Last night at work I wanted to slap the shit out of some boy's mother.

[LeftyMom]

I'm ringing them up, and I happen to notice the shirt on this little boy who is about the same age as LK. Like quite a lot of shirts for young boys it's got a mid-roar T. rex on it, but it reads "On the sixth day God created dinosaurs!" and then below it has a reference to some verse in Genesis. I couldn't say a thing because I was at work.

Lying to children and using them to advertise one's religious lunacy is a horrible thing to do. I can't even begin to say how much that pisses me off.

[datasuspect]

1. hell yeah, something like would incite me to commit aggravated assault on a stranger

kick ass!

[skygazer]

2. I guess I've got to dust off my Bible

I don't remember that line...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

3. well the flip side is, my child will wear Gay Pride and Equality T-shirts

some fundie will think that i shouldnt use my child to advertise my immoral lifestyle. i suppose in this case, because its my child and my belief system, i have a right to impose it on my kid. if she later becomes a raging homophobe thats her choice, as long as she is my child, i will inculcate what i think is important to her.

[skygazer]

12. That's true, everyone has that right

However, it wouldn't be my personal choice to put my kid in any clothing that advertised my beliefs - whether it was a political, religious or social belief. They'd be more likely to be wearing something with their beliefs on it - cartoon characters or skateboard heros. While my kids have always been well aware of the way I view things, I never used them as little walking billboards to punctuate that. In my opinion, that's not really fair.

In addition, teaching tolerance is somewhat different than skewing scientifically accepted data to fit another belief which is just dishonest and wrong (again, in my opinion).

[datasuspect]

14. i'd make an exception for this jumper:

people should know that i am training my child to thrash and be totally gnarly.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. my point is what is tolerance to me and you, is immoral to a third person

thankfully because of free speech/religion etc we should all be able to live in some sort of harmony.

punching isnt harmonious

[Gormy Cuss]

15. Quite right.

I'm not fond of adults using children as bulletin boards for their religious or political beliefs but I don't get worked up about unless the message is hurtful to the audience (racist, homophobic, etc.)

According to Genesis, God created all land animals on the sixth day so for a Christian to accept that dinosaurs existed, they must assume that they were created on that day and that either they all died in the great flood or were somehow marched onto the ark. To a family raising him in Christianity this tee shirt is consistent with their beliefs. The kid, like all kids, will have to opportunity to make his own assessment as he gets older.

[asthmaticeog]

4. EVERYONE raises their kids according to their own beliefs.

To do otherwise would be utterly absurd. Their freedom to do it is your freedom to do it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. yeah thats what i think too.

[datasuspect]

8. shit i had some biscuits and gravy that so good

it made you want to smack your own mother!

[asthmaticeog]

11. I'll take two, please!

[krispos42]

5. Oy vey.

<shakes head sadly>

Isn't changing your religion to fit reality kinda... oh, I dunno... science-like?

[nini]

7. Last I head we still had freedom of religion in this country

What scares me more than that is having their right to be stupid taken away.

[LeftyMom]

9. Yeah, but we also have freedom to criticize people who mistreat children

Lying to kids to indoctrinate them is definitely poor treatment. That woman should be ashamed of herself.

[datasuspect]

10. schools do it all the time

[Madrone]

13. I kind of hate to say this....

since I am firmly planted on you side of the fence in the animal rights fight and am in 100% agreement with your food choices (I think everyone should at least be vegetarian, in my perfect world) .... BUT ....

I've seen pics of LK with a "Meat is Murder" tshirt on. Do you not realize that in many (most?) people's eyes what you're doing w/ LK and veganism is an identical situation from another perspective? I think I'd pretty much bet money that "americans" would actually be MORE disturbed by the meat is murder tshirt than the one you reference, so you'd probably lose against the other mom in the court of public opinion.

That said -- good on ya! If and when I ever have kids ... they'll not be raised as omnis.

[LeftyMom]

19. I can see where that would bother some people

The difference as I see it is that the assertion on that boy's shirt is demonstrably false, and that he almost certainly doesn't know that, where what's on LK's shirt is an opinion with quite a bit of evidence to back it up, and he's informed and activist in his veganism in an age appropriate way.

[datasuspect]

20. does it warrant an impulse toward violence against another human being?

isn't that, what's the word?



CRUEL?

[LeftyMom]

24. Did I slap her? No. Would I have? No.

If I'd encountered the same family at the grocery store or something, I would have said something to the mother, but not made a scene in front of her kids.

