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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:06 AM
Original message
Poll question: GLBT DUers, please answer this poll.
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 08:16 AM by Bertha Venation
Please answer only if you are GLBT. Your opinion is valid if you're straight but really, I need poll responses only from queer folk. If you're straight, do feel free to comment.

I told a Republican in another forum, "you are wrong; my fight for equality has nothing to do with 'acceptance of my lifestyle.'" He countered, "Come on Bertha, maybe not you, but what about the rest of the gays?" (That's paraphrased)

Do you do what you do in fighting for our equality out of a need of acceptance for anything? Acceptance for your "lifestyle" ( :grr:)? Acceptance for -- what?

The point of this "acceptance" is from mainstream Americans. I think the guy's ultimate point has to do with the bullshit notion that we "shove it down their throats."

So for the purpose of this poll, "acceptance" is defined as "making everyone say, 'yes! It's okay for you to be gay!'" or something similar. Here, "acceptance" is NOT defined as "equal rights" -- because the guy I'm debating thinks they are the same thing. They're not.

Ask me questions before answering if I have been unclear.

Please answer the poll, then PLEASE ELABORATE.

Thank you.

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I fight for equality for all people
Because I want a tolerant American society for everybody to live in.

No, I don't care whether people accept our private lives or not, I just don't want them shooting at us when we walk down the street.

Interesting poll.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. We are not second class citizens. And there are some out there who would..
want us to be second class citizens. Including the current President of the United States.

We deserve the same rights straight people do. It's that simple.

Terry
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
3. To be totally honest
I don't give a good goddamn if he (or they) accept me (and my "lifestyle" ha, ha, ha...) or not. Give me EQUAL RIGHTS and then leave me the f**k alone. I promise to leave you alone too. And, no, I'm not interested in "recruiting" your children; if they're gay, they'll discover it soon enough and then spend the rest of their lives "shoving it down your throat".

You might suggest that the asshole get a life and spend less of his obviously limited brainpower worrying about what others do in bed.
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gator_in_Ontario Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Acceptance is NOT what it is about...
you can't legislate how people feel about something or someone. Ultimately it's about everyone being equal under the law.
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Drifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Comment from a Straight ...
recovering Homophobe.

I used to be quite homophobic. I once suggested (to a person I did not know was gay) a way to deal with Aids. "Take all the Aids people, and the homos, put'em on an island and do Nuclear Warhead testing". That statement marked the beginning of my recovery, since EVERY male that work in this restaurant was gay. Word spread fast. I was not very popular.

Anyways back to my point. Acceptance is something that I may never achieve. But I have come to realize that this is MY problem, and not the problem of the gay community. In fact, the thought of a gay relationship makes me somewhat uncomfortable (much less now than my Nuclear Warhead testing days). I'm sure this is the same feeling that some gays may have about hetro relationships.

The greatest lesson that I learned is that it does not effect me either way. People are going to do what is comfortable and natural to them, and there is not much that can be done about it.

BTW, I did not vote in the poll, as per your request.

Cheers
Drifter
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Drifter, you have learned tolerance
and that's what's important. Acceptance is another matter, and not what any of us seem to be after it would appear from this poll so far.

Cheers to you...
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Drifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Thank you ...
I wish more people (particularly homophobes) could experience what I did. It was quite eye opening. I was never exposed to gay people growing up, and that is most likely what allowed these homophobic behaviors to fester and grow within me. It was not uncommon to here gay bashing type phrases (what are you gay ?, that is so gay) in everyday language. It was OK because it did not apply to anyone real.

Once I was exposed to a lot of gay people (job at restaurant), I learned that fundamentally, gay people are exactly the same as me. We have the same goals, the same dreams, the same problems, etc.

I like to talk about my transformation from homophobic to tolerence, because it was a drastic transformation. I actually think I am beyond tolerence, and consider myself gay friendly. I am fully in favor of gay marriage rights. It is only fair.

Cheers
Drifter
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Wow. My story to a tee.
Minus the restaurant part. I was spared that kind of experience.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. My story of overcoming prejudice
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 02:31 PM by JCCyC
A friend of mine says prejudice is a byproduct of ignorance, and he's right.

