Harvard Student Given Extra Exam Time To Pump Breast Milk

[LynneSin]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/09/27/harvard-student-given-ext_n_66097.html

Harvard Student Given Extra Exam Time To Pump Breast Milk
NY Times | ELIZABETH OLSON | September 27, 2007 09:13 AM

A Harvard student must be given extra break time during a medical licensing exam to pump breast milk, a Massachusetts appeals court judge ruled yesterday.

The student, Sophie C. Currier, 33, of Brookline, Mass., had sued the National Board of Medical Examiners after it denied her request for more than the standard 45 minutes of allotted breaks during the nine-hour exam, which she will take over two days.


+++++++++++++++++++++

This should be good for a day or two worth of flame wars

[johnnie]

1. They were talking about this on my local news this morning

I think it's fine but then I heard that she has already been given special treatment for other things.

Found this:

"Ms. Currier has already received some accommodation from the board for dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. She can take the test over two days instead of one, for example."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/education/27exam.html


So she gets two days instead of one and extra time for her breaks. LOL. She may as well just take the test home and turn it in when it is convenient for her.

[Richard Steele]

2. Yup. The breast-milk issue is the LEAST of the problems I have with this.

Never mind that other nursing Moms have managed to
express milk WITHOUT having the rules bent for them.
That's just a distraction, IMHO

No, I'm MUCH more concerned that they're bending
the rules simply because SHE CAN'T PASS THE TEST.

[johnnie]

3. The two female news anchors this morning were talking about it

The are both new mothers who had breastfed their babies, they said that the alloted time (the break periods) seemed like more than enough time to take care of their children. I have never breastfed so i can't tell ya, but they seemed to think she didn't need the extra time. :shrug:

And yeah, that's what I thought...this woman just can't pass the test I figure.

[Richard Steele]

36. Other nursing mothers have expressed milk during this test WITHOUT extra time.

This woman already failed the test once. AFAIC, that's
the real reason she's demanding to break all the rules.

[mzteris]

14. "special treatment"??????

It's called accommodation for a learning disorder.

That is NOT "special treatment"!

Would having the test in braille for a blind person be "special treatment"?

Would having someone else write out the answers for a person with no hands be "special treatment"?

Would not allowing Stephen Hawking to use his voicebox be "special treatment"?


Maybe no one should be allowed to WEAR GLASSES during the exam because that could be considered "SPECIAL TREATMENT!"

[Goblinmonger]

15. I understand what you are saying

but which doctor do you want to go to, the one that can do it with or without the special allotments? Should her license say that it took her twice as long to do the same thing? My wife is an attorney and had classmates with similar accomodations made for law school exams and the bar. In professions where billing by time is very common, isn't it something you might like to know that your particular professional was not held to the same time constraints as other options that might be available to you. This is markedly different than allowing special considerations for students with disabilities in high school or below.

on edit: my wife took the bar exam at during the time when she was breastfeeding our daughter. Everything went fine with the normal time limits. My daughter was a little pissed off, but my wife was able to make it through.

[mzteris]

27. Needing extra time to take a test

due to LD's doesn't indicate a person is LESS CAPABLE at their job than the next person.

In point of fact, many people with LD's actually have high IQ's.

The "testing" format isn't necessarily "user-friendly" for everyone, but it doesn't mean they aren't a crackerjack doc. I'll take the person who doesn't necessarily have to think inside the little colored-in dot very well, thanks.

[johnnie]

16. Slow down hot rod

We are talking about a medical license here, not a license to sell Tupperware. It's fine by me if you feel all warm and squishy putting your life into the hands of someone who needed help to get their medical license because they had learning disorders and didn't quite understand medicine, but I am a little hesitant.

I'm sorry, I draw the line at certain things like this. I doubt I would ever get into a cab driven by a blind man so I can feel all warm and fuzzy.

[mzteris]

28. Give me a freaking break!

LD's doesn't mean someone isn't as smarter - or even SMARTER THAN - the person who could "take the test" in record time.

:puke:

Just means THEY're "good test takers" and not necessarily will be a GOOD DOCTOR.

[johnnie]

32. Ok

Good for her then.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

38. Maybe her medical license could have an asterisk? nt

[MrCoffee]

20. those would all be examples of special treatment

any derivation from the established test rules would, by definition, be special treatment. you're the one putting it in quotes and imbuing it with added meaning.

[mzteris]

29. so being allowed to wear glasses is considered special treatment, now?

really.

wow. just wow.

[Dr. Strange]

31. It would if the test rules specifically prohibited it.

For example, you can't get into the Top Gun flight school (I believe) if you don't have 20-20 vision without glasses. That's part of the rules. If someone were to get in, despite needing glasses, it would be "special treatment."

[Richard Steele]

37. For positions that require perfect vision, yes, it would be "special treatment".

And the special treatment in this case goes well
beyond "wearing glasses". That's a silly comparison.

[mzteris]

40. accommodations are not "special treatment"

that's total bs.

