Wow. Major implosion with Maestro and Dad. Long, cathartic ramblings

[Maestro]

My father and I have always had a rocky relationship. I took care of him during his drunken tirades as a teenager, after I had suffered disappointment after disappointment from him as a drunk an all around poor father. I watered down his JD as a kid so he wouldn't get so stinkin' drunk in the evenings. I caught him cheating on my mother when she was out of town when I was in college. I found him in our pool naked with this woman. Fun times, eh? At that moment, I had it out with him. I let him have it. He said he would change. A few weeks later, I got a call from my mom that said that my father was ill. He eventually suffered a nervous breakdown, probably from guilt. He also developed a heart problem at the same time. He was told to stop drinking and 15 years later or so he finally consented to be put on anti-anxiety/anti-depression medication. I have no idea if he still takes it.

Anyhow, he is a military veteran, 21 years in the Navy and another 20 in the civilian world. He was a pilot in Viet Nam, conservative, but while growing up, I wouldn't say whacko conservative, but conservative. He voted for Nixon, and Ford and didn't care for Carter. I am sure he voted for Ray Gun both times but he always chastised his name for cutting military retirement to pay for his Star Wars and other (illegal) cold war activities. He despised gays. As a kid, I followed some of his defects. I drank a ton. I was unsure about GLBT issues, but I soon found out that drinking really wasn't for me and after finding out that one of my friends was gay, I realized that gay and lesbians were not evil, perverted people. My prom date was a lesbian too. At the time, she was one of the smartest people I knew and gorgeous. If only she hadn't been gay. In short, as an older teenager and young adult I quickly changed the way I looked at the world in direct opposition to my father so we drifted even further apart. We were civil to each other but never close. Then I got married and had kids, got cancer, got rid of cancer, they moved out to where I am to be closer to the grandkids and help us with day care. Things were smooth but the damage had been done earlier. Again we were civil but never close.

Going back to the mid nineties I became very politically involved as a progressive democrat. Again, not what dad would like I am sure. I was a teacher and took on the fight for language minority children and education in general. (You might wonder why I am telling you this. It will make sense if you stay with me). I was married by now and my parents love my wife. Things were good, but I was getting very frustrated politically as I was suffering verbal attacks from whackos in my school, in the community etc... I had several articles printed in the OP ED section of the trash paper, The Dallas Morning News. I had articles and editorials printed in education journals and I spoke at several large, statewide conferences. I had a website for my class that had a huge section of research on reading, Bilingual and ESL issues. I went on local radio and TV and debated whack jobs against what I did in education, conservative nuts really. But in 2000, my first child was born and I did not want to continue so actively as I had more important things on which I should focus. Also in 2000 I was voted bilingual teacher of the year for the whole N. Texas region and I was a finalist for the Texas State Bilingual Teacher of the Year as well. I say this to show you that public education, with all its defects, is important to me, period. I am now an assistant principal and value my job even though it is highly stressful and, at times, extremely frustrating and overwhelming!

So today, as I pick up my kids at my parents' house, I notice my dad had some books on the kitchen table that he was studying for his bible class. The name of the book is The Lie: Evolution by Ken Hamm or Ham. I can't remember. I held the book up and said, "Seriously?" They know that I am a strong proponent against anything but evolution being taught in public schools. My mom and dad both looked at me. Then I said, "I'm sorry. I believe that dinosaurs roamed the Earth millions of years ago." My parents said that they believed that too. I said, "Good." My father, still calm, handed me a book to read on bridging religion and science. I took it because I do not mind reading about the subject. Anyhow, my mom and I kept talking about it and why I reject creationism, calmly too. Then my father became unhinged, and I mean unhinged. He turned into a monster. You should have seen the anger in his face! He mumbled something about teaching kids to be zombies. Well, given my background in education, I said, "What?" With a smile on my face mind you. My mother said, "Ignore him." I replied, "No. Dad, did you say zombies?" At this point he became another person.

Remember that religious nut that freaked out on that insane, stupid wife swapping show? Those were the eyes and tone my father took with me. He screamed, "Yes, I said zombies!"