It all began in the BBS era, circa 1993-94. Up to that point I had only seen any gay people in pop-culture caricatures. Not much help. Queer jokes were part of the school culture, and accusing somebody of being gay was one of the most standard childish taunts in use. I took part on all that, gleefully. All enabled by ignorance. It went like that, unabated, until my late 20s.

Then I got online. And I started joining BBS communities, for it was fun. In a PCBoard-based BBS, I joined the auto racing and X-Files rooms.

One of the members was a lesbian. She was outspoken and activist. It hit me as WEIRD at first, but immediately some dormant subroutines in my brain kicked in. Suddenly gay people were no longer an abstract concept, but an attribute of an intelligent, friendly person I enjoyed talking to online. Any prejudice I had went down like a house of cards. Over time, I met other gay people, and it eventually became only another attribute people might have, like baldness or a taste for Doritos.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the genesis of the sissified, hell-bound, dirty rotten liberal fag-enabling JCCyC you know and love.

Edit: typo
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. Would be nice if we could 'all get along'.
Eternal optimist that I am, I hope for that rosey future when nobody cares about sexual orientation or ethnicity or anything else. In the meantime, I just want my goddam civil rights and to not be treated as a second-class citizen. If they want to hate me in private, that's acceptable. It's not a positive thing, but I can live with it!

Dirk
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
8. Not Just "No"... But HELL-NO!
Fuck-no even.

I don't give a rat's rectum what anyone "thinks" of me personally. If they have a problem with me, then it's THEIR problem not mine.

I want equality. Legal equality. Equal rights and equal protection and equal benefits. Not "separate but equal" not "essentially equal" not "approximately equal" but GENUINELY TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY EQUAL.

Whether or not someone "accepts" me is totally up to them. I don't care one way or the other.

-- Allen

P.S. I truly dislike the term "lifestyle". (I notice that you put it in quotation marks too.) It implies that my innate sexuality is chosen in the same way that I choose a fashion style, or a style of living.

Constant partying is a "lifestyle". Being a homebody is a "lifestyle". Being Queer is not a lifestyle. --- There is definitely Queer culture and a Queer experience and some people refer to that (loosely) as a "lifestyle", but that generally not what's meant most of the time.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I despise that word : "lifestyle"
What the fuck IS a "gay lifestyle", anyway?

Jetting all around the country, attending every circuit party? Nope. Definitely not for me.

Liking a certain type of music or wearing the same kind of clothes every other gay man wears? Nope.

I did NOT stand in front of the mirror one morning, mulling how to change my life and deciding "Hey! I'll be a homosexual!". That's NOT how it works. Sexual orientation (or sexual nature) is a innate, biological thing. We're born that way. And that's why I so dislike the term "sexual preference".

Terry
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Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. Is the "gay lifestyle" related to the "homosexual agenda"?
I'm straight, but whenever I hear these phrases, (as well as the variation "choosing a gay lifestyle"), I cringe.

I recently heard a woman in her seventies, a very nice woman who I like very much, utter that last phrase. When I heard her say that, I was dumbstruck! I thought it sounded out of place coming from her, but then I thought about it and figured that it came from ignorance. Perhaps she was never (knowingly) exposed to gay people in her life. Around the same time, I found out that she has three sons, in their late thirties to early forties, none of whom are married. As an older single person myself, I don't stereotype those in my situation as being gay (not that I would, even if I wasn't in the same situation). But I still couldn't help but wonder if perhaps one of her sons might be gay, with her inability to handle it causing that type of comment?
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. I agree, and I really dont like the word "queer".
I might be homosexual, but I'll be damned if I am "queer"!!!

