Who gets your vote for best MLB player ever?

[bertha katzenengel]

The challenge here is to try to name someone who did well by his team -- not just someone who compiled amazing stats.

Start from 1869, the year of the first all-pro baseball team, the Cincinatti Red Stockings. George Wright is a prime candidate.

[masshole]

1. Never got the recognition due him until he died

Roberto Clemente

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. Sucks that he played his entire career for a small-market ball club

Clemente and Mays are the two guys I'd pay to go to a ball game just to watch them. Hell, I'd pay just to watch 'em run the bases or chase after a fly ball.

[Drum]

13. Where I grew up,

(and in the 60s/70s) the Pirates were the closest baseball team to me and the only one whose broadcasts we could get. It was during the Clemente times, and so very cool to behold yes indeed. The man was truly great.

[cloudbase]

2. I'll go with

Roberto Clemente.

[Richardo]

3. You guys took my answer.

Clemente was often criticized for swinging at bad pitches. His response: "If I hit it, it's not a bad pitch."
Lifetime .317 average. 3000 hits. Was the core of the Bucs for 15 years.

[cloudbase]

59. I grew up about a five minute walk

from Forbes Field, and in those days you could get a bleacher seat for $1 (That's not a typo!) and then go sneak into the better seats. I've got years of great memories of those days. It was never the same for me after the move to Three Rivers Stadium. I left the 'burgh shortly after that for college and never went back.

[mitchum]

64. I 'll also go with Roberto Clemente (n/t)

[Oeditpus Rex]

4. Mays (n/t)

[BlooInBloo]

24. Do anyone's overall numbers even come close to matching Mays'?

3rd total bases (6,066)
4th home runs (660)
9th total hits (3283)
1st player with 500 home runs and 3000 hits
2 MVPs
11 Gold Gloves
24 All-Star appearances
.302 lifetime batting average
150+ games for 13 consecutive years

[Oeditpus Rex]

36. When you look at the whole package

I don't think you'll find anyone better. He was the first, really, of the "full house" ballplayers — hit for average, hit for power, run, field, throw. He could be in the worst batting slump in history (and Mays was famous for them) and you'd still want him in your lineup because he often meant fewer runs for the other guys because of his fielding.

Consider, too, that he likely would've been the first to pass Ruth in homers if he hadn't played his first six seasons in the Polo Grounds with its 490-foot center field (Mays didn't hit homers to any particular field) and his next 13 in Candlestick Park, where that dogawful wind blew in from the bay.

Also, considering that he frequently had power hitters like McCovey and Cepeda hitting behind him, he got probably half the stolen bases he would've had with a hit-and-run club.

[BlooInBloo]

39. And considering the average MLB career is under 6 years, 24 All-Stars is just sick.

[Oeditpus Rex]

42. Yeah, and he usually played the whole game

They were talking about that during the recent All-Star Game. What was it, one of the '62 games that went 15 innings? He played the whole thing.

[northzax]

73. considering that he only played 22 years

24 all star games is even more impressive! Remember, in '59. '60, '61 and '62, there were two all star games each year, he played in both. so that's 8 all start games in 4 years.

And the only person with offensive states to match Willie is Barry Bonds.

[pinniped]

56. Willie Mays would also have more HRs if he didn't get drafted into the service.

.

[Oeditpus Rex]

61. You could say that about a lotta guys, though

Mays probably would've hit 700 homers had he not been called up. He played only about 30 games in 1952 and missed '53 altogether.

Funny thing, though — know what he did in the Army? Played baseball. :crazy:

Look at guys like Ted Williams and Hank Greenberg, though. Williams missed the '43, '44 and '45 seasons to WWII and almost all of '52 and most of '53 to Korea, so figure that cost him 150 homers (he hit 521). Greenberg missed most of '41, all of '42, '43 and '44 and half of '45, so he might've gotten 500 (he hit 331).

[ccjlld]

104. Why does everyone always leave out Stan Musial?

2nd total bases (6134)
Ok, he loses the Home Runs to Willie (he only has 475)
4th total hits (3630)
1st player with 400 home runs and 3000 hits
3 MVPs
(ok, so no Gold Gloves)
24 All-Star Appearances
.330 lifetime batting average
140+ games for 14 consecutive years

A couple of other stats

Career RBI's Stan - 1951 Willie - 1903
On base % Stan - .416 Willie - .383
WS championships Stan - 3 Willie - 1

Stan also has the following stats

Led the league in Batting Average - 7 times
Led the league in On Base % - 6 times
Led the league in Slugging % - 6 times
Led the league in Runs - 5 times
Led the league in Hits - 6 times
Led the league in Total bases - 6 times
Led the league in Doubles - 8 times
Led the league in Triples - 5 times
Led the league in Runs created - 9 times

Also played his whole career for St. Louis.