The conversation degenerated from there. I only responded in spurts as he was yelling that I may go to hell but I am not taking my kids. He told me I was a sociopath, an incredibly unhappy person, I was not welcomed in his house any more and he never wants to see me again. So I am stunned. I can't really say that I care that he doesn't want to see me, but he did this in front of my kids. They heard it. My mother got them out to the car so they didn't see the confrontation really but they certainly heard it. They are already talking to me about it. My mother and I tried to talk in the garage. She apologized for him. Said he was at fault, but that he really loves me deep down inside. This is also the same thing that she told as a teenager and he was a drunken fool throwing empty beer bottles at the neighbors who he considered more successful than he while I corralled him, threw him to the ground and eventually got him back inside. Nice job for a 16, 17 and 18 year old, right? No wonder, I left at 18 and never came back. My parents have always provided for me. Physically, except for spankings, my father never really hit me, but mentally, I can't take him. He's over the top! He's sick I guess. I don't know. He just can't accept that I do not think like him, at all!

If you are still with me, thank you. This has been good for me to write it down. It probably doesn't make sense, but my stomach and head both hurt.

P.S. As I was leaving my parents' house my father was trying to get in his car like an enraged maniac. My mom was trying to stop him. She told me to leave or I would have helped by doing what I always did when he was drunk, but I just left. My wife immediately went over there when I got home to see if she could help my mom. The car was gone and the house locked up so I am sure she told him that he was not going anywhere without her. So now they have both been gone now for at least an hour and a half.

[Whoa_Nelly]

1. Am sorry you have that grief

and that your kids had to be involved in it, both through you dad's rant about not letting them be zombies, and that they had to hear some of what went down.

Let us know when your folks are back home safely. Am sure you are quite worried.

[Maestro]

8. Thanks.

My kids were upset. My 8 year old was more upset than my 6 year old. I think they will be alright. I just told them that Papaw was sick and was not feeling well. My mom can control my father so I bet they went out to eat so that he could calm down. I'm not sure.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear maestro...

Wow, you've had quite a time with him.

You have my complete, and I do mean COMPLETE, sympathies...I'm not sure what your next step should be. I've never had this kind of trouble with my parents, and I am not competent to advise you.

Just know that anytime you want to vent, or rant, I'm here for you.

I mean that.

What a waste of life your dad's is. I feel sorry for him in a way. Some of what's happened to him is his fault and some of it isn't. Perhaps his attitudes came from how he was treated as a boy. I don't know.

I hope you feel better...

Take care of yourself and know that you do not deserve what he has done to you...

[Maestro]

11. Ironically, I am first to admit that my father is a genius.

He received bachelor's of science in math. Before he went off the deep end with religion he read algebra books for fun! I am guessing his mathematical IQ must be between 130 and 160. However, like many highly intelligent people that I know, he has no common sense. He barely could drive a car. Everybody hated driving in the car with him. As a child, I remember him repeating whole conversations he had just had with other adults analyzing the conversation and berating himself for something he said. It was completely baffling. His drinking started because of his low self-esteem I guess. Strange thing, he is much sober now. The last time I saw him drunk was with me ironically. I helped him move from where they lived in southern Dallas County to where we are now and the day we moved a buddy of mine, my dad and I all drank that day. I stayed quite sober but my buddy and my dad were blitzed. That was two years ago. Now, he obviously is just mentally ill.

[Canuckistanian]

3. As a person with an irrational father, I feel for you

I won't go into the problems with my father, but suffice to say we're VERY estranged. I've written about them here before.

I was surprised at your father's vitriol on a subject that's VERY controversial. People have their beliefs, but they should NEVER let those beliefs destroy life-long relationships.

It's too bad he didn't offer an "agree to disagree" arrangement. His behaviour was DEFINITELY over the top.

[Maestro]

15. He was definitely not in his right mind. I am not sure if

his medication is off causing this and because of some pent-up rage against me and my beliefs he just "lost" it. The more I think about it the madder I get. It's horrific to say, but if he had a heart attack and died tonight I am not sure I'd miss him.

[Canuckistanian]

17. Don't do anything rash

He may regret his actions.

At the very least, wait and talk to your mom.

[Maestro]

21. I won't.

Just trying to calm down. It's been four hours now and I am still extremely upset.