[datasuspect]

25. but why frame your OP in terms of violence against another person?

it seems that the idea is there.

actions flow from ideas many times.

doesn't seem very nice to feel that way about people.

[LeftyMom]

30. Go bother somebody else.

You bore me.

[datasuspect]

34. you guys are all the same

NO FUN!!!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. on a scale of 1-10 how much do you appreciate irony.

i have been wanting to say that on du for the last few weeks.

[datasuspect]

55. irony is the shit yo!

[fudge stripe cookays]

56. Surprised?

Anyone who questions such dogma MUST be either boring or just plain WRONG.

[greatauntoftriplets]

57. No and it's pure comedy gold!!!

I am damn near pissing my pants here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. or cruel. or inhumane. or uninformed.

[fudge stripe cookays]

98. Of course.

We're all a bunch of cruel, inhumane, uninformed cretins, dontcha know.

[Madrone]

32. Excuse me but...

You are ignoring the FACT that if LK doesn't eat MEAT he's going to waste away and DIE!!! What kind of mother ARE you? And then, to make him advertise!

JUST KIDDING. That's just what unfortunately goes through my head about people's reactions to what you've said. Also unfortunate? The fact that most of that ignorant, rude, arrogant, selfish crap comes from DUers in my world, even though the only vegs I know in real life are the couple that followed my example.






I LOVE the way that you keep LK informed and explain to him the reasons behind your decisions to be vegan.

[LeftyMom]

35. He's just wasting away.

It's very sad.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

22. putting a kid in a t-shirt that advocates your religious view is hardly mistreatment.

[datasuspect]

23. t shirts are mistreatment

but eating cheese is cruel . . .

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. i have some yummy goat cheese in the fridge.

i would give it to my kid, cruel or not.

[Richardo]

62. CHEESE IS MURDER !!!1!!

[Omphaloskepsis]

102. Not Murder.. It is rape.

[Kali]

64. Would the woman really be lying to the kid?

To herself maybe, but if she believes the shit then it's hard to say it is lying. Even so that is hardly "poor treatment".

And then I had the warped thought that maybe it was a JOKE? I might pick up a shirt like that to RIDICULE fundie dilusions....

Then again maybe not since obviously it could be interpreted as being serious as well! yikes.

[Wcross]

16. Intolerance works both ways.

Would it be acceptable for a religious person to slap the shit out of a mother who dressed her child in an athiest themed shirt?

[LeftyMom]

21. Is the kid old enought to understand the issues behind it?

That's what I find objectionable, is that this kid was too young to understand (and almost certainly hadn't even heard) how obviously untrue what his shirt says is. I'd hate for a kid to grow up knowing his family used him to promote an untruth.

[datasuspect]

26. like eating animals is cruel?

[LeftyMom]

31. Yes.

Now go piss on somebody else's thread.

[datasuspect]

33. point is

what's true for you is absurdity to others.

all the veganistic jihadi lunacy in the world can't change the fact that perspective is 99% of everything.

[Wcross]

36. Like it or not only his parents can make the decision.

What they choose to teach their children is none of my business. As long as physical abuse is not involved I have no right to interfere.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. exactly. we cant expect tolerance and not promote it ourself.

[datasuspect]

39. the problem with "virtuous lifestyle choice" adherents

is the implied superiority of their position. it almost takes on a fundamentalist flavor.

you must never mistreat an animal, but it is okay to slap the shit out of a mother in front of her child.

[LeftyMom]

38. I'm not saying anybody should stop them

I'm just saying that religious idiocy should not be immune from criticism, and that when people do stupid things to kids in the name of the faith of the parents somebody needs to say something.

Edit: Especially since some churches are very isolationist and create their own social communities where this sort of behavior is reinforced.

[datasuspect]

40. i feel the same way about "virtuous lifestyle choice" fundamentalism

idiocy abounds in all sectors.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

42. maybe you should pm the "biceps of justice"

PM SQUAD ASSEMBLE!!!!!

[enigmatic]

51. I just got the name of my new music project!

"Biceps Of Justice"

Thank you!

[datasuspect]

53. you are very welcome my fine, sensible friend

[fudge stripe cookays]

58. .

[Kali]

69. uh ... isn't this a public forum?

Why so defensive? You got caught in a bit of hypocrisy - face your error and move on.

[datasuspect]

75. back when one of that crowd was a mod

they used to at least have some gumption.

now they won't even engage me in play-fighting.

[Kali]

65. um like adherents to certain lifestyles?

just saying. Parents have a right to raise their offspring to believe the same as them, even ignorant things.

