My ex employer is going to appeal my unemployment compensation

[undeterred]

This is an all time high in viciousness. I've been out of work for 6 weeks. This is my only income. If I lose, I will have no income and have to pay it all back. I had to fight them for my last paycheck and fight them for COBRA information and fight them to put through my health insurance. I don't have the money for a lawyer and all of my ex coworkers are afraid to talk to me. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[LaraMN]

1. Can you contact Legal Aid?

Maybe they could be of help.

I'm so sorry. How very maddening and frustrating. You have my good thoughts and vibes that you won't get screwed over!

[1gobluedem]

3. I recommend contacting Legal Aid too

Or see if an employment lawyer will take it on contingency. You have rights.

Good luck.

On edit: Do you know your state rep? Mine was very helpful in stopping me from being double billed on my student loan, perhaps yours can help you with this.

[undeterred]

16. thanks

I got some numbers and contact information today. Its overwhelming.

[Checkstub]

29. Undeterred could contact Legal Aid,

but how would that help her/him in this case?
Unemployment is a wholly self-contained labarynthine bureaucracy; if you're diligent, keep records, and go to hearings, you'll eventually wear them down and prevail.
And unemployment pays back-pay counting back to when you first filed your claim, at least in MN. It's a federal program, I'm sure most/all states are similar. If you have your facts together.
'Legal aid' wouldn't be appropriate in undeterred's case.

[LeftyFingerPop]

2. May I ask what is their position for the appeal?

Why are they appealing?

[undeterred]

13. I really think they just fight everyone for every last dime

and because they are vicious.

They make every termination into a firing for grievous misconduct.

Mine had to do with looking at someone's calendar in Microsoft Outlook. The truth is- we had an open calendar system where anyone in the company can look at anyone elses calendar by default. They can choose to unshare it or make appts. private if they don't want anyone to see their calendar.

I looked at the calendar of someone in HR and mentioned it to her. They accused me of abusing my IT account privileges in order to do this- but I never abused my IT privileges, and I could see her calendar even without elevated IT privileges. I tried to explain this to them, and believe me, it got me nowhere. They still haven't locked down their system. But they can't prove I did anything wrong.

But here's what's scary. None of my ex-coworkers will communicate with me. The only people I know who have had a company fight them on this say that their ex-coworkers testified against them and lied at the hearing because they were threatened with losing their jobs if they didn't. People will lie to keep their jobs. The company has a lot more power than I do.

[LeftyFingerPop]

26. Take a deep breath...

I would go to the hearing prepared to present your case both verbally and in writing.

I know how upsetting things like this can be, but my opinion is that you will be fine.

Stay strong, win your case, and please let us know how you made out.

Sending good vibes to you.:pals:

[Checkstub]

30. Undeterred, of course they're going to fight this,

because if they lose, their rates will go up.
Yes, they may be vicious, and there's lots of money at stake, for both sides.
Of course they're going to say to the administrative law-judge at unemployment, should it come to that, that you were a monumental screw-up.
Of course, you have proof that says otherwise.
If you have your facts together, keep filing your paperwork on time, go to each and every hearing, you'll win by default. And get your back-pay.
Forget your former employees, they won't help you now. They know they can't. Whoever has your records at this former job MUST help you, however, or else...
It's not that hard, you can totally do this!:hi:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

38. That was their reason? An Open Calendar?

You're sure it wasn't some really important violation of workplace rules like using two sugars in your coffee?

I think you have grounds for wrongful termination (don't konw if those laws apply in Wisconsin, though), and certainly grounds for appealing your unemployment benefits.

What a bunch of creeps. It sucks to be unemployed, but I think your next job is going to be better than that one. Hang in there.

[undeterred]

50. Oh yeah, there was one other thing.

I was told at my review a week earlier that I used too many sticky notes.

Seriously. I am not kidding. I mean, I did bring some from home, but I guess they feel I should not collect unemployment because I cost them too much in sticky notes.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Well then. There You Go.

