Drunken question for the night, Lounge...are people inherently good?

[TK421]

In your opinion, or any personal experience you have had that made you think otherwise ( most welcome now )

I've come across many different kinds of people in my life, and they can be broken down into several categories, although I'm too drunk to list them. Once, while working at a liquor store I had this guy at the counter who asked me this question " Do you think people are inherently good"? I just shook my head no...since I just got done dealing with some of the most annoying assholes who were pissed off at the fact that we didn't have any more of their favorite bottom-shelf scotch on hand. He sensed that, I think....also sensed that I was having a bad day. He said " I think they are, man...I really think they are" and laughed a little, because the person in line before him had some kind of rebate voucher on hand for a case of the stuff that had expired three weeks before that time.

I see so much ugliness in the world today, and sometimes I feel like it is consuming me and turning me into what the rest of society has become. Ever since I was little, I've always had people telling me that I could be whatever the hell I wanted to be because of my personality and manner of speaking. I still don't get it, I suppose.... I guess I have much to learn, still.....

Sometimes, when you sit at a bar ( in this case, a bar that typically caters to the more affluent in the area, but still manage to get a lager for $4.00 ) you overhear tiny snippets of a conversation, and although you don't know these people personally, you think to yourself "Damn...I'm glad I'm not in that situation" OR it could be the other way around..."Well...I just wrote off a check for $1800.00 to cover that expense, since this person didn't live up to their end of the bargain...I'll just eat it, that's how it goes ".

Eighteen hundred dollars?! Yeah, that was one of those snippets, and it really got me thinking. Perhaps I'm not where I need to be in life right now...I work for a non-profit organization that really doesn't pay all that well, and although I like working there I must be missing out on something here ( probably more money ) It makes me think that I've wasted the last six years of my life on something that will not pay out in the end. Some of these people are at least ten years my junior, mind you...and perhaps ( if I built a time machine ) I could go back and do some things differently...but we all know that is not possible.

But some people seem to just want more than what they have, even if what they already have is enough for any of us to want badly enough to kill for ( but not in the literal sense, of course ). I wonder if most of us have any idea how some people around us REALLY live their lives...and are without some of the luxuries that so many of us take for granted every day. Take a look around....I've bitched PLENTY of times about my living conditions concerning these fucking annoying roommates of mine and their annoying quirks...but then I have to think about those who live in this town who don't even have a roof over their head.....the homeless that sleep in the park by the river ( right down the street ) and the police that patrol that riverside kicking out said homeless people because they are a scourge upon the very image that the community is trying to keep up.


What a depressing state of affairs......and I apologize for the long post, I guess I just had to get it out of my system, is all.

[begin_within]

1. What is your definition of "good?"

[TK421]

6. What I think I am, I suppose....I don't know

live by the golden rule, I suppose...don't be judgemental of others. Try to be charitable, when needed. I suppose there is much to be said about this. Some people tend to be self-centered assholes, and I am not...so don't be a self-centered asshole. Some people tend to judge by appearance, I do not. Good is, indeed a rather fuzzy term, in my opinion...but I think most of it has to do with common sense

[begin_within]

8. I think humans have to learn all these things to be good, and many do not learn them.

So I would probably say that humans by their nature are inherently selfish and therefore not "good." But they have the capability of learning to be "good" though an individual may not necessarily learn to be "good."

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. The older I get, the more I think that God created maybe 1% of us, at most, with desire for good

and potential to contribute positively to the universe and the will to actually do it.

About another 10% are designed to be destroyers.

The rest are just sheep, designed to follow orders and keep the material things working so that the 1% can do what we're here to do, or to wage war, or to do whatever any authority tells them to d, and be satisfied with working their job, slamming some beers at the end of he day, watching sports on TV or hosting Pampered Chef parties, eating shitty food and consuming shitty art and basically avoiding any kind of critical thought, curiosity, or exploration of their intellect or the world. And much of the authority in the world (from government to mid-management) comes out of this group as well, though some come out of the destructive 10%.