[khashka]

4. Your father is very vey sick

I'm sorry. But you have done very well. I'm proud of you!



Khash.

[Maestro]

16. Thanks Khash

Appreciate you taking the time to comment.

[TZ]

5. My goodness

I so sympathize with you. You father is pretty obviously ill. I had a sister that flew off the handle in the same way..She ended up in a psych ward, involuntarily. I hope your mother gets some help for him. For now, the best thing you can do is stay out of it, since it seems you may have been the trigger.
Lets us know how this turns out...

[Maestro]

19. I'll keep you informed.

He is under constant medical care because of his heart condition, but he needs a psychologist or something. He apparently has turned into exactly the type of Christian I can't stand apparently.

[Haole Girl]

6. Oh, Maestro

It's a terrible cycle. And I am so sorry you and your whole family have to go through this. I wish your father would get the help he obviously needs. I wish I had more comforting words for you today. I'll say this: when you said it probably doesn't make sense (your post), you are not completely correct... many of us do understand. My mother was terribly abusive (verbally). Both of her parents were alcoholics. Your post was good timing for me, since I decided - on my own - that drinking was not doing a bit of good for me, personally. Though, ironically, I was tempted to drink tonight (I've had a pretty rough day). Now I wouldn't dream of it. I thank you for the reminder-- alcoholics, including dry alcoholics, can do so much harm to others. I'm so sorry. Hugs for you...

[Maestro]

20. Alcohol is definitely not the answer.

I think many of my dad's problems stem from his parents as well. His two bothers had/have their problems. One died in his sixties morbidly obese. He drowned his problems in food. The other one was a chain smoker and drinker and a loner in California. He's also the uncle with whom I have had huge political arguments. He's a big freeper! I wrote about him here. He now has moved to be closer to family since he has no one in his life. He never married. I'm just trying to make I do not turn out like any of them. My mom's family is awesome but very small. When her dad died I wrote about him too.

[Haole Girl]

22. Your life won't be like his, I know it.

p.s., Thanks for the links. I loved those old photos... you look so much like your grandfather did when he was young!

[mainegreen]

7. Ung. That's awful.

So sorry.

[Maestro]

23. Thanks

He needs help. His family has a history of strange behavior. Thank goodness for my mom's side of the family who are all just great individuals.

[malta blue]

9. I'm sorry Maestro.

[Maestro]

24. Thanks malta blue

It was completely unexpected. After what he told me, even in anger, our relationship I fear is permanently damaged.

[malta blue]

45. I would never judge you for doing what you feel is right, I am

so sorry.

[femmocrat]

10. So sorry, Maestro.

Your dad is obviously very ill. It's amazing that your mom has put up with the abuse all these years. I feel really sorry for her... but there is something that keeps her there.

IMO, you and your dad have a very toxic relationship and you would be better off steering clear of him. It's really a shame for all of you. IMO, you should make other arrangements for your children's daycare and just see your mother without him.

Families are so complicated. Hope it works out for you with some time and distance away from him.

[Maestro]

25. Families are complicated!

My mother takes care of the kids. He really doesn't do anything with them alone. He has always been good to them except for what he did yesterday in front of them. And I have had it with him. I will be steering clear of him. Don't worry. As far as my mom goes, there is no advice I can give her. As a teenager and young adult I told her to leave him but she wouldn't.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. I'm so sorry that your kids witnessed that.

I'm sorry for you to have this history but as adults we can take it better than kids. It's good that your kids are talking to you about it though. They may struggle to understand how angry and nasty words are a sign of illness but they'll come to understand it.

[Maestro]

28. Yes, that is the most distressing part.

I simply told them that Papaw was ill and he and I had argument as some adults will do. I told them that no matter what everyone loves them and they have nothing to worry about at all. Keep in mind that I have two very sensitive children. In fact, my six year old is so intellectually advanced, he actually told me last week that he was sad because sometimes he believed in God and other times he didn't. I was shocked. I have never talked to him about religion at all. My mom she has never talked to him either about so I am wondering what crap my dad has said to him.