It's not that I want to try to take away anything from Willie. In my opinion, he was one of the best of all times, an absolutely amazing player! However, I honestly think that if Stan Musial had played on the East Coast or the West Coast instead of St. Louis, he would be thought of as one of the best instead of everyone forgetting him.

[Oeditpus Rex]

126. Yup

How good you are frequently depends on where you are.

[Reverend_Smitty]

5. Hard to deny that Babe Ruth wasn't the nucleus of his team...

Hell, Yankee Stadium was the house that Ruth built...besides compiling amazing stats the Yankees won World Series Championships in 23, 27, 28 and 32 not to mention leading the Red Sox to victory in 1918...plus he was a fine pitcher in his own right.

You can make a good case for Willie Mays who could hit and field just about as well as anyone who put on a uniform.

How about Cy Young who did well by his team 511 times?

Maybe Ty Cobb or even Walter Johnson who was the only thing the pitiful Washington Senators had going for them at the time

[Oeditpus Rex]

6. Look at Ruth's ball club

The Yankees' typical lineup in 1927:

Earle Combs cf — lifetime .325; Hall of Fame
Mark Koenig ss — lifetime .279
Babe Ruth rf — lifetime .342, 714, 2,213; Hall of Fame
Lou Gehrig 1b — lifetime .340, 493, 1,995; Hall of Fame
Bob Meusel lf — lifetime .309, 156, 1,067
Tony Lazzeri 2b — lifetime .292, 178, 1,191; Hall of Fame
Joe Dugan 3b — lifetime .280
Pat Collins c — lifetime .254

Nucleus, yeah. But a lineup like that had a helluva lotta neutrons.

Now, I'm not about to take a single thing away from Ruth. For pure hitting (power + average), he was probably the best ever. But the thing you've gotta remember about guys like Ruth and Gehrig and DiMaggio and Mantle is they all played for the greatest dynasty in the history of professional sport (though it can certainly also be argued that Ruth began that dynasty) and they also played in New York, which has always had much more media than any other U.S. city. Put those factors together — championship after championship plus tons of exposure — then add the magic of folklore, and reputations might tend to be a tad bigger than reality.

Oh, and BTW — the Dodgers are getting mashed by the Phillies, so GO METS! :D

[Reverend_Smitty]

15. It's so hard to pick a greatest ever...

with 130+ years of history how can anyone compare players from the various eras of the game? The changes in equipment, rules, expansion of the leagues all add to the complexities of picking the best, not to mention the scores of players that were excluded because of race...but it doesn't stop people from debating this question and really it's what makes it so much fun.

[Oeditpus Rex]

17. Yup

I can talk about it for hours on end. :D

There really is no way to truly evaluate ballplayers across generations, despite what the SABR geeks believe, because there are factors that defy the application of stats. One that's not often considered is the schedule. In the old days, before airplane travel was commonplace, home stands often lasted two weeks and were followed by a road trip just as long. Plus, travel was by train, and the leagues ran geographically only from Boston to St. Louis; it was completely a northeastern game. Both those factors would seem to be of advantage to players — but we weren't there, so how do we know?

So when I vote for Mays as the best, that's with the footnote that he was the best of those of whom I have more than anecdotal knowledge. There are many others I never saw or read about in the papers every day, so I don't feel I can evaluate them as well as those I did.

I'll even argue the race thing: How do we know the "banned" black players were better? Almost all of what we know about them is purely anecdotal, since almost no Negro League records exist. So when somebody argues that Ruth never had to hit against Satchel Paige or Josh Gibson didn't get to hit Major League pitching, I say, "How do you know they would've excelled in "white" baseball?"

(I put "banned" in quotes because there was never an official ban. There was, however, collusion.)

[BrotherBuzz]

22. You can also toss in the Pacific Coast League, 'the third league', to liven the debate

PCL had a lot of talent that never got truly recognized. Genuine Journeymen players, the lot.

Oh, my vote goes for Willie Mays, too. But you already knew that.;)

[Oeditpus Rex]

25. You must be talking about Steve Bilko

He had a couple of good years in the majors, but that dude owned the PCL for awhile. :D

[BrotherBuzz]

35. There are a thousand of untold stories

The small one I know of were the Rohwer brothers, all four of them, two played in the east for awhile, but they mostly played in the PCL. Otto even played ball in Japan before the war.


