Dog experts..

[Roon]

My parents have a HUGE weimer that has bitten well over a half dozen people in the last few years. They have been busted twice now and have to go to court next month for the most recent bite.

My Mother is spending 800.00 dollars to send this dog to a training facility before they have to go to court in hopes that they can keep the dog.

My question is...once a dog has bitten several people, can it be trained NOT to bite? I would think that would be very difficult.

[Roon]

1. kick

[Madrone]

2. Yes it CAN.

But I honestly don't know if your parents can handle the dog since it's not so much a matter of training the DOG not to bite as it is training the PEOPLE to know how to handle him so he doesn't. Your parents really don't seem to have the motivation or will it will require to live with an alpha, aggressive dog.

But it most certainly CAN be done.

It's become rather cliche these days to mention him but Ceaser Milan has an entire pack of "aggressive" dogs he's taken in and rehabilitated. You should read up on him and what he's accomplished with seriously aggressive, "red zone" dogs.

I'm thinking your parents should find a Ceasar - and give the dog to him/her. It doesn't deserve to be put down, but it's GOING to be if the people involved don't snap to it.

[Roon]

5. My parents are very poor dog owners

Their HUGE dogs don't listen, barks at everything that moves,and of course, the big one bites. He bites when you make a sudden movement close to him. He has bitten babies, teens, and adults. He isn't fixed because my parents don't want to lose their money maker. They should have gotten rid of this dog a long time ago.

[LostinVA]

28. What's especially scary is that they're breeding this dog

Aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred, and people shouldn't be in breeding to make money.

[Roon]

38. I agree

All breeding and pet stores should be banned.

[Madrone]

8. Addendum ...

After re-reading what I wrote about I think it comes off far harsher than is my intent. I remember you talking about your parents and their reaction to the dog's aggressiveness, and that's why I think that while they're motivated to take the dog to training (and that's VERY commendable on their part - I am very happy that they're not just putting him down) I'm not so sure they'll stay motivated to the extent it will take to stay on top of the dog - EVERY day. They are not in control, the dog is. They'd have to re-take control from the dog, and every DAY work to retain it. It takes a special kind of person to do that with an aggressive animal - and most people (myself included) are not it.

[Roon]

9. I couldn't do it either eom

[harmonicon]

3. yes, it can be trained

If it were a lost cause, I would imagine that it would have attacked your parents by now. And, if they can't keep the dog, perhaps, like the other poster suggested, they could find a place for it to be rehabilitated. My girlfriend used to work at a place that took otherwise unwanted dogs and tried to find them homes, after being trained, etc. Some of them were still scary problem dogs, but some were really lovely animals that just needed a little help and the right people to live with.

[Roon]

6. This dog would never attack my parents

only visitors to their home.

[Kali]

4. 6 people bitten? Urban?

any unusual circumstances or is the dog that aggressive? (weimeraners tend to be so no real surprise) but 6 bites? How bad were the attacks? I might give another owner who knows what they are doing a shot, but my gut says the dog is dangerous and should probably be put down.

Sorry that isn't very sensitive, but aggressive dogs are dangerous and the liability issues are tremendous, nevermind actually harming someone.

[Roon]

7. It has bitten more than 6 people..

less than a dozen. Not sure how many exactly. He has put three people in the hospital including a baby.

[Kali]

10. he needs to be put down

your parents must have some pull. I'm surprised the authorities haven't done something. And to continue to put this animal's genetic material out there for money isn't real cool either.

Your parents are at a huge risk for losing more than this "money-maker" they could lose big time if somebody sues - especially if a kid was involved.

[Roon]

12. That's what blows me away

My parents are intelligent, college educated, and somewhat wealthy. Why they would risk all of that on a biting dog is beyond me. I just don't get it...

[barb162]

16. Did they pay all of those hospital bills? Or their insurer?

Because I'm surprised their insurer hasn't dumped them. And I'm surprised if they are paying hospital bills that the stud fees aren't eaten up by the hospital bills. Still I think it's good they are FINALLY deciding to train this dog.

