Why is horseracing praised and cockfighting illegal?

[Orrex]

The former is lauded as the noble pinnacle of animal athleticism, while the latter is condemned as an abominable abuse of animals.

[wildhorses]

1. have you ever been to a cockfight? n/t

[Orrex]

4. Not since college--don't remind me

My days of hazing are way in the past.

[AngryAmish]

21. Yes

[wildhorses]

35. me too

:yoiks:

[JackBeck]

2. Because the horses don't try and kill each other.

:shrug:

[Orrex]

6. But the sport itself is destructive to the horses

Sure, we have cases of spectacular destruction like Barbaro, but even a successful horse has, what, a few years before it's considered past its prime?

It seems to me that anyone who'd weep for the fallen Barbaro is equally obligated to weep for every other horse in the sport whose demise is hastened by a physically punishing industry.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

9. You don't know much about the sport, do you?

Successful horses generally have a fairly lengthy -- and good -- life post-retirement.

Secretariat lived for another 16 years after winning the Triple Crown and sired a LOT of other horses in his 16 years at stud. Sounds like a pretty good life to me...

"In 1974, Secretariat was inducted into the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame.

Secretariat became a beloved figure with fans and non-fans of horse racing coming to see Big Red at Claiborne farm, where he stood at stud from 1974 through 1989, living in the same stall which was once home to his sire, Bold Ruler. Secretariat sired a substantial number of major stakes winners, including 1986 Horse of the Year Lady's Secret, 1988 Preakness and Belmont Stakes winner Risen Star, and the 1990 Melbourne Cup winner Kingston Rule, who still holds the race record. His "failure" as a stallion was mostly due to his inability to produce offspring as great as he was — an unrealistic expectation, even for a truly great horse. He sired as many as 600 foals. His blood flows through many other notable racehorses, including 2004 Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner Smarty Jones, and he is most noted as a broodmare sire, being the broodmare sire of 1992 Horse of the Year and successful sire A.P. Indy." (from his Wikipedia entry)

[Orrex]

12. How long was Secretariat's racing career?

And I'm sure that a retired rooster would live a long and happy rooster life after leaving the cockfighting ring.

Hey, if you like to watch the horses run around the track, more power to you. But it seems no less exploitive than a thousand other forms of animal-based entertainment. Of course, those aren't "The Sport of Kings," so I guess that makes all the difference.

[mondo joe]

15. Retired rooster? Cockfights usually result in the death of one or both birds.

The birds, even those that don't die, suffer in cockfights. The birds can't escape from the fight, regardless of how exhausted or injured they are. Injuries typically include punctured lungs, broken bones, and pierced eyes. The birds' legs are often fitted with razor-sharp steel blades or with gaffs, designed to puncture and mutilate.

How many retired cockfighters do you think there are?

[Orrex]

18. Okay, maybe that's the difference

Horses are retired before they're destroyed by their sport, whereas fighting roosters are not.

But really, that's a difference in degree, rather than kind.

[mondo joe]

19. If half or mor of the horses were killed by being in a race I think there's be

a significant outcry.

The objective of horse racing is not to destroy the horses. The objective of cockfighting is.

[RegimeChange2008]

43. Consider the life of a race horse past his prime....

They get to run around in the pasture, eat grass and get laid. A lot. Because a lot of people want their babies. What horse could ask for a better life than that? Granted, every once in a while there is a tragic case like Barbaro's, but then that's the same odds with humans or any other animals. Tragically, not everyone lives to be a ripe old age.

[XemaSab]

3. As far as I'm aware

they don't put razor blades on the feet of the horses and encourage them to attack each other. :shrug:

[JVS]

37. That would be quite a show

[BarenakedLady]

5. Good question.

Let's add greyhound racing in there as well. At least most of the horses are treated kindly.

I'll never forget going to St. John on my honeymoon and driving past signs for cock fighting. I was literally sick to my stomach and even wrote a letter to someone (can't remember who, government person) since it is techinically part of the United States, where cock fighting is illegal. I got back some mumbo jumbo about it being part of the culture and it's been done for generations, blah blah blah...