And if anyone says the term 'sexual preference', I immediately assume they are homophobic.
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geniph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I have a lapel button
that says "there is nothing queer about loving another human being." Kind of sums it up for me.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Perfect. Thanks!!! n/t
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. Everyone in this country should have equal rights to everything.
That means gay, straight, black, white, hispanic, women, men, children, old people, and everything else we have here in America. Discrimination is illegal, no matter what. I used to be homophobic, and when my son told me he was gay, it was really a wake up call from God for me. I can't tell you how bad I felt for all the ugly things and the jokes I have told about gay people. I love my son no matter what. He is my son. It made me look at everything else too. Him coming out actually made me a better person. Too bad I didn't get the whole picture before that on my own, huh ?
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Sentath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. But you DID get the picture
and that matters a hell of a lot more than exactly when you got it.
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. Bearfan, I have a terrible, ugly confession to make.
I have judged you because you're a hunter. I even put you on ignore once because I couldn't handle a post I read about your having killed your last deer of the season. Unfortunately I am hyper-, ultra-, and uncontrollably sensitive to the suffering of animals (sometimes to the point of hysteria). Even more unfortunately, I extend that irrationality into judging that hunters, fishermen, trappers, etc., are inhumane assholes.

For this I ask your forgiveness.

Suddenly, learning that you have a gay son has made me change my attitude toward you. I'm ashamed of this, but I can't help it. I'm sorry for judging you. Thanks for helping to open my mind.

(Now: I wonder what the difference is between you and my father? My wonderful sperm donor, who probably spits after hanging up the phone when we talk. :eyes:)
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
10. People don't want to accept me? That's cool. Their choice.
They lose out on meeting a really nice guy. I do what I do because I like to do it. I want the world to be a truly better place. Narrow minded people are entitled to their opinions just like everyone else. The difference? When I die I know the difference that I made was a GOOD one. When they die...well, they just die.
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BR_Parkway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't like some people either
but that doesn't mean that I want to be treated differently or have different rules and laws. Not everyone is going to accept me and that's fine - life would be boring if everyone liked the same things.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. It has nothing what so ever to do with acceptance...
...and everything to do with equality. Two very different things indeed.

Why should heterosexuals have all the rights, while we are deemed second class citizens and left to shit in the gutter?


Sorry, Bertha, I really can't reply with a long thought out post right now. It is coming on to 3am for me, and I had an early morning yesterday, so I'm not thinking so clearly right now.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. It's not a "lifestyle"
It's an orientation, an immutible characteristic. Failure to "accept" this would be the equivalent to deluding yourself that females do not exist.
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. so then, TrogL.... or anyone....
Here's my dilemma: to "us," acceptance means what you said: accept that orientation is an immutable characteristic. To "them," acceptance means they must condone that you have sex w/ a member of your own gender. You do realize, I'm sure, that for them it's all about what we do with our genitals. While for us, it's got nothing to do with that.

Is the problem merely in the definition of "acceptance?" Anyone?
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. that is the problem
we have once again allowed the debate to be defined for us.

the way they use the term "acceptance" implies that they not only tolerate, but practically endorse our gayness, which they are unwilling to do.

then, "tolerate", to them implies that they begrudgingly allow us to exist, even though they hate the very sight of us.

reality should be somewhere in between.

since there are a lot of things about heterosexuality that make me uncomfortable, i can understand the discomfort part. i just can't make the leap to wishing harm to them, or to relegate them to invisibility.

and as others have said, their discomfort is not my problem. what is not acceptable is discrimination.

and on that point, we should meet them in the courtroom, ever time that it is necessary. eventually we will achieve our goal, and all other minorities will be better off because of our efforts.

with a caveat, as long as we do not allow the courts to be stacked/packed with rightwing, fundamentalist, born-again creationists.

that's not asking for much, is it?

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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. I'm not happy with "acceptance" either
...because you'll get statements like "I accept that I have to put with perverts being 'married'".