[TK421]

10. The scary part , for me is that I'm not completely sure which percentage

I fall into there....because everyone may have a different opinion on that take ( although your take is a very rational one ) Keep in mind that we do not deal with rational people on a daily basis, and when we do, we may not know how to react to them at that time....I've been taken by surprise by people whom I've thought were just "out there"....but after talking to them after maybe an hour or so, my opinion of them changed drastically....


Sometimes, though...it really would be best if I kept my mouth shut, I think

[Xipe Totec]

13. That reminds me of Tarahumaran mythology

the Tarahumara indians believe that the devil, not God, created the world.

They argue that a benevolent God could not possibly create such misery.

They also believe that white men are the devil's minions.

They literally run away from Europeans.

[flvegan]

3. Yes, people are inherently good. The human ego drives decisions, though.

Every single wrong in the world begins with the spoken/unspoken "I Want"

Therein lies the problem.

[TK421]

11. "I want, I need, I would really like to have"....

Doesn't it all seem like it's material shit, though? That bothers me....you don't take it with you when you die....some people seem to think that.

The ego is the WORST thing we possess, I think...you nailed that one, alright. It's what really keeps us from gaining our true potential in life, because it's always there at the back of our minds telling us that we need more, need to achieve more, and want more than what we really need...when all we really need to do is look around us, and see how fortunate some of us really are in life

[flvegan]

15. Doesn't even need to be material things.

Think about it. Any problem on the planet can be chased back to the simple phrase, "I want"

Mostly though, you're right, it comes down to material stuff.

[TK421]

17. Infants want, from the moment they are conceived...I know

Infants also NEED, but adults hang onto the "want" throughout most of their lives. I know what you're saying. Most of it is simple greed..

I'm happy to have a roof over my head and food in the fridge ( peanut butter included ) but sometimes, as much as I struggle...I always manage to meet someone who is in a more dire situation than myself.

Makes you think.

[KG]

4. yes, until they're about 7 years old. then it's all down hill for humanity

[TK421]

14. Kids....it's depressing the moment they know what life is really like

when they start that first job, and save up money for...lets say a car. Then, they find out the pitfalls of owning a car ( the insurance, the fortune you need for gas just to keep the fucking thing running, the repairs etc... ) then, life becomes bitter, and you become bitter. Then, you start getting bills in the mail from you credit card ( because perhaps you were taught that you should start to build good credit ) and that credit card bill is maxed out, because now you are living on your own, and have gone over your credit limit ( honest oversight, in my case ) Now you are being screwed for interest and working your ass off to pay off this credit card and you find yourself in yet another financial pinch where you need the money badly, but don't have the cash...


I'm speaking from experience here...but I don't mean to get off of the subject of the OP...

I just thought that was another reason that people are so bitter these days

[lost-in-nj]

5. TK421

I have met people that would take a bullet for me
to people that would hold me in front of a bullet meant for them.....
you find out FAST who your true friends are

I would hold any DUer in a position where
they would not be hurt

any one



lost

[TK421]

16. thank you

I wish I had your attitude right now :hug:

[Fire Walk With Me]

7. Are people inherently good? As the economy fails...

...let's find out.

[TK421]

21. My grandmother lived through the depression...and from what I've heard

people had a tendency to stick together in those tough times...they had to. There wasn't much of a choice back then. Today? Uh-uh....

This may seem a bit off -topic, but a co-worker of mine recently got me hooked on a comic book. It's called "Transmetropolitan" and the main character is a journalist by the name of Spider Jerusalem. Anyway, this story is set in the future, where society is a total mess....a religion is born every hour, and just about every person you meet is on drugs so they can escape the reality of that existence, and politics is such a game show. Spider Jerusalem confronts these phony bastards, and sometimes beats the hell out of them....he's a gutsy, crude, often unapproachable person...but he has a sense of justice about him.

