Marriage and kids automatically make most people lame shells of themselves?

[LostInAnomie]

Poll question: Marriage and kids automatically make most people lame shells of themselves?

True in my opinion, but I would like to hear what other DUers, particularly married DUers think.

Poll result (102 votes)
True	(42 votes, 41%)	Vote
False	(56 votes, 55%)	Vote
Other	(4 votes, 4%)	Vote

[dropkickpa]

1. I wouldn't say that

Their focus is shifted from "Me, me, me! Do, do, do!". When you only have yourself to worry about/deal with, you are more able to focus a large amount of your energies outward. Once you have children (I'm not married, so I can't speak for them), you become more focused in the home, on other people and their needs. Your perspective shifts. I can't/don't want to just run out and go drinking at the drop of a hat. A lot of the oh-so-necessary things I thought made me ME and were SOO important to me were just fripperies and passing amusements. I am more myself and centered than I ever was prior to getting knocked up.

I found that, with the friends that stuck around, I have a much deeper and more fulfilling friendship with. The ones who left were a bit threatened by drop in their status (such as "She won't drop everything and talk to me for hours after my break-up because her damn kid needs fed" or "She won't come out when we call her at 11pm anymore"). The "my friends are everything to me" phase was past. One of my best friend's even told me that she was a bit jealous, because she didn't have as much of my attention as she used to. My life went from "friends first" to "family first". Before I had a kid, I felt the same way when a good friend had a kid or got married. Seeing it from both sides was a real eye-opener.

[hfojvt]

3. dang, it sounds like friends are just about as demanding as kids

good thing maybe that I have neither. Even my dogs are starting to annoy me now. I used to have the coolest dogs. Now it seems like I have a couple of loud-mouthed idiots.

[VLC]

9. Not all single people are just focused on themselves.

And they can focus on other people's needs.

Just wanted to make sure that's clear. The way you worded your post made it sound that way.

[dropkickpa]

21. Not what I meant

and I am single, with a kid.

What I meant is that the focus of people with kids/married is more inside the home rather than on friends/people outside the home. I thought my second paragraph made that pretty clear.

[Darth_Kitten]

18. Uh, single people worry more than just themselves......

just because people have kids doesn't make them self-sacrificing saints who put their children's lives ahead of them. Single people have family and family responsibilities as well. THEY are the ones expected to be there for elderly parents etc, because the kids with their own kids are always so busy. (it's funny because when you do see them, they don't seem too interested in their own kids)

Sometimes people with kids use their status of parents to get out of a lot of situations. For instance, at work, people whose kids are in their late teens and twenties taking family sick leave because their precious darling has a little cold. Guess who gets stuck with their work?

Those self-contained single people.

[VLC]

22. Not to mention

all the time you can't take any vacation days at all because other people are on maternity leave foreeeeeeever.

[Maine-ah]

29. yep, because a woman should

go to the hospital, pop out the kid and be back to work the next day.

Then you have people who complain that parents don't spend enough time with their kids and raise them properly. WTF.

If you can't get vacation days because some one is out on maternity leave, maybe that is actually a staffing problem within your company...hmmmm...ya think?

[dropkickpa]

35. Not to mention

The vast majority of maternity leave in the US is unpaid, and when a woman does get money, it's usually all of her unused sick and vacation days which she is forced to take, which creates a pickle when she gets back to work (babies get sick? that's unpossible!!). In a 2004 Harvard study, out of 168 countries studied, 163 had some form of paid maternity leave. The US wasn't one of them.

[Maine-ah]

44. nope. I had no maternity leave.

NOTHING! I worked for the company for 7 years. My husband for 9. There was only one other employee.

[dropkickpa]

46. Ahh

FMLA doesn't cover companies that have less than 50 employees each working day for 20 consecutive work weeks.

[Maine-ah]

53. exactly.

[Darth_Kitten]

40. but STILL, the person is affected by it?

the staffing problem?

Nobody is saying that mothers shouldn't get maternity leave, of course they can, but you have to admit it DOES affect others, albeit in non-serious ways.

[Maine-ah]

42. point is, it's not her fault

it's the company's fault. The poster is making it the woman's fault that the company doesn't know how to be prepared for situations like this.

[VLC]

43. Oh grow up, that's not what I said.

I was just pointing out another effect. Of course I don't want mothers to pop them out and go right back to work. But stop pretending this doesn't affect single people.

Staffing problem or not. But how many of us could be replaced effectively by a temp?

