Some of us just don't get it. Makes it hard to slam people like Michael Richards

[CatWoman]

et. al when you walk around looking like this....

At the Grammy's no less........



What next? Designer nooses?

[Midlodemocrat]

1. I agree. Very offensive.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

2. That's the name of Nas' new album.

Yes, I'm serious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nas#2008:_Nigger

I'm not at liberty to tell him whether it's wrong or right, but this could be a marketing ploy.

[Westegg]

8. Man, that's one fucked-up "marketing ploy"...

...which is all I have to say. God save us from ourselves.

[MissMillie]

3. Personally, I HATE that word

but I'm not sure it has the same power and/or meaning when an African American uses it.

The only thing I can come up with as an explanation is the use of "faggot" by homosexuals, the use of "c _ _ t" in The Vagina Monologues.

I think when a group takes the derogatory term and turns it on it's head in order to claim empowerment for themselves... it's something different. Not my rules, mind you, just my interpretation of the trend.

That said, I would never use any of those words... ever. I don't like them.

[suninvited]

9. Dave Chappell and Maya Angelou

addressed how they each felt about that on Iconoclasts. They had very different opinions.

[MissMillie]

11. I missed that

I wasn't making a judgment on it, just merely trying to explain why I think it's happening.

I guess I did make a judgment though, when I said I wouldn't use those words.

[suninvited]

13. I dont think that was a judgement

it is just what you yourself haven chosen to do or not to do. I wouldnt use them either. I find them offensive.

[noamnety]

30. Great explanation

It's an entirely different thing to reclaim the word than to use it as an insult. There are factions within each minority group that view it as empowering, and other factions that view it as giving cover to those who use the words as slurs.

Like you, I fall on the side of not using the slurs, I don't find them as empowering because I see the clueless using it as justification - look, THEY used it. They can't figure out that the groups trying to reclaim it are NOT giving white (or straight or male) people permission to continue to use it in a negative bigoted context. The clueless just run around pointing to double standards and whining about racism against white people if white people aren't allowed to use slurs against minorities, as if history doesn't include the dynamics of racial oppression and who has power and who doesn't.

On top of that, I'm very aware of how much those words can affect people people, it can be a trigger when so many people have had those words thrown at them in threatening ways.

As an outsider, I don't think I'm in a position to harshly condemn another group for reclaiming a word, though. It's their identity, not mine, and they do have a right to define themselves. So I look at it as a philosophical difference.

[harmonicon]

41. I don't think there's any use in defining things as "us" and "them"

You said, "It's their identity, not mine, and they do have a right to define themselves.", but I'm not sure if it's that simple. Sure, we as individuals have the right to free speech, but I don't think it's just a philosophical difference. I don't see there being any difference between someone wearing a shirt with the "N" word on it and wearing a shirt that says "I hate jews". I also don't by this reclaiming thing. I'm white, but I have some black friends, some who have been friends for a long time, and I've never ever once heard one of them use the "N" word in any way - and I think if I ever said it, for whatever reason, we would no longer be friends. We are all members of the same society and larger culture. While some differences should be welcomed within one culture, others should not. By accepting that one person can use certain words because of their physical appearance ("race"), we are accepting that it is ok to separate ourselves along racial lines. I reject this division of our society in all ways - today it may be vocabulary, but once the division is made, it's no large leap to expand it to other fields.

[noamnety]

43. "once the division is made"

you make it sound like it's not already there. :)

"I don't see there being any difference between someone wearing a shirt with the "N" word on it and wearing a shirt that says "I hate jews"."

There's a huge difference between wearing a shirt that reflects your own status as a minority group in a defiant way, and wearing a shirt that expresses hate against a group you aren't part of.

Similarly, there is a difference between the website http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/ and a man calling a woman a "bitch."

"accepting that one person can use certain words because of their physical appearance ("race")," <-- that doesn't accurately reflect the power dynamics involved. It's not that they can use it "because of their skin color." It's that they can use it as a member of an oppressed group as a form of in-your-face empowerment referring to themselves, while a member of a privileged group cannot ever use it - not ever, but especially not ever as a slur to demean someone who has less privilege than they have.

I don't support it because of the reasons I stated above - one of them being that privileged people often can't see the distinction and use it to justify hate speech because their dumbassedness gets in the way of their comprehension.

I'm hearing a touch of Colbert's "I'm colorblind" speech here.