I prefer understanding.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. there are still people who don't accept inter-racial marriages
there are those who still don't want Jews, black, Latinos, etc to move into their neighborhoods or join their clubs

it's all about equal protection under the law and equal rights

you're always going to have bigots and unless we round them up and start nuclear testing on them, they're gonna be around

what do you do except for live your life and say fuck the rest of them
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
18. Acceptance that I exist and deserve equal rights
not acceptance of anything else..therefore, I voted no.
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piece sine Donating Member (931 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. the only time I'm gay
is when I'm having sex with another guy. When I'm just walking down the street, I'm just another urban person with a decent job, a leftist point of view and a cool art collection. I do not wrap my whole identity around my sexual yearnings. I'm not closeted in any way, at work or play, but being a homosexual is not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of myself or describe myself to others. I answered "NO" to your poll because I truly don't care what anyone else in the world thinks of me or my sexuality. As long my many friends nuture and love me.... I am content.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. kick
:kick:
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geniph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. Their actual opinion is of little interest to me
(btw, I answered this, since I consider myself bi, although I live as a straight person). What I do expect is for everyone to be treated with respect, as a human being, and for all people to have the same rights and responsibilities, without regard to their orientation. Homophobes are free to be homophobic in private, behind closed doors, just as I'm free to be skeptical that anyone can truly be completely, utterly heterosexual. ;-) Passing homophobic laws is NOT okay. Trying to legislate that only heterosexuality is acceptable is NOT okay.

I DO have a problem with homophobes who say they're "okay with people being gay, so long as it's not shoved down my throat," because what they usually mean is they freak out if a GLBT person has a picture of their partner on their desk, brings them to a party, or ever mentions their partner in any context. Now, that's crap - gay people have to hear straight people talking about their spouses ad nauseum, and they should have the same freedom.
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Breezy du Nord Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
25. Somewhat off topic, but
as you're mentioning my post there, what do you think of Americanforums.net? I could see getting some entertainment out of it in the future, if you know what I mean. :eyes:
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. the jury's not in yet, breezygirl.
AAMOF, I haven't even responded to the guy's reply yet. I have a thin skin and have to pace myself or my BP will go through the roof.

But I'm sure glad you raised the subject.

What do you think of that forum? Does it seem even in representation?
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. Without reading any replies yet...
...just to make sure I've got what you're saying (and I think I do):

I do not "accept" the "lifestyle" of snake handlers -- but I fully support the complete and equal civil rights of every snake handler.

In fact, if I learn that a snake handler has been denied any rights or other privileges or benefits solely because he is a snake handler, I will be outraged, I will complain long and loud, I will write letters on his behalf, and I will vote against any politician so bigoted as to be in favor of anti-snake handler legislation.

That doesn't mean I approve of snake handling. In fact, I think snake handling is abnormal behavior. I think snake handlers are, frankly, touched in the head. I don't know any snake handlers, and I really don't care to have any as friends. Their "lifestyle" is strange and unnatural to me, and I don't want to be around their weird ways.

But as long as snake handling doesn't affect my life, I support snake handlers.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Would you mind if I pass that piece along?
My priest would absolutely love it. He's extremely gay friendly. I can also see it as an extremely effective approach in a letter to the editor.

It really is powerful and extremely effective
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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Sure, Rowdy, feel free...
And thanks for the kind words, friend. :)
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Pobeka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
32. I feel sorry for the self-imposed prison of non-acceptors
I was at a concert last Tuesday night, and there was a gay couple in front of me and my family. They weren't groping each other, but they did touch each other fondly a couple of times, holding hands etc. I simply don't care that they are gay. Being somewhat sensitized to the gay/lesbian issue by this insane administration, I thought about that couple a little bit. What I realized that if someone who could not accept other lifestyles was at that concert, in my seat, it could well have ruined the concert (for the non-acceptors) because they probably would have been fuming about the gay couple.

There is so much wonderful stuff in this world (like that concert - Leahy, Canadian band, awesome musicians); the non-acceptors imprison themselves and miss so much.

I hope and pray that human beings will be able to rise above their personal fears and insecurities, and learn that acceptance is not endorsement, that love has no bounds, and yes, we can all live together, happily, even with differences.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
35. I require what I call fair grading
You don't have to like me but I want to be treated the same as everyone else. I pride myself on that as a teacher and expect nothing less from others. Give me my rights and you can hate me to your hearts content.
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Bertha Venation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. here's a bumper sticker for ya


"Give me my rights and you can hate me to your hearts content." GREAT line.
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