I knew Otto Rohwer, so I read his oral history and gleaned this little tidbit:

"Ray was an engineer by profession although he, being a good baseball player, left college to play for Pittsburgh for 2 years and then to Seattle in the coast league and finally Sacramento in the coast league. Ray was a very good left handed hitter, far as I’m concerned set a record that I’ve never heard anybody come close to equaling. In 1927 in May playing for Seattle in San Francisco, he had 28 base hits in one week."

[Oeditpus Rex]

38. I never even heard of those guys

My knowledge of the PCL is limited to its gods from the Bay Area — guys like Lefty O'Doul, Ernie Lombardi and the DiMaggio brothers. :blush:

[BrotherBuzz]

46. They were everywhere. My accountant and drinking buddy's father pitched for the Oakland Oaks...

until his shoulder blew up. I didn't even know this until I was in his dinning room and spotted the baseball, an official 'Pacific Coast League' ball. My buddy went on to explain how his father was a promising pitcher for the Oaks until he blew his rotator cup, retired, and went back to engineering school in the late thirties.

My point is there was a huge collection of very good players on the west coast that nobody ever heard about. Lefty O'Doul, Ernie Lombardi, and the DiMaggio brothers, were the exceptions.

[Oeditpus Rex]

48. I've heard a few stories

Supposedly, the old PCL was the high point of Triple-A ball, back before the majors and minors were affiliated. (But I suspect they were, unofficially — or else the Yankees the market cornered on scouting in the Bay Area, since so many of those guys seemed to wind up with them.)

I love hearing stories like that — like how Yogi Berra and Joe Garagiola were signed off the sandlots on Dago Hill in St. Louis. :D

[jmm]

115. At the same time can we ever know how great the white players

who weren't "banned" were since the group they competed against was limited. For a while the Negro Leagues were very profitable and full of talent. Integrating baseball wasn't just the morally right thing to do. It brought in new talent, a bigger audience, led to the demise of it's competition, and helped business. Just like it can be asked how do you know Josh Gibson would've excelled in "white" baseball how do you know Ruth would've done in the Negro Leagues?

[BlooInBloo]

8. Willie Mays.

[Omphaloskepsis]

9. Mario Mendoza

[Reverend_Smitty]

21. I'll take your Mario Mendoza and raise you one Marv Throneberry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marv_Throneberry

[Oeditpus Rex]

33. Hey, hey, hey!

Marv had two things goin' for him: He could hit the living snot out of a baseball, and Mets fans absolutely adored him. :D

[Reverend_Smitty]

47. Now if he could only remember how to run the bases properly we might be on to something

another favorite 62 Met was Choo-Choo Coleman who when asked by Ralph Kiner "What's your wife's name and what's she like?" he responded with "Her name is Mrs. Coleman and she likes me" :rofl: how can you not like a guy like that? Of course Choo-Choo was the replacement for Harry Chiti the only player to ever be traded for himself :rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. Okay, *that* one I haven't heard

I remember Chiti only as a coach. How'd he come to be traded for himself?

Got another one about Marv: One time Stengel sat him down because of his fielding, but he won the game with a pinch-hit homer in the ninth. The fans went nuts and were calling his name, but he'd already gone to the clubhouse. So he came out for a curtain call — in his underwear.

:rofl:

[Reverend_Smitty]

50. Bad teams these days lack the characters of the early Mets teams

It's easy to suck but it takes a certain kind of talent to suck with such style.

Here's the Harry Chiti story...

On April 25, 1962, Chiti was purchased by the expansion New York Mets from the Cleveland Indians for a player to be named later. That "player to be named later" ended up being Harry Chiti, arranged to be sent back to the Indians on June 15, 1962.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Chiti

he was so bad that they actually sent him back :rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

52. OMD, how embarrassing!

:rofl:

Baseball-reference.com is a bit more succinct, and thus more polite:


April 26, 1962: Purchased by the New York Mets from the Cleveland Indians.

June 15, 1962: Returned to the Cleveland Indians by the New York Mets following previous purchase.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chitiha01.shtml


Now I shall tell you of one of the biggest (literally) trades in baseball history:


Joe Garagiola

June 4, 1953: Traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates with Ralph Kiner, Catfish Metkovich, and Howie Pollet to the Chicago Cubs for Toby Atwell, Bob Schultz, Preston Ward, George Freese, Bob Addis, Gene Hermanski, and $150,000.