[Xipe Totec]

9. Interesting Question

[Sugar Smack]

12. Bookmarking for later.

:pals: :yourock:

[TK421]

27. Hey...I've had a really weird night

you rock, too

[MissMillie]

18. I can't figure people out at all

and I learned a long time ago that to measure myself against others regarding my jog, my salary, my house, etc. is ridiculous.

I do the best I can in the things that are important to me, and I try to find some happiness in the journey.

That's all we have.

But in the end, it's usually more than enough.

[TK421]

28. You're right along the same line of thought as I am, it seems

I do what I can, when I can....and if there is a food drive involved I donate almost half of what is in my cabinet here ( we call it the "whatever" cabinet ) to the local drive.

This is a weird town...so many destitute, and so many rich shoved into a space of maybe eight city blocks? And the local politics? I can't get into that one, I'm afraid....let's just say that there are people of...ummmm...influence around here. ( no cement blocks on my feet tonight, no thank you ).

[Inchworm]

19. I waded into GD last week with a poll along these lines

I kind of baited though using religion/spirituality as a definer of who taught the reader their "goodness."

Personally, I think people are just people. Good is relative. I don't know if I read this or made it up but "in a society of thieves the best pickpocket is good."

We learn to survive as a massive parasite on the earth I think, as sad as that sounds.

:hi:

[Xipe Totec]

20. It's better to be nice than good

Nice means always be willing to cooperate, be the first to cooperate, retaliate when you are wronged, but be willing to forgive and start over afterwards.

You might enjoy reading "The Evolution of Cooperation"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation

[Inchworm]

25. Ohhh yes!

This looks good from what I skimmed on wiki. A kind of "Tragedy of the Commons" sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

I do enjoy that type of reading.

Thanks!

:applause:

[Xipe Totec]

26. Yes, I am familiar with the Tragedy of the Commons

Very apropos comparison :thumbsup:

Also closely related to the Voter's Paradox:

http://perspicuity.net/sd/vp-brf.html

Which also quotes "The Tragedy of the Commons"

[Inchworm]

30. I hope that browser is open in the morning

I am a slow reader and must absorb it all.

I dont want to kill my beer buzz :P

Thanks though. I always say I am not a reader, but I read stuff like that alll the time.

:yourock:

[TK421]

31. That is SO right n/t

[TK421]

29. I try to do the best that I can...although that may not be enough to me, sometimes

I'll be honest...if I hit the Powerball jackpot ( P.A's jackpot ) and won 70 million, I would just pay off my credit card debt, give a generous portion to every immediate family member...and the rest, I would just give to the borough for their revitalization project ( which is enormous ) I would hope it makes a difference in the lives of the residents here, and make this town what it used to be famous for once again ( not since the 70's ). Most residents here still remember those times

[Xipe Totec]

39. You may enjoy reading this archived thread

Have you Ever Done an Outrageous Act of Kindness?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3444530

[TK421]

43. I'll look into it...I'm cooking at the moment ( drunken hunger )

thanks! :D

[cuke]

22. I think all people have seeds of both good and bad in them

How they turn out depends on which is nurtured more

[TK421]

35. That is what I am questioning tonight...about myself, because I just don't know

as I mentioned in a post above ( somewhere ) I don't know where I stand anymore. As strange as this may sound, I have had people who I have never met come up to me and just open up to me at that point in time....for no reason. I try to be polite and reciprocate, but in the back of my mind I'm asking myself "Does this person know I work for the Theatre, and are they just trying to get free tickets by buying me a couple of beers"? A couple of beers is about $6.00....two theatre tickets is about $70.00....you do the math...

Sure, I could do it...I work in the Box Office..I could pretty much do anything as far as comps go, but it only goes so far.

[cuke]

41. You probably have some of both

just like most people. I wouldn't sweat it too much. What you've been isn't as important as what you're going to be.