[harmonicon]

45. no "colorblind"ness here at all

I'm very aware of the problems of racism, and what has caused it. Sure, the division is already there, but is it ok? I would like to think we would be erasing these lines, not redrawing them for fashion.

More importantly, one person can not speak for an entire group of people. What one man sees as defiance is still a hateful word capable of causing great pain to millions of others. I know that this word hurts people, and our entire culture. I'll defend the man's right to wear and say whatever he wants, but I will not say that it's acceptable, or that I don't understand. Of course I don't understand what it's like to be a minority really, but I don't know what it's like to be anything that I'm not. What I do know is that people I know would be offended by that clothing no matter who wore it - people I know and care about. I'm bothered by it enough.... I can't imagine how bothered I would be if that same material was used to fuel generations of hate against my family.

[noamnety]

46. hmmm.

"I know that this word hurts people,"

You'll see I said the same thing in my own post. I referred to it as a trigger - for PTSD, in case that wasn't clear. I wasn't condoning it - I specifically said I oppose it.

But I recognize the desire in some people to reclaim words, even though I oppose it, and I will speak out when I see people trying to equate a black person reclaiming the word with a white person using that word as a slur. (You can see that in this thread with people trying to draw a parallel between this with Michael Richards.) That's where the colorblindness comment comes from - not acknowledging that there IS a difference in the dynamics depending on who is speaking about whom.

Here's an interview with Nas you might find interesting:

I'm a street disciple," Nas responded, quoting one of his earlier album titles. "I'm talking to the streets. Stay out of our business. You ain't got no business worrying about what the word 'n-----' is or acting like you know what my album is about without talking to me. Whether you in the NAACP or you Jesse Jackson. I respect all of them ... I just want them to know: Never fall victim to Fox. Never fall victim to the sh-- they do. What they do is try to hurry up and get you on the phone and try to get you to talk about something you might not know about yet.

"If Cornel West was making an album called N----, they would know he's got something intellectual to say," Nas continued. "To think I'm gonna say something that's not intellectual is calling me a n-----, and to be called a n---- by Jesse Jackson and the NAACP is counterproductive, counter-revolutionary."

Nas said he hasn't talked to anyone outside his camp about the title, so he was upset to see that people are up in arms without knowing the story behind him choosing the name.

"I wanna make the word easy on mutha----as' ears," he explained. "You see how white boys ain't mad at 'cracker' 'cause it don't have the same (sting) as 'n-----'? I want 'n-----' to have less meaning (than) 'cracker.' With all the bullsh-- that's going on in the world, racism is at its peak. I wanna do the sh-- that's not being done. I wanna be the artist who ain't out. I wanna make the music I wanna hear.

"We're taking power (away) from the word," he added. "No disrespect to none of them who were part of the civil-rights movement, but some of my n---as in the streets don't know who (civil-rights activist) Medgar Evers was. I love Medgar Evers, but some of the n---as in the streets don't know Medgar Evers, they know who Nas is. And to my older people who don't now who Nas is and who don't know what a street disciple is, stay outta this mutha----in' conversation. We'll talk to you when we're ready. Right now, we're on a whole new movement. We're taking power (away) from that word."

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572287/20071018/nas.jhtml

You can agree with his logic, or disagree with it. But it's NOT the same thing as a white person using the word as a slur, and that should be apparent from the interview.

This, too, explains where he's coming from: http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1575258/20071128/nas.jhtml

[BuelahWitch]

4. Didn't Bill Cosby talk about that a few years ago?

And people got upset with him for addressing it?

[VenusRising]

5. I think that it definitely makes it more difficult

to reprimand the ignorant and the hateful if the word is being promoted. Even if it means something different as in the terms of empowerment, I think as long as the word is used in society, there will always be people that use it in the most negative way.

[supernova]

6. Oi. Ignorance trying to pass for hipness

*sigh*

I hate all of those types of words and never use them, even in gest.

[LostinVA]

7. Agreed

[DS1]

10. On the flipside

There's now hip-hop clothing that white kids in Oklahoma (and other states of course, but you get my drift) can never ever wear.

[Shell Beau]

12. I hate seeing that. It makes them look stupid and uneducated.

Not hip and cool!

[Oeditpus Rex]

14. Doesn't do Mel Brooks much good, either

[CatWoman]

15. "The Sheriff is a-near"

:rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

23. Raruh!

[CatWoman]

27. actually, Mongo stole the show in that movie

:rofl:

"Mongo only pawn in game of life"

[underpants]

16. "queens" is he making a comment on homosexuals or something?