And somebody — I wish I could remember who — was traded during the first game of a doubleheader. He played the first game for one club and the second for the other. :D

[Reverend_Smitty]

54. Here it is...

Traded during a doubleheader 1922

On May 30, the Cubs and Cardinals swapped outfielders between games of a twin bill against each other, Chicago sending Max Flack to the Cardinals for Cliff Heathcote. Both had gone hitless in the first game. In the nightcap, Flack, now a Cardinal, went 1-for-4. Heathcote, now a Cub, went 2-for-4. The pair became the first major leaguers to play for two teams on the same day.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/271626_s2dbarter25.html

[Oeditpus Rex]

55. Hey, I know this guy!

They got his name wrong, though. It's Tim, not Tom.


Traded for 12 dozen baseballs 1989

Tom Fortugno pitched for 15 pro teams during his career, among them six major league clubs. He is most remembered for a transaction in which his Reno minor league team sold him to Stockton for 12 dozen baseballs and $2,500.


He pitched for Salinas (Cal League) in — must've been 1986. I remember him because he was a ringer for Bruce Springsteen, which gave me the idea to do a poster of him like Springsteen at the end of the "Born in the USA" video, with the cap in his back pocket. I went to the GM with the idea and told him I'd shoot the photo and we could put the posters in stores and have a poster night. He said, "Sounds great! Go out and get a sponsor for it!"

That ended that. :(


Just found this photo. You can't really see the resemblance here, so just trust me.





Trivia I found in the search: George Brett got his 3,000th hit off Fortugno.

[SoxFan]

67. Wonder if the Reds would take Willy Moe Pena

Maybe Theo saved the receipt...

[CatholicEdHead]

10. Kirby Puckett

[Drum]

11. Got a lotta love for Cal Ripkin Jr.

I just love the work-ethic! And, yes, we can all consider me pretty ignorant of most arguments relevant facts. :)

[Ptah]

12. My first thought is Yogi Berra, and I don't know why.

:shrug:

[SaveElmer]

14. Well if you include the Negro Leagues...Satchel Paige or Josh Gibson...MLB only...

You can't think of baseball without thinking of Babe Ruth...

Props to Lou Gehrig and Willie Mays...also deserve consideration...

[Oeditpus Rex]

18. See my post #17

How do we really know how good the Negro Leaguers were? Virtually everything we know about them is anecdotal, since there are almost no surviving records.

[SaveElmer]

20. There is quite a bit of that though...

And there are some extant records...also the statements of MLB'ers like Ruth who played against them on barnstorming tours during the offseason...

Sporting News put Paige as the 19th best player of all time...

[Oeditpus Rex]

28. Quoting from negroleaguebaseball.com

(with my emphasis)

Though records are incomplete, Paige is often credited with having recorded more than 300 career shutouts -- not wins, shutouts! His career win total is estimated at well over 1500 games, a figure which includes virtually countless appearances in exhibition games against all levels of competition both in the United States and south of the border.

Nobody's saying those guys weren't truly outstanding ballplayers. My point is, they just can't be accurately or objectively evaluated.

[SaveElmer]

29. Well its just a thread on a chat board...

I actually did a grad paper on the attempts to integrate baseball in the 1930's...so read quite a bit about it. Reading through those accounts, its hard to come away without thinking that the stats quoted for Negro League players was more often underestimated rather than the obverse, by MLB owners trying to maintain the charade that black players couldn't match MLB talent...

So its just an opinion...looking at all these accounts, looking at what stats do exist, the opinions of scholars that have taken a look at it, and anecdotal evidence from both black and white players...I think a legitimate case can be made for both Paige and Gibson as the best player of all time...

Check out the bio on Gibson from ESPN

Gibson is often referred to as the black Babe Ruth for his ability to hit tape-measure homers, and he also hit for incredibly high averages.

"He hits the ball a mile," Hall of Famer Walter Johnson, the Washington Senators pitcher who won 416 games, said of Gibson.

Satchel Paige, who was Gibson's teammate on the Pittsburgh Crawfords and later pitched for the Cleveland Indians, said, "He was the greatest hitter who ever lived."

In various publications, the 6-foot-1, 215-pounder has been credited with as many as 84 homers in one season. His Hall of Fame plaque says he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career. His lifetime batting average was higher than .350, with one book putting it at .384, best in Negro League history.

It was reported that he won nine home-run titles and four batting championships playing for the Crawfords and the Homestead Grays. In two seasons in the late 1930s, it was written that not only did he hit higher than .400, but his slugging percentage was above 1.000.

