staying in a marriage

[Bertha Venation]

Poll question: staying in a marriage

I'm curious about DUer's beliefs/attitudes toward marriage; specifically, what level of commitment do you believe in? Do you think it's truly "til death do us part?" Or is it "til the spark's gone?" or is it "stay together til the kids are grown, then hit the door?"

My vote: for me, it's "til death do us part."

Note: this thread does not address spousal abuse (physical or emotional). My opinion: "one smack, one more chance. Two smacks, you are out the door, bud. Committment flies out the f'ing window if you're going to hit me." Same, I think, for infidelity, although personally I think I'd be more willing to forgive that than being hit.

[dodgerartful]

1. um, one smack and ya

shoot'em, thats the law around here.

[southerngirlwriter]

2. I'm with you, but....

it is REALLY important to choose well BEFORE you get married. Be as picky as you like.

My mother got pregnant and got married waaaay too young. There came a point when it was obvious that her husband (not my biological father) was a devastating, emotionally crippling influence on me. He could not accept me, I guess because I wasn't "his," and yet she had a child (my younger sister) by him, to whom he was a pretty good father.

That kind of thing is complicated. Should she have left him, depriving my sister of an intact home with both her parents, to spare me? How does the fact that she couldn't financially support us on her own come into play? She did the best she could, decided to stay, and now my sister is happily well-adjusted and successful, and I've been in the psych unit quite a lot and had lots of therapy. LOL. Seriously, I'm okay now, but for a long time, I wasn't. That kind of situation is no-win.

If I ever marry, I will go into it with "till death do us part" as my absolute commitment, and will stick to that unless he becomes an unrepentant cheater or starts hitting me.

I chose "other," however, because for people who are already married, it's not always possible to serve everyone's best interests, at least not all at the same time.

[supernova]

10. Don't forget Verbal Abuse

on your list of "no can dos"

A person doesn't have to cheat or be physically abusive to cause harm. Verbal abuse and pschologically controlling behaviors can be equally as bad, but they don't leave scars people can see. :-(

[Booberdawg]

15. Again, supernova

you always impress the hell out of me.

I agree 100%

[Kathy in Cambridge]

35. Absolutely-Verbal Abuse Can Do Permanent Damage

Bruises heal but words are permanent, IMO.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

3. Why promise to stay together forever if you don't mean it?

[toddzilla]

4. youve never known anyone that has ever changed in thier life?

people change, some for the better, some not.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. I didn't say people don't change.

[LWolf]

6. I believe you keep your commitments.

If you commit to "'til death do us part," you stick with it. If you don't mean it, don't make the commitment. Change the words in your vows. Be clear about what you are committing to. If you care about your partner, you will care enough to be open and honest about your level of commitment.

That said, I believe that I can dissolve that commitment if my partner violates theirs in some way. I'm not chained. Violate your side of it, and I'm free to make other choices. Which I did.

Spoken from the distance of 2 failed marriages, one 10 years in length, one 12. I never failed in my commitment. I became free to make other choices.

[SheilaT]

7. I voted other because

a poll cannot accurately capture the specifics of various situations.

I've been married once and once only (so far) for twenty-three years. Like all couples we've had our ups and downs and I hope it lasts till the death do us part thing. But that's this particular marriage.

Other relationships are best ended. Some people don't try hard enough, and others stay in something that should have been put to rest long before.

There are as many reasons for divorce as there are couples divorcing.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. It is individual

I am the child of divorced parents. My brother has been married three times. I have been married once, to a man that I accepted as the most sacred trust given to me by God (Sufi wedding ceremony), and I can't imagine leaving this wonderful person who is also my spiritual partner.

[Bunny]

9. Bertha - I admit to some astonishment about the smacking part.

You'd let him/her get away with smacking you once? Why? Anyone smacking me will be doing it for the first and last time. It's NEVER okay, or deserving of another chance. I'm surprised...

[southerngirlwriter]

12. I have the same "policy" as Bertha V....

because once, about three years ago, in an extreme situation, I punched someone in the nose. Hard. Didn't break it, but messed it up pretty good.

It was an extreme situation, and it was brought to bear by a variety of factors and stressors, some within my control and some not within my control.

I am not a violent person, and that was my only such physical outburst since early childhood. I learned from it and have never allowed myself to get into such a state again -- or even anywhere close to it.

So, under the principle of the Golden Rule, I would give a husband the same grace my friend in that situation (we're still friends today) gave me --- and allow ONE "second chance" if it were an analogous situation (i.e., an extreme circumstance, and if something was learned from it and it never happened again.)