I'm surprised they put up with your behavior for as long as they did. I'm sure that annual cost savings for paperclips will more than make up for their legal fees to fight your unemployment.

[undeterred]

52. I just talked to an employment attorney for 5 min

She was laughing about the Microsoft Outlook calendar thing so hard I never told her about the stickies.
She says they can't deny me unemployment for looking at a shared calendar.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

54. Good!

Bunch of miserable jerks. I wish you could take them to the cleaners, but at least you can get your unemployment. Maybe start your own business and go into competition with them?

[undeterred]

57. They make 1500 cylinder diesel engines.

I don't know how. :shrug:

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

68. Well, don't look at me...

I don't know either!

[JoDog]

65. Don't be surprised if they claim

to have fired you for a different reason.

I was fired almost 3 years ago from a position on a newspaper for letting a grammatical mistake get into print. On a night, that the news copy desk was only half staffed due to budget cutting measures, so I was doing twice the work I should have been doing. It was my first offense, and my firing violated their own stated policies--according to the HR manual, I should have been either sent home without pay or docked my pay for that day. They also did not consult my immediate supervisor or his supervisor before firing me. This occurred shortly after I and several other news copy editors complained about our working conditions and the lack of editing consistancy paperwide. Which lead me to believe that I was fired because I had become a "troublemaker" because I objected to being treated like a robot, and this was the most convenient way they could come up with to get rid of me and basically threaten everyone else.

I applied for unemployment, and they tried to fight it. They claimed that I made the mistake ON PURPOSE in order to hurt the newspaper. I told my caseworker that was ridiculous, and she agreed with me. The newspaper lost and had to pay up.

When the caseworker expressed surprise that I was fired on my first offense, I explained my suspicions to her. She said that it was against Illinois law at that time to lie to someone about the reason they are fired. The employee must be told the true reason for their termination. If I really believed I was lied to, she said, I should consider suing for wrongful or improper termination.

Well, I was out of work about a month. I decided to concentrate my energies on the new job, and not a lawsuit. Undeterred, you may want to look into what your state's labor laws are. I agree that the idea that you were fired for looking at an open calendar is ridiculous, and something else must be going on.

[undeterred]

67. Well, the real reason is I'm not an ass kisser

My old manager left in October and one of my co-workers was promoted in December - first to interim manager, then to manager. I got along fine with the old manager- he was technically competent and not an ass kisser, and did not expect it from us. The new person is technically incompetent to the point where he would tell me to do stuff that reflected very poor judgment and my own supervisor disagreed with him all the time. Plus, he was a habitual liar, a total ass kisser, and wanted own his ass kissed all the time. Lots of issues.

We never actually had an open conflict till my review, where he criticized me for using too many sticky notes, and was going to use that for denying me a raise. I called bullshit and went to HR. I think he was trying to piss me off enough to get me to quit. But then HR fired me over the calendar issue.

The new manager was a nightmare and I no longer wanted the job. I also knew that he was already soliciting resumes for my position because I heard rumors.

They can fire you for any reason they want, and they can tell you anything they want, basically. I mean if they want to make a mountain out of my yellow sticky notes, so be it. But lying about gross misconduct is illegal.

I have to go with the reason they put in writing- they told me that I must have misused my IT privileges to see her calendar, which is untrue. They accused me of reading her email, which I never did.

I hate that this is still going on 6 weeks later.

[IntravenousDemilo]

69. If they claim it's because of something different from what was in the termination letter...

...then they're toast, and Undeterred has grounds for a $ubstantial $ettlement. This would also be the case if the letter gives a different reason from the one mentioned orally at the meeting, which would be easy to prove if there was an impartial non-management witness at the meeting. Let's hope they screw up! I've never met an HR person who wasn't scum.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

40. After what happened to you, do you really expect your former co-workers to speak?

If this company is THAT vicious, they're all scared for their own jobs. Do not take that personally.

[undeterred]

46. No, I know.

And everyone in management there is the type who wouldn't hesitate to do lots of unethical things to keep their job. These are not people with a lot of scruples.