[Richard Steele]

42. "Accommodations" are not all the same. They can be reasonable or unreasonable.

Simply on the face of it, there's no way to deny that
this woman demanded and is being given "special treatment".
The test conditions are being altered for her in ways that
they have never been altered for anyone else.
It doesn't get much more "special" than that.

The question is: is that special treatment REASONABLE?

And frankly, I don't find it at all "reasonable" to give
a Medical License to someone who has attempted and failed
to demonstrate the minimum level of competency that is
required of all other MDs.

The very PURPOSE of that test is to show whether those
who take it can be entrusted with a Medical License.
By failing it, she has shown that she cannot be.

The particular REASON/s she failed are totally irrelevant.
And I will never find ANY justification for awarding an MD
to any UNQUALIFIED person to be "reasonable".


Edditted fer spellin.

[mzteris]

44. where does it say she FAILED?

If it was a man who had to empty a colostomy bag and that took longer than the "usual alloted time" - would you still think he was "too stupid to be a doctor"?

[Richard Steele]

46. Spare me your misplaced accusations of misogyny and actually READ UP on this story, please.

She already took the test once, under the SAME conditions
as everyone else, and she FAILED it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/26/national/main3302825.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3302825

SNIP:"She took the exam in April when she was 8½ months pregnant,
but failed by a few points. She had planned to take the test again
earlier this week, but put it off after Norfolk Superior Court Judge
Patrick Brady ruled against her last week."


If you actually read the story, you'll note that this latest
"extra time" is just the tip of the iceberg as far as all
the special treatment she's been offered. And I don't give a
rat's ass about her gender: ANYONE who needs that much extra help
to pass that test shouldn't be a Doctor.

[mzteris]

48. it wasn't mentioned in other stories

and geez - she missed it by a couple of points while 8.5 months pregnant!

Many people "fail" the test the first time, btw. Did you know that? I wonder if your doc took it more than once? Would you know? Would you care?



I find nothing "extra special" about the accommodations being allowed her.

And I honestly believe that if this issue were any other medical condition - besides BREASTFEEDING - we wouldn't even be having this converstation!

[Richard Steele]

52. Yeah, don't sweat it. Can't expect everyone to read EXACTLY all the same things I do, right?

But my point is- I don't CARE about the breastfeeding.

I'm sure you're correct in thinking that some people do-
Lord knows that's a surefire flamefest subject around here.
But I don't.

I care about giving a Medical License to someone who can't
pass the standard test for that license. THAT'S what I care
about.

Just as a personal note, I was discussing this subject with
my Sweetie last night, and she made me aware that I actually
KNOW an MD who was diagnosed with dyslexia issues at an early age,
and has taken special pains to deal with them all her life.

That tidbit of new info doesn't make me doubt her medical ability,
because I know for a fact that she passed all her Medical Boards
on the first try without any special accommodations. Those tests
provide our ASSURANCE that a person is qualified to be a doctor,
and she passed them fairly. That's all I care about.

[Pithlet]

45. They aren't totally irrelevant.

I don't know enough about this specific case to judge her situation, but making accommodations for people with specific disabilities who would otherwise fail the test is completely reasonable. There are certain disabilities that don't affect the way a person does a job, but can affect how they perform on the test. In other words, they aren't failing the test because they're incompetent and don't know the material. They're failing because of a specific disability that prevents them from testing under normal conditions. They aren't stupid, and they aren't any less capable because of those disabilities. Therefore, it is relevant as to whether or not she had one of those disabilities.

[Richard Steele]

47. Well, I happen to think the disabilities she has are very RELEVANT to the career she desires.

She's been given special treatment on the grounds that
she has Dyslexia and ADD. If those conditions are severe
enough that they prevent her from passing her Medical Boards,
then they're severe enough to negatively impact her actual
practice of medicine.

And I say they are IRRELEVANT, because I don't want ANY doctor
who couldn't pass the Boards to ever treat me or anyone I know.
I really don't care WHY they couldn't pass.

[Pithlet]

51. Well, fortunately, not everyone feels that way.

Because it isn't true that people with ADD and dyslexia are incapable of being good doctors. Anyone who thinks so isn't fully knowledgeable about either condition. Odds are you've probably been treated at some point by someone who has either.

And it isn't true that they can't pass. They pass the test. They just receive accommodations to take the test due to their disabilities. It's still the same test everyone else has to take. If they still can't pass, then they don't get to be doctors.

ETA that I'm still not making a judgment about the woman in the OP. I don't think there's enough information to really know either way. But, generally speaking, I'm for giving accommodations to those who genuinely need it, and that just because a disability isn't visible on the outside doesn't make it any less worthy of consideration.

[Richard Steele]

53. I didn't say ALL people with those issues are incapable of being doctors.

Please see my post #52 below for a relevant bit of personal info.

I'm saying that people who can't pass the Medical Boards
shouldn't be doctors. That's kinda the POINT of having
them in the first place. Diseases and injuries aren't going
to provide any 'special accommodations' or 'extra time'
to doctors with disabilities.