[LeftyMom]

11. First of all, they absolutely must get this dog altered.

If he's aggressive, they definitely shouldn't be breeding him, not only is it irresponsible, it's a huge liability if one of the pups winds up as much of a problem dog as he is. Also, neutering generally helps with aggression.

[Roon]

13. Someone suggested on this board the last time he bit someone

I ran it by my parents, they still haven't gotten him fixed, yet they are sending him to this school.

[LeftyMom]

14. I have to wonder about any school that hasn't mandated it.

It's pretty damned unlikely the court is going to let them keep the dog without altering him. Doing so now might help their case a bit, in showing that they're taking responsibility.

That said, I think either the dog is going to need to be rehomed to somebody with a lot of expertise and patience or put down. Probably the latter. Three people in the hospital is a really severe aggression problem. The risk that there will be a fourth sounds unacceptably high to me.

[Roon]

17. No doubt

I agree.

[barb162]

15. A good trainer can get that to stop.

I am wondering about the circumstances when the dog is biting. Is it when a person gets close or does he run to the person to bite? And is it happening when the dog is leashed?

[Roon]

18. He bites when someone makes a sudden movement

The Baby got bit because he started bouncing a ball near him..someone got bit because they suddenly reached in the car to shake my Father's hand. Another one got bit because he was faux running in the house while telling the story of catching a bus. That is all I know about, I don't know why he bit the other people.

[barb162]

19. I knew a dog like that a long time ago . His name was Pal

or Friend as I recall, of all names. But Pal (or Friend) would bite when a person moved. A person could be sitting perfectly still and if they moved a finger, Pal might attack. That was before trainers were common.

Geez, I hope your parents take that dog to a really good school. I'm amazed they have waited this long. I bet that dog needs a lot more exercise too. There's another thing and that is he can be put on meds to calm him down. Those meds usually work. I bet he'll need some when he's getting trained.

[Roon]

22. The dog gets plenty of exercise

they live out in the country on 8 acres. I have no idea why they waited so long. Denial?

[Skittles]

20. not a dog expert but yes, it can be retrained

I saw a trainer on TV who has dealt often with biting dogs and did get them to stop. But really, the dog should be neutered.

[chknltl]

21. I strongly agree with Madrone, Roon

www.cesarmillaninc.com
GO here. Post your question to Cesar Millan if you can. Do so soon. There is a remote possibility that Cesar will help you. At the very least you should get some advice from him.

This dog is not under the control of it's owners, PERIOD. It is because of that lack of control by the owners that this dog is a hazard to others. It is highly likely that the owners are not aware that they are a major part of the dog's problem. This is NOT the dogs fault, yet the dog may be put down because of this. I am NOT an expert on dogs, but I am convinced that this dog needs outside help if it is to survive.

Would you deny it a veterinarian if it were sick? Of course not. In a way this is a mental sickness, one that requires a retraining of both the dog and especially the dog's owners to be effective. Good luck Roon. This is the lounge, most of us have and love pets. We will be anxious to hear good news...we can offer little more than the advice of our collective wisdoms. I think most of us respect Cesar Millan for what he has accomplished with dogs in serious need of help like your parent's weimer. Please check into that link soon. Thanks for reaching out on this dog's behalf and keep us informed.

[Roon]

23. Thanks for the post

I will consider the link and keep you all up to date.

[alphafemale]

24. Some people just shouldn't have dogs.

There's no way a decently raised dog would bite a "non-threatening" person. This dog bit a BABY!!!

I'm really amazed you've turned out so well...considering.

[Roon]

25. We didn't have dogs growing up

when my Father retired and my Mother semi-retired, they got these dogs. Three of them. Untrained, will eat anything that you don't have your eye on, barks at me every time I come down the stairs. You are right, they have no business owning dogs. The dogs rule them.

[barb162]

29. There's a whole thing about the dogs will make humans part of the pack

and the humans have to retake the role of head of the pack.