Belting home runs of more than 500 feet was not unusual for Gibson....

[Oeditpus Rex]

31. I could dissect all those points

...but then, I could do the same for a lotta players. It's like we were saying a few posts ago: There are so many variables and so little real objectivity that you could "make a case" for a hundred guys.

There's been a lotta greatness in baseball, and that's one of the best things about it — there's always something to argue. :D

[HuskerDU]

16. I vote for Babe Ruth.

He was the ultimate masher, and he could pitch if needed.

[swag]

19. Del Unser

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Unser

[Oeditpus Rex]

26. Why not Johnny Callison?

:D

[swag]

30. Sam Alito should take all questions more (or less?) serioiusly.

[rockymountaindem]

23. Willie Mays

While he might not have a big record like Bonds, Aaron, Ripkin or DiMaggio, I think he was probably the best all-around player.

[Blue-Jay]

27. I don't know about "best", but my favorite has always been Johnny Bench.

I guess one could argue that he was the "best" all-around catcher that has played in the past 40 years or so, but there are other guys who could easily fit that same description.

There are lots of guys who you could say are the "best" depending on your criteria. It's like asking who is the best guitar player.

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. Ronnie Montrose

:7



Oh... and Bill Dickey. :)

[Blue-Jay]

34. Pull the other leg and I'll fart rainbows.

I know that you want to have a 3-way with Ron Cey and Davie Lopes.

[Oeditpus Rex]

40. Bah!

Steve Yeager and Andy Messersmith, maybe. :D

[Strawman]

37. Chet Lemon

[Oeditpus Rex]

41. Ron LeFlore

[Strawman]

43. The Ron Leflore Story starring Levar Burton

one of the all time best made for TV movies

[flvegan]

44. Yaz.

Red Sox. THE MAN.

My last hope for MLB.

[MissMillie]

62. Yeah.... I'll buy this choice

:thumbsup:

[leftofthedial]

45. Honus Wagner

[Oeditpus Rex]

53. A very viable argument

:thumbsup:

[Tektonik]

51. Barry Bonds

kills me to say as a Dodger fan, but I'd say it's Bonds even w/ the steroids (hell if he didn't do 'em, would he have been in better shape the past couple years and broken the HR record anyhow? :shrug: )

I'd say Mays second, then Rose, then Ruth

but tbh, they're all great and hard to rank since they're all from different eras

[ellisonz]

58. Blasphemy!

[ellisonz]

57. Roy Campanella.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Campanella#Major_League

[av8rdave]

60. Cal Ripkin

[BOSSHOG]

63. Mike Schmidt - No doubt the greatest third basemen of all time

Did well by his team?? He only played for one, the Phillies who have the most hard to please fans of any American Team in any sport; and surely he could have gone elsewhere but he stood by his team. World Series Champ, homerun champ, League and Series MVP; 548 steroid free home runs. All Star third baseman. First Ballot Hall of Fame Inductee 17 years ago this month.

An incredible subjective question impossible to come to a consensus, but I proudly cast my vote.

Oh and did I mention he played in the far superior league in the 70's and 80's?

[Oeditpus Rex]

77. No doubt?

That rather disses Jimmy Collins, Eddie Matthews, Brooks Robinson and George Brett. :shrug:

[BOSSHOG]

79. Surely there is a point!!!

If one were to say Brooks was the best would that not "diss" Schmidt? And I believe Mike was better then the four you list. And I also know there is no right answer to such a question and I know that its so easy stirring the pot in a sports related forum (I know this is not the sports related forum.) Looking at the record I have every confidence in my nominee. I'll stick with Number 20 until someone comes forth and changes my mind. Probably hasn't been born yet.

[Oeditpus Rex]

81. Sure — that's why we have these arguments

"My guy's better than your guy. Make your case."

You're right — there's no "right" answer. And that's what makes it fun. :bounce:

[BOSSHOG]

96. Greatest Baseball Team Ever?

The 29 Athletics. No Contest.

[Oeditpus Rex]

97. Hey, start your own thread!

'27 Yankees. :P

[LSK]

65. Lou Gehrig or Shoeless Joe

[SoxFan]

66. Teddy Ballgame

The one and only Ted Williams


Honorable Mention goes to Walter Johnson, the most dominating pitcher of the first half of the 20th century. Amazingly, even in his current condition, he has a better arm than anyone in the current Nats rotation...

[Debi]

68. Well, if we were voting solely on hottness

Mike Piazza



After that I know nothing :shrug:

[SoxFan]

70. Not El Guapo?

The one and only Rich Garces?

