William Tecumseh Sherman

[sasquatch]

Yes this is a kickass copycat.
:D

[JVS]

1. Great hero!

[sasquatch]

2. Couldn't agree more

One of Ohio's finest.

[LostInAnomie]

3. One hell of a General...

... and one hell of an author as well.

[sasquatch]

4. You bet, he single handedly beat General Lee

[Mendocino]

20. I could be wrong, but Sherman never opposed Lee

in any Civil War battle.

[sasquatch]

29. But he cut off all his supply lines from Georgia and defeated his southern-

most army. Subsaquently crippling Lee.

[RoyGBiv]

32. Not exactly ...

During the siege of Petersburg, Lee had three lines of supply, none of which Sherman affected directly. The entire campaign, from the Union perspective, was centered on cutting Lee's lines of supply and forcing him to abandon Petersburg and with it Richmond.

The capture of Ft. Fisher closed Wilmington to foreign imports, two of the three railroad lines into the city having already been cut by Grant earlier, and Sheridan's march through the Valley and the culminating battle of Cedar Creek eliminated Lee's best source of supplies.

When Sherman turned north in February of 1865, he figured into the equation in a more dramatic way than he had as far as Lee was concerned, but I don't believe it can be said that he "single-handedly" defeated Lee. Three-quarters of a year had passed during which Grant's overall strategy was put into effect, Sherman being a significant part of that, but hardly the only part.

[NewJeffCT]

5. He didn't take kindly to chickenhawks...

"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell. "

"In our Country... one class of men makes war and leaves another to fight it out. "

[sasquatch]

15. Is that why so many southern politicians are chickenhawks?

Hmm...I wonder if there's a correlation there that I'm not quite realizing.
:think:

[JPZenger]

65. Great Quote

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. Burned the shit out of my ancestral home. Screw him!

;)

[Hosnon]

7. Yeah, he is not received well around here...

Here as in my home state.

[sasquatch]

10. Lemme guess: Georgia

[Hosnon]

43. Haha, I don't think that was very difficult. (nt)

[sasquatch]

9. *snarf*

They say he's still the most hated man in Georgia.

[mzteris]

11. yep.

I still can't see why anyone would think he's a "hero". Rape, pillage, burning, theiving - - -

that's the story I grew up with anyways. Is there something different I don't know about?

[sasquatch]

13. He effectively ended the civil war in a 60 day march thru Georgia up to Gettysburg

Then his troops threatening Richmond until Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattix.

[Mendocino]

22. Sherman's march ended in North Carolina when

Confederate General J.E. Johnson surrendered what was left of his army in the spring of 1865. Grant was in Virginia fighting Lee at Petersburg until Richmond fell. Lee then fled westward before surrendering. Gettysburg was in 1863.

[sasquatch]

23. Oops, which is why you shouldn't on two hours sleep

:boring:

[Tyler Durden]

34. Basically, he was no better nor worse than most in that war.

Success in battle tends to focus a microscope.

Both sides produced GENIUSES in that war, but they were products of their environment. Even Lincoln supported deporting freed slaves back to Africa for a time. Forest's excesses are legendary. Jackson was described as a "blue-eyed killer" who was once quoted as saying "Kill 'em. Kill 'em ALL." The main reason for the existence of Andersonville (AND not quite so brutal prisons in the North) was the refusal of Lee to exchange black troops along with white ones as insisted on by Grant.

And yes, Sheridan later in the Indian Conflicts said "The good only Indian I ever saw was dead." I would only say that I don't think the Native Americans that used to live where you do now don't live down the block. They don't live where I do either. Mea culpa.

There are warts a-plenty to go around in that war.

[Aristus]

39. Did the seccessionists and slavers deserve less?

Prefiguring modern warfare attitudes, Sherman had to destroy the South in order to save it. And for the record, my ancestors fought for the Confederacy.

[Hosnon]

44. I liken it to Dresden. (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

48. Except that not many residents died.

Sherman had them evacuated.

[Hosnon]

50. True...it's not an exact comparison - mainly in that it was incredibly destructive

when a much more humanitarian campaign would have worked just as well. If such a thing were done today, it would certainly be seen as a war crime.

Edit: Content (i.e., my Civil War knowledge is not extensive enough to judge whether there was a "real" reason for the campaign.)

