 18 U.S.C. (a)(6) violations?
Since November 1998, how many 18 U.S.C. (a)(6) violations have been referred to U.S. Attorneys by ATF field offices?
How many 18 U.S.C. (a)(6) false form prosecutions have U.S. Attorneys undertaken since the November 1998 EOUSA guidance?
I do not believe that violent felons, upon learning they are disqualified from firearm ownership, give up their search to obtain a firearm. Please explain why U.S. Attorneys are unwilling to enforce 18 U.S.C. (a)(6) even for violent felons who attempt to purchase firearms?
At a June 21, 2000, hearing at the Senate Judiciary Committee regarding improvements to NICS, Mr. David Loesch, Assistant Director in charge of the Criminal Justice Information Services Division of the FBI testified that the law prohibiting felonious misrepresentation of firearm eligibility "is essentially unenforceable." Would you please expand on this statement and explain why your representative characterized this law as such? Do you share the view that this law is unenforceable? Please comment on the enforceability of U.S.C. 18 (a)(6) in all its specifics and in general.
Your attention to this matter is greatly appreciated. I look forward to your response. If you have any questions about this matter, please have your staff contact Michael Hacker of my office at (202) 225-4071.

With every good wish,



Sincerely,





John D. Dingell

Member of Congress


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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Sorry, too many "misrepresentations" by Sarah Brady
... and too many other better causes this election year that have shown real measurable results or have the potential for greater good for all of us.

Her hot button this year is renewing the assault weapons ban that, according to her own spokesperson Tom Diaz, is merely cosmetic and hasn't really had any impact on crime or criminals that favor handguns over rifles anyway.

For non-gun interested people, the Assault Weapons Ban has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with machine guns. Machine guns were regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

They use buzzwords and phrases like "bullet hoses" and "spray from the hip" in the hopes of scaring people that don't know better into contributing. They bring up the Columbine tragedy and forget to mention their ban had already been in place for 4 years when it happened.

Try enforcing the 20,000 laws we already have at the Federal, Satate and Local levels before you throw another batch on the backs of law abiding gun owners that will be ignored by the criminals anyway.

It's still a free country, well sort of anyway, and go if you want, but at least know the facts before you start writing checks to these two former (and still are as far as I can tell) registered Republican's, Jim and Sarah Brady.



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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well put, DonP. Have you had the chance to review Kerry's...
...website where he addresses the gun issue? I plan to snail mail him some suggestions and point out that the Brady Bunch statistics are not helping him any out this way. I also plan to include my membership card and a note asking why I, or the other four million politically active members of the NRA, should vote for him since he obviously does not like us.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Gee, Jay, the NRA held a "Pimp for the Chimp" rally just last week
"why I, or the other four million politically active members of the NRA, should vote for him "
Hell, jay, guess your guns are more important than the good of the country

"PITTSBURGH -- A man whose son was killed in the Columbine High School shootings literally walked in his child's shoes to the National Rifle Association convention, where he hoped Vice President Dick Cheney would address the federal assault weapons ban set to expire in September.
Tom Mauser, whose son Daniel was killed with an assault weapon in the Littleton, Colo., killings five years ago Tuesday, said continuing the ban is common sense.
Assault weapons "are the weapons of gangs, drug lords and sick people," Mauser said before his three-block march to the convention, which runs through Sunday. "It is a weapon of war and we don't want this war on our streets."
Mauser entered the convention hall where the NRA was meeting, but was turned away by a security guard as several conventioneers applauded. A couple of conventioneers yelled "Get a life" and "Vote for Bush." "

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3015989/detail.html
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JayS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Can you think of a reason why they would? Why would...
...the NRA support a candidate that goes out of his way to say he hates the NRA?

And you have already been shown enough times that these "assault weapons" are just regular guns that look scary.

And as you also already know, my position on the gun issue and pro-gun candidates involves little about guns.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Speaking of misrepresentations...
The VPC is supporting the proposal currently in Congress to renew and strengthen the AWB...as is the Brady Center. As are John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, most other Democrats and a majority of voters. Opposed, Tom DeLay and a bunch of scummy right wing extremists.

"For non-gun interested people, the Assault Weapons Ban has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with machine guns."
It has to do with assault weapons of the sort that can be converted into machine guns pretty easily...as well as to a whole bunch of other military style weapons with no legitimate civilian purpose.

"at least know the facts"
And the best way to do that is to ignore gun nut propaganda.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-07-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Suuuure it does
"...It has to do with assault weapons of the sort that can be converted into machine guns pretty easily..."

Ah yes, another golden oldie from the Sarah Brady stack of myths.

Want to tell us all how "easily" that's done ... with out a fully equipped machine shop and the skills to use it? A couple of paper clips and a wad of gum maybe?

Oh, and do it without breaking several felony level Federal laws already in place that guarranty you 10 years in club fed along with a 6 figure fine?

Or maybe about how easy it is to just buy the parts to do it ... at a gun show that you've never actually been to?

How much are those: "Easy-to-use-kitchen-table-build-your-own-Uzi/AK47 (insert scary gun name here) -at-home-kits" going for these days anyway?

Those of us that actually have been to gun shows never seem to be able to find them. But they must be there because Sarah Brady said so.

"converted into machine guns pretty easily" - Yeah, right.

Another nice lie put out by the Brady team and their less than informed spokescreatures. Of course there is no evidence of this, just trust them ... oh, and be sure to send Sarah a check - for the children - and her expense account.

They count on ignorance and sadly, there are always seem to be no shortage of folks to oblige them that won't take the time to look at both sides of the issue.

Legal gun ownership and use; for hunting, target shooting and home or personal defense is as much a Democrat issue as it is anyone else's.

One more time folks: The Assault Weapons Ban is NOT about machine guns. Don't let anyone tell you anything different.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Are you still spewing that "easy" machinegun conversion nonsense?
I thought we dealt with that on J/PS a couple of weeks ago, when you claimed (falsely) that machinegun conversion kits were readily available at gun shows AND perfectly legal:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x50058#53363

Of course, you are perfectly wrong:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter37.txt
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. Any Web cam links to the west lawn???
None of the TV news feeds have shown images of the crowd. Rep. McCarthy was just interviewed on CNN.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-09-04 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
15. MMM has an image problem
One of the leaders of the Million Mom March told Chris Matthews on Hardball that assault weapons are "weapons of mass destruction." To me, it sounds like she's grasing for straws - owning an AK-47 is nowhere even close to hoarding a cannister of VX nerve gas or weapons-grade anthrax spores, and she should have known better than to make such a ridiculous statement.

I support sensible gun laws. I too want to see fewer young victims of gun violence. But renewing the ban on assault weapons is not part of the solution - it will only cost Kerry votes in November and help to keep gun-grabbing * in the White House.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-10-04 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
16. BBC Estimates the "crowd" as 2,000 to 2,500
Only in DC would 2,000 = 1,000,000.

They must have had the same accountants that Bush uses for appropriations or the Enron used for profit calculation. I can't wait to see how they spin this one.

You know you have a problem when even C-Span decides your event isn't worth covering and it's right outside their offices ont he mall.

Bye, bye so called "assault" weapons ban.
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