[skygazer]

7. Actually most greyhounds are treated kindly too

Please don't misread that to mean I approve of greyhound racing. I don't.

I worked in it, however, for almost ten years and do know something about it. Although there are horrifying stories that come up in the media now and again, they are in no way representative of the treatment of the majority of the animals - they're the exception.

However....

Dogs have big litters. If there are 7 pups in a litter and only one or two are fast enough to make it, the others are put down. Sometimes none of them are good enough. And they're young. Less than 2 quite often. Sometimes they get sent to an experimental lab - that's even worse. I couldn't take the waste anymore - I adopted a few ex racers and got out of it. And even though the greyhound adoption industry has grown, far too many die at a young age for my tastes.

Horses have a better shot of finding a home - they have fewer offspring and can be used for pleasure riding. But I don't like horse racing either. The horses are run at far too young an age - their bones aren't fully set yet. They're babies. And they're run too hard too young.

[BarenakedLady]

8. I had an ex-boyfriend who worked at a race track...

I've seen the inside of those cages, stacked on each other, so small, they could barely move. Granted this was about 20 years ago, perhaps things have gotten better since then. But those dogs were not treated kindly, not in the least. This was Lincoln Greyhound Race Track in RI.

I've always wanted to adopt an ex-racer, they are so sweet and content to lie around most of the day. LoL. I don't blame them!

[AngryAmish]

22. Cockfighting is not illegal in the US

Federalism thingy.

On edit: It is illegal in about 48 states (last time I looked). There was a bill in congress last few years to make interstate transportation of cockfighting things illegal. I do not remember if the bill became law.

[BarenakedLady]

47. Thanks for the info

Sucks though.

[liberal hypnotist]

10. The Sport of Kings?

Most good horses live better than a lot of people. The evil of horse racing is in the treatment of nags. They juice them up to win long shot races. Imagine yourself zapped with a load of speed and put on a construction site. If your old and out of shape like me you get injuries and sick. From the inside horse racing ,overall, is not animal friendly. How about the addicted gamblers. Same with dog racing. Here I go ranting and raving.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. Hey, yeah.

Meanwhile, hamsterballs are legal, but bear baiting is illegal.

I'M CALLING CONGRESS NOW!!!1!

[mondo joe]

13. I'm pretty sure if horses were thrown in a pen to do nothing but damage and

even kill each other, there'd by an outcry.

[GumboYaYa]

14. Quarter horses love to run......

I have always felt like our horses were happiest when they could open up for a good long run.

[Deep13]

16. Two reasons:

1. Death in horse racing is accidental, not inevitable.

2. Horse racing: sport of kings.
Cock fighting: sport of smelly lowlife crowded into someones basement.

[flvegan]

17. Horse racing is like the circus.

You see the product of any mistreatment, not the mistreatment itself. While I do think that some of the horses are treated quite well, I don't believe that to be the norm.

Enjoyment in watching animals brutalize and kill each other isn't something I understand.

[KurtNYC]

23. Specifically, WHAT mistreatment?

You think MOST race horses are mistreated...based on what?

[flvegan]

48. It would appear

that the training they endure at such a young age is detrimental to their long-term health. There also appears to be a good amount of doping in horse racing. I also don't see how whipping an animal so that he/she will run faster is anything but mistreatment.

Lastly, since so many of them do wind up in a slaughterhouse, I'd say that's proof enough. There's graphic proof taken from inside a horse slaughterhouse out there, but I won't post it here.

That said, I'm no veterinarian, nor do I have experience with every racing horse in every country in which it's legal to do so. Therefore, I can only speak to what I've read/learned over the years (what my statements are "based on").

[KurtNYC]

20. Horses run

That's what they do. Their fight or flight arsenal is almost all flight (as in running the heck away). Thoroughbreds cost anywhere from $6,000 to $2mil and most receive excellent care. Barbaro would have been put down last year if it weren't for his potential stud value.

