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What "saved" rock and roll after disco? Punk or Metal?

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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:08 PM
Original message
What "saved" rock and roll after disco? Punk or Metal?
I'm gonna go against the tide here and say Metal. 70's era metal bands like AC/DC and Motorhead, for me, were closer to the outlaw ideals of Rock and Roll than, say, the Ramones.

To be honest, I've never *got* the Ramones. I never saw what was so great about them. The Clash and Suicidal Tendencies were the only punk bands I really liked.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. punk saved it
Many rock bands even had that "disco feel" album only later to be invigorated once they heard some brash and nasty punk.

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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
2.  Suicidal Tendencies?
Weren't they a thrash-funk band of the early 90's? Or am I thinking of someone else, or are they considered punk? :shrug:

I'm with you on metal over punk. At least in metal you have to know how to play the damn instrument. Punk is about the most boring music to play that I ever encountered. I know some people love it, but man there's a sore lack of good bass guitar parts in the entire punk genre. Compare with Cliff Burton of Metallica ;-)
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. early 80's skatepunk eventually to become more metal.
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 01:13 PM by bhunt70
I saw ST in 86(?) during the institutionaized days...good times.

edit-spelling
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Cliff Burton was THE man
He and Geezer Butler I think were the greatest bassists in the metal genre.

But Suicidal Tendencies were latecomers to punk. They put out their first album around 84. You may have heard their tune "Institutionalized" ("all I wanted was a Pepsi, and she wouldn't give me one!") They were basically the LA Skate Punk flip side to the Long Island Beastie Boys.

Anyway, after a few albums they went metal, since they actually knew how to play their instruments.
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. Punk Absolutely!
says this old punk-rocker. Metal disintegrated to bad hair-bands in the '80s
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I will agree with you there - Metal died in the 90's
It was sad what happened to metal. Even innovators like Metallica and Megadeth became jokes in the 90's.

But of course in the 90's, the best guitarists from metal teamed with the best vocalists and lyricists from punk to give us some great bands like Mother Love Bone, Alice in Chains, Screaming Trees and, of course, Nirvana.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. While I agree with your assessment...
That it took more technical knowledge to play metal (which I was also heavily into) I think in truth metal was the epitome of the self centered mental masturbation "look at my guitar solo" and ultimately didn't further the rock n roll cause as much as the chaotic nature of punk.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. At the same time disco was getting started
Edited on Sat Jan-10-04 01:24 PM by Gman
so were Aerosmith, Rush, REO Speedwagon and a few more that allowed Rock to survive. The differences were a mindset difference between rock and disco.

Reminds me of my old bumper sticker "Disco Sucks". And with the recent resurgence of disco, I want to print one that says "Disco Still Sucks".
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. there is a resurgence of disco?? n/t
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. Both
Metal proved money making , punk kept the
anti- establishment vibe alive :hi:
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. New Wave saved it!
We are DEVO
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lucidmadman Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Nothing did....
It died when MTV went on the air. Get over it. It's like a trip to a museum now. It's still enjoyable, but it ('rawk') is dead dead dead. It's a cancelled TV show.
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yeah, I agree with this too
Looking back the early 90's stuff that came out of Seattle (from out of nowhere, for most of the country) was the last great gasp of authentic rock/metal in the past 13 years.

That was right when I was in high school. Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, losing virginity, and Bill Clinton's election all in the same few years. Man, those were heady times :-)

I've been waiting for rock to rear its ugly head again in the wake of all the boy bands and Britneys like the Seattle bands after the Poison/Motley Crue hair bands were starting to fade. It doesn't look like it's going to happen since contemporary rock & metal acts are just as corporatized and cloned as Backstreet Boys. My sister listens to O.A.R., Incubus, etc. but they all sound the same to me.

I'm guessing the real action is over in the hip-hop/rap scene, but I don't know enough to say. The only 3 CD's I've bought in 5 years (damn grad school) have been one by classical guitarist Sharon Isbin, Bela Fleck's Perpetual Motion, and the latest by Barenaked Ladies, so I'm so out of touch I have no clue anymore...

I think I'll put on 'Ten' and rock out for a bit.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
12. Punk
The New York Dolls, Ramones, The Tubes, and Sex Pistols.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. punk
no doubt about that.hair bands just about destroyed "rock n roll". actually the only people who were playing "real" rock n roll were outlaw country bands...
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I'm not talking about the hair-farm Metal bands
like Nelson, Warrant or any other Cinderella clones...

I'm talking about AC/DC, Motorhead...or later bands like Metallica and Slayer.
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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. Both
Motorhead and Ramones fed the grassroots of rock n' roll's blue collar roots. The bands in Cleveland, New York, LA, San Fran and Seatle took over from there.

If it wasn't for Motorhead there wouldn't have Metallica or Anthrax. If it wasn't for Metallica and Anthrax there wouldn't have been Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains or Foo Fighters. If it wasn't for those bands there wouldn't be System of a Down, Tool, Lincoln Park, Ecubus or Slpiknot.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. So...
>> If it wasn't for those bands there wouldn't be System of a Down, Tool, Lincoln Park, Ecubus or Slpiknot.