[Debi]

72. there's just something about Piazza that makes me go

Mmmmmmmmmmmm :evilgrin:

http://www.sdhoc.com/main/articles/padres/Piazzapadres/Image00094416

[LynneSin]

69. Davey Concepcion and Barry Larkin

nuff said!

[Burma Jones]

71. Don't overlook Tony Gwynn of the Padres

A Player so Great, he could be truly Humble.

[soleft]

74. Where have you gone Joe DiMaggio?

Woo ooo ooo.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

75. Put me down for Mays.

The most complete player there ever was.

[guitar man]

76. Mickey Mantle nt

[Oeditpus Rex]

84. Oh, that the Mick had had healthy legs

and less of a fondness for alcohol. There's no doubt in my mind that he would've been the best ever.

[underpants]

78. Pete Rose

Should be in the Hall of Fame.

[Oeditpus Rex]

83. Damned skippy

[JVS]

101. No he shouldn't. His banning must be upheld forever!

[Oeditpus Rex]

110. He's banned from baseball, not the Hall

The two are not connected.

[JVS]

116. Isn't it policy of the hall not to accept banned players though?

Fuck him. He deserves to die penniless and insane and never be in the HOF

[Oeditpus Rex]

122. I don't know the Hall's policy

I do know there's one player — Buck Weaver of the 1919 "Black Sox" — who was banned from baseball not for being part of the fix, but for not ratting out those who were. That's equivalent to a worker being fired for refusing to cross a picket line.

But, no — Rose deserves no such thing. I won't argue that his status deserves reinstatement by Major League Baseball, but I see nothing wrong with his accomplishments being noted in a Hall of Fame exhibit, along with his transgressions.

[gmoney]

111. Yes... it's the ONLY deterrent left.

If players know a "lifetime" ban only means 20 years, they'll be throwing games left and right and doing all kinds of crazy shit for a quick buck. The only thing that can trump their greed is their ego, which might keep them from doing something that will keep them out of the HOF.

Re-instate Rose and MLB becomes WWE wrasslin'.

[Oeditpus Rex]

121. By that logic

about 99.9 percent of ballplayers would be gambling — those who have zero chance of being elected to the Hall in the first place.

[gmoney]

124. how do we know they aren't?

those 99.9% need the steady paycheck and can't risk getting caught (see Rod Tidwell from the documentary Jerry MacGuire) ;)

Fine, let Pete in... hell, make him commissioner! You'll be sanctioning gambling...

[Oeditpus Rex]

125. How do we know they aren't all on steroids?

Or (gasp!) meth?!

How do we know they aren't ALIENS?!? STEROID-SHOOTIN', METH-SMOKIN', BET-MAKIN', BASEBALL-DESTROYIN' ALIENS?!?!111 :scared:



:eyes:

[gmoney]

127. OMG yes...

You're right! MLB is nothing but a bunch of STEROID-SHOOTIN', METH-SMOKIN', BET-MAKIN', BASEBALL-DESTROYIN' ALIENS!!!

It all makes sense to me now... thanks for the heads up.

[HuskerDU]

80. I say y'all are crazy. Babe Ruth all the way!

Did Ruth do well by his team? Well, his arrival in NYC started the greatest dynasty in pro sports. Winning is what it's all about. (please spare me the jokes about what a Cub fan knows about winning!)

Did Ruth compile amazing stats? Yes, some of the most amazing in baseball history, including hitting well over twice as many homers as the next best guy one year. He was a winner AND had the numbers. Nobody dominated his era like Ruth.

Who else could pitch? No position players I've seen in this thread. Ruth was the best left-handed pitcher of his era and still holds a WS pitching record for lefties. That has to be a factor. The guy was a dominating pitcher and even more dominating hitter.

I hate the Yankees and wish I could argue for someone like Mays. But Ruth could hit circles around Mays and the fact that Mays was a great CFer (premium defensive position) doesn't come close to making up for all of the extra runs Ruth created. Ruth was no butcher in the field either. As a great pitcher, he had a great arm. And he had great wheels for someone of his body type.

Ruth wasn't just the greatest baseball player of all time, he was the greatest player in team sports history IMO. He dominated baseball like Bob Wills dominated Western Swing. If you know of one baseball player, it is probably Babe Ruth many many many decades after he died.

[Oeditpus Rex]

82. It's hard to argue with you

But see my response to you in the thread about pitchers. I stubbornly maintain Mays was the best all-around player ever.