[radfringe]

26. sending dog to training facility is all well and good

but won't do much in the long run if your parents are willing and able to follow through after training is complete

dogs are pack animals, they follow the ALPHA. This means your parents have to establish themselves as the ALPHA PACK LEADER and maintain that position.

The first thing a trainer does is to establish his/her position as pack leader in relation to the dog. Once that's done, it's a matter of consistency in training. However, like children who figure out what they can get away with, with which parent, dogs do the same thing. The dog may learn that it can't get away with being aggressive when it's with the trainer, but when it's back home - it's a different story.

a personal example: When I moved in with my partner, she had a 1 year old Airedale named Dax. The dog was smart, knew a few commands, (lay down, sit, and shake)

Dax use to jump on people coming into the house to greet them, at 70lbs leaping on your chest - this is not an acceptable behavior.

I would get home from work before my partner, open the door and have to fend off the happy dog jumping on me. At first I would grab her by the front legs and hold her in a standing position to make it uncomfortable for her to hold it for that long, and I would sternly tell her NO JUMPING.

She learned quickly to do a quick jump and get out of the way before I could grab her legs. This called for a more assertive approach.

I started putting her down on the floor. Grabbing her by the collar, and forcing her to the floor. Holding her there until she submitted. All the while saying "NO JUMPING". Took a couple of weeks, but she learned NOT TO JUMP ON ME.

But she still jumped on my partner and other people when they came into the house. Next was extending the NO JUMPING rule to apply to anyone. As much as my partner professes to be good with dogs, she can be wimpy when it comes to discipline (doesn't want to hurt the dog). So, when I heard her coming up the walkway, I would go into the kitchen - and the minute Dax would make a move to jump, I'd tell her NO JUMPING - if she ignored the command, I'd take her down again until she submitted. She did learn not to jump, and to respect the NO JUMPING command from other people.

This exercise also set the stage to learn or unlearn other behaviors - like having to fight her off when I was putting food in her bowl. Again, making her submit and wait until I had filled the food bowl and give her the OK to eat. I used a combination of verbal and hand commands. eventually, all it took to get her to sit and wait was a look and a raised finger.

I'm in the process now of teaching our 7 month old hound-mix pup not to jump when someone comes into the house. Putting her down on the floor and making her submit.

The key is consistency and establishing yourself as pack leader. If your parents are looking for a miracle "cure" by sending the dog to classes, but are not willing to follow through after the classes - then it won't do any good

and yes, they should have the dog spayed.

[Roon]

27. Yep, that's the problem

the biting dog is the alpha in the pack,the pack that includes my parents.They won't keep it up when the dog comes home. They will waste $800.00 I fear.

[barb162]

30. Terrific post.

You'd be a great trainer.

[radfringe]

31. giggle... thanks, but

then again, maybe not

we've had the pup since she was 7-9 weeks old (adopted from a shelter)... she's around 7 months old and we're still working on house-breaking...

we did string a 15-day run with NO accidents at the beginning of January, but then she went to the vet for spaying. when we picked her up the next day, her spayed parts weren't the only thing missing - the housebreaking she had learned was also missing..

at the moment we are now on day 12 of no accidents in the house.

I've never had a dog or puppy take this long to housebreak...

[Madrone]

32. Mine took FOREVER to housebreak too...

But he knew sit and down and wait when he was an itty bitty thing. He also wouldn't crap in the house, but he'd be outside for hours then bark to come in and pee. I'd just about given up when he suddenly stopped. :shrug: I think dogs are like kids in some ways - one of them being they housebreak in their good time. ;)

For the record, spaying can screw up a female dog's ability to hold it as well too ... something to keep an eye on.

Good luck with the pup. I suspect one day it will finally just "click" - like it did for mine.

[radfringe]

35. we put up a set of bells on the back door

and trained her to "jingle" when she wanted to go out.

she learned that real fast, but instead of "jingle jingle, I have to go" it's "Jingle jingle - all done"

[China_cat]

48. If she's ringing the bells after she goes

why not try putting the bells on the OUTSIDE of the door? Who knows, it might work.