[DeposeTheBoyKing]

13. I'm sorry you have to go through this, Maestro

I hope everything will work out and you and your father will have some peace. Your mother, too. Your wife is a gem for wanting to help your mom.

[Maestro]

34. Thanks DTBK.

I'm sure it all will. I had a long talk with mom late last night. She removed all fault on my part. She knows it was all my dad and that he could never ban me from the household, ever. She wouldn't allow it. She's meek, but don't cross her. She settled my dad down last night. She wants me to not shut him out. I basically told her to forget it. And yes, my wife is a gem!

[Elidor]

14. Rage is an illness

Some people get into it, can't walk away from it. It requires treatment of some kind. If your father was in his right mind, he wouldn't treat you this way.

"teaching kids to be zombies" - my sister has taught her two precious young children that dinosaurs didn't really exist; their bones were placed here to test man. They parrot this nonsense, along with "George W. Bush is a great man." They have so much going for them, but they are grossly handicapped by a fundamentalist religion that rejects science and philosophy in favor of a rigid, ignorant ideology. It's very sad to watch.

[Maestro]

38. I have no idea what is wrong with him.

He's been out of control but never this crazy. He seriously lost it and as usual I was the brunt of his aggression. I'm sorry to hear about your sister and kids. Fundamentalism is a terrible thing. I really think it rots the brain.

[hippywife]

18. As the child of a man

who can't seem to control his rage, I extend my sympathies for all you've had to deal with. I can definitely relate.

Is there any chance that your dad could also be diabetic? Mine is and when is sugar is up, that is when he is the most out of control.

[Maestro]

39. I've never thought of that. His blood is checked regularly because

of his heart condition, but that is an option. Thanks.

[Callalily]

26. How very very sad.

It's not easy growing up with an alcoholic father and an enabling mother. Speaking from experience here. Sometimes I feel robbed of a childhood, but that's my background, and I'm a stronger more compassionate person because of those experiences.

You sound like a good son, a good husband, and a good father.

Hope that you find peace, and hope that your parents find peace too!

[Maestro]

41. Thank you so much Simply Fugue

I appreciate the kind words.

[LaurenG]

27. I am sending good vibes Maestro

I grew up under "strange" parents. My dad's grandmother was a Nazarene tent preacher so you can imagine. My mom also decided to tell me that I was no longer a part of the family as well. It was over similarly stupid circumstances. The long story short my parents eventually overcame their small mindedness and took some leaps and we managed to overcome all the crazy history.

Hang in there, I think you are a wonderful person. I'm an admirer of yours and in fact when we gave out Valentine hearts I gave you some. I appreciate your beautiful photos and your kind heart.

[Maestro]

42. Hey, well thank you so much for that.

You are very sweet. I am also glad that you and your parents were able to come together. I fear it may be too late for me. I'm 40 and my dad is 70. Who knows, though?

[PassingFair]

29. Leave your children alone with him at your own peril.

I would have your mother come over and watch the
kids, I WOULD NOT leave them at his house.

Ever.

[Maestro]

40. He doesn't hate them. He hates me; however, I understand

where you are coming from. My mother would never let anything happen to them plus my brother and his family are next door. I don't fear their safety, physical safety, but I do have concerns about what he may be telling them. We'll see. Summer is here so they will not be back there without my supervision until August.

[applegrove]

30. So sorry for all the anger you have faced in your life from your dad.

You've done an amazing thing and broken the cycle in how you have your own healthy family life. Sounds like you have quite the wife there too.

[Maestro]

43. Thank you.

I told my mom last night that I learned from non-example how to be a good father. She agreed.

[Debi]

31. Maestro

wish that would make it all go away.

Be good to your kids - I'm sure you are - then history won't repeat itself.

just in case you need two.

[Maestro]

44. History will definitely not repeat. I am nothing like my father.

Only genetically, which is a bit scary, but I favor my mom's side of the family more and they are so easy-going! Thank you.

[Shine]

32. Wow, thanks for sharing your story, Maestro. That sounds rough.

First off, I'm really sorry your kids had to bear witness that your dad's dysfunctional rage. That totally sucks and I can certainly understand your upset.