Many race horses have pets of their own: cats, dogs, I have even heard of a goat. They are herd animals and crave the company of other animals and they get that company. They are walked and bathed daily. Their owners and handlers LOVE horses. It is not uncommon for horses to still be running competitively at age 9. Most are retired when they can't win races anymore -- not because of injury.

[Orrex]

24. You make a really interesting point

Barbaro would have been put down last year if it weren't for his potential stud value.

In all of the (countless) news broadcasts I've heard on this subject, Barbaro's owners have always sounded to me like people whose expensive car was destroyed, rather than people who lost a beloved animal companion. That's not Barbaro's fault, nor do I expect that the owners ever falsely represented themselves, but it really bothers me that these horses are often considered little more than profit-generating commodities.

[KurtNYC]

32. When a horse breaks a leg in the wild

it is done for. Horses have all kinds of instinctual fears that govern the way they protect their legs. They won't step on round rocks, other animals, etc. Many racehorses will jump around any water that pools up on the track. Ghandi had people lie down when horse-mounted military tried to break up their demonstrations because horses will not step on people. Horses stand up their whole life. They sleep standing up. Their legs are survival so they protect them.

But it happens. And sad as it seems, a horse that can't stand or walk is in a kind of mental terror. They had some hope that they could fix Barbaro's leg. In hindsight it may have been better if they put the horse down last year.

Owning racehorses is a way to SPEND money -- not a way to make it. The owners love their horses and horses in general. They usually love them too much to watch them suffer this long.

[Orrex]

33. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

You said that Barbaro would've been put down last year if not for his potential stud value. Well, does that mean that he was kept alive just so that the owners could spend more money on him, or so that they could donate his offspring to charity?

Sounds like the bottom line was involved here somewhere.

I don't doubt that most horse owners do love their animals, but this case simply foregrounds the commoditization of these beloved creatures.

[KurtNYC]

41. No I said they thought they had a chance to save the horse

Is it so hard to believe that the owner's loved Barbaro? And again it wasn't about money:

Barbaro's Owners Could Have Euthanized Him, Collected Millions

Another sign that the effort to save Kentucky Derby winner Barbaro isn't just a matter of dollars-and-cents: His owner, Gretchen Jackson, said Barbaro was insured, and that the premiums grew after he won the Florida Derby and the Kentucky Derby -- victories that made him worth many millions of dollars at stud.

One horse breeder said if Roy and Gretchen Jackson had decided not to go through the expense of trying to save their horse after his severe injuries in the Preakness, they could have simply gone to the insurance company and collected -- and "there would be no questions."
...
Jackson said her only hope for him is "that he lives a painless life."

More (facts) at:
http://www.nbc11.com/sports/9266539/detail.html

[Orrex]

45. Yeah, but you specifically mentioned using him as a stud

When Barbaro's leg was first broken, his owner was on NPR the next day, and she was oddly calm and unfazed by the whole thing, as if they were simply needed to put a new coat of paint on their patio, instead of massive reconstructive surgery for a beloved animal companion.

I would be happy to learn for certain that his owners loved him, but it would surprise me somewhat, given what I've seen and heard throughout this whole process.

[northzax]

46. do ranchers love their cows?

shepherds their sheep? Barbaro was a work animal, an investment. Yes, many horse people grow to love their horses, but they are also (the good ones, at least) pragmatists.

remember, Barbaro's owners (Lael Stables) paid at least $125,000 for the stud fee to breed him (Dynaformer out of La Ville Rouge) and the stabling and training fees (plus entry fees for races) to get him to the starting line at the Preakness. Even assuming they owned La Ville Rouge (which I don't know for certain) this was a several hundred thousand dollar investment. (true, they are Rockefellers, but still). Mike Martz, the trainer, has his own interesting history (he survived the crash of United Flight 232 in Iowa in 1989 and saved three children from almost certain death (111 people died overall))

but to point out one other thing- it costs just as much to keep a bad racehorse, or a retired one, alive as it does a good one (except for insurance, I guess) so all the living and retired horses out there are testament to that love.