[undeterred]

47. No, I know.

And everyone in management there is the type who wouldn't hesitate to do lots of unethical things to keep their job. These are not people with a lot of scruples.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. WTF is their problem?!

:hug: I'm so sorry they're such assholes. Do your best to not go postal on them, though I'd fully understand the urge.

[undeterred]

58. Thanks.

their problem... a lot of bitter ex-military types, very much a commander in chief type place

Last year was the first time I worked on a campaign, first year I ever had bumper stickers on my car. I had one that said "Defend America: Impeach Bush".

No one ever said anything to me one way or the other about it, and I knew of many other closeted liberals at the company. Small enough company/parking lot that you know whose car is whose. Everyone knew I was working on a Democratic campaign and I took time off for it.

But at a gut level, I think the guy at the very top may have really been angry about that bumper sticker and said- "find out whose bumper sticker that is and really stick it to that person". No one ever said anything remotely critical of my politics, of course, and both my immediate supervisor and manager were superficially Democrats who thought the bumper sticker was funny/cool. I could never prove that was the reason. But that's the only thing I can think of that I could have done that would piss some one off this much.

That, and the usual corporate contempt for human beings and love for money.

[Missy Vixen]

5. Go to the hearing

Do you have any kind of written documentation of what you've suffered at the hands of this employer? Be sure and get that in order pre-hearing. You could also try writing a factual narrative of some of the things that happened.

Above all, be sure and go to the hearing, even if you think it's hopeless. We live in Washington State. One of the unemployment employees told me that many employers dispute unemployment just to do it, then fail to show up for the hearing. If they don't show, it's automatically awarded here.

Good luck to you.
Julie

[RebelOne]

12. I had an employer dispute my unemployment claim.

I went to the hearing and he didn't show up, so I won.

[undeterred]

14. How long did you wait?

[Checkstub]

32. I did the same:

I was ostensibly fired, according to them, but the former employer could never show anything I did wrong.
I found other employment in the meantime, but never let go of this, especially as I knew there was about 5 grand in back benefits accrued by then. I went to the appointed hearing on time on an average Wednesday, and they didn't show. I won by default and got a huge check for over 4 grand a week later.
You gotta fight and show up though!

[undeterred]

44. I mean, at the hearing

How long did were you there before they were declared a "no show"?

[mzteris]

6. what are the details, again?

if you don't mind sharing.

[reformed_military]

9. Agreed

Location (State only) and Details should help us figure out what your rights are.

Good luck.

[datasuspect]

7. three words:

HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT.

vague enough, and i'm sure you saw or heard SOMETHING that could be construed as legally actionable.

[Yavin4]

10. 100% Correct

Claim sexually abusive work environment. That should be enough to make them back down.

[datasuspect]

11. any kind of harassment

bullying, stress overload (with dr. diagnosis for anxiety disorder), all kinds of stuff you can use.

[Checkstub]

34. How does Hostile Work Environment! help undeterred now?

That's mega lawyer stuff...

[Chan790]

41. Almost no hostile work environment claims

are ever filed or initiated during employment.

Usually, it goes like this. Environment is hostile. Work quality suffers. Environment becomes more hostile and eventually employee is either: fired, laid-off, quits, or is pushed out. If you go back to read the history up-to and during his termination, that's the exact situation here. It's not immoral, unethical, illegal, or anything else you wish to imply. It's the facts of the matter at hand.

No...not mega-lawyer stuff. At all. No employer in their right mind fights him if he says hostile work environment. The lawyers alone to defend it would cost them more than the bump in premium on the unemployment insurance. That's before he wins (because it's an impossible claim to defend) the hearing on the unemployment...if they lose (and it's 99% they will), he can then sue them for HWE. That's the point...they're not going to put themselves in the cross-hairs when all they have to do to avoid it is not challenge his unemployment. Their lawyer will tell them as much. If he says he's going to bring up HWE; they fold. I'll bet you $5. It's because they know they're guilty and because they know they'll lose.