So that's who I blame! :)
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Don't include Tool with those other bands.
Tool is one of the best live bands I have ever seen and I have been going to many shows since I was like 14 or 15 in the late 70's. I have seen both Linkin Park and Slipknot at an Ozzfest. :puke:
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sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. What's wrong with System and Tool?
I just put the other bands up there for reasons of style changing.
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45th Med Donating Member (559 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thank God for PUNK
I went thru the Punk phase of my life in Jr. High/High School, thank god I didn't go Metal!
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
20. Saved it from what, exactly?
In hindsight, I believe we can appreciate the music made during the post-disco early eighties out of its context- certainly the pop music of today pales in comparison to The Police, Squeeze, Hall and Oates....at least IMO. Now if it's ROCK we're talking about....

I hate questions like this beacuse it implies that somehow "Rock" music was dying or something during those years, due to disco- thousands of Rock critics make this same mistake. What was really hurting the music was the tightening up of the AOR radio format initiated by Lee Abrams...this is the guy who restricted playlists based on the whims of housewives and non-concertgoers; he claimed that when he polled listeners to determine what songs should be played on the radio, he discounted the opinions of the poepl attending concerts and buying albums because he "got a tremendous bias," presumably a pro-Rock bias.

Factor number 2: Punk was not given the promotional dollars that were afforded ELO or Journey, in fact, major labels viewed punk as a novelty and gave up after letting the first albums by thieir token punkers die on the vine. So the music had to reach mass via word of mouth, fanzines, independent labels, etc. Metal was also dead to the major labels by this point and had to survive via this method as well. The two genres are almost the same except for textural differences anyways, as the hybridization that took place in the mid-80s thru Black Flag, Metallica, et al. has borne out.

Another contributing factor was the mega-success of Fleetwood Mac and ELO and other AOR mainstays, which was unprecedented and forced record companies to scramble and consolidate their rosters. Hundreds of promising-to-great bands were dropped from their labels because the big boys were now aiming for the level of a 10-million seller like "Rumors;" simply being good musicians and selling in the range of 100,000 to 500,000 wasn't good enough. Gone were the days when we saw albums like "An Evening With WildMan Fischer" or Skip Spencce's "Oar" released by major Labels- they were finished humoring the underground and now only courted the BIG markets. So the diversity and invention we were hearing in the undergound bubbling up to the surface via the Rock record industry wasn't getting air anymore by 1978.

An argument could be made that punk itself did more damage to the music than disco, beacause of it's famous "DIY" aesthetic- without the need for musicianship, the standards became lower and lower, and the listeners soon became accustomed to music played without skill or nuance, and singers without ability. This was not always the case, though...Punk produced bands of capable musicians as well as scamming no-talents.

However, there was great rock music being made during this time by punkers and metallers alike, AND by mainstream rock dudes as well...to single out one form over another gives tunnel-vision to a student of rock history. The myth that it as disco "killing" rock is just that: a myth. In truth, disco barely troubled rock listenership, instead attracting its own core of devotess. Sometimes the genres crossbred, providing new and innovative methods of producing rock (cf the Stones during this period, Chic, Flying Lizards).

Consult Joe Carducci's "Rock and the Pop NArcotic" for further inquiry.
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LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. Punk DID save it... but... it is overstaying its welcome...
i mean, how long can we really listen to 5 guys hash out barre cords and scream into a mic... i think punk is really overrated. anyone could write a song in 20 min with a simple 3 cord progression and write trite lyrics about how life sucks.

i really like metal more. thiers some thought to writing a song... highly technical solos... ect. i find punk just... boring and uninteresting

-LK
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TheBlob Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
23. Which one aged better? (Talking strictly 'appearances' here)
I've been a fan of both by the way, but:


The Punk movement (which led to New Wave, and then Alternative)
spawned not only changes in music but in culture.
Twenty-five years later, the Punk style has bled into so many aspects of society, that even today they are still borrowing the Punk 'look' from everything to the marketing and fashion world to the thousands of up and coming bands trying to get a break - and it still has a way of looking timely.

By the '90's all the 'big hair' bands were sporting short, spiky, dyed haircuts and wearing clothes sold on St. Mark's Place - looking almost identical to Punk acts from a decade previous. The Metal 'look' had to change to stay vital.
It borrowed quite a bit from the Punk movement. The Punk look, for the most part hasn't changed. The world changed to accommodate Punk.

Sure over the years there have been embarrassing styles from both genre's (and the New Wave 'look' certainly hasn't aged well), but to this day the style of Punk is something that has remained consistent as an influence on society, where as circa 1980's Metal garb is stuck in a place in time that society seems fine with keeping there.
It just hasn't aged well.

Not that Bon Jovi is Metal, but whip out an old picture of that band from the early 1980's (or any of the dozens of other popular bands who shared that same style and were considered Metal by the 'mainstream') and just wait for the roars of laughter.

Whip out a picture of The Clash from around the same time, and you not only see the present day, but you still see the future.



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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-10-04 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. Punk.
Metal almost killed it again.
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