Any commercial pilots in the Lounge? Am I paranoid?

[Heidi]

I've gotta fly from Lugano-Agno early Monday morning, with snow/rain in the forecast, to Geneva, and return at 7:30 p.m. the same day to Lugano-Agno Airport.

I've heard and read that our local airport's instrument approach is "challenging" because to the steep angle of descent, thanks to the geographic characteristics of our valley.

Lugano-Agno angle of descent: 6.65°
Standard angle of approach: 3°

I hate-hate-hate flying in these little commuter planes, and I especially hate it at night, when there's rain/snow in the forecast.

Any commercial pilots out there who can calm me down????? :scared: :cry:

[Droopy]

1. I would think that as long as there isn't any ice

and they keep the runway clear that things would go routinely. That's the way it works at my job. But I'm a trucker and not a pilot. And I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :)

[Heidi]

4. Well, I noticed last time I flew this route that I was the ONLY PERSON on the plane

listening the the flight attendant and reviewing the safety instructions from the seat pocket in front of me.

I'm probably extremely paranoid. I don't at all mind flying overseas in a giant plane with lots of people, excellent descent characteristics and a good seat near the safety exits.

However, I do VERY MUCH mind flying over the Alps wearing stockings, a skirt, and pointy-toed "wingtips for chicks," particularly when the angle of descent is "challenging" and I'm the only person who has paid attention to the safety instructions. :cry: :cry:

[rug]

2. Don't know about pilots but I'm sure there are some insurance agents in the lounge.

[Heidi]

5. To be honest, I'm a lot less worried about Call Me Wesley and The Wiley and Excellent Boy Cat Named

Ginger than I am about myself at this point. They're well-provided for should I die. However, I'm not yet 45, and I wish to avoid dying if possible.

[bridgit]

3. Was never a commercial, but had my solo at 18...

I thought I was a good pilot, I bet I could get us where we need to go...lunch in Cortina perhaps :hi:

[Heidi]

6. I'd probably feel better if I were flying with you, b-girl.

But my regular flying companion is my friend and colleague, Davide, who seems to enjoy regaling me with modern-day Donner Party stories of plane crashes in the Alps. :yoiks:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

7. My dear Heidi...

Why don't you PM av8rdave? He is a commercial pilot...

He could most likely reassure you, sweetie!

Have you Googled your airport for crash stats?

That might help.......but then again, maybe not... :scared:

I'm sure you'll be OK...:hug:

[Oeditpus Rex]

8. I don't fly, but

I do know this about people who drive airplanes:

• They're in the plane, too, so they'd just as soon avoid stuff like crashing, or stuff that could lead to crashing.

• Private pilots go through far more training than anyone with a license to operate a motor vehicle that's stuck to the ground. For commercial pilots, it's more than that.

• Driving airplanes is what these people do, and they do it most every day. I'd suspect a landing at this airport in these conditions fazes them no more than you or I would be fazed by a drive to the store in the rain.

Trust the guys up front. They know what they're doing. :hug:

[Sugar Smack]

9. That was GOOD!

You made ME feel better about Heidi flying.:-) So, thanks.

[Oeditpus Rex]

11. Glad to be of service

:patriot:

People who don't like to fly because they fear crashing need to frequently remind themselves that planes just don't crash very easily. Problem is, it's all over the news when they do. If there were reports of equal OMDness for every vehicle accident, folks would be scared out of driving.

Hell, I went up with a guy in a plane he built himself. That's trust. :)

[lost-in-nj]

18. Thanks for posting this

I take a pill to fly and watch the stewardesses reactions to things...

Usually the pill would get me to a place where I think I could fly the plane....

but this makes sense
I will have to remember this......




lost

[Oeditpus Rex]

19. I'd have to pill up to fly

But not because I don't trust the driver, or even because I'm afraid of crashing. When I went up with Ko in his RV-6A, I realized that I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really like the feeling of something solid beneath me.

There's also an element of claustrophobia involved because you can't go outside. :(



RV-6A, shown with human to illustrate size (it's made from a kit):

[lost-in-nj]

20. AAAACCCKKKKK

NO WAY IN HELL
would I get in that....

none......


solid ground rawks!!!!


lost

[Oeditpus Rex]

21. I pilled up for that, too

I was shaking, but I wasn't about to blow the opportunity.

We were airborne for only about 20 minutes and didn't get much past about 2,000 feet, and when we got near the hills the thermal updrafts lifted that little plane like it was a leaf. The cockpit is so small that my left arm was touching Ko's right one.

