Let us debate the Prime Directive.

[Dr. Strange]

This came up in another thread, but it really deserves its own thread. This is the general idea of noninterference in "primitive" societies (pre-warp in the case of Star Trek). Kirk tended to violate it three or four times before lunch, while Picard adhered to it with blind fanaticism.

Is the Prime Directive a good idea? I thought so before the Next Generation series, but after seeing an episode like Homeward , I now have my doubts. You may discuss this in the context of Trek or the real world (although I may ignore the real world discussion, as I'm on vacation and may not feel like thinking that hard).

[DarkTirade]

1. On a large-scale, yes.

On an up close and personal scale when dealing with one, or a group of people suffering because the people higher up on the food chain aren't allowed to help them... it sucks.

[Dr. Strange]

4. But what's the logic behind saying, "We shouldn't help."?

Why does anyone think that letting a whole race of people die is preferable to "interfering?"

[DarkTirade]

11. That's where it starts to get messy.

Should we do everything in our power to keep a race alive, even if it insists on following a path of self-destruction? And what is our responsibility should a giant asteroid head towards a planet when none of the inhabitants of that planet are capable of stopping such an event from happening?

In the end, the answer to that question lies with the people who ask it. The dinosaurs' answer may not be the same as ours.

[JTG of the PRB]

45. There was an interesting episode of Enterprise about this sort of idea...

One of the best episodes of Enterprise, in my opinion.

The long and short of the story is that the Enterprise comes to a planet inhabited by two humanoid species, the Valakians and the Menk. The Valakians, the dominant species on the planet, are afflicted by a genetic disease that will eventually kill their entire species. The Menk, on the other hand, are immune, though they are a significantly less developed race of people - like comparing humans with something slightly lower than Neanderthals. In any clause, the doctor on Enterprise, Phlox, runs an analysis of both species and discovers he can completely cure the Valakians by using some genetic data from the Menk.

However... Phlox also discovers that the Menk will someday evolve to be far more brilliant, creative, talented than the Valakians. The Valakians are keeping their undeveloped cousins under check in order to assure their dominance. The conflict arises when Phlox tells Captain Archer it would be wrong to interfere with the natural order of the planet - according to what SHOULD happen, the Valakians should die off and the Menk should inherit the planet. Phlox has a great line regarding the way the crew sees the Menk: "Despite the Menk's insistence that they're treated well, my human crewmates seem to see things differently. They think the Menk are being exploited by the Valakians, so their first instinct is to rise to their defense despite the fact that the Menk don't appear to need or want a defender."

So the issues of the Prime Directive come into play in this manner. Should Captain Archer order Phlox to cure the Valakians and effectively doom the Menk to an existence in which they cannot fulfill their evolutionary destiny, or should he allow the natural course of evolution to continue by allowing the Valakians to die off completely when they could be cured?

That's the reason the Prime Directive was created, and also the reason it is occasionally violated. Sometimes, human nature will override any rule, any law that should be followed so somebody can do what is ACTUALLY right, and not necessarily what the letter of the law SAYS is right.

[Dr. Strange]

47. I think I'd agree with that.

That's what I find so odd about Picard's position--it's a total letter of the law thing. Very surprising coming from him.

[UndertheOcean]

2. Get a life !

[Dr. Strange]

6. I can't.

I'm on vacation.

[TZ]

3. Personally, I always liked the idea in general

but I think that it should be more like a guideline than a hard and fast rule.. You know that whole gray area thing..and taking it case by case. I didn't like Kirk playing fast and loose with it..But I thought Picard was a little bit harsh with it. In life I always remind myself, there's always an exception to the rule.

[Dr. Strange]

7. That's kind of what I think.

I didn't see it mentioned much in DS9 or Voyager (but then I've only seen half of those episodes), but the Federation seemed pretty anal about it. I guess that's what becomes of the FDA in the future, eh?

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. I kinda feel that way too. Especially in a case, say, where

an asteroid is heading for a primitive planet, no reason not to fix the problem in my book.

[mainegreen]

5. Screw the prime directive, we need slaves!

}(

[pokerfan]

8. The PD goes out the window

whenever Orion Slave Girls are involved.



Or whenever Kirk loses another redshirt.

[Dr. Strange]

14. Nice post, Harcourt.

Very nice post.

[Bake]

24. Kirk!! Shamelessly chasing green tail!!

:rofl:

She was pretty hot though, even if green!!

Bake

[laconicsax]

28. It was actually Pike, not Kirk.

[pokerfan]

37. he's right

But Kirk would have nailed it too, given the chance.

[MilesColtrane]

48. Then again, Kirk would nail an alien slime mold if it had a suitable orifice.

[pokerfan]

51. 'm 95% sure Kirk banged the Horta

somehow. It just didn't make final cut.

[madinmaryland]

9. Can you pass the doobie, so that I can understand what the

hell you are talking about.