Part of the reason, though, that Ruth is more identified with baseball than any other player even 70-plus years after he retired is that the New York media and others helped make him larger than life. (For example, the "called shot" in the '32 World Series — pure fable.) There may be some argument about his stature as a ballplayer, but it's difficult to argue that he's the most hallowed athlete in sports history, and thus the best-known. And that, a la Michael Jordan, goes a long way toward perhaps making someone seem even greater than he was.

(A non-sports example, but still applicable: Amelia Earhart wasn't a very good pilot.)

[HuskerDU]

87. I still think that if you strip away the hype and take a sober look

at the numbers, Ruth was the greatest. Fantastical tales about George Washington don't take away his accomplishments and importance.

[Oeditpus Rex]

89. It's an extremely valid argument

I think the strongest point for Ruth is his batting average — .342 to Mays' .302. To hit .342 over 22 years is just undogly (so let's not even talk about Ty Cobb's .366 or Rogers Hornsby's .358 or Joe Jackson's .356).

I have to rate them pretty much evenly on homers, even though Ruth hit 54 more than Mays. But Ruth hit most of his in a yard built for his power, whereas Mays played most of his career in a yard whose wind took homers away, especially from right-handers. OTOH, Mays had about 3,000 more at-bats than Ruth.

Fielding, it's no contest. But you've gotta give props to Ruth for his pitching.

:shrug:

[HuskerDU]

91. How about Ruth's career .690 slugging percentage?

You have to give the power edge to Ruth. He single handedly ended the dead ball era. Before Ruth, in a typical year, a guy named 'Home Run' Baker would lead the league in hrs with like 8.

I'll have to look up Mays' slugging %. The yards they played in are a factor too of course.

[Oeditpus Rex]

92. Mmmm... not single-handedly

He was the "lively ball" era's premier exponent, of course, and he likely had a lot to do with the change in how balls were made in the first place, since he ushered in homer mania, which proved to be very good for gate receipts (and the reason Yankee Stadium is called "The House that Ruth Built").

But a lot of that, too, was the outlawing of the spitter in 1920 — not that it went away (in fact, there were like six guys who were allowed to keep throwing it, since it was their no. 1 pitch and to stop them from throwing it would've effectively ended their careers), but it sure went underground, so hitters saw a helluva lot more pitches that they could hit.

[HuskerDU]

99. Consider the year 1919. Ruth led the AL with 29 homers.

Three guys tied for second with 10. He may not have single-handedly ended the dead ball era (guilty of a little hyperbole) but he sure embodied it's demise.

Plus, Ruth's .690 slugging % dwarves Mays' .557. I wouldn't call power or hrs a wash between the two.

[Oeditpus Rex]

100. Like I said, y'gotta consider where they played

Yankee Stadium was built to Ruth's power. Candlestick Park was built against Mays'.

Let's consider something else about eras, too: None other than Ty Cobb said Mays "restored the art of base-running to the game." Yeah, running the bases isn't as dramatic or as visible as hitting homers, but it produces one helluva lotta runs. (Cobb didn't mean base-stealing so much as base-running, which is vastly overlooked as an offensive tactic.)

[HuskerDU]

103. If their slugging percentages were anywhere near close I would

agree. But since they both played on the road, the over .130 difference in slugging is too significant. I'd bet that if you looked strictly at road slugging %, Ruth's would still be significantly higher. And certainly, when you compare era's, nobody came close to Ruth in his. Will anybody EVER hit over twice as many HRS as the next best guy again?

As far as running the bases, Ruth stole over 100 bases in his career, and he scored runs at a higher clip than Willie. The most runs Mays ever scored in one year is 130, Ruth scored 177 in his best year, and had many many years that he scored well over 130. It didn't hurt to have Lou hitting behind him, but Willie had McCovey did he not? Ruth was a pretty good base runner too.

[Oeditpus Rex]

105. Yeah, it's a big difference

Particularly when you add Ruth's edge in batting average and slugging average, it's obvious he was more of an offensive threat than Mays. But my primary point through all of this is there's a lot more to baseball, and to the consideration of a ballplayer's greatness, than how far he can hit 'em.

Yeah, Ruth could run the bases, especially before he discovered the Good Life and put on a few pounds. (Kinda hard to believe with those baby steps he took, but...) But I wasn't talking about scoring runs — which is largely dependent on the guys hitting behind you — but producing them. Mays was one of the precious few who knew stuff like how to work a run-down play so a runner ahead of him could score. He was probably also better at taking the extra base than just about anybody — not just on speed, but on knowing when he could get away with it and, more importantly, when he should try, and he knew how to deke outfielders into throwing behind him so he could move up.