Wouldn't have missed it for the world. :)

[krispos42]

45. Cool plane!

That looks SO fun!!!!

[Heidi]

26. I love you madly.

Thank you for this. :hug: :hug:

[datasuspect]

43. they know what they are doing

except when they get hit by other planes:

September 25, 1978
San Diego, California
Pacific Southwest Airlines, Flight 182
Boeing B-727-214
N533PS

Midair collision. The PSA was descending and about to land at Lindbergh Field. The Cessna was climbing while engaged in practice approaches. The 727 overtook and struck the Cessna from the rear. The primary cause was the PSA crew lost sight of the Cessna and did not make that fact known to the ATC. The ATC failed to realize from the PSA transmissions that they lost sight of the Cessna. One hundred thirty-five killed on the PSA, two on the Cessna and seven on the ground.

APP = San Diego Approach
TWR = Lindbergh Tower
PSA RT 1 = Radio transmission, Captain
PSA RT 2 = Radio transmission, First Officer
CAM = Cockpit area mike
CAM 1 = Captain
CAM 2 = First Officer
Cam 3 = Flight Engineer
Cam 4 = Deadheading Captain
?? = unknown.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic twelve o'clock, one mile northbound.
08.59:35 PSA RT 1 We're looking.
08.59:30 APP PSA one eighty-two, additional traffic's, ah, twelve o'clock, three miles just north of the field northwest bound, a Cessna one seventy-two climbing VFR out of one thousand four hundred.
08:59:50 PSA RT 2 Okay, we've got that other twelve.
08.59:57 APP Cessna seven seven one one golf, San Diego departure radar contact, maintain VFR conditions at or below three thousand five hundred, fly heading zero seven zero, vector final approach course.
09.00:16 APP PSA one eighty-two, traffic's at twelve o'clock, three miles out of one thousand seven hundred.
09.00:21 CAM 2 Got'em.
09.00:22 PSA RT 1 Traffic in sight.
09.00:23 APP Okay, sir, maintain visual separation, contact Lindbergh tower one three three point three, have a nice day now.
09.00:28 PSA RT 1 Okay.
09.00:34 PSA RT 1 Lindbergh PSA one eighty-two downwind.
09.00:38 TWR PSA one eighty-two, Lindbergh tower, ah, traffic twelve o'clock one mile a Cessna.
09.00:41 CAM-2 Flaps five.
09.00:43 CAM 1 Is that the one we're looking at.
09.00:43 CAM 2 Yeah, but I don't see him now.
09.00:44 PSA RT 1 Okay, we had it there a minute ago.
09.00:47 TWR One eighty-two, roger.
09.00:50 PSA RT 1 I think he's passed off to our right.
09.00:51 TWR Yeah.
09.00:52 CAM 1 He was right over here a minute ago.
09.00:53 TWR How far are you going to take your downwind one eighty-two, company traffic is waiting for departure.
09.00:57 PSA RT 1 Ah probably about three to four miles.
09.00:59 TWR Okay.
09.01:07 TWR PSA one eighty-two, cleared to land.
09.01:08 PSA RT 1 One eighty-two's cleared to land.
09.01:11 CAM 2 Are we clear of that Cessna?
09.01:13 CAM- Suppose to be.
09.01:14 CAM 1 I guess.
09.01:20 CAM 4 I hope.
09.01:21 CAM-1 Oh yeah, before we turned downwind, I saw him about one o'clock, probably behind us now.
09.01:38 CAM-2 There's one underneath.
09.01:39 CAM 2 I was looking at that inbound there.
09.01:45 CAM 1 Whoop!
09.01:46 CAM 2 Aghhh!
09.01:47 CAM Sound of impact
09.01:48 CAM 1 On shit!
09.01:49 CAM-1 Easy baby, easy baby.
09.01:51 CAM
09.01:51 CAM-1 What have we got here?
09.01:52 CAM-2 It's bad.
09.01:53 CAM-2 We're hit man, we are hit.
09.01:56 RDO-1 Tower, we're going down, this is PSA.
09.01:57 TWR Okay, we'll call the equipment for you.
09.01:58 CAM
CAM 1 This is it baby!
CAM ? Bob
CAM 1 Brace yourself.
CAM ? Hey baby..
CAM? Ma I love you..
09.02:04

[Droopy]

10. Hey Heidi. I just remembered that trof is a retired commercial pilot

You might try shooting him a pm if he doesn't show up here.