[Aristus]

68. Humanitarianism would have been wasted on the Confederates.

The Confederate Army was the beneficiary of the most generous surrender terms in history. How did the former C.S.A. react? By launching a campaign of terror against mostly defenseless people. A terror campaign that lasted the better part of a century. What could anyone have done differently that would not have led to the horror of lynching and Jim Crow?

[sasquatch]

79. "The Confederate Army was the beneficiary of the most generous surrender terms in history"

I think that was the biggest mistake we made in the war, they should've paid through the nose for what they did.

[Hosnon]

81. (sigh)...

Although perhaps effective, I do not support attacks on civilians in retaliation against politicians and soldiers.

[mzteris]

67. No one "deserves"

to be mistreated.

[rateyes]

80. But, he did spare Monticello, GA on his march to the sea,

because a buddy of his lived there. About the only place you can find homes in GA dating back to the "War of Northern Aggression" as they call it here in GA. I sure am glad the South lost that war.

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. Underachiever - should have burned a hell of a lot more.

Good general, and thank God for him - but he left too much unscathed.

But, gods, what a general!

[sasquatch]

12. I think if he would've did that to Texas we never would've had the problems we had today

I'm just imagining Sherman's ghost popping up and blocking the bullets from killing Kennedy. Then his ghost torments the CIA guys that were on the grassy knoll until they kill themselves.

[Reciprocity]

14. Looks like he is trying to copycat Napoleon.

[sasquatch]

16. Doesn't everybody though?

[NewJeffCT]

37. Napoleon & Hannibal are two of the biggies

I think every general since Cannae has dreamed of pulling off Hannibal's double-envelopment move.

[Ikonoklast]

17. Hated those that fomented for war, but wouldn't serve

Sound familiar?

"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell."

"War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out."

Quotation of William Tecumseh Sherman


And when hounded by the Republican Party to accept the nomination for President,

"If nominated, I will not accept; if drafted, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve."

He had a disdain for politicians his entire life.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. Until I hear these words:

"If nominated, I will not accept; if drafted, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve."

out of Al Gore's mouth, I will continue to hope.

War is hell.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

19. interesting --

* William Tecumseh Sherman died of pneumonia in New York City on February 14, 1891. Sherman and Joseph E. Johnston (Sherman’s old Confederate adversary) had reconciled in the years since the Civil War. Johnston served as an honorary pall bearer at Sherman’s funeral on a rainy and cold day. During the funeral, Johnston removed his hat in the cold rain as other mourners did the same. He was urged to put the hat back on so he would avoid the wet and cold. Johnston said, “If I were in his place and he standing here in mine he would not put on his hat.” Former Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston developed pneumonia from the rain and cold at Sherman’s funeral. Johnston died only a few weeks later.


edited to add another interesting tid-bit:

* When the Civil War broke out, Sherman was the superintendent of a military academy in Louisiana called the Alexandria Military Institute. This military academy would become the foundation of Louisiana State University.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

21. Between his slash and burn battle technique

and his scummy treatment of Native Americans, I'm not all that wild about him.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. me either --

but, then I am not the on that started this thread...Hey Sasquatch!!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

35. oops...I posted in the wrong spot!

Sorry about that!

It was late... :hi:

[TorchTheWitch]

25. I agree totally

I just finished reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. At this moment I feel nothing but utter contempt and disgust for the man.

[Mendocino]

26. Sheridan also.

His quote of "The only good Indian I ever saw was dead" was twisted into "The only good Indian is a dead Indian". Nevertheless he proposed that the destruction of the buffalo was key to the domination of the western tribes. By about 1890 less than a thousand buffalo were left. The frontier was closed.

Edit minor grammar error.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

36. And nobody wants to call it genocide.

:(

[Lethe]

27. this is something I've always wondered

What if the creator of the Ghost Dance was right? What if everything he said was true, it's just he had the wrong period in time. What if today we could do the Ghost Dance? Sometimes, I really think we need to. Most of us in the USA have Native blood in us. (i'm verifiably 1/16 indian, probably more, and my other ancestors were european tribal pagans with similar world-views as the native americans)

[LSdemocrat]

28. Kicked and recommended just for fun.

[sasquatch]

30. Was that recommending any thread yesterday

[IndianaJones]

31. badass mofo. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

33. I have two words for "Sherman Haters" who can't get their perspective in order:

Fort Pillow.
Under the command of another Genius of the war, Nathan Bedford Forest, black troops who had surrendered were slaughtered under calls of "Take the WHITE, Kill the NIGGER."
We could add another three words, followed by three more "First Grand Dragon," "KU KLUX KLAN."