I am of the personal belief that it's no accident we are born into the families we were born into and, on a soul level, we "choose" our parents (and kids) as much as they "choose" us, in order to grow and evolve in consciousness, as the spiritual beings we are. In other words, our families of origin give us the opportunity to grow, evolve, and move through a lot of emotional stuff....some of it obviously easier or harder than others. We are here to Heal those wounds, wake up to our connection with ALL, and remember Who we really are.

It's too bad that he appears so threatened by your perspective that he has to make YOU wrong and reject YOU for it. He has clearly so identified you with what you believe, he can't see the distinction and then that effects your relationship with him. I believe the emotional/spiritual task for you to Remember is: It's NOT about you, it's about HIM. and it's especially challenging when there's substance abuse involved. Talk about not being conscious!! He's numbing (and dumbing) down his emotional response and the ripples go out into the family.

I have a challenging relationship with my own mother, so I can relate to a lot of your experience...esp regarding the rigid religious thinking. I think she provides me with a great opportunity to practice Patience and Compassion. Lemme tell ya, depending on what time of the month it is, sometimes that's easier to do, than others! Seriously.

Anyway, bottom line: you (and we) are all doing the best we can in any given moment. We need to remember to be gentle with ourselves as we move through challenging times and trust that there's Something Higher being played out. That's what I believe.

It also might be worth mentioning, for what it's worth: Astrologically, the planet of Communication (Mercury) is retrograde right now, til the 19th. When a planet goes retrograde, it appears to "go backwards" in the sky and, energetically, in our relationships here on earth, it can manifest as unclear, confusing communication, problems with machines, computers, cars....all those things pertaining to communication, travel, plans, legal agreements, stuff like that. It happens three times a year, usually for about three wks at a time. It's helpful to know this, in the spirit of "As Above, So Below", because it provides awareness.

Hang in there. You are not alone. You have support and are supported by people who care about you.

[Maestro]

47. Thank you so much Shine for

that wonderful response. I certainly need to learn patience with my father, but he is so damn frustrating and, at least this time, so crazy out of control! If there is someone out there with a plan for me, I need a bit more guidance and reassurance.

[TrogL]

33. Welcome to rage addiction

My father would have blowups like that. On my bad days I've had a few.

Somebody posted a link to a youtube office meltdown that's the same sort of thing (and yes, I've been tempted and yes, I've been around one).

I suspect it may have something to do with his brain's relationship with adrenaline - it's lacking some. Hence he needs to blow up every once in awhile just to maintain his levels. There are anti-depressants that treat that better than self-medicating with tantrums.

Be that as it may, I would strongly do what I had to do (somewhat) - divorce yourself from him. It is simply not safe for anyone, especially you or the kids to be around him. If he is of such weak character that he relies upon religious addiction to do his thinking and rage addiction to balance his neurotransmitters - he needs serious help beyond what you or anyone else can give him.

[Maestro]

48. He's never been out of control like this, but he really snapped.

I extremely close to decking him, but something inside of me just wouldn't let me do it although I did push him up against a wall to get him out of my face. And don't worry I am steering clear. I never really enjoyed being around him and this just solidifies it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. Ah, crud *hugs* I am so sorry you have such a toxic parent. I don't have any advice for ya but

I will keep you and yours in my thoughts.

[Maestro]

49. Thank you very much.

I checked out the link in your sig. I wish there were more Christians like those who espoused the beliefs at that website.

[GreenPartyVoter]

59. I think there are more of us than anyone would guess, but we're just too darned polite to go around

forcing our religion on anyone else, and hence, no one realizes we're out there. :p

[Maestro]

62. Great point!

[FloridaJudy]

36. {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ hug }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

It sounds to me as if your father is genuinely ill. If you're still on good terms with your mom, is there any way she can get him to a competent doctor?

[Maestro]

50. Thanks

He has many good doctors. I think we are witnessing the onset of something new. He's pathetic. My mom's not though. She'll get him help. She told me last night that she let him have it for treating me this way. She still tried to rationalize things with me and offer up excuses, but she knows he's at fault and needs help.

[NashVegas]

37. Hi Maestro

So sorry you're having to deal with this. Your relationship with your dad is probably never going to be what you want it to be. It really sucks, and you have my sympathy.