[TrogL]

12. Two accidents - zero injuries

...for the entire history of the airport. In both cases, aircraft ran off the end of the runway by a bit.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/airport/airport.php?id=LUG

Here's a longer article about the controversy

http://www.airlinecrew.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-171321.html

What kind of aircraft is it?

[Heidi]

24. Flight out is an F7 4 Saab Turboprop.

Inbound flight is on an F7 5 Saab Turboprop (according to the flight info at the website where I booked my ticket). Carrier is Darwin Airlines.

Thank you so much for the links to the two accidents. Both planes had very few occupants besides crew, and neither was the airline I'm flying, so that makes me feel much, much better, TrogL. Thank you soooooooooo much! :hug: :hug:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. Darwin Airlines? The NAME would make me take a train.

:rofl:

Anyway, I'm sure the flight will be just fine.

Better if you have good drugs.

And it'll be superb if you have good drugs AND it's a"clothing optional" flight. That's the only news we hear about flying in Europe these days.

:hi:

[Heidi]

35. STOP!!!!

The Darwin thing occurred to me the first time I had to do a day trip to Geneva. I swear, I scare the bejeezs out of myself. :rofl:

(I will, by the way, be fully clothed and unmedicated before, during and after the flight(s). It's a business thingy. :P )

[DemoTex]

39. Saab F7 = Saab 2000. Very advanced turboprop technology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_2000


Saab 2000 (notice the props with 6 scimitar-shaped blades each)

[cboy4]

13. Heidi, I can't imagine your crew would be flying into

that airport without being completely familiar with the terrain...especially during bad weather.

[Heidi]

25. Oh, I have absolute confidence in the flight crew.

If I didn't, I'd just bite the bullet and get on the train at 6 a.m. tomorrow morning for the six-hour ride to Geneva.

Part of my problem is my friend/colleague with whom I'll be flying. He seems to enjoy discussing plane crashes in the Alps just as we're passing over the Alps. Last two times we've flown to/from Geneva together, these observations have been unhelpful. :P

[Oeditpus Rex]

14. Girlfriend, you need to watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJSey8HRUhU

It's pre-Monty Python, but a tiny bit of it was incorporated into the "Bomb On Plane" sketch in episode 35, in which Michael Palin as the pilot says, "Our destination is Glasgow; there is no need to panic."



:D

[cordelia]

15. Not a pilot, but I am in the aviation biz...

What airline are you using, if I may ask?

I would think you'd be safer in a smaller craft given the maneuvers required to land.

Try not to worry.

[harmonicon]

16. you shouldn't worry, but if you are worried, why not just take a train?

I know it will take longer, but it's not THAT far.

[Heidi]

22. Train = 6 hours from Lugano to Geneva, and 6 hours back.

Plane = 40 minutes from Lugano to Geneva and 50 minutes back.

For a four-hour meeting, I don't want to spend 12 hours of the day on the train. x(

[harmonicon]

38. you could leave right now and make a day of it?!

[DemoTex]

17. I've flown into Lugano and London City several times for a magazine article.

Both Lugano and London City have steep approaches and require special aircrew and aircraft certification. I flew several legs into both Lugano and London City in the jump-seats of Crossair 4-engine AVRO-RJs (aka BAE-146s). That was a real confidence builder! Those guys were great.

In fact, I was briefed on the London City/Lugano operations by the Crossair chief pilot at the time, an American from Texas, at the Crossair headquarters in Basel. I remember André Dosé being in on the briefings, but that might have been before he became CEO of Swissair. I had previously interviewed Moritz Suter, the Swissair captain who founded Crossair.

Then I went to the British Aerospace (BAe) Avro facility at Chester, England, and trained for a week with BAe's chief AVRO-RJ test pilot at the time, Dan Gurney, to fly the London City profile myself with Dan Gurney as co-pilot in an empty AVRO-RJ. All went well.

The steep glide-slope is flown just like a 3-degree slope. The GPWS (Ground Proximity Warning System) decent rate warning is inhibited close to the ground because of the closure rate on the 6.65-degree glide-slope. The flare for landing comes a bit quick, but a little practice makes that second nature. London City's runway is so short (3500-ft or so?) that heavy braking is required right after touchdown, which might alarm a passenger who has never done it before.

You have nothing to worry about. Lugano is a safe operation.