Sherman's standing orders were no looting and no abuse of civilians. That they were disobeyed is no shock.

I regret that some peoples' "Ancestral Homes" were destroyed, but the "swath" Sherman is accused of cutting through Georgia was not very wide, and I NEVER hear regret from these people about Andersonville, and they don't even have the excuse of secrecy the Nazis claimed: the abuses of that place were common knowledge in Georgia.

As to Native Americans: Where are those Native Americans who used to live where YOU DO right now? I'll bet they don't have a home down the block.

Glass houses, Motes and beams and all that.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

38. The fact that I live on land once occupied by Native Americans...

does not mean that I approve of their displacement and genocide. We lived together here once, in harmony with those who did not object to my ancestors' "illegal immigration". Many were wiped out by diseases that Europeans unintentionally carried over to the New World.

Not a "Sherman Hater"...I just don't view him as a big hero. Where was the good in burning an entire city and private residences from Atlanta to Savannah? What sort of strategy was this? To destroy railroads, munitions factories, and other businesses that would aid the Confederate Army made sense. And if they required replenishing of supplies, it's understandable (though not necessarily commendable) that the Union would resort to thievery in order to do so. If Sherman's standing orders were disobeyed, what does that say about the sort of discipline he was able to maintain in his army? Were those who disobeyed orders tried for their defiance?

[Tyler Durden]

46. On the burning of the city of Atlanta.

Atlanta was not burned on Sherman's orders: his soldiers did not fire the city. It is commonly believed now among Civil War Scholars that the fires started with civilian looting, and that the infrastructure to handle the fire was absent due to the evacuation.

Why is Sherman blamed personally for the behavior of some of his soldiers when Forest is never condemned for Fort Pillow? I don't ask Georgians to sing along with "Marching through Georgia," but to view the behavior of an army through the glasses of today is not reasonable.

Everyone has feet of clay when you get right down to it. I do doubt the "We lived together here once, in harmony with those who did not object to my ancestors' 'illegal immigration'." I've yet to see where any European Takeover, I mean, Immigration into areas of Native American residence has worked out well. That may be so for two's and fews, but on the whole, this really wasn't a GOOD THING.

Nobody is blaming you personally for it.

Also, The Army of Northern Virginia STRIPPED farms and towns of goods in their two invasions and left Confederate Script to "pay" for it. Seeing as Northern Gold Coinage was still the standard in the South throughout the war, I can't see that as other than a bad joke.

[RoyGBiv]

42. Perspective ...

I'm not sure what Ft. Pillow or even Andersonville has to do with this. That Camp Douglas was every bit the horror that Andersonville was does not excuse the commanders or policies that led to conditions in either.

Sherman's March is, I think we could agree, overblown as a source of criticism. The atrocities are fewer than often reported and less atrocity than necessary war measure for the most part. Even some of his more egregious acts directly attributable to his decisions, such as cutting off and leaving for dead escaped slaves following the army, are at least explainable in the context of the war. Individual soldiers and groups of soldiers were involved in the worst of the crimes committed, and while Sherman attempted to keep order and prevent much of this from happening, I think it safe to say either his heart just wasn't in it or he wasn't very good at it.

His prosecution of the Indian War is less defensible and indeed is more deserving of sanction by historical judgment. Where I live, again, has little to do with it. Every man, woman, and child living on this continent is where they are today due to the genocide and attempts at genocide of Native American tribes. That I, you, or anyone lives on former tribal land doesn't excuse any of the actions that led to this. Sherman, Sheridan, and other former Union heroes played a huge role in the genocide of the latter half of the 19th century, and they were proud of it. That we are currently benefactors of their policies dictates we at the very least acknowledge that legacy and not call it something it isn't nor praise those who engaged in it.

[Tyler Durden]

47. Never PRAISED it.

I believe you'll see where I noted that prisons on both sides were Hell Holes, but if you check you will see that Andersonville for numbers and treatment far and away wins the prize.