I mean COME ON!!!


Actually I saw this in a picture earlier today but didn't post it because, well I like being on DU

[SteppingRazor]

20. Bwahaha!

Yes, clearly a homosexual slur from the Queensbridge, Queens, N.Y. resident. :P

[ghostsofgiants]

24. Pwnt.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Meh.

Sorry, but that doesn't change my opinion on Michael Richards one bit.

[CatWoman]

18. I'm not trying to change your opinion on Richards

............

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Are you trying to convince me that Nas is a racist?

:P

[CatWoman]

29. LOL

No, only that Nas is an idiot. :hi:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I myself have never met Nas.

I've a heard a few of his lyrics and he seems to be interested, vocal, and active in issues concerning African Americans. And I'll have to assume he's not naive of the word, and took considerable time to think about what he was doing, and did it for what he thought were good purposes. And least given that the photo is completely divorced from any context.

:shrug:

[CatWoman]

33. I've never met him either

and don't wish to.

"good" purposes????

give me a break.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. So why do you think he did it?

:shrug:

[CatWoman]

44. some people go beyond the limit in order to get attention

exhibit one:

[noamnety]

47. Does he sound like an idiot in the interview I posted?

post 46, there's an excerpt, and at the end of that post, a link to another interview about his song titles.

Does his interview change your opinion of why he did it at all?

[CatWoman]

48. yes, he does sound like an idiot

and no, it doesn't change my opinion of him.

[noamnety]

49. He doesn't sound like an idiot to me.

I would use different methods, but when he's talking about Medgar Evans or the "barbaric castrations that happened in our past" as an influence for his lyrics, he doesn't sound stupid.


He also didn't sound like an idiot when talking about dealing with racism himself:

Nas described the nights events as they unfolded, "We came to the club, all excited. Couldn't wait to get there. have been sold out every night. The energy from everybody has been crazy. Every time I come to San Diego, the energy's crazy. Go to the venue and they ain't let me in. I was outside with my wife and they treated us like terrorists. It was a little racist and we just don't tolerate that. I just want everybody to know, don't tolerate any form of racism."

Nas said that he and his entourage didn't respond in a way that could have made the situation much worse. Adding, "We deal with racists in a way that they are supposed to get dealt with. We dealt with it in a manner of respect when they should have been disrespected. We just left it alone, you know. It was just a real nasty, racist situation."

...Nas said of the incident on-air, "There is no other side of the story. We were treated like terrorist. We had a whole bunch of security guys rush outside to me and my wife like we were terrorists. Its not like I came with 50 guys or nothing. It was just me, my wife, my DJ and my staff for the 'Hip-Hop Is Dead" tour and they came at us like we was Osama Bin Laden or somebody,"

Nas was quick to point out, "That's a good club. I've played that club twice. I love that club. It must be new management or something, I said 'Do you treat Bon Jovi like this?' They said, 'No.'"

...

http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/id.5195/title.is-nas-a-terrorist

[kwassa]

19. One of the Atlanta crunk rappers standing proudly with the Confederate flag

behind him.

Like, history wasn't his subject.

I think it was Lil Jon, but I couldn't find the photo again.


edit to add:

but here is a video version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vXZESNtkVM

[Shell Beau]

21. What? These people are idiots.

[redqueen]

25. I know I'm in the minority here...

but I really don't think regulating speech is going to help make some people less racist.

[CatWoman]

34. I'm not advocating "regulating speech"

just good taste.

Or taste, period.

It can't hurt.

[ghostsofgiants]

26. Anyone consider that it might be intentional use of irony?

I dunno, just a possibility.

[Oeditpus Rex]

28. Like Dick Gregory?

Note the dedication.

[ghostsofgiants]

32. Haha, that dedication is great.

[Mojambo]

35. Yeah, I don't like those earrings either. n/t

[CatWoman]

36. maybe you should contact Richards or Imus about that

me, I could hardly care about his or her earrings.

[Skittles]

37. here's the deal Midori

I won't think those two ass carrots represent black folk if you don't think people like Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh represent white folk. YES INDEED!!!! :o

[CatWoman]

38. lol

leave it to you, Susan. You hit that one out of the park.

:hi:

Happy Valentines Day!!

:loveya:

[Skittles]

42. :)

:*

[DarkTirade]

40. That's about what I was gonna say.

Only I think you did it better than I would have. :P