[Dr. Strange]

12. Jeez, don't you watch any tv?

Here's what the wiki says about "The Prime Directive:"

The Secretary of Defense is giving the President the daily briefing. The SecDef concludes by saying: "Yesterday, three Brazilian soldiers were killed."

"OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!"

The President's staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands.

Finally, the President looks up and says, "One Brazilian is too many! I am glad that we are beginning to draw down our presence in Iraq and put an end to this long national nightmare. As the Prime Directive requires."

[TZ]

13. .....

:spray:
I nominate that for best sneak brazillion joke attack....

[madinmaryland]

15. Damn! You're getting good.

I'll have to speak to executive committe (LSK and Orrex) to see if we need a fourth member!!1!!

Well Done!

[Parche]

16. Where did Kirk Break it?

I maybe know of one.....'private little war'

the 'apple' he had to do something against Vol, as it was attacking the Enterprise....

:hi:

[Dr. Strange]

20. Frm the Wiki

In addition, Kirk directly interfered with the laws or customs of alien worlds in Friday's Child, For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky, The Cloud Minders, The Apple, The Return of the Archons, and A Taste of Armageddon, in order to achieve a Federation objective, to save the lives of his crew, or both. However, in two of those instances Kirk intentionally reinterpreted the Prime Directive to only apply to cultures that were advancing themselves in some way in order to achieve his goals without violating it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive#Inconsistent_application

Kirk was the Bill Belichick of the Federation.

[Parche]

22. I disagree

In all of those he had to save the Enterprise from being blasted, that is the first concern
I blame the Zenite in 'cloud minders' that stuff is like smokin a bong
In 'Fridays child' i think he was just glad that the kid was named after him, and
given the name of Leonard James Akaar!! :woohoo: :woohoo:
:hi:

[TZ]

23. "Kirk was the Bill Belichick of the Federation..."

BWAAAA!!!ELEVENS. I think I feel a new sig line coming on.

[Fire Walk With Me]

17. Geekfight

:popcorn:

[Dr. Strange]

18. Redwings suck.

That is all.

[Fire Walk With Me]

19. It's two, two, two geekfights in one.

So I'll be back in two and two.

[JVS]

21. Kirk rules

[Bake]

25. Rules are made to be broken!!

Every time Kirk did it, it was warranted. And I think Picard may have bent it a time or two (no episodes come to mind, however).

Bake

[Dr. Strange]

27. No he didn't!

That's one of the things I hated about Picard. He was astronomically anal about adhering to the Prime Directive. To the point where he was willing to let a race get destroyed by an asteroid instead of being exposed to aliens from another planet. With regards to the PD, Picard was the Soup Nazi of the Federation.

[Hand]

26. I break it every time I vote. nt

[CreekDog]

29. I did not know the prime directive and had to look it up

I guess I'm cooler than you. :think:

[Dr. Strange]

30. According to the Prime Directive...

I am not allowed to converse with less intelligent species such as yourself. Once you purchase a Rush album, you may be permitted to enter the Federation.

tak' playleh (Vulcan for "neener neener")

[CreekDog]

31. better to remain silent and thought a fool

than to purchase a Rush album and remove all doubt. :think:

[Dr. Strange]

33. Entrance to the Federation DENIED!

CreekDog is now considered a rogue race. Avoid him at all costs. General Order Four is now in effect!

:rofl: :rofl:


PS I didn't read your post because you're still on Ignore.

[CreekDog]

35. Picard wannabe

:rofl:

[Dr. Strange]

41. Oh come on, ref, call a foul!

[PassingFair]

44. Here, use THIS on him:

[harmonicon]

43. +1

[TZ]

32. Well what does that make me?

I have never purchased a Rush album..BTW, you are DEFINTIELY a bigger geek than I since you actually can umm speak Vulcan....
PS--Do you like the new sigline?

[Dr. Strange]

34. I can't speak Vulcan either.

I totally made it up.

Your sig-line, of course, rocks!

[laconicsax]

36. The Prime Directive was/is a good idea.

The basis for it is that no culture has the right to directly interfere with another culture in a way that will leave a permanent mark.

In the specific case of 'Homeward,' you can argue about a moral or ethical obligation to save the Boraalans from certain death, but the fact is, Nikolai had no right to do what he did.  The Boraalans may not have known what happened, but you have to look to the future.  If the Boraalans were to advance as a culture to the point where they can begin making scientific inquiries about their world and their own past, they would be unable to find any evidence of their own existence prior to their transplantation in 'Homeward.' They may have been saved from death, but they have been condemned to never be able to discover the origins of their existence--something that would undoubtedly inhibit their ability to advance as a culture.

They could potentially discover a mechanism through which all life on their planet evolved, but in light of their own origin being seemingly spontaneous, they would have to reject the notion completely.  The only way to avoid that conclusion would be to try to come up with an alternative natural explanation of their existence--something which would be impossible, casting extreme doubt on whatever evolutionary mechanism they discover.