I think if you examine more closely, you will see that I am more taking the view of Claudius from HAMLET "My words fly up, my thoughts remain below: words without thoughts never to Heaven go." More of a universal mea culpa for the Native American Genocide, but I'm not moving off my lot either, so....but never take my explanation as excuse.

As you said: PERSPECTIVE.

[RoyGBiv]

51. Not you ...

Didn't mean to suggest you, specifically, praised it. However, those who do praise Sherman as a hero often forget (or never know about) the "heroic" part he played in the Indian Wars, his problems as a battlefield commander, and his personal views on things like race.

I'm not what could be called a "Sherman hater." (I think an emotion like hate is wasted on historical personalities.) But, I often end up lumped with people who have literally visited his grave site and urinated on it simply because I criticize him, both for his actions during the Civil War and after. He was a superb subordinate officer in charge of an army that did much to aid the Union war effort. But he was also a deeply flawed individual whose status as a war hero often overshadows some of his very real failings.

To add a bit about the march through Georgia and the burning of Atlanta, I have a brief story I like to tell those who hate him for that specifically. Somewhere in Georgia, near Atlanta, is an old plantation with a house on it that was built in the antebellum period. It is a historical site now, and it has a tour guide. At one point in its existence one of the tour guides liked to tell a story about why she hated Sherman, and this is, almost word for word, what she would say.

"This land belonged to some of my ancestors, and when Sherman came through here, he burned it all to the ground." She said this *inside* the house that she had only moment before said was built prior to the Civil War and was all original construction, save for additions to add modern amenities.

I wanted to question this odd bit of news, that the house we were standing in had burned to the ground, but my brain imploded, and I couldn't muster the words. :)

[cobalt1999]

52. I think it is you who is spinning the facts

Sherman ordered his army to "live off the land" (and you say he didn't want looting?), he personally ordered Atlanta evacuated and burned even when the city protested that he was destroying the only homes for many children and old people who had nothing to do with the war. As for the burnings, I guess it was coincidental that Columbia, SC was burned when he captured that too?

He was a total war advocate and purposely destroyed civilian property or confiscated it. There are numerous accounts of the wagon loads of looted stuff that rolled back from his army, many of which were earmarked as his.

Support a war criminal if you want, but pointing out other war criminals doesn't absolve him and is a dumb tactic to try and use. What he did was as bad as our bombing of Dresden in WWII.

[Tyler Durden]

53. I do not absolve him.

I lump him with the others of that time: Lee, Jackson, Forest, McClellan who through arrogance, stupidity or piety killed unnecessarily.

The Civil War was a Blood Bath, and to couch any war in a view other than that of Von Clauswicz us kidding yourself.

The tactic of "Living off the land" was to cut the supply line, and others like Lee did the same thing in Maryland and Pennsylvania.

And your "Numerous accounts" are not fact supported. Sherman was no angel, but neither then was or is ANY General.

[cobalt1999]

55. The difference is...

while many generals caused unnecessary deaths while fighting other armies, his strategy was to TARGET civilians and their property. Big difference between causing deaths by stupidity while targeting an opposing army, and his idea of purposely unleasing his army on civilians ("hard war" he called it).

The numerous accounts are fact supported as is the wealth he had attained by the end of the war, unless that is Union army paid REALLY, REALLY well. He certainly didn't have any wealth when he started the war being a failed bank president and a failed lawyer.

Revere him if you want, but he was worse than the generals of his time.

[Tyler Durden]

56. Have it as you will. Georgia picked her side.

Virtually untouched until that time, they were the breadbasket of the South. AAAhhh, have it as you will. Not worth arguing about: only a diversion from feeling rotten About OMC and Stacey anyway.

[cobalt1999]

58. Ahhh, so they were just asking for the raping.

Interesting viewpoint. Not one I'll ever agree with.

You're right, he's not worth arguing about.

[Tyler Durden]

59. This is what I get for unhiding this stupid thread.

This diversion is not worth the effort. Play with yourself. There's enough conflict and pain right now, bemoaning this makes no more sense to me. back to hide, and may I resist the temptation.

[Danger Mouse]

85. war is hell.

sherman's actions don't compare to dresden, hiroshima, or nagasaki.
lot more innocent people slaughtered there.
not saying sherman was doing good things, but honestly, all of those civil war generals were murderous scumbags. it was a hellish, bloody war.