[TK421]

48. I hope what I'm going to be is a lot more than what I am now

I hear what you are saying...I do...but can you see how easily discouraged someone can be by observing this bullshit every day?

[cuke]

50. Yes, I can see it

on a daily basis.

I'm not trying to give you one of those "just snap out of it" lectures. Since I have an anxiety disorder and slight depression, I know for a fact that it doesn't work. I'm just giving you a little nudge to look in the right direction.

I know how hard it can be when I dwell on these things for too long. What I've found is that thinking about what I might do about it, and then doing it, helps a lot even if whatever I did wasn't all that helpful. Just moving in the right direction helps me feel a bit more in control and gives me a bit of hope.

[TK421]

52. I also have an anxiety disorder...although it's centered around groups of people

I don't know if your disorder is the same...but I've actually been prescribed Xanax for it ( for about three years I was on the stuff ) and it helped a great deal. I've been thinking that I should look into a refill on that.

I'm trying to make the most out of this situation...I really am, but every day it is getting more difficult.

Thanks for your response to this...

[mopinko]

23. altruism is a risky scheme. we are programmed to be

careful about entering into it. only those people who are conceived, born and raised in an environment where their basic needs are met will develop into altruistic beings. others will develop the skills and attitudes that are required to survive in a harsh environment.
the human fetus interrogates its environment constantly. it assesses it's mother's stress hormones, and develops accordingly. stronger muscles, sharper focus and quicker reactions instead of enhanced verbal abilities, and more global intelligence. more tolerance for pain instead of greater empathy.
the human animal is a complex and fascinating creature.

[TK421]

32. Unfortunately...society itself shapes that animal into whatever it wants it to be

whether the animal has a choice or not...and look at the temptations society has to offer.....

If you don't have sex before the age of twenty, then you must be either gay or have some kind of mental disorder....or you were sexually molested at an early age so there is a negative connotation on the very thought of having sex into adulthood, therefore barring any emotional connection you would otherwise have with what you would think of as a "compatible partner" But here's the kicker...how would you define a "compatible partner" these days? Most people have no morals or any standards to live by...most of them just want a lay. I got sick of that shit VERY quickly. It means nothing....

If you've never experimented with drugs of any kind, you are not "tuned in" to what is going on...but I'm happy to report that this applies to roughly 20% of the general population...as most of us HERE have either experimented with mind-altering substances ( and had a great time doing it ) and just MOVED THE FUCK ON....

This is my take on the situation

[TK421]

24. Pardon me for a moment, while I break for a Tab and vodka n/t

[Arugula Latte]

33. I'd say neither good nor bad...Just animals struggling for themselves.

Unfortunately, that often involves hurting other humans and other living creatures. :(

[TK421]

37. You got it

You got it right there...we are just animals, struggling for ourselves..struggling to survive. We will do everything and anything in order to get what we want ( and need )....you're right..

and it sickens me that you are right...because it sickens me that it is what I have also become....something that I have fought off for most of my life, because I should have learned my lesson by observing the lives of those around me. Now....I just feel like I'm part of the disease, because I've done nothing to stop it from spreading

[Haole Girl]

34. Here is my drunken evaluation about your subject:

People are products of their upbringing. It's the old nature vs nurture. There are no inherently evil people... IMHO. But, through their experiences and surroundings, they become that way sometimes. Again, this is just my personal take on it. Now I'll go read what everybody else wrote!

[TK421]

40. Babe....you know everything you write I take seriously

I hear you. I wasn't brought up to be this way...I was brought up to treat everyone with respect. If I was walking past a homeless person with my mom, she would give that person money and say to me "Do you see what we have? This is what we give". Thankfully, this woman is still with me...a true Democrat, at heart...

Where my mother worked ( at a hospital as an E.R receptionist ) for thirteen years, where she also met my father ( I practically grew up around a hospital,folks... ) there was a black security guard that went by the name of "Burly", who's name was Charles, used to make sure that my mom got out to her car safely every night ( there were a lot of muggings going on at that time, apparently ) We had Burly over our house for dinner at least twice a week ( he loved my mom's meatloaf and stuffed cabbage ). He was considered part of our family from that time forth....