I'm speaking from experience here. A small part of my job when I was a literacy activist was protecting low-literate and non-English-fluent workers from abuse and exploitation. (He is neither but the game is still functionally the same.) I also won such a claim against an employer myself.

I put this all in one post, rather than responding in all four sub-threads.

[datasuspect]

70. random capitalization and excessive/unusual punctuation filter initializing...

[wildhorses]

8. you have a chance at your rebuttal

where you are given a chance to categorically deny their appeal based on your testimony...

just another inning in the game (sorry, bad analogy)

[undeterred]

15. there's really nothing new to say

its all so silly - it was all lies invented the last couple of days

They can't actually prove what they allege unless they force other people to lie. I can't put anything past them because I never thought they'd go to this much trouble. If they force my ex-supervisor to lie, he'll do it, but he will be tormented and leave, and they will be up shit creek without a paddle without him (although they are much to stupid to realize it).

I don't know why companies don't realize that treating people like crap eventually comes back to them.

[Chan790]

17. Datasuspect has the right idea in post #11

Companies do not like those accusations. They are almost impossible to refute for a company and losing the hearing would put them in a position where you could use the finding against them in a civil case.

[wildhorses]

18. yes, go see a doctor

for stress and anxiety due to workrelated issues...get a script for some kind of anti-anxiety that can be traced back to work caused stress

[Checkstub]

35. Surely you're not suggesting anything not

totally above board. Ethically, morally, and legally.

[undeterred]

21. But that has to take place during the employment

and be documented- its a little late now that I don't work there.

[Checkstub]

37. Well, yeah.

[philosophie_en_rose]

19. Legal Action of Wisconsin - [phone] - Tues & Thurs - 2 to 4pm

If the challenge has no merit, you should not suffer for it. Every state has a free legal advice line run by the state bar association or a non-profit organization. Some communities also have volunteer lawyer programs. Both are usually free to people with low incomes. Or, try the nearest law school's clinic.

If that doesn't work out, some lawyers provide free or low-cost consultations.

Here's a link to Wisconsin's legal aid program - http://www.legalaction.org/unemp2.htm
Legal Action of Wisconsin at [phone] on Tuesdays and Thursdays, from 2-4 p.m. and ask for "Pre-Screening."

Here's a list of U.W.'s legal clinic and other state resources. http://www.wisbar.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Wisconsin_Legal_Services_Agencies

[undeterred]

20. thank you

:hi:

[SPKrazy]

22. Damn Undeterred

that doth sucketh big time!

I can't believe it. Well I can, but only in B*sh's Merikuh does shit like this happen

:hug:

:hug:

:hug:

I'm so sorry, this just sucks

what basis are they trying to take it away on?

[undeterred]

48. the microsoft outlook calendar thingey

i typed it somewhere else

stupidest end users in the whole company are in human resources... they should just be given pads of paper and pencils to do their work

I looked at an hr persons calendar and mentioned it to her- calendars are shared with the whole company unless you unshare them. All the other managers know this, or know how to make appts private.

[SPKrazy]

55. oh man...

:hug:

sorry friend, maybe that won't hold up but shit that sucks

[undeterred]

59. I talked to an employment atty for 5 min today and she laughed

she couldn't believe they would even try that

She said in order to be denied unemployment compensation you have to do something violent or illegal or break rules repeatedly. It has to be really bad. She said this will sound silly at the hearing and the judge will think its a waste of time. The HR guy has to know this. Either he just likes to screw with me, or someone above him, probably, is telling him to push this as far as it will go. They can side with me again, and he can appeal it again. Its just a way of consuming my energy and hurting me personally.

[LSK]

23. that is just sick and twisted

I hope you beat their ass.

Good luck.

[SoCalDemGrrl]

24. Unfortunately most employers fight it since their rates go up with each claim

But if they fired you or laid you off, you are in the right and

you should hold your ground. I also think Legal Aid could help.


Don't take it personally. They are just trying to keep their rates down.

Not a nice thing to do, but desperate times call for desperate measures and most

employers are trying to survive just like the rest of us in this wonderful Bush economy.