[Maine-ah]

45. um, read your post a little more carefully.

that is exactly what you said, imho. And again, it's the company's fault. You're still blaming the individual, when clearly it's the company's responsiblity to cover her position.

"grow up"

um, yeah, so when someone calls you on your bs you throw insults? NICE....

[VLC]

49. "Not to mention" says I think women should get no maternity leave?

You must have a different dictionary.

Next month I start the next 8-week period this year when I can't take a day off because of someone else's maternity leave.

BS to you, my reality.

You feel the need to call it blame. I'm just saying it's my reality. These other women are on maternity leave (cause); I can't take a day off (effect).

Pretty simple.

You were the one who started the eye-rolling and sarcasm.

[Maine-ah]

52. you need to redirect your anger back at your management.

it's still not the woman's fault no matter which way you look at it.

[VLC]

54. I'm not angry. Never said I was.

Merely stated that it's an effect of maternity leave.

[dropkickpa]

24. Ahhh

I see. You are deliberately misinterpreting what I wrote. I ain't no fucking saint, and no one I know is. I am saying when you have kids your focus shifts a bit away from your friends, which was pretty darn clear in my post, IMO. I said nothing about work, and neither did the OP. I focused on the changes in friendship when a peron has a kid.

I get to hear shit like "I wish *I* could call off to stay home with a sick kid" all the time. Yeah, because cleaning up puke/vomit/snot/diarrhea is MY ideal way to spend what would otherwise have been a productive day. I even got shit from one asshole coworker when I called off once to take my kid to the ER because she had pneumonia.

And I cover for a LOT of peoples shit. I rarely ever take a sick day (maybe 1 day a year, though I did selfishly take a whole week 4 years ago when I was diagnosed with cancer, bitch that I am). I'd like to have those days available for the eventuality of something happening to my kid.

But single childless people are the real workers, us parents (especially single mothers) are just lazy and take a day off at the drop of a hat for a sniffle. We don't care for anyone but our precious spawn.

[Darth_Kitten]

27. It seems you are misinterpreting our posts..........

I was raised (my early years anyways) by a single parent so I know all about how hard they work.
Maybe just read our posts again.

Some people think that because you don't have kids, your life is simple and carefree. We got YOUR point so please don't go off on some "I'm just so misunderstood" angle. I hardly think anybody is slamming you as being lazy or whatever. We are just speaking from OUR point of view.

Single people or those without kids are just sick and tired of being seen as having no responsibility. And yeah, maybe some single people ARE tired of picking up the slack because SOME parents' "partners" won't help raise their own kids. It happens a lot more than people realize.

[dropkickpa]

28. The "I'm so misunderstood angle"

Sometimes people with kids use their status of parents to get out of a lot of situations. For instance, at work, people whose kids are in their late teens and twenties taking family sick leave because their precious darling has a little cold. Guess who gets stuck with their work?

Those self-contained single people.

I never said single peoples lives were simple and carefree, I said they have a different focus in their lives.

What do you mean by this?

And yeah, maybe some single people ARE tired of picking up the slack because SOME parents' "partners" won't help raise their own kids.

[Darth_Kitten]

39. What I mean is.........

seeing parents at work always called home because their ex or even their current spouse not being able to look after their own kids. Why should others have to pick up the slack all the time because Susie's hubby is a lazy louse?

Yes, this may be going off topic, but it's one of the things "some" parents don't think about. Their parenting choices do affect other people.

I've just seen this happen so many times. It's not a knock on the parents doing THEIR jobs, it's a knock on those who don't share in the responsibility.

[dropkickpa]

41. Wasn't sure

Thanks for clarifying.

[skygazer]

76. These are such silly arguments

I could bring up the single people who call in sick every single Saturday because they were out drinking the night before - and it does happen in my workplace regularly, leaving those of us who can't afford to do that (because we have families and responsibilities) picking up their slack.

I don't understand why people insist on always turning these things into "singles" against "marrieds" - it's people who behave responsibly and people who don't. It doesn't matter what their relationship status is.

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. Whew - lots of fallacies in that one!

Had you replaced your constant use of "you" with "me", it would ring more true, since you would be truly speaking from your own experience.

But now that you've utterly universalized the experience of having children, I can only call you wrong.

The second half of your first paragraph and your second paragraph are perfect - you speak only from your own experience, and don't universalize it at all in those two sections. Wonderful!

[dropkickpa]

38. Thank you

For the copy-editing advice.

[Ellen Forradalom]

47. "Single" is equivalent to "frivolous"?

