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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:03 PM
Original message
Christianspeak in the face of tragedy
This has always pissed me off to no end. I remember visiting a family in which their 2-year old son died of a tragic accident. Their answer was "Even in this, God be praised." I almost saw red, but kept my comments to myself. Now, if you believe in a just God, why would you want to praise him for letting this happen? Basically, if you believe that God is the master of all things (as Fundies do) God killed your son.

Yes, that's right...

God

Killed

Your Son

Praise him? Fuck I'd want to go all out Satanic and work against him. Doing anything else does not honor your son if you beleive in God in this way.

Now, I'm an athiest, and I know there is no God that has a hand in these things. Shit just happens, shit you can't blame anyone for, and can't do anything about. That's fucking life. Mourn your loved ones when they die, celebrate their existance, and try to keep them alive in your mind as long as possible. That's all you can do.

But instead, you get the quotes of "Glory be to God" and my favorite, which I understand helps coping, but still does a disservice to the loved one: "Well, he is with God now..."

Gimmie a fucking break.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. the lord works in mysterious ways
and right now, He's telling me to tell you to give me lots of money. I know it's mysterious on the face of it, but it's all according to His plan. Trust Him.
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. I struggle with religion as much as anyone, but this story just pushed me over the edge.
How on earth could any "God" allow this to happen to this poor child.

http://www.bloggernews.net/15520

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Wow...I hate stories like that
Yes, the only worldview you could ever have that would square with that is the "shit happens" worldview
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. depends on the religion
in hinduism and buddhism, life is considered painful and pretty much a punishment.

so in these religions,children dying, is considered a blessing to the child, and ofcourse a terribly tragedy to the parents.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. It's the same in Christianity
Life is a struggle and it's extremely unfair. If you follow Irenaeus' theological viewpoint, the world is a soul-making place. Some might call it a soul-crushing place, but in Christianity the goal is not a life of ease and pleasure. Death, then, is seen as a reward for suffering, a final deliverance from the pain of this realm.

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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. thats sums it up: death is a deliverance from pain.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. I struggle with knowing what to say
besides "I'm sorry". For God's sake, what could we say to anyone who's endured an unspeakable tragedy? I try not to do the Christianspeak thing, too, but sometimes, it just slips out -- the "I'll pray for you" stuff. I do pray. I'm not sure it's heard, but I do pray, because I think and hope that the good and the pure intent behind it will be any comfort at all to the person I'm speaking with.

Julie
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. not just fundies believe that.
if you're a believer -- then all things are held with the creator -- even bad things like someone's child dying.



just saying.
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Dr_Funkenstein Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm an Atheist Too...
But I like the fact that so many find comfort in a god or creator. It's a little silly to me, but my beliefs are silly to them, so it all evens out I guess.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. those comments are based
in fear and conformity. I wouldn't have blamed you at all if you'd spoken your mind about how you felt...it would have been very hard not to. I'm not an atheist, but I just don't understand situations like that, I don't think any loving god makes things like that happen. Or any dark 'force of evil' either. I think of it in terms of physics; when our bodies are broken or damaged beyond repair, then our soul has to leave because it can't live in that broken body anymore. I don't think the universe means to kill people or other beings; I do sometimes feel this is a kind of purgatory, because if I were a god planning a universe, to come up with the idea that 'hey, let's make a planet on which everything that lives there has to kill and eat other things to survive, there is no way around it', well, that just seems like a bad idea, one that would send me back to the drawing board. But so it goes in the physical world.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Your OP strikes me as a minor tragedy
but I don't know what to say. It burns you up to let people believe in the foma that make them brave and strong and happy.

I don't believe those foma myself with any certainty, but I realize I could be wrong, and I hope I am.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Does it really make you strong and happy?
Let's just say for the sake of argument God exists, and is behind every even in time and space. So God deems it right that your child be taken from you so young - is this a guy you want to be behind?

Abrahamic religions were created at a time where slavery was commonplace - basically this is no different than slave mentality. If the master sees it right that my children are taken from me and sold, than it must be right.

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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. it's better than the alternative
Although I tend to be more of a deist, like Franklin

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/hfojvt/40

If God was gonna interfere with the world, wouldn't he/she have stopped the holocaust, the world wars, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc.?

Still, even if I believed that God took my child, that is better than the alternative. If there is a God, then my child still exists and we will meet again after death. If, alternatively, there is no God, then whether my child lives two years or 107 years does not make a tanjed bit of difference 300 years from now. Not to him/her anyway. With an afterlife, the death of even a newborn, has little sting. Without it, even the death of a 90 year old, stings like a mutha.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-16-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Actually, I was scared of death until I realized there was no afterlife
What if I was going to Hell? What if I was going somewhere worse? What if I was doomed to walk the Earth?

Now that I know precisely what will happen, I am at peace.
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bumblebee1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
15. You mean I'm not the only one who feels repugnant about this?
I remember walking away from my father's grave. My aunt said something to the effect of "He's with God now." Believe me, this was the last thing I really wanted to hear. She meay have meant well when she said that. Come on, I just buried the only parent I had left on this Earth. I just cried. My father was 53 when he died.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. "He's in a better place."
Same thing, my Dad was 52 when he died from an unexpected stroke. My well-meaning great-grandmother said the above mentioned remark. Same thing, I didn't say anything, but it pissed me off. A better place? Better than on his Christmas tree farm with his family and his animals? Maybe God or whatever should have let him choose. I know damn well he didn't go to any place except the farm to have his ashes spread. I know these was no purpose in his death. It was just an improbable, natural accident. No one is owed a long life and I just had to accept that the law of averages hit our family for no real reason.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. To me, the premise you offer is skewed
"Now, if you believe in a just God, why would you want to praise him for letting this happen?"

Our term for 'god' sees god as all powerful over all things. God, to me, obey's our physics to some extent - ie, F=Gm1m2/r^2 - the further we get from God the less influence God has in our lives.

We can, and do (as we should), ask the same thing of ourselves as humans - why do we in the US, the most powerful country on the planet, allow the shit that happens across the globe to happen?

The Sudan is one of but many examples. We could swoop in, kill those in power, and liberate people - kind of like the right says we have done in Iraq. We have the power to do so - yet we don't.

Why?

WE as a country could be seen as 'god' in that we CAN do a lot of things to make life better for others - yet we don't. WE could stop the suffering of many people. Yet instead we seem to add to it time after time.

Does that mean we do not exist?

Or does that mean there is really 'evil' in the world (ala bush, etc) - where those with power abuse it instead of helping others. And in this country, a democracy, does that mean that you and I are evil because we are a part of it? I would hope not :)

There are bigger things at work here in the US, and some see that there are bigger things at work in the universe.

It does not always make sense...
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
17. Maybe they don't see God as having killed their son
Maybe they don't see God as having killed their son-- maybe they see God as simply taking their son home. I'm in no position to judge either their feelings or the outward manifestations of them-- maybe you are.

Hard far me to fathom how different people handle death. As for me, I usually internalize it and make inappropriate jokes. That seems to piss people off too, but as you say, "That's fucking life".

:shrug:
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
18. I think I would punch someone who said that to me
if I had a personal tragedy and someone told me it was "God's will". How dare they say something like that to ANYONE.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-17-07 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
20. Secular speak:
God is not responsible for this. To the extent anyone is, we are. It was an accident, but maybe some contributing risk might be minimized in the future. We must act, not pray.
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