I actually kind of agree with your dad about the zombies, but that's neither here nor there.

[Maestro]

52. Thank you

And sorry that you have obviously had poor experiences with public schools. We are not all that way.

[Zuiderelle]

46. I am so sorry, Maestro. Having grown up with an enraged father and enabling mother to him...

I understand completely. I am so very sorry that your children had to witness that, and that your father has not progressed past where he was when you were a child. I've read many of your posts here, and it's clear that you are a compassionate, intelligent and loving person, and father, and husband. None of the things your father was or is. You should be proud of yourself for growing into who you are in spite of such turmoil. Just continue to do what you're doing, and your kids won't have to live with what you experienced. And that's a huge success.

[Maestro]

53. Thanks so much PelisoFan

I am confident in who I am, but it still hurts when your father says otherwise even though I know it's not true.

[tigereye]

51. I am sorry. You sound like a wise and good person and I wish you well

[Maestro]

54. Thanks so much Tigereye

I try my best to be wise and good. It's difficult at times.

[UTUSN]

55. Maestro, you are a PRINCE of a person. I understand, but DON'T understand, why you are

acting as though your father is NOW rational. It could be a lot of things: Dementia, whatever.



That said, surely your kids know you to be the humane human that WE here KNOW you to be. Explain to them and to your mother that your kids will NOT be going there again.


Alcohol dementia or Alzheimers or whatever the fuck it is is PHYSICAL. It can't be REASONED with.



This radio psychiatrist, Doctor David VISCOTT would always tell callers who wanted to make up or fight with or whatever with elders, "LEAVE THE OLD PEOPLE ALONE."



What a beautiful person YOU are.


By the bye, here's my latest against your other old nemesis, Ruben NAVARRETTE, Jr:


NAVARRETTE:
Most here should already be familiar with this a-hole. Start with the short-cut: A minority member who is a wingnut. Go on from there, another one of those Affirmative Action alums whose "Liberal" professors turn them into wingnut tools---"Don't be PREDICTABLE. It's a CLICHE for a minority to be a Lib, so GO THE OTHER WAY, or at least, be a 'cafeteria' type, picking and choosing from whatever party!1" So NAVARRETTE dropped out of his Harvard AA slot, slunk back to his hometown where he was skunked by the homeboys, then somehow went back to Harvard and squeaked through, then cashed in by writing a poor-mouthing thingy about how CRUEL "White Liberal males" were to him, then parlaying that into being a wingnut tool. And of course our CRACK media eats up a "non-traditional minority viewpoint" so they syndicate him and all.

So his track record as a columnist is to perpetually GIVE ADVICE TO DEMS, like Dems should listen to a WINGNUT TOOL!1 Back in the '90s, when Shrub had his pact going with Texas Southern Conservative Dems (call them A-holes), and the Texas Dem party was dead, so dead that many elections went uncontested, NAVARRETTE was lecturing Dems that they OWED it to one Victor MORALES (a high school teacher in a weekend battered pick-up truck) to give him another nomination, just when the Dems were beginning to have a chance again with African American Ron KIRK, because Victor had been carrying the Dem standard in the wilderness years. When KIRK won the nomination, Victor refused to endorse him, and in fact, went on to endorse the Rethug candidate. What else, when Gonzo GONZALES was nominated for Torture-Mouthpiece by Shrub, NAVARRETTE proclaimed that he should be confirmed without Senate committee advice JUST BECAUSE he is a Hispanic (in name only), and that, besides, NAVARRETTE would be watching him like O.J. was searching for the real killer, and would CONDEMN him mightily if he screwed up. HaHAH, not a peep from NAVARRETTE ever since.

But his bottom line is always that the Dems, specifically White Liberal males, have done nothing for minorities except to keep them enslaved, and that Shrub appointed all those 3 or 4 minorities to HIGH posts, much more than CLINTON ever did. He neglects to mention that Dem PROGRAMS extend benefits to MILLIONS instead of jobs to THREE OR FOUR.

[Maestro]

57. Thank you so much for UTUSN. I am sick of reasoning with him

and I know he is not rational or reasonable, but the vitriol that he spewed was quite caustic and new for him. Speaking of vitriol, thanks for letting me on Ruben, the completely biased, hack of a journalist(?) that he is.