[CottonBear]

36. Horses can and do sleep lying down. They can also sleep standing up.

My horse takes an after lunch nap almost every day unless it's raining and muddy. A herd of horses usually sleep in groups with one standing to keep watch for predators. SOmetimes they sleep with their feet tucked under them and their nose resting on the ground and sometimes they sprawl out flat on their sides. They love to roll (sometimes all the way over) and scratch themselves on the back and take dust baths. They don't lie down for long periods of time because their internal organs are put under pressure by the position. Of course, foals and yearling s sleep more than adult equines.

[Heidi]

28. With all due respect, cockfighting advocates make a similar argument

in defense of that "sport":

"People think these roosters, that we make them fight . . . They're born that way," Ratliff says. "It's inherited from their ancestors like we inherited it from our ancestors." http://www.houstonpress.com/Issues/2007-01-18/news/feature_full.html

The man in the above-referenced article also claims to take very good care of his retired fighting cocks. Little is said by the promoters of these sports about the inhumane intervention necessary for both race horses and fighting fowl to make thes "sports" profitable for the promoters and spectators, but I have grave doubt that any of folks involved are primarily motivated by what comes "naturally" for the animals. :shrug:

[hedgehog]

42. My roosters fight and I've even seen one of the older hens challenge

a young rooster BUT in almost 20 years, I've only seen one rooster get injured. Most of the fight involves a lot of hackle raising and head bobbing. They will jump at or over each other several times. If they do make contact, it's only for a second or two and then they back off and go into the hackle thing again. Generally speaking, it's more bluff than anything else and lasts only a minute or so. The loser backs down very quickly and runs away. It's kind of neat to watch all the prancing around, but the point is that the birds are in full control of the situation and aren't really out to kill each other, just intimidate.

[mondo joe]

50. Like most same species tiffs - they usually are about making a show

and NOT having to fight each other.

[zappa_parappa]

39. Horses do run, but they don't normally sprint, and not with someone on their backs

My girlfriend is a horse trainer and has seen many good horses put down because of racing. I don't know the exact details, but making a horse run at those speeds with someone on their back wears down their bones till they become pointy and damage the horse, until they need to be put down.

[Roon]

52. Cute!!

eom

[Deja Q]

25. One encourages lean muscle meat for dogs to eat; the other draws blood.

[ileus]

26. Why waste time with animal sports? Motocross anyone?

I can take a 3500 buck Honda CR125 and out run every 20 million dollar horse on earth.

[Orrex]

27. And no one gets upset if you have sex in the car

:woohoo:

upon reflection: Well, unless it isn't your own car...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. several reasons.

primarily horse racing is less violent and less destructive to horses.

secondly, its traditionally a richer persons sport.

[Madspirit]

30. On the surface...

That seems like a dumb question...<g>...due to the horses not fighting and all. ...but it is not a dumb question. The lifespan of a racehorse is less than half that of a non-race horse. The sport is disgusting. ...both are. Anyone who is cruel to any animal should meet the same fate. IMO.
Madspirit

[Orrex]

31. That's an improvement

Most of my seemingly dumb questions really are dumb. Nice to see that I can get it together sometimes!

[wildhorses]

34. can we throw bullfighting into the ring?

or what about the running with the bulls?























i guess in the end it is all a bunch of bull:hide:

[JVS]

38. I think you'd have a point if the format for racing were run them all until one horse is surviving

But that's not what happens. Usually all horses survive without injury.

[Madspirit]

40. ...and yet

Their lifespan is shortened by about half.
Madspirit

[JVS]

49. Compared to what?

Are you comparing this to work-horses (which don't really exist any more)or to the horses that are basically kept as pampered pets?

[jobycom]

44. That's like asking why gladiator fights are frowned on while track is not.

Beyond that, i don't see any discussion. I can understand an argument arguing that horse racing is bad, but comparing it to cockfighting... you need a stronger moral compass if you are seriously asking that.

[mondo joe]

51. I've always wondered that. Gladiators are hot!

Well they are.