If they are unable to rely on reason and scientific investigation to discover the something as fundamental as the origins of their own existence, the likelihood that they would pursue reason and scientific investigation as a tool to discover the nature and workings of the universe is greatly diminished.  The ability of their culture to advance would be permanently hindered.

Even if the Boraalans were to examine the question of their own existence from the assumption that they were somehow not native to their world and make great scientific progress while acknowledging that they may never uncover the truth about themselves, the fact that they had been transplanted would still have permanent impact on their culture--effectively shaping their view of the universe.

So, the question changes from whether or not the Federation has a moral obligation to take action, but whether they have the right to permanently affect another culture's natural development.  My view is that they most certainly do not have that right.

[Dr. Strange]

38. Some excellent points.

The basis for it is that no culture has the right to directly interfere with another culture in a way that will leave a permanent mark.

I think I agree with that to a large extent.

In the specific case of 'Homeward,' you can argue about a moral or ethical obligation to save the Boraalans from certain death,...

I won't say obligation. If the Federation did nothing, I wouldn't call their lack of action ethical or unethical.

...but the fact is, Nikolai had no right to do what he did. The Boraalans may not have known what happened, but you have to look to the future. If the Boraalans were to advance as a culture to the point where they can begin making scientific inquiries about their world and their own past, they would be unable to find any evidence of their own existence prior to their transplantation in 'Homeward.' They may have been saved from death, but they have been condemned to never be able to discover the origins of their existence--something that would undoubtedly inhibit their ability to advance as a culture.

I don't see it as an issue of Nikolai's rights. The fact that the Boraalans were condemned to never be able to discover the origins of their existence is largely true--but that condemnation came from the universe, not from Nikolai's actions. There was nothing that Nikolai and/or the Federation could have done to avoid that condemnation. So I can't lay that at Nikolai's feet.

And I agree with the issue that the change in surroundings for the Boraalans could have a profound effect on the development of their science and culture. But if the alternative is annihilation, which is worse?

So, the question changes from whether or not the Federation has a moral obligation to take action, but whether they have the right to permanently affect another culture's natural development. My view is that they most certainly do not have that right.

I wouldn't argue that they have an obligation or a right. Simply that neither action is truly more ethical than the other.

I find it interesting that the writers wanted to cling to the Prime Directive (or have Picard cling to it) and yet they came up with a happy ending. It would have had a more dramatic effect, IMO, if they had let the Boraalans die, ala Godwin's "The Cold Equations."

An excellent post. :thumbsup:

[laconicsax]

39. A minor point not terribly consequential...

The Boraalans transplanted were not the entirety of the race.  Nikolai only transported the one small village to the holodeck.  The rest died along with every other living thing on the Boraal II.

[leeroysphitz]

40. Why? Is it suddenly convenient to the plot?

Does the lounge even have a plot?

Hold on the shields and warp drive are down after just one enemy phaser strike.

Okay. Whew! I fixed them just in time.

[Dr. Strange]

42. I believe that the Lounge does in fact have a plot.

Thanks for fixing the shields and warp drive!

[zingaro]

46. ok since you asked...

My belief is that the Prime Directive is a good idea.

I base this on my own belief that cultural evolution of any society works in a somewhat organized way - technological advances when there is readiness, at least in part, for the responsibility of handling those advances and the like. This is not to say that there aren't instances in our own global evolution when things happened that we weren't ready to handle on an ethical basis (and STILL aren't ready to handle, kwim?).I believe that globally we will succeed or fail on that same global scale...and sort of maybe that the challenge in and of itself IS that notion and so, then, the Prime Directive makes sense to me. Interference of a rather Promethian nature whacks out that whole action/consequence thing by giving away things, talents, or skills that haven't been earned - at least by the discovering member of society - sort of like handing black-belt skills out to a beginner who hasn't the discipline to handle them.

ok that's my reasoning anyway :)

[cynatnite]

49. Prime directive seemed to be convenient for the federation...

Kept them clean and didn't get blood on their hands.

That was the case for the Bajoran occupation. The federation refused to help while the Bajorans were slaughtered and oppressed by the Cardassians.

At times I could understand the necessity...not allowing less advanced races have advanced technology. It makes sense because the potential for abuse is too great.

The problem I have is when people are oppressed or a natural disaster threatens to wipe out a race and the federation tosses out the prime directive as a reason for not doing the right thing.

The Federation's moral authority goes out the window when they stand by and do nothing, IMO.

[Lethe]

50. well, cmon, Kirk only violated it when his ship was in danger or he wanted to seduce a love interest

cut him some slack dude :)

The PD is a great idea.

Once you start playing god with civilizations you are doomed to fail. The best policy is hands off, even if it means their destruction. Humans are not wise enough to play god. If you try, you will never win.

[RadiationTherapy]

52. Yes, but what about christian missionaries converting indigenous peoples

Kidding.


I'm kidding!!