Fundies have as much right to indoctrinate as you or I do.

[jgraz]

61. Really? That mother could beat her kid every day and do less damage than her twisted beliefs will

Child abuse is not always physical or sexual. That kid will spend a lifetime paying for his mother's delusions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. bullshit.

a lot of people grow up with religious parents and get a better education and grow out of it.

living in an abusive household requires far more than a good education to recover from.

[jgraz]

66. I assume you have personal experience with this

Since you seem to speak with such authority on the subject.

I've been there, and seen both sides of this issue. I've seen what a twisted religious upbringing can do to people. One of the main reasons that physical abuse can be dealt with is that the victims know they've been abused. Religious abuse just tends to breed more religious abusers.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

68. yes, i have read enough literature and known enough people

who survived through childhood physical/sexual violence to know about this issue.

[jgraz]

73. I'm sure all that reading made a huge impression on you

It must have been tough...really tough. I know it's long road, but I hope you've managed to recover.

Oh yeah:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

74. no i grew up in a religious home and had plenty of sexual abuse to deal with,

so yeah it was tough.

never mind. removed personal attack.

[jgraz]

76. OK, point made.

Sorry for lashing out. You got in the way of me being pissed off at that idiot mother. Time for me to take a DU break.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. look i think richardo's message at the bottom of the thread makes the most amount of sense

of anything anyone has said on this thread.

check it out.

[jgraz]

81. I've heard that argument before, but I don't agree with it.

See my reply. OK, I'm off to enjoy the weekend. Peace.

[skygazer]

44. Ummmm.... you said he was about the same age as LK

Who you describe as being well-informed and activist about veganism in an age-appropriate way. So how do you know that this kid was too young to understand?

I don't care for the sentiment on the shirt, I also don't like the idea of people skewing science, and as I've said in a previous post, it wouldn't be my choice to use my kid as a walking billboard for ANY of my beliefs but your argument is kind of breaking down with that statement, it seems to me.

[LeftyMom]

45. Pretty sure the typical kid that age doesn't understand

-paleontology
-geological strata
-the scientific method
-history of the bible
-the debate about biblical literalism
-the political context of creationism
etc

You really can't make an argument for a creationist view of dinosaurs without at least a minimal understanding of some of those subjects.

LK understands that he loves animals and doesn't want them hurt. He knows a bit about how some animals are caged, etc in animal farming. He probably couldn't make a health argument for veganism but he can and does argue for it on the basis of animal welfare.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. a kid that age can understand that god created the universe

infact arguably a child might find that a much more believable idea than evolution.

[skygazer]

47. I don't know what age we're talking here

But I disagree that those factors are required for a kid to understand enough to feel they have a belief any more than I feel that LeftyKid would have to understand the political context of veganism, the debate about health issues, the scientific facts about vegan lifestyles, the history of man as an omnivore, etc.

I am not trying to argue with you about veganism here - I think it's a smart lifestyle choice and salute you for teaching your child about your beliefs in age-appropriate ways. I just think it's maybe a little unfair that you're making snap judgments about what this other child may or may not believe based on your own views and assumptions.

[LynneSin]

17. I bet he got it here

http://www.creationmuseum.org/

[LeftyMom]

28. We're a touch far away

I'm guessing one of the local bible thwapping churches is doing a creation/jesus horse themed summer bible school, because it looked new.

[johnnie]

27. When I was a kid, we were raised that way

We had religious coloring books and went to church. I went to Bible school when I was 6 years old or so. It wasn't all religion all the time, but my mother's religion was/is important to her. We all grew up fine and so did the hundreds of other children I met through my childhood.

If you would have tried to slap the shit out of my mother, chances are you wouldn't have been able to type this today. Just sayin...

[Blue-Jay]

43. I wish you would have slapped her.

[Susang]

49. Irony

It's whats for dinner. And it has the nifty bonus of being vegan.

[DS1]

52. For great justice!

/Cats

[flvegan]

48. It could have been worse.

The t-rex could have been standing on the ark on that t-shirt.

Even worse, it could've said "I'm glad I wasn't an abortion"

[DS1]

50. God Bless Your Heart

[Nicole]

60. I understand what you're saying but...

She's not lying to the kid if that is what she truly believes. She's passing on her religious beliefs to her child, something most people do.

To be lying she would have to intentionally pass on an untruth. In her mind it is the truth.


Arguing whether her belief is wrong or not is a different matter altogether IMHO.