[undeterred]

62. But that's unethical

To fabricate that every single person who leaves your company committed gross misconduct- which really should make no one else want to employ them again- just to get out of paying is unfair. You run a business, you pay the costs, and not by screwing with peoples lives. You just convinced me to write to Senator Feingold.

[gr8dane_daddy]

25. My 2 cents...

First of all, don't put the former co-workers in the middle of this predicament. I sympathize with you (been unemployed for a year), but they are trying to protect their jobs. Don't blame them for not talking to you, there may be things the company is threatening them with as well including dismissal.

From my experience in management, the company has to have bulletproof evidence on why to fire someone and deny unemployment. The first guy I ever terminated was a fantastic employee. However he brought a gun to work and I had to let him go. At our hearing, he was claiming he didn't know that bringing a gun to work was against company policy. The company rep (i.e. me)produced documents with his signature stating that bringing firearms on site would result in termination. Case closed.

Both sides have to have all the evidence in front of them to dispute. Typically he said/she said arguments won't hold much water. However if they can produce documents with your signature on it talking about IT usage, etc., then they may have a case. You should have such documents if they exist. However the company can be legally responsible for securing such systems so the blame may lie with them.

On the other hand, since you've been receiving unemployment compensation after being let go and the company is now coming back to deny that claim, you may have a good case. Why did the company all of a sudden want to deny the case? Was there some "new" document that has surface? If so, where's your copy? Finding people to suddenly testify against you is suspect at best.

Now I'm not a lawyer and since I'm from Texas, the unemployment laws may differ. I do wish you the best and hope this may give you some ideas to plan your defense. Take care.

[undeterred]

43. a few things

They've tried to deny it all along. It was allowed 3 weeks ago. The company is appealing it.

They say they have 'exhibits' and 'company representatives'. But I don't think they can say anything new- I think they just think they haven't been heard or that they weren't believed. They will probably bring in my ex co-workers, who know the truth, and force them to lie.

I am in IT. My supervisor knows what I did and showed me how to do it, and does it all the time. It requires no special IT priviliges. If I was fired for it he should be too.

The real problem is that the people in HR don't know how to use the calendar in Microsoft Outlook and they won't allow anyone to show them.

[IntravenousDemilo]

27. Were you part of a union, and is there a union rep you can confer with?

They generally are well versed in labour law and employment practices, and they might even be able to go to bat for you, even if you're no longer employed at the company -- especially if you were fired without cause, or if the company didn't follow to the letter the dismissal procedures mandated by your collective bargaining agreement.

The best thing I can wish you is that you get an even better job tomorrow, and then you can tell your former employers to go fuck themselves. That will feel very, very good. Failing that, you have nothing to lose by making the biggest legal stink you can. Be vindictive if possible.

[Checkstub]

33. Union affiliation is very important.

:hi:

[undeterred]

49. Not part of a union

There are a lot of union employees there, highly skilled labor, and you can just feel the management hatred as some of these men make a lot of money.

Basically regular employees have no protection at all.

I just can't believe I still have to deal with them. I have had to call their Corporate Ethics Hotline several times- to get an official termination letter, to get my last paycheck, and to get my COBRA information. Its like they dragged everything out on purpose.

Its like a really bad breakup.

[IntravenousDemilo]

56. May I recommend, then...

...that you try to contact whatever union was representing the skilled workers, even if you weren't a member? They may be willing to take on management on your behalf. Perhaps if you put it to the rep that "This is why everyone in a given company except management should belong to the union," you'll find agreement from the union. Unions generally have pretty big pockets to handle these sorts of things, and if you show yourself to be (nowadays refreshingly) sympathetic to the whole idea of unions, they'll make you into a test case that they'll want to win. I will admit, it worked for me, but then I've always thought unions to be a good thing. The Union Makes Us Strong.

On a side note, what the heck kind of company has both union and non-union members? I've worked at hospitals where there were several different unions representing different sectors, but at least I was always part of one of them. The only non-union workers were management and doctors (who have their own kind of representation in any case).