[Patiod]

40. We have the picture on our fridge

Along with one of Winfield Scott Hancock.

[AllegroRondo]

41. I've visited his grave

He's buried in Calvary Cemetary in St Louis. So is Dred Scott.

[kwassa]

45. He ended the Civil War more quickly

and for that he is to be praised.

[trof]

49. Ah, those nostalgic days of "scorched earth".

Sherman's March to the Sea followed his successful Atlanta Campaign of May to September 1864. He and U.S. Army commander Lt. Gen. Ulysses S. Grant believed that the Civil War would end only if the Confederacy's strategic, economic, and psychological capacity for warfare were decisively broken. Sherman therefore applied the principles of scorched earth, ordering his troops to burn crops, kill livestock, consume supplies, and destroy civilian infrastructure along their path.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman's_March_to_the_Sea

[Tyler Durden]

54. And it worked, didn't it?

In a war where nobody but Americans die, sort of a GOOD THING to get it the hell over with. Lee and the Confederacy at that point were doing just what the Japanese were doing in 1945: holding out for better terms. That makes them just as culpable.

EVERYONE has feet of clay.

[trof]

70. Yes, and we're all very greatful.

really

[BrotherBuzz]

57. Sherman gave bowties a bad name

[sasquatch]

I've got to try that once in my life before I die

:D

[BrotherBuzz]

62. In the name of science and history, I'll join you in that venture. Hoot!

I did it once with a length of one inch bar stock - by accident

I had a country cabinet shop and the custom back in those days was to get burn permit to depose of all the all our junk scraps that weren't suitable for the fireplace. Somehow, a choice piece of cold rolled steel ended up buried in the pile, and was discovered only after the fire was roaring. The middle of the bar was a bright orange, almost yellow. We played with it for a bit, bending it, and what not, but no trees were hurt in out folly.

I tried to find the famous photo showing a couple of rails warped around a tree, but Google™ failed me. I want to believe Mathew Brady was the photographer.

[sasquatch]

60. I've got to try that once in my life before I die

:D

[achtung_circus]

66. Recreation posted here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Drsgs6-3Qlg

[sasquatch]

74. Awesome!

B-)

[Crabby Appleton]

61. Last time I went through Atlanta I felt like burning the place down too

[sasquatch]

63. A lot of people feel that way

[JPZenger]

64. Go to Atlanta and ask for the statue of General Sherman

When I was in college, we sent our pledges to Atlanta and told them to ask directions to the big statue of General Sherman.

[sasquatch]

78. I hoped they went to a black neighborhood first

They might get heaped with praise and avoid the ass beatings from the white crackers.

[RubyDuby in GA]

69. RAT. BASTARD.

I'd call him a pigfucker, but I don't want to insult pigs or those who fuck them.

[sasquatch]

75. Ahh, is someone still upset about that little war over 142 years ago

BTW, I'm planning on getting him tatood on my left shoulder.
:D

[eppur_se_muova]

71. “It is only those who have neither fired a shot ...

“It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.”

"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.”

“Every attempt to make war easy and safe will result in humiliation and disaster”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/it_is_only_those_who_have_neither_fired_a_shot/15256.html

[martymar64]

72. I still think we shoul've let the South go

With an agricultural society based on slavery, they wouldn't have gotten very far without the industrial might of the north and they would have sapped what meager resources they had putting down endless slave rebellions. They'd be a third world country like Mexico by now and we'd have illegals coming from Alabama instead of Sinaloa.

[sasquatch]

76. "we'd have illegals coming from Alabama instead of Sinaloa."

That'd count down on the language barrier I bet.

[The Straight Story]

73. I have been to his childhood home in Lancaster, Ohio

Pretty cool actually :)

[sasquatch]

77. I bet it is

:)
Did you see RubyDuby in GA's post.
:rofl:

[PassingFair]

82. Don't forget his brother, John!

Author of the Sherman Anti-Trust Acts and
nicknamed "The Ohio Icicle".




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sherman_%28politician%29

[sasquatch]

83. Damn, the whole damn Sherman family were movers and shakers

:wow:

[sasquatch]

84. Can't let this thread die

:D