And having children always makes you deeper and more responsive to others?

It may have worked out that way in your case, but I don't think that logic applies generally. I am a recently-separated mother of a young child, and don't live my single life that way. Mostly I spend time with my dog and/or my son, or reading, or working.

[dropkickpa]

51. Jeebus chreest

I wasn't talking about single parents. I'm single, have been for the entirety of my kids life, never married, never want to be. I was referring to people who are single with no children (sorry, you've spawned, you aren't in that).

And no, obviously, having children doesn't make you deeper or more responsive to others, and I never said that. I said that people tend to focus more inward on their familiy after they have kids rather than outward towards their friends. I said I can't speak for married people as I never have been. You fit exactly what I was talking about, you say you stay home with your kid and dog, *focusing inward on your family*.

[u4ic]

2. Priorities change

[bridgit]

4. pft, giggerish...

[Starbucks Anarchist]

5. And... go!

[bicentennial_baby]

6. I dunno, I'm newly married, and

we are both completely ourselves and very comfortable being so. We weren't raging singles before this, so it may be different. But we feel that our marriage, if anything, has enriched us and made our lives much more delightful.

[javadu]

7. Marriage and children changed my life dramatically ---

for the better.

Things i miss are::

drinking fine wine

going to the theatre

going to the jazz club

quiet mornings or afternoons

reading novels on lazy weekend days

lazy weekend days

having an organized and systematic path through each week

clean clothes



Things I gain are::

children noisily playing

children disrupting all of my plans and life systems

messiness

disorganization

lack of sleep

more messiness


and I would not change anything!

[WildEyedLiberal]

8. Marriage doesn't really affect most people I know

If they were cool before, they seem cool after.

Kids, OTOH... it's like the individual disappears, to forever be known henceforth as "mommy" for the rest of her life. It's honestly really sad to me.

Please don't flame me, parents, I'm not saying this happens to everyone, and honestly, there ARE some people in life who really were born to be nurturing parents (fortunately for me my mother is one of them)... but I've seen way too many beautiful individual people disappear into a void of Dora the Explorer, Happy Meals, and other suffocating trappings of parenthood. That kind of life honestly depresses the hell out of me and reminds me why I don't ever want to have kids.

[dropkickpa]

26. Not flaming

But there is a very strong biological reason for this phenomenon. Humans at birth are completely helpless, and there is still a LOT of growing to be done to reach even a tiny bit of self-sufficiency (my kid learning to wipe her own ass was a banner day in the dropkick house!!). Guinea pigs are almost totally self sufficient at birth. Horses and other large prey species are up and walking in minutes. Many primate species are equally helpless, but there is a whole group of adults and adolescents always there to help, where humans are often all on their lonesome (even in 2 parent households there is not a constant presence of the other adult).

Humans take a bit longer, so there is a big biological push to solely focus on getting that soft, squealing, fragile thing up and moving and not dead, which, in this day and age, translates to Dora and the Wiggles. It usually takes 2-3 years before, on a very base animal level, we feel safe enough to take our eyes off that kid for even a second, and it's really damn hard to break the habit of constant attention and surveillance. Give it time, your friends will "come back". They are still beautiful vibrant people, but there's been a pretty damn huge change in their lives.

Many of my friends didn't wait, which I mourn, but ce la vie, I can't change that, I can only move on with my life and make new friends. Besides which, in retrospect I honestly don't think those that are gone from my life were really all that good a friends, anyhow. I have several single, child-free friends who I was friends with prior to having a kid that are still friends, and our relationships are better than they ever were bc (before child).

[WildEyedLiberal]

66. Thanks for sharing your perspective - really interesting post

In my post I was speaking of a relative I am pretty close with who is now the mom of 6 yr old and 4 yr old daughters. She's such a smart, fun person, but it seems like, even when we go do stuff and she leaves the kids with a babysitter, they're still there anyway. Her whole life has become pretty much centered around being "mommy" and that's it. She hasn't worked since before the first one was born, and I don't know when she plans on going back, or if she does.

Now I certainly respect the decision to be a stay at home mom, and her kids are really nice, good kids, and the only reason the job thing is even a sort of issue is because I know she wants to do things, but it seems like the dreary reality of her life with toddlers has taken that away from her. She's always saying how she wants to travel, go to Chicago for a weekend, etc, but when I say "hey, we should do that!", she's always saying "well, I just don't have the money" (hence why I think it'd be nice for her to go back to work, so she can actually do things SHE wants to do) or "I just don't want to be away from my kids that long." Her husband works, but his job doesn't really pay that well so of course she never gets money to spend on stuff she wants, because she's dependent on him for anything. It just breaks my heart that she seems to have put all her dreams on permanent standby because she has kids now.