[barb162]

52. I remember having a cocker spaniel and we'd keep her

outside all day walking her and sitting with her. We couldn't get her to do it outside for anything. She'd hold it all day and then do it on the floor.

[marzipanni]

53. My cousin had a male cocker spaniel and my friend and I took him to the beach

After a 20-30 minute walk down the length of the beach at surf's edge, my friend and I sat down on the sand. Monty, the cocker, must've been frustrated finding no vertical objects along the way...suddenly my friend leapt up as she felt warm fluid running down the gap at the back of her jeans waistband!
Though it was a bit chilly she waded into the ocean to rinse off. :o

[Inchworm]

33. It can be taught and it should be asap

Why does it bite? Is it always chained and sometimes breaks loose?

:shrug:

[Roon]

39. They live in the country

the dog has miles and miles to run.

[LostinVA]

44. Just because they live in the country doesn't mean it's okay to let it run loose

It's lucky it hasn't been shot yet, getting into someone's livestock.

[SacredCow]

34. Certainly re-training might help...

but I wouldn't guarantee it. There may be a certain degree of instinct associated with the dog's tendencies to bite (not necessarily aggresive behavior- it could be defensive). In which case, the $800 bucks of training isn't going to fix the problem.

[Shell Beau]

36. Yikes! That is a scary situation. I can't believe no one has demanded

the dog be put down. Are these people the dog bit all friends of the family? This is a very serious situation. I feel like this is the wrong dog for your parents. He needs to be neutered and given to someone who can handle this type of dog. If your parents want to be responsible dog owners, that is what they should do.

[Roon]

40. Get this

When the Baby was bit, the Grandfather demanded that the dog be put down. On Christmas day, the Grandfather got bit. He reported it and that is why they have to go to court.

[Shell Beau]

42. Wow! I don't see the court being very lenient on your parents!

[Roon]

43. The courts only know about two bites

they don't know about the other bites.

[MrCoffee]

45. Two bites are generally all it takes

This dog needs to be put down.

[Shell Beau]

47. I can see 1 bite getting off with a warning. 2 bites, bye bye doggie!

Sad for the dog too. That dog is in the wrong hands.

[skygazer]

37. Your parents need to be retrained

And probably should be raising stuffed dogs, not live ones. Sorry, but keeping a dog that has bitten several people for no reason, and not neutering it, is irresponsible and potentially criminally negligent.

[Roon]

41. Yep!

I agree.

[AngryAmish]

46. I am a personal injury lawyer

A baby bit by a dog? It is a dream case. A dog that has bitten eight other people? Your parents might lose their house. Keeping that dog is almost the definition of willful and wanton conduct, the kind that gets punitive damages. Insurance does not cover punitive damages. They will have to pay every penny out of their bank account and when that runs dry they will have to sell the house.

(I don't know what state they live in but that would be the case in Illinois.)

on edit: don't try to train, don't try to fix, just kill the damn dog before it kills someone.

[Roon]

50. I agree AA

It could be so devastating if they ever get sued, yet they keep the damn dog.

[oregonjen]

49. The dog has been checked by a vet for any medical/pain issues?

A dog will act aggressively when in pain. He has been checked for anything that might have gone unnoticed by your parents? Maybe his teeth are in need of attention, perhaps an ear infection, etc.

Just a thought.

[Coyote_Bandit]

51. I don't think training the dog is the issue

Training the people is the real issue.

The dog will probably be put down. Too bad. He will sacrifice his life because his owners were too lazy or ignorant to properly discipline, train and socialize him. I don't mean to sound harsh, but some people should not be allowed to have animals. This is a form of neglect IMHO. The welfare of innocent people is at risk - as is that of the animal.

The court probably isn't going to care whether the dog has recently been through a training program. The dog is legally considered property and it is has displayed a propensity for violence. On more than one occasion. As far as the court is concerned the best predictor of future behavior is ...... past behavior.