Finally, what your ex-company is doing -- that is, only reluctantly giving you an official termination letter and your last paycheque -- is so very, very illegal it's not funny, at least in my province, and I would assume it should be so in a relatively progressive state like Wisconsin.

[undeterred]

61. Its a manufacturing company

with lots of men in skilled trades. I think almost all the workers with certain skills are in unions. Welders, shop guys, engine builders. Lots of other people work in offices, tech support, sales, secretaries, managers. Anyone with a desk is non-union.

The company is headquartered in another state (NC)- so even though its physically in Wisconsin, the corporate decision making comes from somewhere else. Biggest customer is the Department of Defense/Navy and lots of ex-military work there. So that flavors the culture a lot more than being in Wisconsin.

I've never had to deal with a Human Resources department as unprofessional as this one. No matter what the circumstances are under which an employee leaves, usually there are a set of routines that the people go through- paperwork that has to get sent out, etc. Both the employee and the employer want to get it taken care of, and 99 time out of 100 its like clockwork.

This was like pulling teeth. I had to call the ethics hotline and tell them what wasn't getting done every step of the way. I was asking them to do things that they legally had to do and eventually did do. I don't know why they were such assholes about it.

[Checkstub]

28. This isn't uncommon,

because if an employer is found to be by the administrative hearing to have separated their employment relationship with you, through no fault of your own, their rates they must remit to state and federal unemployment/Social Security will rise.
I've been through this several times, usually it's a breeze, if you got laid-off, for instance.
If you were sick, and can prove it, the unemployment administrative law-judges could be swayed to your side.
There are instances where you can voluntarily quit your job, but the tests are severe.
Both parties have much at stake in a determination for benefits in unemployment cases.

[cboy4]

31. Six weeks or longer is not an unreasonable amount of time to

still be looking for a job, especially depending on what kind of work you're looking for!

[undeterred]

42. No, its not

[cboy4]

53. Why are you getting upset with me?

I've been on unemployment and it takes time to research companies, send out resumes, go on interviews, etc.

So I don't think EDD should be on your case so soon about still being unemployed.

I was only trying to offer some friendly help.

[undeterred]

60. I was agreeing with you.

No, its not a long time :hi: :hug:

[cboy4]

63. Good answer!

;)

Sorry for the confusion.

I hope things work out for you okay!

[undeterred]

64. thank you

Its kinda weird in my field though. Every job I've gotten in the last 6 years has been by a recruiter finding me. I've never gotten a job by finding it and applying for it- like I used to before I was in IT. In the computer world there is a lot of contract-to-hire, and things tend to happen really fast. If you have very high in-demand skills (like some programming skills) you can make your resume active on certain websites, and you WILL have a job (or an assignment) in 24 hours. If you are less in demand but willing to travel or move around you can find something faster too.

When I started the last job I got a call on a Thursday, interviewed on Friday, started the job the next Monday. On the other hand- I had a really great interview 2 weeks ago today and never got a word of feedback from the recruiter who sent me. He ignores my emails and phone calls. :shrug: The world is full of crazy people.

[cboy4]

66. Yea, it's hard to figure some people out. You'd think they'd

take into account that people looking for work are generally stressed out (or at least anxious) and would therefore be more promptly responsive either way.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the way things work in today's job climate.

Just try to stay positive and don't give up.

Persistence has generally always paid off for me, despite the frustration looking for employment.

[Callalily]

36. How awful . . .

but remember, you too paid into the system, and truly deserve unemployment benefits. We're all fighting with you undeterred. Sending strength!

[raccoon]

39. What jerks the former employers are--and that's a mild word for them.

Sending :hug: your way.

[undeterred]

45. Thanks.

[Tyler Durden]

71. Don't worry too much.

Unless you were caught having sex with the boss's daughter on the boardroom table, it likely won't fly.

My ex-company contests EVERY unemployment claim.

By the way, contact the Department of Labor: you don't have to fight them for COBRA info: they HAVE TO supply it. They won't go to jail, but maybe the investigation might make the ex boss defecate into his Hart Schafner and Marx suit.