Sadly, he developed heart disease and died in 1998...we found out later from a person that worked with my mom at the hospital. This hit us hard.....we remembered this man and what he meant to us, even after all these years....my family, we don't forget.

Sometimes I really think there are evil people in this world...people I come across that seem to be completely evil....and I really want to strangle the shit out of them ( one less evil person in the world? ) but because of legal ramifications, that is not possible....

[Capn Sunshine]

36. I'm not drunk, but

I'm pretty high :)

I think people are good,
once they get past themselves and check to see if there's anything left.

[Xipe Totec]

38. People are good, yes. But not everyone is people nt

[TK421]

42. Can they really get past themselves, though?

can they do that? I really don't think humans are capable of that.

We land on the Moon.......big fucking WHOOP....we land on the "rock" closest to our planet, and claim to have made a dent in scientific breakthrough...no, we haven't....that is just a drop in the bucket

Sex is a life-altering experience.....ummmmm, nope...that would be called an orgasm, and if you're trying to fool yourself into thinking that it is some kind of life-altering experience or some kind of out-of-body moment of self-enlightenment...then you are the real fool...


Hey...why are you craving a cigarette afterwards? Not satisfying enough for you? hahahaha

I've heard people talk about this shit, and I've tolerated it up until the point where I can actually taste the bile....nope...thats just-not-the-case. Human beings are not capable of actions that give them the sensation of floating on air, or being enlightened beyond the point of reasoning that other humans have no sense of or mental ability to comprehend ( although, I'm sure those fucks would like to think so ...boost their ego a bit ). The very fact that someone is capable of this kind of thing is just a mental hemorrhoid to me.

[Labors of Hercules]

44. NO.

people have to work hard to be good. By nature we are self-serving assholes.

[TK421]

45. Your answer makes sense...I'm not so sure about the sentiment, though

:shrug: was some of that intended as sarcasm?

[Labors of Hercules]

46. just a wee bit. bout that I- -I much. nt

[TK421]

49. I'm sorry...I didn't understand that part

[Whisp]

47. yes.

everyone has their stories. if you listen.
then it's not so bad after all.

[TK421]

51. I try to listen, and sometimes it's difficult....

some people I just tune out completely...and then there are those whose stories seem to coincide with my own experiences, and then it just seems to click right then.

And then there are some people whom you have never had contact with that just give off that funny vibe that they are just human slime....that has happened more times than I can count....should I just shove that off to the fact that they are possibly going through a change in their lives...or perhaps they have already been there, and just want some more?

There are some real bottom-feeders out there, and I wish they would all just die. Does that make me a bad person? I'm just asking, honestly...or should I just live and let live?

[RushIsRot]

53. My take on your question is this: There are inherently good people

and then, there are Rethuglicans. They are beyond redemption although they claim religiosity, they do not live it. They are greedy beyond words. Perhaps they deserve pity. I think they deserve prison.

[The Inquisitive]

54. I don't like the good vs evil dichotomy when evaliating human nature

I prefer Lawful vs Chaotic... a bit like DnD I guess... I'm Chaotic Good, and Ranger, like Aragon! man what a bad ass.

[MilesColtrane]

55. Yes. People are inherently good...

...AND evil.

Therein lies the problem.

[idgiehkt]

56. One thing I read once that I believe

and it was one of the Buddhist teachers that said it but I can't remember which one, is that every human action springs from the desire to be loved. Every single one. I know that the psychiatric field believes that a certain percentage of the population are sociopathic, that's a gray area in itself because there are so many addictions (coping mechanisms) that kill capacity for remorse that when active can make someone appear sociopathic. I believe most sociopaths are made not born, and excessive materialism is a sign of inner lack. I do believe people are inherently good, but we are also primates, even as children we can be way too clever for our own good.