SN Brussels AVRO RJ85

[Heidi]

23. Thank you!

I'm feeling a bit better about it today. The weather's looking better, too. There'll probably be some snow in the Alps, and maybe a bit of rain on the ground, but it doesn't look like there'll be snow on the ground. :bounce:

[Callalily]

27. Wishing you a safe

and uneventful flight! :hug:

[Heidi]

30. Thank you, gf!

I'm sure everything will be just fine. The best part of traveling is coming home to The Wiley and Excellent Boy Cat Named Ginger (and CMW <-- almost forgot! :P )

[Omphaloskepsis]

28. I'm sure the pilots don't want to die just as much as you don't want too.

I would trust their judgment. And can I have CMW if something does happen?

[Heidi]

29. Frankly, I'm a bit hurt that you're placing dibs on CMW instead of

The Wiley and Excellent Boy Cat Named Ginger. :P

Nice to see you. I've missed bumpin' into you around here. :hug:

[Omphaloskepsis]

31. I will take both of them.

I will just have to buy a bigger bag of cat food.

I finished moving and am still trying to get things sorted out in the new place. It is nice to be warm and have walls and light. My old room didn't have windows. And it is nice to walk on the floor without shoes. My old room had a cement floor. I can finally have people over without shame. And now I don't feel like punching everything I see. Really, I didn't realize how depressing my old room was. I feel like a new man.

[Heidi]

32. Right on!

Congratulations on your new digs, R. Having windows and light will do wonders for your synapses (not that you need help with _your_ synapses -- but I know that I just can't exist without natural light. :yoiks: )

:hug: :hug:

[Omphaloskepsis]

34. My sister and her husband did so much work on the place.

This is the place about six months ago...



Now it has a new floor, safe electricity, cable TV, cable Internet, new walls, new paint, new ceiling, and most of the junk has been ripped out. And my sister made me snazzy curtains that are lined with insulation.

[Heidi]

36. It's good you didn't show that photo six months ago.

I'd have had you on every prayer list on two continents. I'm awfully glad you survived that! :hug: :hug:

[Omphaloskepsis]

37. I never lived in there when it was that bad...

That was a pic of the new place before we fixed it up. I paid 1100$ for the RV and 400$ to fix it up. It actually runs too.

My old place was much worse. Like it was amazing that I didn't kill myself bad. I will post pics of the after when I can find batteries for my camera.

[Heidi]

40. Thanks, everyone, and especially the wonderfully encouraging DemoTex.

I survived. My Darwin Airlines 17:35 flight from Geneva to Lugano was delayed for more than two hours due to snow and rain in Lugano, but I arrived home safely after the bumpy, 35-minute flight, between 11 and 11:30 a.m. Darwin Airlines rocks, y'all, because they didn't divert the flight to Milano/Malpensa as originally suggested at the gate. :bounce:

[Parche]

41. This Is the Aircraft

Its Darwin Airlines, FLY Baboo codeshare airlines

Its the SAAB 2000, they can get you in, its a great aircraft,

I fly the 717 on my simulator, which is a jet, and I do sharp approaches into
Juneau, Alaska all the time......:hi:

[Heidi]

42. Thank you, Parche. I flew in and out of Geneva last night.

I was hoping you'd show up earlier, but I survied it all. The Darwin/flybaboo people were superb! :hug: :hug:

[krispos42]

44. That's not scary... Hong Kong is scary...

Here's a Boeing 747 landing there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8

And another 747 with a stiff crosswind...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtnL4KYVtDE







The angle of decent is not what they hit the runway at, it's what they use to get close to the runway. Once they are about to touch down, they pull up and cut power, "flaring" gently onto the tarmac.

Pilots have several systems to make sure they are on the correct glide path to the runway. One is visual. It's two rows of red/white lights at the end of the runway with lenses on them. If both rows are red, you're too low. If the top row is white and the bottom is red, you're okay. And if both are white, you're too high.



There is an electronic radio-beacon-based system as well called the Instrument Landing System. A receiver in the plane shows both the centerline of the runway and the glideslope you're suppose to be on to get down. There's a screen with a set of fixed crosshairs on it. The runway centerline is displayed as a vertical line and the glideslope is displayed as a horizontal line. The pilot just has to jockey the plane until the centerline and glideslope lines are centered in the crosshairs.



Finally, the airport has a radar system for approaches. A controller watches the position of the plane relative to the glideslope and calls out corrections.

You'll be fine. Be more concered with the weather!

[av8rdave]

46. That is pretty steep

However, I suspect the crew flying will have had a lot experience with that approach, so I doubt you have anything to worry about. The biggest risk with an approach like that is winding up too high to make the landing work out on that runway. When that happens, it's just a matter of missing the approach and doing it again.