I know spending lots of hands on time with kids that young is important and I respect her choice but I can't help but feel sad that her young adulthood is passing her by and she'll never have done all the wonderful and fun things she wanted to because she was shackled to her kids.

[dropkickpa]

68. At 4 and 6 years old

I think it's more of a habit thing. Was she unhappy/dissatisfied in her work prior to having kids? If so, maybe she gets more fulfillment from being a parent amd she's reluctant to change that. Also, daycare is hella expensive, so she may be waiting for both of them to be in school full-time before venturing back into the out-of-home working world. I dunno, I'm definitely *not* a stay-at-home mom, so I'm just guessing at the reasons.

[WildEyedLiberal]

74. Definitely waiting until they're both in school full time

Which is true as of today, the youngest's first day of kindergarten (she's REALLY young for her grade and will turn 5 in a week). She also didn't have a fulfilling career by any means - just a secretarial job that brought a paycheck.

I hope now that the youngest is making the transition to school that she'll get back to work soon so she can have more money to do some of the things she wants to do. I know she's liked staying home with her kids, but she's also missing out on a lot of other stuff. She has a college degree, but married a guy from her high school and lives in my small hometown, where there are NO opportunities for people with education whatsoever, and I think she's too attached to living there to move anywhere with better career opportunities. But at least the secretarial job gave her some spending cash so she could go travel and do things on her own, which she hasn't really done in a long time.

[VLC]

48. What I've seen while involved in activist and charity groups

Is that as soon as someone gets married, their participation wanes. Then they have kids and insist they can still be active, and you never see them again.

[tigereye]

56. some of us had to wait a bit until the kid/s can come with us

to the campaign office, march, etc.


It is possible to be partnered, have kids, have a life, and still be political. It just takes some juggling.




I for one think that kids are a lot of work, but very enriching, and just another phase of life.

[VLC]

65. For all I know,

they're doing activism from home - writing letters, making phone calls, etc.

And yeah, some events are hard to take kids to, especially small ones. Hopefully they're raising the next generation of activists!

[idgiehkt]

10. I don't have either

I think it's a tremendous sacrifice. People can get alienated from their 'bad' (meaning hip) self, and lost in those parental roles. Hipsters think it is lame, but I think that parents, GOOD parents, are incredibly heroic.

[Dastard Stepchild]

11. Not in the slightest....

Marriage and impending motherhood has brought out strengths, talents, interests and abilities that I never knew I had or never had the desire to polish in the past.

In the time that my husband and I met, I completed my BA, my MA and am working on my PhD. I've also attained a level of relationship satisfaction with friends and family that I did not have previously. In my case, marriage helped to ground me and bring about a self (and a life) that I truly enjoy.

Marriage doesn't always work, but when it does, it can be amazing.

[SarahB]

12. Maybe you just don't see all their sides.

Maybe they share that part of themselves with their partners. There are things my husband sees and knows abut me that I'm not going to share with the entire universe. He knows everything. Close friends know some more. Acquaintances know a little. Other than that, I don't give a fuck. People want to see a 35 year old mom of four that could stand to lose 20 pounds and only listens to music produced before 1990 and call it "lame"? Oh well, you have no clue how the most "boring" people are privately when the pretentious bullshitters are so busy being cool. You'd be surprised.

[Hardrada]

13. The birth of children is the death of parents.

-Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

Just sayin'

[LostInAnomie]

36. I said that to my friend once a few months after the birth of his son.

At first he said he didn't get it. Then, I explained it to him and he got a sad, far off look in his eyes, and told my to shut up.

He knows having a kid has kind of stolen his soul and turned him into a boring, Dora watching, play-group hosting husk. He just hates getting punched in the face with it.

[Arugula Latte]

59. I wish you realized how arrogant you sound.

You don't have a child, so you have no idea. YOU don't get it...Believe me, there is WAY more to having kids than you think, and a lot of it can't be explained until you go through it.

[LostInAnomie]

61. So let me get this straight.

You don't know me.

You don't know my friend.

You don't know the relationship I have with my friend.

You are saying that you know better than me because my opinion on human nature is irrelevant since I don't have kids.

And, I am the one that sounds arrogant?

[Arugula Latte]

62. You are reducing his parenthood experience down to a couple of

superficial things (Dora, playgroups) that you don't find interesting. You do not know that there is a much deeper side to parenting than meets the eye of the non-parent. I'm not telling you that your opinion on human nature is irrelevant because you don't have kids; I am saying that you are passing negative, superficial judgment on an experience that you have no clue about.

[LostInAnomie]

64. And, you are conflating parenthood with divine revelation...

... claiming that it provides some kind of enlightenment that non-parents could never fathom. That is the height of arrogance, especially when the standard of measurement is as subjective as "lame shell of themselves".

The subjective nature of the question makes the opinions of non-parents about the lameness or non-lameness of their married-with-children friends are as valid as anyone else's. Many people view parenthood as a continual act of self-alienation forcing the parent to suppress their own drives. Or, they view the behavior or their friends as a shallow husk of the dynamic person they used to be. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it. If your sensibilities are offended by the opinions of others, then perhaps this isn't the thread for you

[REP]

67. You're Just Hearing The Sound of a Bingo Card Being Filled In

[WildEyedLiberal]

75. OMG how sad - I'm only 22 and I've heard at least half of these already

And I've never been in a serious relationship, let alone entertained having kids. But the minute I mention that I don't WANT kids, I get hit with one or more of those phrases, as if the idea that I might not want children is silly/ephemeral/blasphemous.

[treestar]

14. Not married and don't have children

Fortunately my fellow Americans have been so nice as to warn me off.

Marriage is hard work, there is no romance, etc., etc. Having children means you won't get to do anything for yourself, etc. etc.

Hardly anyone says anything about marriage these days that makes it sound the least bit desirable.

[Adsos Letter]

15. ...other...

...only if you allow it to. Having a family has created one of the greatest joys of my life.

[Cairycat]

16. Sharing the highest highs and lowest lows

I can't imagine experiencing either all alone. I can't even begin to imagine anything I could give up as a single person that would be worth not having my family to share everything with.

My husband of 21 years was the one holding my hand three weeks ago while I got the injection in my eyeball that is my best hope against blindness (wet macular degeneration). I've no idea if I would have been able to go through with it, (much less do it monthly per the treatment plan) without his steady presence, his encouraging me without pushing too hard, or his acceptance of my decisions. What's amazing is my dad was going blind already when we first met, so we did actually have an idea this could happen to me. Knowing that we'll always love each other means being able to get through the worst of what life can deal you.

Our three children are the joy of our lives. Yes, we gave up sleep and have a messy house and sometimes the computer is screwed up from their games or the car seat is wet because our daughter left the windows rolled up, all those kinds of things. But it's just been so cool to see them become their own people, with their own ideas and opinions. Their interests have led us learn about things we never thought about, taken us in directions we'd never have gone ourselves. They do share our interest in a lot of things and it's been wonderful to have them to go with us places we enjoy going, learning what makes us tick. They've shown us what our strengths and weaknesses really are.

I've never felt that I've lost anything of myself because of my husband and kids, just feel richer because of the ways they've supported me and challenged me to be the best person I can be.

[My Good Babushka]

17. Kids will change you

but I think it's worth it. Babyhood and childhood last for such a short time, it's not that bad putting yourself on hold. I don't find it that hard, anyway. Motherhood has made me more patient and strong and understanding, and when I get back to my own work, I do it more diligently, and I don't give up, because there is so much more at stake. I think there is a dearth of creativity in married and single folks, with and without children. If only people would turn off their TeeVees and DO Something!

[EstimatedProphet]

19. I think it hinges on "most"

Depends on what "most" means. It certainly does have that effect on some people. For others it brings true meaning to their lives.

[Droopy]

20. Nah

I have friends who are married and have children. I also have single friends. I am single with no children.

In my view, the only things that change when you get married and have kids are your priorities. My married with kids friends are still the same people they used to be when they were single. They just have other responsibilities now and I'm cool with that.

I'm 34 and I've never married because I just have no desire to be married. I also don't have any kids because I think I'd make a lousy father.

[BarenakedLady]

23. It makes you a somewhat different person

Could be a person you like or not. Depends on how happy you are really.

I say I lost myself along the way. But I'm slowly finding her again. What changes that will bring, who knows.

[gollygee]

25. I think a happy marriage and family brings out the best in people

People who are unhappily married can be obviously unhappy and in that might appear as you think married people are.

[Maine-ah]

30. um, no.

My husband and I have an incredible relationship. We have known eachother since jr. high. Along with the exact same group of friends that we still hang out with. Even one of our best friends married my husband's cousin. We all have kids too...and they all play together now. It's awesome! And we still go out and have fun as well. Maybe it happens to some people, but it didn't happen to us.

Ok, so I don't do a few things that I used to, but even that with most people changes as you grow older.

[EFerrari]

31. I had a great time with both and though divorced now, woud do it again.

[NC_Nurse]

32. No.

There are empty shells out there in both camps.

[skygazer]

33. Of course not

Who's to say that the person they were before they had marriage and kids was necessarily the "real" them? Maybe the real them is the person they become after that.

For most people, the majority of their lives is lived AFTER those events. So who knows?

I know some people change drastically when they have kids. Other people really don't. Maybe the problem is the perception of those who find them lame shells. Maybe those people find they have less in common with their friends now and so decide it's because their friends are no longer themselves when the truth is, their friends have entered another stage in their lives.

If we all stayed the way we are at 22, we'd be a pretty silly bunch.

[ulysses]

34. no. n/t

[supernova]

50. Not automatically no,

It really doesn't have to be that way. however, it can happen if you are prone to improper boundaries and martyrdom, namely not carving out enough "me time" for your priorities and goals, apart from your family.

[Maestro]

55. Not for me.

I have accomplished more since being married and having kids than when I was just a single guy. True, I have sacrificed things and I do not do some of the fun things I used to or at least not as frequently. However, I do many fun things now that I never would have thought of without kids and a family in general. I wouldn't change a thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. It does IF they turn into child worhippers, you know, the type

who devote themselves so totally to their children that they block out the whole rest of the world.

It's NOT inevitable, because it doesn't happen to everyone.

[Arugula Latte]

58. "Lame shells" -- wow ... that is harsh.

For a lot of us, having kids is the most intense and amazing part of our human experience. I feel infinitely enriched for having kids. I do not feel like a lame shell of my former self and I don't think the people I know would describe me as that.

I would say having kids was a relief in the sense of it took away my luxury (which is usually ultimately a burden) of obsessing on myself.

[Jack_Dawson]

60. YES - with one friend. NO - with the other

My best friend from college...we don't even speak anymore. He's got other priorities...I can dig it. My other best friend from college - we speak every day. Both friends have three kids and are happily married. People evolve.

[Left Is Write]

63. Nope. I've been a parent for 20 years and a wife for 10 years.

Remarkably, I'm also still ME!

[SarahB]

72. I wonder if the experience is different for people like you and I.

What I mean by that is I know you have also been a parent basically your entire adult life as I have (had my daughter at 20). I can imagine if some is 35 or 40 and has never experienced parenthood, it could be a more profound change on who they are. Most certainly not "lame shells" as the OP said, but an entirely different experience perhaps than what you and I went through. We had to grow up really fast.

[MissMillie]

69. No.

It *may* bring out a different side of a person's personality--one where compromise and sacrifice show up more often than it would otherwise.

We evolve throughout our lives and I think that during a marriage and during child-raising years a person's priorities are different.

Does that make them lame? Does it mean they become only a shell of their former selves?

I don't think so.

I suppose it could be argued that until we get married and have kids we are but a lame shell of the people we are supposed to be.

But if anyone made that argument there would be a flame war, and rightly so. But it's really no different than what you've said.

[Orrex]

70. Hear, hear!

I suppose it could be argued that until we get married and have kids we are but a lame shell of the people we are supposed to be.

I've known quite a few people--myself first among them--who were selfish, aimless fuck-ups prior to marriage and/or parenthood. While I'm sure that not everyone who gets married or has kids will automatically get their shit together, I've seen it happen enough times for me to conclude that there must be some significant correlation.

[zanne]

71. The real "you" always remains, no matter what.

We don't even have to try to be true to our characters and personalities; it's inevitable. I will always be me and you will always be you.

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73. In my experiences, YES. It's very common for them to become boring to the rest of the world

I have seen this happen over and over again - a young, vivacious couple undergoes a dramatic lifestyle change when they have kids - especially more than one kid, close together. They tend to withdraw, at least partially, from their social circles, and their free time is wrapped up with the kids. They may make token appearances with their previous social contacts, but it's not like it was before. Their personalities change too - and not necessarily for the better! They don't realize it themselves - only people outside their immediate family can truly see the change, because they are the objective observers whose view of the people is not clouded by being enamored of the babies. It is really sad to see this happen to people and it might be a factor in some divorces. This is something I have noticed for years and I'm glad someone else finally pointed it out.