Speaking of Morales, I met him several times and appeared with him on a Dallas local access TV back when we was running against Phil Gramm. He is a great guy, a real trooper! I am one of those white liberal males that Navarrette tries to paint as enslavers of the minority. He's such a whack job! I don't know how he still finds papers in which he can write.

[ismnotwasm]

56. I admire you no end

Just from what you put down here. Sometimes parents just suck. So I try not to be a sucky parent, sometimes following a near direct opposite path from the one I was raised with.

I'd adopt you--you sound wonderful.

[Maestro]

58. I'm 40 and potty-trained.

Thanks for the kind words. I have certainly learned how to be parent from many fine people in my life. Unfortunately my dad is not one of them.

[auntAgonist]

60. ......

I don't know what else to say.....

aA
kesha

[Maestro]

64. The hug is sufficient.

[IdaBriggs]

61. I join the others who say, 'sorry your father is ... sick.' However,

I must point out a couple of things --

You say your mother wouldn't 'let' him hurt your kids.

She has already failed at this. Your kids *were* hurt. And so were you.

A normal person (which I think you are) would have some issues with his mother for 'protecting' his kids, while not protecting him as a child, which is the meta-message you are proposing. ("My mother, who is incapable of stopping an alcoholic from drinking and exposed me to things I should never have seen, will make sure my children are protected from seeing things they shouldn't see because now she is magically able to do so, and/or she loves them more than she loved me." -- NOT LOGICAL!)

Your father has crossed a line that you probably should have drawn a long time ago. If he wants to act like a nut-job, and its just the two of you, and you are okay with it, fine. Not really good, but hey, whatever works for you. Doing it when your kids are around -- NOT FINE.

I hope you have enough self-esteem to realize that since your kids love you, and they aren't stupid, watching someone who is SUPPOSED to love you (your own father) scream the vile things he did at you is upsetting for them. Furthermore, it leaves open the scary question of 'are *you* going to 'get sick' and tell them you don't want anything to do with them?' If you make his behavior a 'normal' thing, it is a fear that gets planted. His behavior needs to be addressed as UNACCEPTABLE and INAPPROPRIATE. He needs to apologize to you privately, and then to your kids in a public family discussion.

There may be valid physical reasons your father stepped over the deep end, or it could simply be that he is an awful person. Regardless, your duty isn't to protect him from the consequences of his actions; it is to protect your family.

Don't take your kids to his house anymore. Forbid contact between him and the grandchildren until such time as he meets whatever conditions you decide to set -- an apology for being verbally abusive to you would be an absolute minimum, with the follow-up to your kids, too.

It isn't about punishing him (altho he and others will try to make it that way); its about doing your duty as a parent, and keeping Nut Jobs away from you and your family.

I am confident he will try to turn it into a discussion about evolution, but you are past that point now. The REAL issue is whether his over-the-top obscenity filled rant (the comments, not necessarily the specific words) was an acceptable way for a father to treat a) his son, or b) any human being? Would it have been acceptable if he did it to a sibling, or your mother, or a neighbor? My gut is that you will be trying to justify it because you are used to being the target, but seriously, Enough needs to be ENOUGH!

Is he going to be embarrassed, or try to justify his behavior? Yup. Stick to your guns. Your mother apparently likes the martyr role she plays/the drama, so stop discussing it with her. He is supposedly a grown man; he knows what he did, and you need to be DONE. And frankly, the fact she was 'protecting him' is a problem. She should have lit into him like crazy for talking to you like that in her home, let alone anywhere near when the grandchildren would be. If she is too weak to do that after all these years, only an idiot would trust their kids with her when she is with someone who can walk all over her / treat her son like crap IN HER OWN HOME. (Yup, I think she needs a spinal transplant, and its time you demanded one.)

Its time to break the cycle. It won't be easy -- I had to cut the chord with my father for six months, and took a lot of abuse from family members about it, but it worked; I got closure/healing, AND AN APOLOGY three weeks before he died.

Good luck!