Being a Doctor is a DIFFICULT job; that difficult test is there
SPECIFICALLY to weed out those who aren't capable of doing that job.

As the counsel for the National Board of Medical Examiners said:
"The board of medicine has to be able to rely on the results
of these tests in determining whether someone is qualified
to be a physician," Savage said. "If the tests aren't fair
and comparable, the boards don't have the information they need
to only license doctors who are properly trained."

[Pithlet]

54. The point is, they CAN pass.

You keep saying they can't. They can. Just because they're given accommodation doesn't mean they aren't being held to the same standard. I'm saying the fact that someone needed that accommodation doesn't mean they're incapable of the job. Your response was that it was irrelevant. That sounds to me like you think those accommodations shouldn't be made. My point is if those accommodations aren't made, people who are otherwise fully capable of being a doctor are barred from the profession.

[Richard Steele]

56. I didn't say "they" can't, I said this particular individual can't.

As I mentioned, I personally know a Doctor who did.

And being "given accommodation" DOES mean they aren't
being held to the same standard. That's EXACTLY what
it means- the standards have been CHANGED for them.

And if a person is FULLY capable of being a Doctor,
then they are fully capable of passing the Boards
under the same conditions as every other Doctor.
If they can't, then they aren't. That's the POINT
of the Boards.

No, I don't think any accommodations should be made.
Diseases and injuries aren't going to make any accommodations,
so people shouldn't have to entrust their lives and their health
to doctors who require "accommodating".

[mzteris]

49. Hear! Hear!

Exactly.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. So you DO support bombing Iran? I knew it.

:bounce:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. i feel like gd did this already

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. i feel like gd did this already

[Gormy Cuss]

12. Stop repeating yourself.

Stop repeating yourself.

GD did do this already yesterday, and a fine GD thread it was.:(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

13. i feel like i have to say things twice to get anyone to notice.

[LaraMN]

7. Oh puh-leeze!

I could totally pump and test at the same time, when I was breastfeeding.
Amateurs.

:rofl:

[LynneSin]

8. You realize you'll have DUers demanding a test to see if what you say is true

n/t

[LaraMN]

9. I don't have a pump anymore.

Or boobs.

Sometimes I wish I could get some of that drug that artificially induces breast milk production, so my knockers would re-inflate.

It would be high-maintenance, but I could alter the size at will to optimally fit blouses.

AND I could squirt people. That ruled.

[sasquatch]

19. "AND I could squirt people."

*faints with a smile on his face*

[Connonym]

43. I only did that once but the look on his face was priceless

oh behold the power of the female breast! HA!

[Maine-ah]

41. bwahhaahaaahaa

:rofl:

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. Jesus - they're letting women be doctors now? What is this, a special program?

:wow:





Just kidding, of course. Praise to the test people for letting her do this, even though it did take a lawsuit.

[kay1864]

11. Heh. Reminds me of Dr. Joyce Brothers

She was admonished by a department head for having the temerity to apply for a PhD program. She was taking a spot that a man could occupy, since she was just going to get married and have babies and drop out of the program anyway.

How about them 1950's?

[Deja Q]

17. Pump it for who, Land O' Lakes?

:hide:

[Taverner]

18. Meh - I hope she doesn't spill milk on the scan tron

Milk can gunk up the machine :)

[formerrepuke]

21. Do they have to be the student's own breasts?? They need to clarify....

[Dr. Strange]

33. THEY need to clarify?

I think YOU need to clarify!

:rofl:

[meegbear]

22. Tits 1, 'The Man' 0

:woohoo:

[sasquatch]

23. LOL!!

:rofl:

[Bunny]

25. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

:rofl:

[Dr. Strange]

24. As usual, GD is all over it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1912605

Lounge Lizards: We didn't start the fire!

[sasquatch]

26. Those guys a beyond the breaking point

:wow:

[Hugin]

30. Wow! I bet she's using the 'Bailey Medical Nurture III' unit...

Those are sweeeet! Good action.

The 'Avent Isis iQ Uno' is much cheaper, but, it's difficult to load. However, if I were in her situation I'd
pull out an 'Ameda Purely Yours' with the optional Backpack and four spare magazines! Wooo. It'll pull your GPA
out of almost any hotspot.

[KamaAina]

34. Is there an Olive Garden up there?

:hide:

[sasquatch]

35. Well there better be, she needs someplace to brastfeed

:D

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

39. Yes and they are wipping it out all over

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6974682&mesg_id=6974682

[Tyler Durden]

50. Once she passes..how does that work in INTERNSHIP and RESIDENCY?

I don't know that much about the private sector, but as a ER/ICU corpsman in the Navy I worked patients for 12 hours without a food break and just 1 minute to pee.

I don't see many hospitals worrying about the good Doctor's need to "express" or feed. Pregnant or nursing personnel at our facility flew DESKS, not Patient Care.

[Deep13]

55. Damn! Next thing you know, they'll want comfortable shoes!

Nothing is sacred anymore. :evilgrin: