U.S. couple has 17th child, not done yet

[ashling]

Jennifer Dannielle Duggar became the 17th child and seventh girl in her family when she was born at 10:01 a.m. Thursday at a hospital in Rogers, Arkansas.

Her father and mother, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, say they aren't finished, that they want more children.

"We'd love to have more," Michelle said, referring to baby girls. "We love the ruffles and lace."

Jennifer joins the fast-growing Duggar brood, who live in a 7,000-square-foot (650-square-meter) home in Tontitown. All the children — whose names start with the letter J — are taught at home.

***
"We are just so grateful to God for another gift from him," said Jim Bob Duggar, a former state representative. "We are just so thankful to him that everything went just very well."



http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-08/03/content_64...

[LynneSin]

1. Why are these people celebrated for overbreeding

[Seashell Eyes]

2. because they are white and Christian

They say they are letting god dictate how many children they have. "We are so grateful to God for another gift from him." That's what really irritates me.They don't believe in personal responsibility. Fucking creates babies. Not god.

[John Kerry VonErich]

6. What do you mean "personal responsibility"?

They're not bothering anyone, nor there are any signs of abuse from within.

[grace0418]

7. They are overtaxing the planet, that bothers me. And abuse doesn't have to be physical.

Lack of one-on-one parental attention can have negative effects. I should know, I'm the youngest of 11. There is no physical way for two human beings to provide enough personal attention to 17 children. There simply aren't enough hours in the day. I guarantee that the older kids are getting stuck with a lot of the responsibility, unless they have an army of nannies and maids. That's not fair to the older kids or the younger ones.

People used to have large families for survival reasons. There was a lot of manual labor involved in everyday existence, and a lot of hands were needed to take care of everything. With high infant mortality rates, disease and accidents, people had to make sure that there were enough kids to survive until adulthood.

But what is the possible reason for it in today's world, where our planet is overburdened and there are millions of starving children with no families? If these people want so many kids, can't they at least adopt a few? Wouldn't that be the Christian thing?

Maybe the kids will turn out fine, but I still think it's irresponsible and selfish.

[Left Is Write]

8. I agree with you.

I am the middle of five children, and I think each of us kids got just the right amount of personal attention from our parents. With a family any larger, though, I think we might have been spread too thinly.

Michelle Duggar cares for the newest baby, and as soon as a new one comes along, the "old" baby is passed on to one of the other children to care for. They call them "buddies," but what it really amounts to is "surrogate parent." I am strongly against placing this kind of burden on the other children, essentially saddling them with the responsibility of raising their younger siblings.

[AllegroRondo]

12. I agree

the older kids dont have any time to be kids - they're too busy being surrogate parents for the younger ones.

[tigereye]

85. I fully agree

[Cathyclysmic]

95. Bingo.

Not to mention that, given their beliefs, the girls of the family are practically born into slavery.

[pstokely]

167. The older siblings probably babysit the younger ones

If they want more kids, why don't they just adopt? If she going to keep popping out babies until menopause?

[krispos42]

190. They aren't overtaxing the planet, they're overtaxing themselves

17 people, one way or another, won't cause an ecosystem collapse.

However they cannot be effective parents even if they were independently wealthy and able to be home 7 days a weeks. I can't see how they can have more than a overview of what's going on around them.

And I do wonder how much of that dreaded welfare that the neocons scream so much about they are getting? I know they do stuff for TV, but how much can they make from that, compared to how much they need to house, feed, and clothe 17 children?


Like Bill Maher said, we're not rebuilding after the flood!

[China_cat]

18. Would you want to be one of that brood?

Especially one of the older girls? No signs of abuse? Those girls are the ones who end up parenting the littler kids once the mother stops breastfeeding...sooner if the baby is bottle fed.

I would think that not allowing a child to have a childhood IS abuse.

[John Kerry VonErich]

20. Have you been to their house?

Any proof on that allegation against that family specifically?

[Pacifist Patriot]

22. Actually, there have been articles and television segments on the family.

They allow the press into their lives. They have a system that buddies up the baby with an older child for raising. I do so try to keep an open mind, but this is a family that gives me the skeeves. Sorry!

[John Kerry VonErich]

38. Totally understandable, Pacifist :)

But don't judge too quickly without anything that is concrete.

[China_cat]

64. Their own words do it for me.

That they pass the baby on to a 'buddy' when mom is pregnant again. The kids (again read 'the girls' since this is woman's work) do the cooking, cleaning and laundry. Mom plays incubator. Period. (Or maybe that's why she stays pregnant...doesn't like having periods)

In families that believe in that type of religion, you can bet that the 'buddies' are not male.

And denying ANY child a childhood is abuse.

[lynnertic]

75. how do you know whether their boys have less or more responsibility?

"you can bet" isn't a statement of fact and nor is "kids (read 'the girls')"

[China_cat]

89. I've known families like them.

bible believing fanatics who mandate strict gender roles, right down to the garments they're permitted to wear.

[Seashell Eyes]

104. On one of the specials,

they explained that 12 year old Jessa's chore is to do the 12 loads of laundry a day, while 15 year old John David's chore is to feed the dog.

[lynnertic]

108. Wow.

I'm lucky to accomplish a single load of laundry. But then I hate laundry. Heck, if the dog didn't harass me...

[John Kerry VonErich]

177. As I said before

Contact Arkansas child services if you think this is a huge problem.

[lynnertic]

74. That's going into hyperbole

it's not abuse, it's life.

[China_cat]

90. No it's not.

Taking a child's childhood away from them is the worst possible abuse. If you're expected to do an adult's job from the time you're able to walk and talk, what do you have when you're 30? Hell, what do you have when you're 18?

[lynnertic]

111. I'm telling you, Ms. China_cat. When you're 18, you have your emancipation, and

when you're 30, you have your childhood.

My childhood wasn't stolen from me, I wasn't abused, I helped my family and I took care of my baby brother! I'm proud of that. Sure it was a drag, but like anything you work for it has rewards. And like many other kids who had to take care of their siblings, I decided not to have children of my own. And my 30's are better than anyone's teens could ever be. I think I won!

So your warning *should be* that the parent who puts their child to work early, loses their grandchildren. The kids aren't abused necessarily.

[China_cat]

121. And when you're 60 you can sit and realize

that you may have been young but you were never a child.

There's a big difference between helping out at home and becoming (even as a surrogate) a mother at age 8 or even younger.

[lynnertic]

133. Easy for you to say.

I'll be shocked if when I'm 60, I suddenly mourn a childhood I've been okay with up until now.

I'll remember you and realize you were right: that all along I should have been bitter about my role in raising younger brothers, not happy or appreciated. I'll realize that I could have harbored my teenage angst for decades and I didn't take advantage of it.

Oh, the therapy I could have spent all my money on. The drugs I could have been prescribed! At 60 I'd have a lot of catching up to do.

But I get your point, children could be exploited this way. The Duggers are extraordinary people whose motivations I can't fathom. We're not their neighbors or their family and so really can't do much more than sit in our chairs and pass judgment on others from a distance (the great American pastime of the 21st century!)

[China_cat]

144. Ok, let me ask you this

How would you feel growing up in a family where you know (because your parents have said it on national tv) that the only important child is the NEXT one?

[lynnertic]

148. Probably something close to how I did as the oldest child of my stepmother's romantic rival

so stop condemning things you don't know about.

[China_cat]

152. Why in the world would you think I don't know?

[lynnertic]

155. Look I conceded your point two posts ago. what is it that you want?

And to answer your question: from your posts it's obvious that you only know this story through what you've seen in the media. You don't know the Duggars personally or you would have trotted it out by now. Your assertions of 'child abuse' aren't accompanied by any fact, or any statement that would suggest to me that you're an expert or have any authority whatsoever on the subject of either child rearing or child abuse. When I beg to disagree with you, you ask a rhetorical question, again providing no support for your assertion. That's why I don't think you know.

[xmas74]

52. Because, from what I've heard, q

they believe in personal responsibility yet use medicaid for both the mother and each of the children, along with the WIC program.

Doesn't sound like they practice what they preach.

[John Kerry VonErich]

128. Link on that?

nt

[xmas74]

149. It's been a few years ago.

The "link" was my local newspaper, which is not online. I remember it quite well because everyone in my area was talking about it and quite a few who thought this family was wonderful were disgusted after reading about it.

[rurallib]

88. Hopefully someone will follow this family to see how they all turn out

No doubt there will be some suicides, some drugs several divorces lots and lots more babies all of which will probably end up in costing some taxpayers something somewhere.

[treestar]

184. I am curious about the older girls and whether or not they will want

kids at all. One good effect of this would be a tendency for these girls not to get into teen pregnancies. They must already understand that a baby is a big responsibility.

[Seashell Eyes]

103. By personal responsibility I mean

their thinking that God controls every aspect of their lives including how many children they have and all of the money and free stuff they've gotten from TLC and newspapers. Also yes, they are overtaxing the planet.

[John Kerry VonErich]

129. How are they over taxing?

nt

[China_cat]

151. How much water does 12 loads of laundry a DAY

FOR ONE FAMILY take? How much electricity just for the laundry? How many vehicles do they need to carry that many? Gas and emissions from that many vehicles?

They are using at least 5 times more resources than an average family.

If they are still using medicaid for the pregnancies and the kids, how many others are denied resources because of what ONE family is using?

-That- is how they are overtaxing.

[John Kerry VonErich]

173. Their bills, they pay for it.

They are debt free so medicaid is out of the question. So why are you saying this is overtaxing when they pay for it themselves with no problems?

[China_cat]

181. It is overtaxing the environment

and debt free doesn't mean medicaid is out of the question. Income and number of people in the family are the qualifying requirements for that.

I'm beginning to believe that you are just putting people on. I don't think these posts have been written so that anyone could easily misunderstand the context in the manner you seem to be doing.

[John Kerry VonErich]

183. They are not poor

Therefore they aren't qualified for Medicaid.

Now you are beginning to piss me off over saying I am "putting people on". What context do you not understand? All I am saying is that the family broke no law, if they want a huge family that is their business, and there is nothing wrong with house chores and if so show me the video of the news story some of you saw. And as I said before and I will say it again contact DHS so they can investigate any sort of child abuse, as you said before. Nothing political about it, I violated no rules here. I don't deserve the flaming you just gave me. I was just on the opposite end of this. If you or anyone else didn't understand what I responded to here, please let me know so I can respond. My god!

[China_cat]

189. If they aren't poor, why is their community and other family

helping support them?

No they are breaking no laws. They are, however, being immensely selfish in a time when resources for everyone are getting shorter. As Americans who are trying to be more responsible in our use we still use much more than our fair share of natural resources.

Continuing to breed like rabbits is just so totally irresponsible.

[John Kerry VonErich]

192. How is the community and other families helping?

What do they need help on?

[Wetzelbill]

122. my mother came from a family that big.

Not a white family either. They are Christian, but it has nothing to do with Christianity. Where I'm from and in my culture having a big family is a communal thing. Families are extended. They rely on each other. It's important to have kids and to raise them to respect family and elders, because as a community people take care of each other. Now it's more assimilated, but traditionally American Indians - I am Blackfeet - have big families.

[John Kerry VonErich]

130. Give this poster a million dollars

You hit it right on the money.

[Seashell Eyes]

145. I was saying that was why they got all the media attention

not why they had a big family. Raising people to respect family and take care of each other is a good thing.

[Wetzelbill]

146. I wasn't being critical, I get what you meant

I was just giving another situation and pov to augment why some people have a lot of children.

[grace0418]

185. Traditionally a lot of people had big families. My mother is Irish Catholic

so few were surprised at her having eleven kids. With manual labor being important for a family's survival, and infant mortality rates, and disease, etc. it certainly made sense for people to have large families. Now it isn't necessary and is in fact a huge problem for the planet to support the human population as it stands. Should people be told to stop having kids? Of course not. But having 17 kids is just not fair to anyone given what few resources this planet has left.

And, on a more personal scale, it's really not fair to force those children to have 1/17th of their parents attention, if that.

[pstokely]

166. Are they gettting government assistance?

[Pacifist Patriot]

3. Judgmentalism is impossible to escape here.

That is just ecologically and biologically irresponsible. So sue me for having a strong opinion on this. Can you imagine what our planet would look like if every contemporary family capable of producing 17+ children did so?

[John Kerry VonErich]

11. We don't know them personally.

We just only hear them when another is born. Maybe they have a parenting system that works well, who knows (and if they did, the mother and father should write a "how to" book). But for me, to each their own.

[IndianaJones]

15. psst...you're supposed to pile on...nt.

[Pacifist Patriot]

21. Not fair and not true. Do you know the saying, "there are pros and cons to everything?"

I would be interested in hearing what the pros are to having 17+ children in 21st century America. In terms of the parents, siblings, offspring, local community and global community. Something beyond "to each his own."

I'm quite serious. I would like to know what the affirmative defense would be for a family size of this degree.

[IndianaJones]

24. I only knows the pros and cons of hitchiking.

However, you are not suggesting this thread is meant for serioius discussion of this woman?

[Pacifist Patriot]

26. Nah, probably not, but I look for intellectual stimulation anywhere I can get it.

If someone bites, we all win.

[IndianaJones]

27. I'm sure theres a thread in GD that relates to this topic....

I don't begrudge peoples right to point and laugh.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. As long as I don't have to go to...

Religion/Theology to discuss it. Ouch, my knickers are still smoking on that forum.

[IndianaJones]

30. No fan of religion am I. I don't even look there. nt.

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. I should know better.

[ashling]

72. I posts where I post

When I post stuff here I get told to take it to GD. When I post in GD I get told to bring it here.

I think this is as good a place as any for a legitimate serious dicussion ... and BTW, I agree with Pacifist Patriot:
having 17 kids with the intention of having them till they stop coming is totally irresponsible for so many reasons.

[ashling]

69. Well actually, yeah, it was . . .

what makes you think that I posted this for some other reason than serious discussion . . . what, do I look like matcom?

[tigereye]

86. for instance, how can they possibly afford it?

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. I don't have to know anyone personally to feel that...

seventeen children per couple is environmentally irresponsible. Doesn't matter what kind of parents they are. Again, extrapolating the population impact if more families were of this size.

To each his own is fine within limits. I can't apply that to all situations. FGM for example. Sorry, can't give in to cultural differences on that one. To each his own doesn't always work.

Committed relativism rather than the extremes of dogmatism or relativism makes more global sense to me.

[LibraLiz1973]

17. they have done TV specials on them

And it is clearly stated that once the new baby arrives, the youngest gets paired up with a "buddy".

The poor kids in that house do all the cooking, cleaning and laundry.

Mom doesn't seem to do much except shoot another one out every so often.

[John Kerry VonErich]

34. Wonder who taught em.

Nothing wrong with house chores, I did them myself and I am 4th of 6 kids. I am very sure that the older kids can work the stove so no endangerment there. Plus there must've been an allowance as well (thats my guess).

[LibraLiz1973]

117. They don't get allowance

And it is the girls that are responsible for the cooking.
You know, since that's womans work.




I started doing my own laundry at 8 years old. Having said that- my mom didn't treat me like a servant. I feel the Duggars do treat their children like workers.
It's hard to watch.

[John Kerry VonErich]

131. Have you lived on a farm?

Have a cousin that does, and try doing farm chores at the age of 8 on. Not easy work there.

[LibraLiz1973]

138. Huh?

What's your point??
That made no sense?

[xmas74]

156. What the hell kind of argument is that?

"Ever live on a farm?"

Well yes, I have and have the callused hands to prove it. I lived on an apple orchard as a child and let me tell you-I had chores but I didn't have the large amount of what these kids had. Oh, and I was allowed to leave the house during the school year and go to a public school, where I was able to meet other kids my age.

I lived on a farm, I did my chores, I harvested apples. But I also got to see what other kids did and I got to learn things outside of what my parents believed.

The children in this home are couped up. They are homeschooled and home churched. They never get to meet others and find out how others live. Yeah, I lived in the country, I was isolated at times but I did get to meet other kids. I had time to visit every day on the school bus, in the lunchroom, on the playground. I had teachers who showed me worlds different than my own. I had a school library where I could check out books whenever I wanted. These children don't get any of that. They stay home for school and they stay home for church. Where is the socialization with other children their own ages? There is none and that is absolutely wrong.

[John Kerry VonErich]

160. Just comparing regular house chores to farm chores.

My cousin was raised on a livestock farm and that he had it harder then just doin the laundry and transporting bails of hay. Farms are also homesteads ya know,

If they home school the kids, that's their business. I won't tell you or anyone else how to raise a family. If you truly believe there maybe abuse, please contact the Arkansas DHS...

http://www.arkansas.gov/dhs/homepage.html

[xmas74]

161. Do you really think they'll do much?

He's been a state rep before and I know how that goes-those types get the heads up before anything happens. (I saw that when a police chief was accused and yes, this was witnessed firsthand. I was informed by someone from a DFS office to call the chief and let him know they would be there w/in 24 hours.)

And that many loads of laundry are harder to do than you think. Sounds like you've never done laundry on that level. With that many little ones it would be stained so the person in charge would have to separate and scrub everything by hand first, in order to attempt to get the set-in stains out. Then the nonstop stooping and lifting, stooping and lifting. Then of course we have the folding and ironing, which takes forever.

If you've never worked in laundry you'd have no idea how hard it really is on you. And the person in charge of the laundry still has a little one or two to chase around while the mother is getting knocked up once again.

Most of the faithful who homeschool their children rarely home church them too. They WANT those children to have a sense of community of some sort. The church will be where they will look for their potential friends and eventually their partners in life. They won't find them around the house, unless you advocate that too.

Seems to me all you do is play devil's advocate. Why even open your mouth anymore? What you say isn't making all that much sense.

As to farming-it's your COUSIN who did it, not you. I know what goes on with the farm life while you know from visits and from secondhand news from your cousin. I know what the worry is like when there's too much or not enough rain. I know what a farm looks like come April 1. (I still have nightmares about stepping on the ground.) I know what's involved and guess what? Most homesteaders still wanted a sense of community. Just do a bit of reading about old-time homesteaders-most visited in town when they could, many attended service when able and most sent their children to public school if it was an option. They wanted their own land, away from prying eyes, but they also wanted to belong.

Usually when someone does so much to keep their family away from others there is something else going on. And if you keep saying "report them" well I can say this too-you don't have to let DFS into your home. Sure, there will be further investigation but with a decent lawyer you'll do fine.

[John Kerry VonErich]

172. OK

"He's been a state rep before and I know how that goes-those types get the heads up before anything happens. (I saw that when a police chief was accused and yes, this was witnessed firsthand. I was informed by someone from a DFS office to call the chief and let him know they would be there w/in 24 hours.)"

"Usually when someone does so much to keep their family away from others there is something else going on. And if you keep saying "report them" well I can say this too-you don't have to let DFS into your home. Sure, there will be further investigation but with a decent lawyer you'll do fine."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What some of you are saying that this is slave labor (even though there are absolutely no child labor laws when it comes to family). Therefore it is my guess that the ACLU should be involved since you are calling this slavery.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And that many loads of laundry are harder to do than you think. Sounds like you've never done laundry on that level. With that many little ones it would be stained so the person in charge would have to separate and scrub everything by hand first, in order to attempt to get the set-in stains out. Then the nonstop stooping and lifting, stooping and lifting. Then of course we have the folding and ironing, which takes forever."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know what it's like. I have done more than my share throughout the years. But as I said before, you haven't been to there house. They may have carts, and they may have help lift or made sure there was enough to lift. They may have a steam press for ironing and not just a simple iron. Who knows.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Most of the faithful who homeschool their children rarely home church them too. They WANT those children to have a sense of community of some sort. The church will be where they will look for their potential friends and eventually their partners in life. They won't find them around the house, unless you advocate that too."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again there is no evidence that the household is used as some sort of "prison". No proof that the children are couped up.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Seems to me all you do is play devil's advocate. Why even open your mouth anymore? What you say isn't making all that much sense."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I am. No need to make personal attacks, I've done nothing to you. If there is something that doesn't make sense, tell me and I will try and explain it the best I can.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"As to farming-it's your COUSIN who did it, not you. I know what goes on with the farm life while you know from visits and from secondhand news from your cousin. I know what the worry is like when there's too much or not enough rain. I know what a farm looks like come April 1. (I still have nightmares about stepping on the ground.) I know what's involved and guess what? Most homesteaders still wanted a sense of community. Just do a bit of reading about old-time homesteaders-most visited in town when they could, many attended service when able and most sent their children to public school if it was an option. They wanted their own land, away from prying eyes, but they also wanted to belong."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a difference here. Your's is a orchard farm and my cousin is a livestock farm. Going back to the laundry, I called my aunt after reading this, and between doing 12 loads of laundry a day and carrying 100 bails of hay singlehandedly, she'd do the laundry. Yes, I will admit, my cousin did go to public school, but it was a very small school until high school. The school he went to was a combined elementary/Jr. High school and the # of children including himself is 9 in his class before he went to high school. And yes they do visit town to get goods and equipment. He even did it himslef when he got his drivers license at 16. I brought up the farm thing because the Dugger's have it a lil better than what my cousin went through when it came to chores. That's all I was saying.

[Deja Q]

175. Well, the couple are farmers...

He plants the seeds and she delivers the cabbages... certainly not easy for her, but by now he's got to be knackered too... or maybe not, farming is such a noble way of life...

[John Kerry VonErich]

176. Oh great, now the parents work for Hasbro.

lol

[Deja Q]

178. Hasbro? You mean they're brother and sister?

[John Kerry VonErich]

180. LOL

You're the one that said cabbage.

[Deja Q]

191. LOL!

And you're the one who said "Hasbro"!

[John Kerry VonErich]

193. Unless we can go back to the 80's

Where Coleco owned the rights to Cabbage Patch Kids.

[grace0418]

35. If their parenting system works so well, maybe they should take in some orphans

rather than overburdening our planet any further.

And if you want to know how well their parenting system works, ask my oldest sister, who still suffers to this day from not having a childhood because she got stuck helping raise the younger kids. Or ask me, who got parents too burnt out and tired to pay much attention to me. I was mostly raised by siblings, who were too immature to be responsible guides. The Duggans have described how they "buddy" up a younger kid with an older kid. Does the older kid get a choice? Do they get a childhood? Does the younger kid get a responsible adult guiding and teaching them? You wouldn't dream of having the teenager next door raise your child for you, would you? Why is it okay for the Duggans to force their older children into servitude?

I'm sorry, but the "to each his own" argument fails for me when other people are forced to live with the consquences of one's selfish decisions. Those kids have no choice in the matter. And I cannot imagine how anyone could think that a woman who is constantly pregnant and who has 16 other children could possibly have the physical and/mental resources to give the 17th a reasonable amount of attention and care.

[John Kerry VonErich]

33. I highly doubt even 10% would want a family as large as theirs.

But as a guy who passionately believes in a woman's right to choose, we cannot set a double standard (not really trying to make this an abortion issue). And if anyone thinks you can't have as many children as they want, then I'm sorry we are not China where there is a 2 child per family limit.

[grace0418]

43. I completely support her right to choose and would never support a family size limit

like in China. But that doesn't mean I applaud her irresponsibly and selfishly breeding, any more than I would applaud a woman who uses abortion as a form of birth control.

Just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you *should* do it.

[John Kerry VonErich]

126. Unless your name is Duggar or Osmond for that matter

Huge families aren't for everyone.

[Deja Q]

179. Imagine that, "The Duggar Variety Hour"...

That's to ghastly to contemplate... and in order to make all 17 kids, I wonder if it added up to even an hour (on his part)...

And the teeth of the Osmonds were scary enough...

[John Kerry VonErich]

188. Couldn't be more scary like the Brady Variety Hour

nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

55. I believe in a woman's right to choose, but that doesn't mean I also must...

believe it is morally defensible to use abortion as a means of birth control on a routine basis. This is not a matter of a double standard. I'm not condemning her right to choose, I'm judging this couple's decision making.

[xmas74]

158. Question is-did she really choose this lifestyle?

Read up a bit about the Quiverful lifestyle and you'll wonder if she actually chose it with a sound mind. Those who have left the life admit that women and female children are treated like third class citizens. Heck, from what I understand the mother of this brood was guilted into the lifestyle by a doctor who stated that her miscarriage was a punishment from God because she once used birth control.

Google it if you're interested.

[seemunkee]

4. Of course it went well

They probably just fall out now.

Now everybody join me in a round of "Every Sperm is Sacred"

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. Bwa! The Brits produce so much better humor than we do.

I am now a devotee of French & Saunders.

This woman no longer has a birth canal, but a water slide.

[AllegroRondo]

10. Have you seen "The Vicar of Dibly"

Hilarious!

[Pacifist Patriot]

13. Are you kidding? I AM the Vicar of Dibley...

minus the Jesus talk. At least that's what one of my husband's clients from Warwick said when he met me two weeks ago. His jaw kept dropping whenever he reminded himself I was a minister.

My husband brought some of the files home from London last week. So I started watching the show and fell in love with it. I've seen the first 7 episodes and am looking forward to the rest. I'm 5'9" and 140 pounds, but otherwise....Geraldine and I are soulmates.

I can't believe I didn't stumble onto it sooner considering she's a principle writer on Ab Fab. BBC American running an Ab Fab marathon got me through an airline flight once when my valium failed to do the trick.

[southerncrone]

93. My husband had this to say about Mrs. Duggar:

She doesn't have a c**t anymore, it's a blowhole!

[Darth_Kitten]

134. ???

Since when was c**t a funny word to use with any woman?

[Heidi]

137. And you let him kiss you with that mouth? (nt)

[Mad_Dem_X]

229. "They probably just fall out now"

That's exactly what I was thinking. Yuck!

[Deep13]

9. The suit the smallest one is wearing--

Do you think it is getting a bit thread-bare by now?

I am sure the dresses for the girls will look a lot better when they have been tie-dyed.

[Pacifist Patriot]

14. Bwa!

[cynatnite]

19. If each kid had 17 babies like mom, there would be 189 grandchildren...

A thousand years ago having large families like this were necessary.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. My grandfather was one of 14....BUT

Infant mortality was higher and only 8 reached adulthood. They also had a family farm that had to be worked within the family for economic reasons. I'm still waiting for someone to provide me with the contemporary pros of this kind of family size. Geez, I hate being so judgmental, but this is one of those times I just can't escape it. Mind shut tight as a steel trap. Bugger!

[Sanctified]

37. The major pro that I can see is the children are the product of good breeding stock.

A mother who at 40 can still produce healthy children consistently is not that common.

[Darth_Kitten]

141. it's a myth that 40 is the cut off stage for women having babies......

n/t

[pstokely]

168. Is she going to keep popping babies out until menopause?

[cynatnite]

170. Well, if they don't mind assistance from science...

she could pop out more after menopause. Then they'll call it a miracle.

[grace0418]

39. I agree completely PP. I don't see myself budging on this because I am the

product of a huge family. No matter how well-intentioned these people are or how much money they have, they cannot possibly provide the attention and individual care each child needs. And I don't find it cute or admirable that they've forced their older children to take over parenting responsibilities. Can you imagine if somebody forced their teen child to work full time and support the family (and not out of dire necessity but out of selfishness)? People would freak out, it would be all over the news! But the Duggans can force their children to be un-paid nannies and we're supposed to say "to each his own"? I don't think so.

That's not even getting into the fact that the earth doesn't need any more humans. Or that there are millions of children who don't have families and could sure use one.

[racaulk]

45. Ahem...289

[cynatnite]

61. Okay, math's not my strong suit as you can tell...

My brain forgot to add.

[lynnertic]

76. My money says that at least the older ones won't have kids

in my experience kids who have to help raise their siblings usually don't go on to have children of their own.

[WilliamPitt]

23. The salmon people.

Unleash the grizzlies.

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. RRRRrrrrrr...

My comments would be the same if they were a flaming liberal pinko commie family populating their own commune. Sorry Will, but it's not like they're shying away from media attention. They have sought it out and reep the consequences.

That, and it's Friday night and I'm bored. If she'd known better she'd have given birth on a Monday.

God I hope you realize I'm kidding on that one!

[WilliamPitt]

32. "If she'd known better she'd have given birth on a Monday."

At the rate they're going, she might anyway.

And again on Thursday.

They're going to run out of J-names.

Jaloopie.

Jufizzbit.

Jabberjunk.

Jallllaaaaggghhhhllll.

[grace0418]

46. I love the last one. It's funny that they waited until #17 to use Jennifer.

I vote for Jamiroquai next. Or take a page out of Jermaine Jackson's book and name one Jermajesty.

Jerky? Jingle bell (for that Xmas baby)? Jar Jar?

[WilliamPitt]

50. Jadflriugy35=68u'sgij

But only if it's a girl.

[grace0418]

59. Clearly, a boy saddled with that name would just get teased. eom.

[Seashell Eyes]

105. How about Jumanji?

[ashling]

73. Don't forget the Jabberwock

my friend ....

[Lasher]

123. They should have used Justaboutenough long ago

Sheesh.

[Sanctified]

36. If they can afford that many children then more power to them.

If the parents and children are all happy who's to say there is a problem. My great grandparents on my mothers side had 13 children but that was back when it was common for kids to die and you needed a large family to run a farm.

[grace0418]

41. "but that was back when it was common for kids to die and you needed a large family to run a farm."

Exactly. What is the possible need for that now? And what about adoption if they think their parenting is so great?

I'm sorry to keep harping on this but it's a touchy subject for me. People would never say "more power to them" if a family was forcing some of their children to work full-time when they should be having a childhood. Yet that is exactly what is expected of the older children in the family. And I doubt anyone would say "to each his own" if the mom down the street let her toddlers get raised by pre-teen girls because she had other things to do. Well this Duggan woman is constantly pregnant, and while she deals with her latest spawn, she "buddies up" her younger kids with her older kids. Her older kids are indentured servants instead of kids and her younger kids are being raised by children.

[Sanctified]

47. WTF so pregnant women are incapable of taking care of children?

I must have missed the part in my child rearing book where it says, "mom disappears during the duration of a pregnancy." Either you think women are frail creatures incapable of handling pregnancy plus children or that fathers perform no role in helping to raise children. Either way I did not read anything in the article that said the older children were raising the younger, that was something you just fished out from nowhere.

[Pacifist Patriot]

54. Um, I do believe...

"while she deals with her latest spawn" does not refer to the pregnancy in the clause preceding this phrase. Been there, done that and the newborn nursing phase does NOT leave a lot of free quality time for other siblings. It takes serious juggling.

If I am not mistaken, and the poster can correct me if I am wrong, he/she is referring to the inability of a mom of a newborn to parent equitably. Not a pregnant one. And if mom pretty much always has a newborn....

[Sanctified]

57. Even with a newborn, you can still manage children.

Newborns are the easiest to manage, they eat, sleep and cry thats it. Yes you have to change diapers but literally they are 100% easier to manage than a 4 year old. Your first kid is tough because you want to hold them the whole time but by the second you got the procedure down and are less clingy to your children.

[grace0418]

58. Do you really not see the difference between taking care of one or two children

and taking care of 17 children? I could describe what my house was like on any given day if you'd like.

[Sanctified]

62. The only difference I can see is...

if you can afford 17 children or you can't afford 17 children. If they can afford 17 kids whats the problem, if they were unable to manage the children I highly doubt they would be having more.

[xmas74]

68. They are Quiverfulls.

Doesn't matter if they can afford them or handle them since their religion dictates that they must be constantly multiplying.

[tigereye]

87. but when do they have time to work and to sleep?

not trying to be funny here, but seriously.....


It makes me tired just looking at the picture, and I was one of 5. Maybe it's like CHeaper by the Dozen!

[southerncrone]

98. How many children do you have, MiltonF?

[Sanctified]

106. I have 2 and my wife and I would have more if we could afford college for all of them.

Who knows maybe we will get lucky and hit the lottery and be able to have 2 more but as it sits I won't have more than I can support.

[southerncrone]

113. Why would you want more kids?

As others here have stated, it has become environmentally reckless for humans to continue populating the earth at such a rapid rate.

The fact that you are being financially responsible concerning their well-being is commendable.

As to the fact that taking care of them is easy, then I question if you have ever taken care of kids all day every day for any length of time while also maintaining a household? I suspect not, or you would not be making the statements you have earlier in this thread. It is extremely exhausting, IF you are doing it the right way, i.e. being nurturing, caring & attentive to their needs. Not just food & diapering.

[Sanctified]

119. I quit my job which paid quite well after my second child.

So that I could work out of my home and help raise my children, I make a fraction of what I used to make but we get by. I have taken care of kids all day every day, plus maintained my house and business for 3 weeks when my wife had to attend a family emergency, it was not that hard. For me the easiest way to manage my children is to keep them active, usually we start the day by exercising usually me just chasing them around or playing Frisbee, then we have breakfast do some music time do some coloring have lunch then do some kind of physical activity like riding bikes, then do story time after which comes my favorite nap time, I then prepare dinner while they sleep and when they wake up we eat, and the rest of evening is spent listening to music and playing instruments along with the beat and then before bed we do story time again.

The environmental impact my family makes is marginal, we are hard core anti-consumerists, we shop second hand because we think it's wasteful to buy new when you can buy perfectly good clothing, furniture and tools used, we supplement our diet with vegetables we grow ourselves, we compost a lot of our waste, recycle, use alternate fuels and sources of energy. I am willing to bet that a lot of the people who say it's reckless to continue to populate the earth spend more on one latte than I spent on my entire wardrobe for the year.

[piesRsquare]

171. Um...what about the other stuff?

Grocery shopping? Laundry? Housecleaning (i.e. vacuuming, dusting, cleaning out the fridge, etc)? Taking kids to school? Homework? Yardwork? Playdates? Doctor's appointments? Bill paying? And so on and so on?

What you did sounds more to me like three weeks of babysitting. That daily "routine" you had wouldn't last a lifetime.

[liontamer]

102. actually they can't really afford them

the mom says on their website that they depend on god to send them angels. The people in their community help them out because they don't want to see the kids suffer. That plus the government assistance (When you have 17 kids even if you make 6 figures you would qualify for government assistance)

[Sanctified]

107. Ok if they can't afford the children they should not be having more.

The worst thing a person could do is rely upon others to feed, cloth and shelter their family. Community support is great but when hard times hit, that support dries up faster than a drop of water in the desert.

[grace0418]

114. Wow. Then you haven't lived in a house with more than a few kids.

It's a whole different ball game even just when the kids start outnumbering the parents. Ask anyone with three kids. Then multiply that by nearly six. It's definitely NOT a matter of money, although I have heard this family depends on financial assistance.

[Pacifist Patriot]

81. Not a chance!

Sorry, but I have three kids so I know of what I speak. You may have had easy newborns and been able to go with the flow, but that's not always what happens. Two of my three had colic and were highly needy. Ever try nursing one child while wiping the poopy butt of another? Yes it can be done, but if anyone says its easy they are full of what's in the diaper.

[grace0418]

56. NO, it was something I read from direct quotes from them in other articles.

And from the various tv specials that they were on. They buddy up a younger child with an older child so the mom can focus on her latest pregnancy and/or the most recent infant. They've said it themselves, on many occasions. They are not shy about it. They seem rather proud of their ingenious plan in fact.

What I am saying is that no woman, pregnant or otherwise, is physically capable of caring for 17 children fairly and equally and with enough care and attention.

I know what mulitiple pregnancies do to a woman's body. I've taken my mother (who "only" had eleven) to the doctor enough times to hear all the things that her pregnancies have done to her. It's no disrespect to the strength of women or the responsibility of the fathers. But please do not try to tell me that having 17 kids wouldn't wear you out a little bit. That being pregnant virtually every year wouldn't have *some* negative impact on your health and strength. There's a HUGE difference between recovering from one pregnancy while caring for one or two children and recovering from 17 pregnancies. And one man isn't enough to pick up the slack. No matter how responsible and loving and well-intentioned he is. There is a reason why humans evolved to have one child at a time and not litters.

[Sanctified]

60. She is volunteering to do it, no one is forcing her.

Why is it such a big deal if she wants to have kids. I could care less if they were the world record holders in child bearing and popped out 40 kids.

Humans evolved to have 1 child a year, not litters a year. They are not having litters a year they are having 1 child sometimes 2 but thats how our bodies were made.

[Piltdown13]

101. In fact, humans evolved to have one child every 4 or 5 years

...not every single year. Sure, it's physically possible for some women to have one a year for many years, but that's not what happened during the vast majority of our evolutionary history (as evidenced by the health problems caused by so many pregnancies). Before the advent of agriculture/more or less sedentary life (i.e., back when we were all hunter-gatherers), each offspring would be nursed for 3-4 years, which would suppress ovulation to the extent that generally, the woman wouldn't get pregnant again until the previous kid was weaned (or about to be). Of course, the interval between successive births would be less if a child died during infancy.

[grace0418]

116. *She* may have volunteered, as you say, but her older kids didn't.

They have to pick up the slack for all her wonderful, out-of-control breeding. Those parents are forcing their older children to give up their childhoods and be unpaid nannies to their younger siblings. They can use cute words like "buddies" all they want but that's what it comes down to: unpaid nannies.

Humans evolved to have one child at a time, sometimes two, because human children have a biological need for intensive nurturing. Many animals can walk/fly/find food within days or even hours of birth. Humans need almost two decades to fully mature. So no, giving a child 1/17th of your attention for those formative years is simply not enough.

[Nikia]

147. That also happens in smaller families

My sister and I were unpaid nannies to our half sister when we were teens. I even had been mistaken as a young teenage mother because I was taking care of the baby when my mother was also in that store/restaurant/other public place.

[China_cat]

153. And it's just as wrong there, too.

[xmas74]

67. Sorry-we've quoted much more than the article.

They often show up on Discovery Channel and TLC. Through their specials we've learned exactly how they parent. The mother admitted on one of the specials that once she has a baby she hands off the previous one to another child. The children do all the cooking and cleaning-that has also been admitted to on various specials. And there are no allowances.

A couple of years ago there was a report out of a local health office that even though the family preaches self-sufficiency and doesn't believe in government intervention of any sort that the mother and the children all were medicaid recipients and all the children under the age of five were on WIC, is was the mother.

Now you see why we are so annoyed with this family.

[Left Is Write]

115. It was NOT "fished out of nowhere."

The Duggars themselves have been pretty open about their system.

The older children are "buddied" with younger children, charged with seeing them through their daily routines (getting dressed, washed, fed, doing homework). The mother, Michelle, is always the "buddy" of the newest baby. When another baby comes, the "old" baby is passed along to a sibling.

[Deja Q]

48. Well, if the bumper sticker "America eats its young" has any literal merit,

those 17.1 giblets they feed* had better keep their eyes open at night.









* with whole grains and corn?

[Seashell Eyes]

109. She said with a saccharine voice

that being the parent of 16 children was easier than 5 children because "We work as a team." Of course it's easier. All she does is sit on her ass, or lie on her back.

[Deja Q]

135. In other words,

missionary, reverse cowgirl, and...



Please forgive.

[Seashell Eyes]

157. You are forgiven

But I think they only do it missionary, with the lights out. All of those other positions are for heathens.

[Deja Q]

174. Thanks!

And done silently too. Any sounds that it might be enjoyable is a sin worse than murder.

Of course, it's also possible they sleep in separate beds and ask for, um, "divine influence".

Divinity has been working overtime...

[texas1928]

40. It is depressing to see...

My wife and I have tried for years and can not have one, but these people are breeding like bunnies.

[Deja Q]

44. Trying is one thing, but if she wants to not succeed, there are other positions to try out...

[Pacifist Patriot]

51. That is another thing that bothers me about it.

I went through secondary sub-fertility (IUI with injectibles helped us have #2) and have other friends and family who have ridden the infertility emotional roller coaster with mixed success. Stories like these make my heart ache for couples who can't even have one.

[xmas74]

70. I hope that works out

for you soon. Hopefully you'll find out what it's like to be a parent.

[texas1928]

79. I hope so...

My wife and I would love a little one. But it does frighten me to think of being a father.

[Pacifist Patriot]

82. That right there tells me you would be a great one.

Good luck!

[xmas74]

84. Have you looked into adoption too?

Especially for a child that is a bit older than the average for adoption. I bet some 'tween out there would be forever grateful to be apart of a wonderful family that dearly loves him/her.

I have one child and I've sworn that if I ever have another it will be from adoption and it will be an older child-probably a teenager.

[Darth_Kitten]

143. That's a good sign you would be a good father......

seriously....it means you would be always wanting what's best for your child. Worrying and being concerned for your little one.

[Darth_Kitten]

142. I'm sorry to hear that.......

I don't know what else to say other than I hope you get your wish for children.

[Deja Q]

42. May I present Mr and Mrs Fuxtwoawfftin and proof they lost the bet 17 times.

[Deja Q]

49. Hmmm, 237 reasons to have sex.. I wonder if they're singing "17 down, 220 to go" followed by moaning

[Bullwinkle925]

53. I have no words . . .

except

[Deja Q]

63. Regardless of "W-word" used, this should explain it:

"What" - they fucked. At least 17.1 times.
"Where" - probably in the bedroom, but everybody always finds a place. For this couple, at least 17.1 times,.
"Who" - a weird man and his weird wife.
"When" - presumably at night, but if they're trying to rack points on their "Frequent F***ers Masturcard", they'd do it anytime...
"Why" - I have no clue. Bring in the psychiatrists. Bring in the vet to spay and neuter them too.



We all know "How", but that's a "H-Word", and that goes back to the vet's presence too...

[Mojambo]

65. I think they're having kids just for the fucking attention

Every goddamn time they squeeze one out it's another article in the newspaper.

[grace0418]

242. I don't think you're too far off.

My mother was orphaned at a very young age and raised by relatives. She claims to have had a very happy childhood but anyone who knows her well can see all the sadness and anger she carries around. She told my father she wanted a dozen children (why he didn't run screaming from the room at that point is a story for another day). What my mom really should've had was no children and a lot of therapy. At best she should've adopted puppies instead. She loved the attention she got from having so many kids. She loved the fact that being a frazzled mother of eleven (I had a twin, which would've made it a dozen) gave her all sorts of allowances, including in how she treated her kids. She loved having babies who didn't talk or rebel or have independent thoughts, babies who needed her completely and loved her more than anyone else. But as soon as those babies became toddlers and had tantrums and wanted to explore the world without her, she didn't know what to do. So she'd have another baby.

[LadyAziz]

66. Sick

Those children are going to have issues.

[JoePhilly]

71. This has scary cult written all over it ...

And how does this guy afford a 7000 square foot house ... and the money to feed 17? How about the bills for 17 births. And medical insurance?

And before anyone yells at me for assuming that its the guy that works and makes the money ... if these kids are home schooled, it is extremely likely that mom is the one home schooling them.

There are lots of big families out these ... but this screams of mental illness.

[Deja Q]

78. Replace "scary" with "incest" and I'll buy you a pepsi...

[Pacifist Patriot]

83. I'm hearing reports they use WIC, but I haven't confirmed it personally yet.

Sadly, it wouldn't surprise me since he is a "personal responsibility" Republican. Hypocrisy is their mating call after all.

[xmas74]

97. I heard that a couple of years' ago.

When the TLC/Discovery Channel special was released someone (anonymous source) from a local health office supposedly called a local paper and stated that ALL the children and the mother were on medicaid. The source also stated that all the children five and under, along with the mother, were all using WIC. I remember the source even gave a date and time for the mother's next WIC appointment, which I'm sure was immediately changed once released.

They want 17 children, let them. What slays me is that they are the "personal responsibility" types yet they use public resources. If this were a black family, a Muslim family, etc, they would be the first ones voicing their disgust with the system.

[ashling]

99. Hypocrisy is their mating call after all.

[ashling]

100. Hypocrisy is their mating call after all.

[Deja Q]

136. Pathetic.

No wonder people are outraged about welfare.

Pity I can't even find a way to shoehorn in "corporate welfare" into this discussion. Of course, if this couple was a LLC... "Baby Makers LLC". There we go... corporate welfare.

I even thought of a slogan for the duo: "This is all we do, and we do it well." Well, they do...

[Deja Q]

77. Some people have 17 jobs. They sure as hell will NEED 17 jobs.

[Blue-Jay]

80. I can't believe nobody has posted this:

PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE!!

[Lasher]

124. Heeeeeee, heeeeeee!!!

That is sooo good!

[Deja Q]

140. Now THAT'S a DUzy!

[MrScorpio]

91. "How are you feeling today, Dear?"

"Pregnant."

[southerncrone]

92. This is a crime against nature!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bob_Duggar

Fundamentalist Christian Church and

Quiverfull
"Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff, a former ardent Quiverfull adherent, birth-mother of eleven children, and former editor of Gentle Spirit Magazine, argues that the Quiverfull movement is one "in which women and children are routinely and systematically subordinated and subjugated by the men in their lives - fathers, husbands, older sons, sons, pastors, elders, leaders - as a matter of biblical principle."<31> Seelhoff charges that Quiverful adherents "never talk about the victims of the movement, other than to distance themselves, to explain how it is that the victims are aberrations," and do not talk about "the way the lives of so many, many women in that movement have been all but destroyed - women with 5, 7, 9, 11 or more children". --Wikipedia

Notice the females all have that very long, not-allowed-to-cut-your-hair hair style. Those churches that demand that are traditionally female suppressors on all levels. You can bet your bottom dollar that the "buddies" are girls.

This is a classic example of "keeping your wife barefoot & pregnant" as a form of suppression in the South.

The whole bunch has that too happy, squeaky clean, super-polished-apple-face look. Ya know, "the ignorance is bliss" brain-dead look.


This is Christian-sanctioned abuse on soooo many levels!

Jim Bob is a commercial real estate agent in Rogers, AR; same county as Wal-Mart headquarters.
Go figure!

[idgiehkt]

94. wait til they find out about birth control

boy will they feel stupid.

[bicentennial_baby]

127. Did you know that's actually why they started doing this?

According to them, when they were first married, they used BC, and she had a miscarriage, so they went to a "Christian Doctor", who taught them that BC was against God's will and that they had killed their baby by using it...

[Bjornsdotter]

96. Someone needs to tell that woman

...that it's okay to have leftover eggs, she doesn't need to use them all.

Cheers

[tandot]

110. Child tax credits in the amount of $17,000

RS Tax Tip 2007-45

With the Child Tax Credit, you may be able to reduce the federal income tax you owe by up to $1,000 for each qualifying child under the age of 17.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=106182,00.htm...

And, if she is not working, does she get exemptions for taking care of her kids?

What other benefits do they get for their children???

[southerncrone]

118. Child Tax Credit would only be $14,000, the 3 oldest don't qualify.

But still.....the taxpayers are subsidizing their religious beliefs.
As another poster stated if they were "a family of color" there would be a political example made of them for being irresponsible.

I think WIC & other welfare programs should have caps on them, say no more than 5 kids. After 5 you either have mandatory sterilization or receive no more $.

These parents are leaches.

[pstokely]

169. I don't think you find families this large in urban areas

Do you even find families this large outside of the Bible Belt or Utah?

[Nikia]

182. There were a couple of large Catholic families that went to my school

The families did not believe in birth control. The largest that I knew about was 18 (the mother had children until she was 50). I'm not sure what the financial status of that family was although only the last 5 were still in school when I entered that school district in fifth grade.
Another family was still having babies with 13 when I graduated high school. They were making it financially as they owned a successful enough construction company. For the most part, they seemed to be a loving family and had the oppurtunity to explore their own interests.
One of my best friends was the third of nine and resented that they were living poor when they could have been middle class.
As far as I can tell, the family of 18, added several times to their home which was on several acres. The family of 13, built their home on a large rural lot. My friend's family was able to find an existing house big enough to accomodate all of them, which they moved to after the fifth child.
Aside from believes and attitudes about birth control and the desire for large numbers of children, I think that such lifestyles are more popular in rural areas because it is more financially viable. My friend's family home accomodating 11 people would sell for less than $200,000. Land is also less expensive for building one's own home or expanding an existing home. In urban areas, homes with a lot of extra bedrooms are just too expensive for most families.

[Zomby Woof]

112. White plastic christ-insane people scare me

Robots *can* breed after all.

[Heidi]

120. Her body. Her choice. (nt)

[xmas74]

159. You and I normally agree but in this case

I wonder how much of this was an informed and educated decision and how much was forced upon her via a simple but effective guilt trip.

The father has said before that the first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage and that when they went to a "doctor" (loosely put in this case) he informed them that God created the miscarriage as a punishment for using birth control. They believed him and now here they are, 17 children later.

I wonder what would have happened if they'd gone to a doctor who had actually sat down with them and explained how common a miscarriage is and that many times the woman doesn't even realize she was pregnant when she miscarried. I suspect that their decision would have been much different.

[Seashell Eyes]

164. Her right to have all of those children

our right to think that it is irresponsible.

[Heidi]

165. My grandparents think it's irresponsible

that I've chosen _not_ to have children. Six of one, half-dozen of the other, in my opinion.

[Seashell Eyes]

257. I don't see how that's irresponsible

[MiserableFailure]

198. exactly

too bad that other Duers cant see that. keep your nose out of her vagina people.

[jgraz]

202. Keep my nose out of her vagina?

I'm pretty sure at this point I could get in past my shoulders.

[MiserableFailure]

204. i didn't even have to check the profile

to know that this response came from a male. what at stupid and sexist comment.

sad buddy. but come on keep protesting and stuff and paying only lip-service to women's rights.

[jgraz]

206. And of course we don't have to check your profile

to know that your post came from a brittle, humorless prig.

Y'know, you'd have a lot more credibility with your gender-equality act if you didn't engage in hateful broad-brush smears of the opposite sex.

[Seashell Eyes]

258. When they plaster themselves all over the media,

they should expect praise AND criticism.

[Nevernose]

199. That doesn't make her choice right.

It just makes it hers.

[Heidi]

200. We're awfully quick to judge, aren't we?

If the Duggars were a liberal family, I seriously doubt that we'd see a similar outcry.

Do I like it that the Duggars apparently are creating their own little band of Jesus warriors who undoubtedly will be trained to go to war against my reproductive rights? Not at all, but parents still have the right to attempt to influence their children's beliefs and actions and that happens not only on the far right, but all across the political spectrum.

Do I like it that there are now 17 more religious fundamentalists in the state where I was born? Not at all, but by the same token, I have very liberal family members who think I'm harming the progressive movement by _not_ popping out a couple of kids to counter-balance families like the Duggars. Strange logic.

Still, I won't attack the Duggars personally; this thread's posts speculating about the size of Mrs. Duggar's vagina are particularly disturbing.

[MiserableFailure]

205. most of those gross posts are from men

men who no doubt love tie dyed shirts and long hair and paying lip service to equal rights for both sexes. but when someone offends their delicate sensibilities, they will not hesitate to attack her personally as you've seen.

i'll call them what they are: they're pussies.

[jgraz]

208. Awesome -- use a vulgar feminizing term to degrade men who don't support gender equality

That's some nice consistency there.

[Heidi]

215. On this we can agree, jgraz.

That word, used to describe anything besides felines, is also against the DU Rules.

[Heidi]

217. This is a polite reminder:

Use of the p-word to describe anything besides felines is not only against the DU rules, but offensive as well.

[jgraz]

201. How nice to boil a complex issue like this down to a bumper sticker

Do you really think that's what she's teaching her daughters? That it's their body and their choice? Do you really think that any of the girls in that family feel they have complete reproductive freedom?

This is simple slavery through breeding, both to the mother and to the young girls who a tasked with raising the next vaginal discharge.

[Heidi]

207. How nice to boil it all down to an insult to women's intelligence

by implying that a woman's upbringing predetermines all of her future choices. Do you ever even read posts by the countless DU women who have overcome religious extremist upbringings and other adversities and gone on to become successful, well-adjusted, self-determined, progressive human beings? There's a very good chance that the Duggar girls will learn something from their mother's experience.

"Vaginal discharge"? That's almost as classy as the posts speculating on the size of Mrs. Duggar's vagina.

[jgraz]

211. Of course, it's all about the gender of the person we're criticizing

That tiny box you live in has gotta cramp a little.

Upbringing often informs future choices, regardless of gender. Yes, some people overcome it but most don't. And the folks that do carry the scars with them for the rest of their lives.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, trying to shame people with bogus cries of "misogyny!" is as bad as trying to scare people by repeating "9/11, 9/11!" It ain't gonna work on me.

[Heidi]

214. Hahahahahahahaha!

Why don't you get to know me before you start supposing about the "tiny box" in which I live? You owe me a cup of coffee, bubba.

[jgraz]

216. Right -- no one should mention tiny boxes on this thread ;)

The problem is that this is not a gender equity question. It's a question of responsible parenting and reasonable use of resources. It's a question of morality and, since they're using it to further a political career (Daddy wants to run for Senate) it's a question of political policy. We all have a right to weigh in on this one.

[Heidi]

218. Well, I'm not big on the whole morality thing.

Morals vary from decade to decade, religion to religion, denomination to denomination. I would agree, though, that the Duggars' decision to have 17 children presents some ethical dilemmas, and I certainly wouldn't vote for Jim Bob Duggar. I agree, too, that we all have a right to weigh in on this issue. It's the personal attacks on Mrs. Duggar in this thread that I find truly disturbing.

[jgraz]

222. I worry about those kids

I think it's pretty improbable that the Duggars have found some as-yet-undiscovered method for raising healthy, well-adjusted children in that large of a family. They seem oblivious to the problems that such families cause.

I'm also betting that neither parent is prepared for the likely eventuality of having at least one (more likely two) of their children "choose" (using the XTian POV) to be gay. That's gonna be a laugh riot.

[Heidi]

224. Those kids will need plenty of nonjudgmental friends,

in my opinion. It seems to me that their parents very likely try to limit outside influences, but that rarely works forever.

[jgraz]

219. What do you think of this example?

Let's say I want to cheat on my girlfriend. I've decided that, even though I tell her I love her and that she's the only woman for me, I'm going to sleep with at least three other women a week.

My girlfriend is completely devoted to me, even supports me financially, and would be completely destroyed if she discovered my infidelities. But my belief systems tells me that a man must have at least 500 sexual partners before he hits 40, and I'm a good bit off the pace here. So I'm going to sneak off at every opportunity, hook up with whatever woman will have me, and rack up those notches on the bedpost.

Is that still "my body, my choice"? Do you feel you have no right to judge the ethics or morality of how I choose to use my sexual organs in this situation?

[Heidi]

221. Yes, it's still your body and your choice,

and also your consequences when your girlfriend finds about about your deception.

P.S. Use protection!

[jgraz]

223. But, I'm guessing you wouldn't jump in to defend me if someone called me an asshole

My point being that obnoxious behavior can and should be called out, even if it involves sexual or reproductive issues. It should not be legislated against, but that doesn't mean it's above comment.

[Heidi]

225. "Asshole" is a value judgment,

and there are whole histories behind what many of us would call asshole-like behavior. That doesn't excuse the behavior, but it can put it in context. But you can be sure that if I were going to call you an asshole, I'd do it to your face and take my consequences.

Further, if your hypothetical girlfriend were a DU member posting in the Lounge about your assholery, I might ask her, "But he's perfect in all other ways besides the lying, cheating, STDs and jillions of kids you'll be working to help him support if you choose to tolerate this behavior?" That wouldn't necessarily be a defense of you but, rather, a speculation about reality.

Edited for clarity.

[jgraz]

226. Damn, this plan get worse and worse the more I look at it

[Heidi]

227. Here's some free advice from a middle-aged realist:

If you choose to embark upon this misadventure experiment and want to live to tell us all about it, I would suggest you prep your girlfriend like this:

"Honey, I know we've promised to be faithful to one another, but I'm about to embark on an experiment that will involve me banging three other women per week over the near-term, and I just want you to know beforehand that this isn't about you. It's about . . ."

If you have internet access in ICU, come back and tell us about it. Promise?

[calteacherguy]

220. Our planet. nt

[stuntcat]

239. xactly

there's no excusing what they're doing.

[Lasher]

125. Too many people

Running out of room for other things to live.

[Deja Q]

150. Well, they're just trying to make up for the rest of the world that has outpaced us...

We're no longer #1 for lots of things. Including population.

[Orsino]

132. Psst. They aren't gifts from God...

...unless God looks exactly like Jim Bob.

It does appear that Jennifer has a foolproof method for avoiding post-partum depression.

[China_cat]

154. If they really want to see gifts from god

they should both be sterilized. If god really wants them to have that many, a tubal ligation and a vasectomy won't make the slightest bit of difference.

[Left Is Write]

234. Do you mean Michelle? Jennifer is the newest baby.

[Sannum]

139. They haven't figured out how that happens?

[Digit]

162. Pardon me if I don't applaud

I knew before I had my child that the world's resources were being depleted and that was 23 years ago.
I supported her with NO govt assistance and now she has a college education.

I chose one child, other may choose two, three or four, but 17 I have a problem with.

I will choose just not to applaud.

[Seashell Eyes]

163. They should name the next one Jizz.

Or maybe Jizza if it's a girl or Jizziah if it's a boy.

[jgraz]

212. I'd go with JustCuzWeWasBored, JesusChristNotAgain or JerkOffInstead

[Starbucks Anarchist]

231. Or "Jesus Christ, another one?!"

[Seashell Eyes]

233. How about Jimbobneedsahobby?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

235. Yep.

[grace0418]

186. Here's what really surprises me about some of the responses of

"to each his own" and "her body, her choice" ...

If you were to see a family on your street with two kids, a girl of 14 and a 2yr old, and the parents left all the child care and chores to the older child, you'd probably think that was awful, wouldn't you? I'm not talking "Hon, can you clean up your room and set the table for dinner while I feed the baby?" I'm all for children having chores and learning to have responsibility. No, I'm talking cooking, cleaning, laundry, and a vast majority of the younger sibling's daily care would be on the shoulders of the older sister while the parents were otherwise occupied. Would you honestly think that was hunky dorey and say "to each his own"? Or would you think that was a horrible way to treat the older child?

Remember that story of the parents that neglected their two kids while they played online games? If those parents had an older child and forced that older child to take care of the babies while they played games, then all would be okay? Why is it any different that the Duggans seem to spend all their time breeding like rabbits and smiling for all the news stories making them out to be saints?

[Deja Q]

187. Well, we are after all not a society. We're only individual men, women, and families.

Oh, the news media caters to the freaks and oddballs. As with everything else in life, an unusual story brings in more viewers than typical ones... It's second nature to them. Like breathing.

[John Kerry VonErich]

194. OMG

You're comparing apples and oranges. 2 totally different families. I am dead serious when I said if you so believe in what you are describing, and I will keep an open mind, then investigation MUST be made. It is my impression that you and others are accusing, but I could be wrong, the Dugger parents for neglect.

But IMHO, you can have a family as large as you want. We have no China law. And if that is wrong, overtaxing, bad for enviorment, etc, then flood your congressman and senator and call for a population cap.

[Heidi]

209. Mrs. Duggar's choices are not inferior to our own.

It probably makes some of us feel better about ourselves to think that, though.

Are you suggesting that the Duggar children are abused?

By the way, would you support a law capping the number of children a woman can bear?

[grace0418]

236. It's not a matter of "inferior" it's a matter of selfishness and irresponsibility.

If you think I disagree with Mrs. Duggar's choices to feel better about myself, you could not be more wrong. I disagree with them because they are selfish and irresponsible. I disagree with them because I know what it was like for my three oldest sisters to get stuck raising kids instead of having childhoods. I disagree because there is little chance of a child thriving and fully maturing mentally and emotionally with only 1/17 of his or her parents' attention (at best). I disagree because the planet is over burdened as it is, so what makes Mrs. Duggar so fucking special that she can use more than her fair share of its resources? And perhaps most importantly, I disagree because she's choosing to have more children than she can properly raise without forcing other people to help her care for them. Which effectively takes away THE CHOICE her older children have over whether or not they want to be surrogate parents or indentured servants instead of children. Why are the needs and desires and choices of her older children less important than Mrs. Duggar's?

Absolutely I would not support a law limiting the number of children one can have, as I've already said. But I have every right to disagree and speak out about people making terrible, selfish, irresponsible choices. And you know what? Some choices ARE inferior to others. Do you mean to tell me that you don't think a person who stays informed about the world hasn't made a better choice than someone who only watches Fox News? Or that a person who voted for Al Gore didn't make a better choice than a person who voted for Bush? Or that a person who eats right and exercises hasn't made some better choices about their health than someone who eats nothing but fried food and sits on the couch? All of those choices are perfectly legal, and I would never support a law telling someone they can't watch Fox News, or that they must vote for a certain candidate, or that they are required by law to exercise 3x a week. But I can sure as hell think they are idiots for sitting around eating french fries and watching Fox News and sending fan letters to George Bush; and then wondering why they feel like shit and the world is going to hell. And I have every right to say so.

Believe me, it gives me no great pleasure to realize that I know what those kids are going to struggle with, emotionally and mentally, as they get older. I do not revel in the knowledge that they are going to struggle very hard to have any sense of self, any sense that they are more than just *another* of Mrs. Duggar's kids ("Now which one are you again? I can never keep you straight!"). It doesn't make me feel superior, it just makes me sad. And yes, I do think it is a form of abuse to to focus on your own desires and choices at the expense of your children. But as long as the Duggars keep getting tv specials praising how wonderful they are for what they are doing, nobody is going to prosecute them.

[Heidi]

244. No one here has said, and I certainly have not said, you have no right to express your opinion.

However, in this case I seem to hold the unpopular opinion and you're reading something into my posts that I certainly did not say.

By the way, I have liberal family members who believe it's selfish and irresponsible that I haven't popped out two or three little Democrats to gird our party's future during these dark times. They can argue about my selfishness until the cows come home, but I ain't havin' no babies, no way, no how and I don't believe my choice is in any way superior to those of equally committed liberals who have one, two, three, four or even more children. I tend to believe that much of the outcry we've seen in this thread is due to the fact that the Duggars are fundamentalist Christians, and it's why I tend to wonder whether DUers would get equally worked up if Call Me Wesley and I chose to produce 17 little activist, Buddhist liberals. I think that's a valid thing to wonder about. Don't you?

[grace0418]

246. There is something of an implication that my disdain is wrong and I should shut up.

If you weren't implying that, then I accept that at face value and will continue to voice my opinion (well, I would've continued either way ).

I cannot speak for others, but my mother is a somewhat liberal Dem who raised eleven children (all but one of us ended up totally liberal). And despite the fact that I love all my siblings very much, and despite the fact that I am the youngest of the bunch, I still think my mother was wrong and selfish and irresponsible to have more children than any mother and father could possibly handle raising properly.

The fact that the Duggars are fundamentalists just adds another layer of creepiness to the story, but I would be just as appalled no matter who the parents are. Maybe it's different for other people, but not me.

[Katina]

245. excuse me?

there is little chance of a child thriving and fully maturing mentally and emotionally with only 1/17 of his or her parents' attention (at best).

are you serious? Sorry, but I grew up in one of those super large families and I respectfully have to tell you that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. Of course, it must be that I'm too mentally or emotionally immature so I can't possibly understand that your mature & intelligent statements are not just a sanctimonious tirade of bullsh*t.
I grew up being harranged by people like you telling me that my parents were selfish and that I was just another form of pollution. It always shocked me to hear the kind of bile that spewed from the mouths of people claiming to be liberal. Well in my book, liberal also means that while you may not agree with someone else's choices, you also liberal enough to accept a live and let live attitude. So, go in peace but know that just because you think you are right, doesn't mean you are.

[grace0418]

248. You can save your disdain because I grew up in a super huge family too.

I too was "harranged" by people. It's never right to tell people that they are a form of pollution, especially children who have no control over the matter. So you're assumption that I am "one of those people" is completely off-base, sorry. However, I feel it is entirely appropriate to voice disagreement with an ADULT'S choices. "Live and let live" works great until someone who has no choice has to pay the price. You may be thinking of libertarians not liberals, because I believe that people who care about society and the world at large should speak up when they see something bad going on. I also believe that people who care about the world should not overtax its resources if they can help it.

And please notice that I said "little chance" not "no chance". So consider yourself lucky. In my family's parish there were eight families ranging in size from nine to fourteen kids. Two of my brothers even married two sisters from the family of fourteen, so we are all very interconnected. I know for a fact that the kids from all these families dealt with a lot of issues that are the direct result of not having enough individual care and attention from a parent. Most of us turned out fine, some didn't. My siblings are all wonderful, intelligent, creative people. But we all had huge hurdles to cross along the way, and most of us have not crossed them all. You know, plenty of neglected kids turn out fine too, but that doesn't make neglect the right thing to do.

So yeah, I think having too many children is a selfish, irresponsible choice. Even for my parents.

[Katina]

252. coming from a large family doesn't exempt you from being

"one of those people." I have no disdain for you at all, but I do suspect that your obvious anger towards this family has more to do with personal issues of your own than anything else.

As I said, go in peace, I have no wish to get into a pissing match with you. It's obvious from the strident tone of your posts that this is a really sore subject for you. Just know that while your family experience is yours, the experience of others who grow up(grew up) in super large families is different so you can't make such sweeping condemnations and expect them to go unchallenged. My family was far larger (16 kids, 3 of whom died in infancy) than yours so I do know what I'm talking about as well.

[grace0418]

253. Of course my personal experience colors it, everyone's personal experience

colors their reaction.

It's not a sweeping condemnation to say that having too many children overtaxes the planet. Too many humans ARE overtaxing the planet, unless you believe global warming isn't real. As for whether or not having too many kids increases the chance that the kids will not get enough attention, I don't see that being sweeping either. Just because some large families turn out fine doesn't change the fact that there is that increased risk involved. Most women try to avoid preventable risks to the well-being of their children. The combined issue is that having a huge family in this day and age not only poses risks to the children but also overtaxes the planet. I have a problem with that and will continue to do so.

P.S. You say you don't want to get into a pissing match and yet you make sure to point out that your family is larger than mine. I think once you get into double-digits it hardly matters anymore. And, again, I'm not "one of those" as you say because I have never told a child they are pollution or that their mother is an irresponsible twit. It's not the kid's fault. They already have enough to deal with.

[cynatnite]

232. My mom grew up with five sibs and the older ones...

They did do a good chunk of the daily care for the younger ones. Not much choice in the matter. My grandmother was divorced and working. Everyone worked their fair share.

[grace0418]

238. Well sure, life does stick some people with circumstances that are beyond their

control. I'm sure if your grandmother wasn't divorced and working, she would've been able to carry more of the load that was taken on by the older kids in the family. Happens all the time. It's not ideal but that's how we get by, and life isn't always fair.

But, unless I'm wrong, I'm guessing your grandmother didn't choose for circumstances to play out that way. And at least she didn't say to herself "Well, this is great! The older kids can buddy up with the younger ones and all I have to do is keep popping them out! Fantastic, I think I'll have TWELVE more!"

[stuntcat]

195. I wrote them today

I got an article about them from one of my Yahoo groups.
The family's site has an email address so I wrote asking the parents what they think has happened to the 90,000 (so far, probably more like 200,000 before they finish) diapers they've used. And I asked them if they thought much about the year 2090 that they're gifting to their most recent.
The stuff this family consumes in their lives is more than whole towns consume in some of the world.

This is something I'm judgmental about and I am not sorry, fight me if you must but they're just being greedy. I'm sure God appreciates the way they live and how they're trashing the world he gave us.

I bet I won't hear back

[stuntcat]

196. 90,000 diapers (so far..)

and they think they aren't taxing our one planet..

well I've always though our education system needed an overhaul.

[dropkickpa]

197. new pic!!

Do I detect a bit of "Oh jesus fuck, great, now I'll have another "buddy"!!" on the girl to the far left's face?

[grace0418]

241. Absolutely, and if she's anything like my oldest sister, she's

going to marry the first guy she can get her hands on, way too young, to escape the madness.

[skygazer]

243. Are those name tags they're wearing

Mom's saying, "And which one are you?"

[grace0418]

250. They'd have to wear name tags.

My mother called me, on average, five different names before she got the right one. It takes too long to cycle through 10 names or more.

[Left Is Write]

255. I call my kids the wrong names all the time, and I only have three!

[calteacherguy]

203. Sickening. Stupid. Immoral. Earth-killing. Morons. nt

[Deja Q]

240. You keep their religion out of this!

Wait, you said "Moron". Not "Mormon". My wrong!

[billyskank]

210. And I thought I was sex mad

[WildEyedLiberal]

213. "God Does Not Want 16 Kids"

Who are you to judge? Who are you to say that the more than slightly creepy 39-year-old woman from Arkansas who just gave birth to her 16th child yes that's right 16 kids and try not to cringe in phantom vaginal pain when you say it, who are you to say Michelle Duggar is not more than a little unhinged and sad and lost?

And furthermore, who are you to suggest that her equally troubling husband -- whose name is, of course, Jim Bob and he's hankerin' to be a Republican senator and try not to wince in sociopolitical pain when you say that -- isn't more than a little numb to the real world, and that bringing 16 hungry mewling attention-deprived kids (and she wants more! Yay!) into this exhausted world zips right by "touching" and races right past "disturbing" and lurches its way, heaving and gasping and sweating from the karmic armpits, straight into "Oh my God, what the hell is wrong with you people?"

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archiv...

THANK YOU Mark Morford for succinctly stating why I am alternately creeped out/repulsed by this "wholesome Christian" family.

[grace0418]

251. Fucking brilliant.

Thank you!

[Dragonbreathp9d]

228. Jim Bob? Seriously?

omfglmao


jesus christ, all beginning with J? Gaaa! Why do the idiots have the most kids?

[Myrina]

230. Welfare? Reduced lunches? Medicare?

... why - unless they're an independently wealthy couple - is nobody screaming about them abusing the system?


These people are sociopathic -- one of these days she's gonna wake up with a note from her uterus pinned to the pillow, saying 'I Quit'.

[grace0418]

237. Why?

Because apparently it's "her body and her choice" and "to each his own." And any problem anyone might have with her choice means that you are advocating a family size cap law like in China.

[LanternWaste]

249. It's tough, isn't it...?

It's tough, isn't it...?

If we want to maintain intellectual and moral honesty regarding the choice issue, we are forced to defend her decision to have (or not have) children, regardless of difference in degree and amount.

But I can see more than one argument here-- the argument for choice which I'm sure we all agree on, and another, wholly separate argument with regards to effective stewardship of the planet, minimal use of resources, et.al.

Yet if there are two or more issues at stake here, then comes the dreaded decision we have to make (on a moral level for the individual and on a legal level for the state)-- Which issue carries more weight? The choice to have (or not have) children, or the responsibility we have towards the environment.

It's simply one of those ethical cases that would have my head spinning before too long.

[MissMillie]

247. that pic only has 14 kids in it

they need to update their family photo, but I'm betting a wide angle lens isn't in the budget.

[jgraz]

254. No, that's correct

They eat the ones who don't look quite right.

[MrSlayer]

256. Good for them.

If they can afford it and that's what they want, go to it. Certainly not my cup of tea.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

259. She must have a wide wheelbase.

If she had a narrow ass, and had to have a C-section, there is no way she could have gone through 17 C-sections. That's major abdominal surgery.

I think they're sick.