I'm also gonna mention again how Mays prevented a lotta runs with his glove and his arm, because preventing runs is just as important as producing them.

But we're never gonna get anywhere with this argument, are we? We'll sure have us some fun, though. :D

[EFerrari]

85. Oh, Hank Aaron, no doubt.

:)

[Hand]

117. You are correct, sir!

Number 715!

[Va Lefty]

86. Ruth

This from a life long Yankee-hater. Aside from Ruth's batting stats, people forget that he was a very good pitcher early in his career. Over a 4 year stretch from 1915-1918 he went a combined 78-40 w/ 2.05 ERA and 16 shutouts. Willie Mays a close second

[HuskerDU]

88. Amen VA Lefty!

Amazing numbers he put up... as a pitcher! The guy created and prevented a ton of runs.

[triguy46]

90. Freddie Patek. n/t

[Oeditpus Rex]

94. Poor little Freddie

What a gamer he was. :cry:

[triguy46]

108. I agree, at 5' 4" a tough little guy. Big heart.

[Oeditpus Rex]

119. I'll never forget that photo of him

sitting alone in the dugout, crying, after the Royals lost that tough ALCS to — oh, dog, was it '76? '77? '78?

[triguy46]

128. '77. I was still in KC at the time.

[datasuspect]

93. "wireless" joe jackson or rajiv samir

[IndianaJones]

95. Barry Bonds. nt.

[RedSpartan]

98. Lou Gehrig

[JVS]

102. Gehrig or Ruth

[many a good man]

106. Pete Rose

NOT!



His over-aggressive play in the 1970 All Star game ruined the career of my then-idol, Ray Fosse. He would have been greater than Bench.

[Oeditpus Rex]

112. Fosse shouldn't have been in the baseline without the ball

:popcorn:

[YDogg]

107. Roberto Clemente

[tigereye]

109. roberto Clemente

Willie Stargell

Willie Mays....

[MrSlayer]

113. Ty Cobb.

In 24 seasons, most with the Detroit Tigers, Ty Cobb compiled a .366 batting average, the highest in the history of the game. He was the leader in runs scored for more than 70 years and in hits for nearly 60 years. In 1936, Cobb became the first man inducted into the Hall of Fame, earning 222 out of a possible 226 votes, more than Babe Ruth, Nap Lajoie, Walter Johnson, or Honus Wagner. Cobb blazed and battled a path through baseball, retiring with more records than any other player.


Six times in his career, Cobb reached base and proceeded to steal second, third and home. The first time he did it was in 1907, the final time was in 1924

Cobb might be remembered best for his intimidating playing style. He was never afraid to go to extremes to win a game. He could take pain, as well as hand it out. "I recall when Cobb played a series with each leg a mass of raw flesh," Grantland Rice wrote. "He had a temperature of 103 and the doctors ordered him to bed for several days, but he got three hits, stole three bases, and won the game. Afterward he collapsed at the bench."

No player in baseball history drove in more teammates than did Cobb. When you subtract home runs from RBI, you have the number of teammates batted in (TBI), Cobb leads all-time with 1,843.

Had no weaknesses on the field. First man to the Hall of Fame. First MVP.


http://www.thebaseballpage.com/past/pp/cobbty/

As great a player as he was a bad person. Best player ever for my money.

[Oeditpus Rex]

118. A note on one of Cobb's tours-by-steal

He once did it against catcher Lou Criger — so it could've been against the Red Sox, Yankees or Browns, and I'm too lazy to look it up — and he told Criger he was running before each steal.

The trick was, Cobb had picked up something that told him when the pitcher was throwing to the plate, so when he told Criger "I'm going on the next pitch," it was because he could get a bigger lead, knowing it was gonna be a pitch and not a pick-off attempt. (I'm thinking now the pitcher was Rube Waddell, so that would make it against the Browns in 1909.)

Cobb did have one weakness, though: By his own admission, he screwed up his arm by messing around with curve balls and the like. He could also be the victim of his own type of psyops; his temper was so horrible that a few players (Babe Ruth among them) learned how to rattle him into making a mistake.

[Louie the XIV]

114. Ruth hands down

Was hitting more home runs then half the teams in the league during his prime and could have gone into the HOF as a pitcher if he didn't switch to the outfield.

[cloudbase]

120. Pete LaCock

He played for the Royals. Uninspiring career, but you gotta love the name.

[Oeditpus Rex]

123. Know who his dad is?

"Hollywood Squares" host Peter Marshall, nee Pierre LaCock.