[jgraz]

80. Sorry, but that's not good enough

Any more than it's OK that Bush may have truly believed the yellowcake story when he told it. Not bothering to question the fundamental beliefs you pass on to your children is just bad parenting, and morally equivalent to lying (since it results in the same thing in the end).

[Nicole]

89. I disagree

How do we know that she hasn't bothered to question her beliefs? She may have very well questioned them and they were answered in a way that led her to believe them to be the truth.

Whether her belief is wrong or not is a different matter altogether. If she is wrong then she is passing on false information, not deliberating telling an untruth. To be a lie the teller has to know it's an untruth when they tell it.

[Richardo]

67. It should be illegal for any kid under 13 to wear socio-political messages

No matter what the subject: Gay rights, veganism, religion, politics (left or right) - at that age they're just parroting their parents' views, except they're cuter doing it. That's exploitation in my book. Same goes for pre-teens at protests - I find it manipulative, disingenuous and inappropriate.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

70. this is a view point i can understand/support much better

atleast its not highly hypocritical.

[Richardo]

71. .

lioness!!


(...and thanks.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. infact i might reconsider my future child wearing a gay rights t-shirt

based on your viewpoint. atleast its given me food for thought.

[DS1]

78. How about some nice collared shirts

Maybe a pleasant shade of brown

/

[Kali]

91. I don't know...

I think there is a line that could be drawn between exploitation and simply inclusion or life experience in things the family participates in. I see your point but also see lots of room to allow those things, even encourage them.

[S n o w b a l l]

92. Thanks...

you said it a lot better than I did where I got thrashed below.

[S n o w b a l l]

79. Indoctrinating a kid into your choice of lifestyle or belief...

is child abuse. Introducing them to all viewpoints and letting them make their own choices in the only way to prevent narros minded radicalism and promote free thinkers. It drives me crazy to see parents trying to create little mini-me's.

[MonkeyFunk]

82. nonsense

every child is "indoctrinated" into some lifestyle and some belief-system.

It's not necessarily abusive.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

83. seconded.

my child will be indoctrinated to be a non-racist, non-homophobic, non-sexist person.

i am sure that thats highly abusive.

[S n o w b a l l]

88. Sorry you both misunderstood me...

My family was the typical old school racist,50's, judgmental family...however, they did not indoctrinate me into their way of thinking. They made sure I was exposed to a different way of life by their charitable actions and many lectures on being an open minded person.

Even though my father was extremely prejudiced, we would take out minority foster kids on our boat, do things like drop off Easter baskets on porches in the inner city....just shit like that (which I know sounds lame written). We were sent to church and exposed to religion but it was never pounded into our heads that that was the only truth. I was allowed to grow up to be a free thinker regardless of their beliefs. Abusive to me is ingraining into a child's head that your belief is the only belief when it comes to certain beliefs...kindness and acceptance of all people is not one of those negotiable choices.

[DS1]

84. I'm seconding this

There's little worse than a militant hyper-progressive

[Blue-Jay]

85. Not even.....

Banjo Hitler?!?!

[DS1]

87. bandwidth thief

[Blue-Jay]

95. Oops!

Better?

[ronnykmarshall]

86. Oh please.

So my parents are guilty of child abuse because they thought being gay was "wrong"? Please have the guts to say that bullshit to my mother's face. You'll find a foot shoved up your ass real quick.

[S n o w b a l l]

90. Yes...i do think the bullshit your mom spouted was wrong..

and I have two good feet to shove up her ass too and would be more than happy to do it.

[ronnykmarshall]

96. and what you don't know about my mom is PLENTY!

[S n o w b a l l]

99. You brought her up...not me

[ronnykmarshall]

100. and you took the bait ......

not me

[S n o w b a l l]

101. don't go fishing if you don't want to catch something

[Omphaloskepsis]

103. Does this piss you off.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lowercasetee/456651918/

[Lex]

93. We call them Jesus Horses.

Link: http://wikiality.com/index.php?title=Jesus_Horse&redire...

[idgiehkt]

94. computer simulation

[SPKrazy]

97. Hey, Jesus rode dinosaurs

i'm sure of it!

and did you know the only state mentioned in the bible is Arkansas?

































Noah looked out of the


































Ark






and








saw









=


Arkansas

[Hangingon]

104. I found it too hard...

to go thru life looking for things that piss me off. So I quit and life got a lot better.

[Downtown Hound]

105. Sorry, but if the Flinstones say that man lived side by side with dinosaurs

then dog gone it, that's good enough for me.

[Call Me Wesley]

106. Locking.

Call Me Wesley
DU Moderator