[Maestro]

63. Thank you Ida for the thoughtful response.

The kids will not be seeing him at least for the next three months or so. I have time to look at options. I've already spoken to my kids about it. I hope that by my actions here at home in the 8 years my daughter has been with me and in the 6 years my son has been with me that they know that I am not going to get 'sick' like my father. The chord with us, my father and me, had been broken really long before this. Sure we were civil to each other at family gatherings and the like, but the chord had been broken. I've already told my mom that I do not want my father around my kids at all.

But don't worry, I am sticking to my guns. He was completely out of line and he should know it. Everyone else does.

[IdaBriggs]

66. Sounds like you are being very sensible about this --

I am impressed! LOL! However, I will point out one more thing:

This could be a chance for some emotional healing. By that, I mean addressing the issue with your mother about how she *DIDN'T* protect you, when that was her primary job as a parent, and *STILL* doesn't protect you now, even when she should. (I realize you are an adult who can now protect yourself, but perhaps you can save yourself some money from the counselor visits I had while I wrestled with my own 'protect her instead of myself' by apportioning responsibility on her shoulders for the dysfunction in our home -- it was tough having those conversations with her, but it helped heal old wounds for both of us.)

Also, if you could put your issues in writing to your father and then send it to him, along with options for him to begin to 'repair' the relationship, I think you will be happier long term. In my experience, when I didn't do that, it was very easy for everyone to just pretend it didn't happen/agree to disagree about the severity of the issues ("it wasn't that bad, and you are blowing it up out of proportion"), and then boom! We all got to be surprised (!) when the same damn cycle repeated itself, usually during holiday periods, or important stressful times.

Regret, Repent and Repair are very powerful tools. If your father Regrets what he did, Repents of his cruelty, and wants to Repair the damage he did, my belief is that you should give him the opportunity. Offer him at least three things he can do to Repair the relationship -- concrete things, not 'never' or 'show me respect' which is subjective. (Remember, he obviously doesn't have the tools in his coping skills bucket now, otherwise he would be using them. Help him to learn them.)

For example, 'Go to 5 AA meetings.' Or 'Listen or Read the Dance of Anger.' Or (best) 'Attend 3 counseling sessions with an Imago family therapist.'

Put it in writing. Let him be in control of what he picks, but offer some alternatives. The relationship with your father has been damaged for a long time, but if you can heal it, you will break the cycle for your children, and their children....

Good luck!!!

[Wapsie B]

65. Man, I can relate to your story.

I see similarities to the relationship I have with my father. Not the drunkenness necessarily, although as a kid I had to wonder at times. The anger and rage was all too common growing up.

[Maestro]

67. I haven't seen him drinking lately. I think this is just pure

evangelical, fundamental instransigence and meaness. Thanks for understanding.

[Caution]

68. FYI Ken Ham is one of the "biggest" names in Creationism

He's a nutjob of epic proportions and an enemy of education.

For more info:
http://www.google.com/custom?q=%22ken+ham%22&sa=Search&...

As a general resource on this crap:

www.talkorigins.com

and

http://www.pandasthumb.org /

[Maestro]

70. Thanks for the links

When I study this sort of debate I usually stick with known biblical scholars or secular humanists who take a scientific approach to looking at what the Bible proposes. This Ham guy sounds like a whacko from the backwoods of Kentucky who somehow got a book deal.

[Darth_Kitten]

69. ouch.

I don't know where to start. Men like your father are more common than you may realize.
These men are full of resentments a mile long. I'm really tired of alcoholic conservatives who later "find" religion, yet never seem to really deal with the hostility they want to feel for the world.

I will never truly trust men because my stepfather is rather like this. He has these outbursts occasionally when watching the news, reading the newspaper, whatever. I have always challenged him on this.
I find it incredible that he always tries to please HIS father. "There should be prayer in the schools, that'll help with the teen gang problem, etc" Yeah, where were the religious values when you were growing up in your abusive, dysfunctional household? Yes, he doesn't drink anymore, thank God, but he backtracks in his behaviour and it's hard to take at times.

[Maestro]

71. Resentment! You nailed it.

I think my father has hated who he is/was all of his life and he projects that anger primarily on me since I have further rejected the type of person he is. My brother gets some slack I think because at least he is a religious person or at least never really confronted my dad about anything.