[Bertha Venation]

29. I'm a forgiving sort, but not a fool.

Arguments can get heated and people can lose control. If the smacker showed instant contrition & repentance, and if the smacker attended at least a few counseling sessions and displayed an obvious desire to ward off out-of-control behavior in the future -- yes, I'd give her one more chance.

Just one. The second one would mean divorce. I wouldn't put up with it after hearing a promise that it would never happen again.

Forgiving, and offering a second chance, does not imply that the first time it was okay, and the smacker would know it.

I don't recommend that all women should follow this path -- hell no. This is just me. YMMV.

[salin]

11. Other: Wolverines!

:D

[Melsky]

13. Wait a really long time before splitting

I'm very committed to my marriage, and before breaking up would work long and hard on it, for years if neccessary. But people do change, and I think after a while it is better to break up than to stay in a relationship because you feel you have to.

[retread]

14. "til she votes republican"

*

[THUNDER HANDS]

16. I plan on marrying the next girl who says she loves me

I'm getting old here. My parents were already married at my age and they had me less than 3 years later.

And once I am married, I think I'd stay in it as long as I could. If there was going to be a divorce, I bet she'd be the one to initiate it.

[southerngirlwriter]

17. I love you, Magic Rat.

We have great weather in Alabama, and there's LOTS of opportunities to work for the progressive cause here.

Whaddya say? ;-)

[THUNDER HANDS]

18. hmm....Magic Rat moving to Alabama?

Would people beat me up for not having a southern accent? And if they would, are you gonna protect me. Because when I do, finally, get a SO I'd like her to be my wife/bodyguard. :D

[southerngirlwriter]

20. nope nope nope

I don't have a Southern accent. I did when I was a kid, but my Grandma (who grew up with "Finishing School" and elocution lessons) helped me drop it "so people won't assume a smart girl like you is a hillbilly idiot." (GOD, do I miss my Grandma!!)

This page contains almost everything you need to know:

http://www.3wave.com/~newsy/tips.htm

(This is my favorite and I have found it to be 100% accurate):

• If you do run your car into a ditch, don't panic. Four men in the cab of a four-wheel-drive with a 12-pack of beer and a tow chain will be along shortly. Don't try to help them. Just stay out of their way. This is what they live for.

[THUNDER HANDS]

21. oh good

Next question I have....

Is it considered impolite to refuse food from someone in the South, especially if you don't like a lot of deep-fried stuff?

[southerngirlwriter]

25. It depends.

At a church potluck, you have to put at least a bite's worth of food from every dish on your plate. Whether you eat it or not is up to you, but it's a big insult if you are seen choosing Sister Sally's fried potatoes over Sister Suzi's fried potatoes.

Otherwise, nah. You can get away with a weird diet by saying you have a "stom'ch c'ndition." (My Grandma taught me that one, too. LOL.)

[THUNDER HANDS]

26. alright....so you wanna marry me or what?

:D

[southerngirlwriter]

27. I shall have to think about it, my dear Rat.

I'll get back to you soon. ;-)

[GOPisEvil]

34. You're getting old?!?!? STFU!!!!!

I've got you beat by 10 years. Old...give me a break.

[DoNotRefill]

19. 'till death do us part....

that's the advantage to having a wife who knows guns. If I tried to beat her, she'd shoot me. Everybody's gotta sleep sometime.

[Booberdawg]

22. I didn't vote because I couldn't decide

BUT! For sure, if someone took one swing at me, he would NEVER get another chance.

I would never get married. I suspect my family history has something to do with this.

My father has been married 3 times, (divorced twice)

My mother has been married and divorced twice.

My first step mother (whom I am closest to) has been married 3 times, (and divorced 3 times).

My first step father has been married 5 times, (and divorced 3 times - 1 wife passed away)

You could not PAY me to marry anyone. So, for DAMN sure, if some asshole took a swing at me - he would be HISTORY. As in YESTERDAY!

I am careful not to engage in verbal or mental abuse; I would not allow anyone to impose that upon me.

Having said all of that, I can be as loyal and giving as a fucking dog. And I have no regrets for having done so. I just won't do it anymore. I'm tired.

[ewagner]

23. The hardest part to remember

...is that people and situations are always evolving. Neither my wife nor I are the same people we were when we first married. I don't think either of us have the same "qualities" we saw in each other back then.

I've always been anxious to see what happens next...been doing it for 29 years now. We're comfortable with each other, like two old friends.

[MaineDem]

24. 29 years here, too

We've both changed a lot but we've changed together.

[Nikia]

28. Death do us part

Marriage isn't suppose to a selfish thing that is just about what we are getting. That is why it is a committment. Many couples do divorce when one or both of them has a crisis like losing a long time, high paying job, bankruptcy, chronic illness, or loss of a child or other person of personal importance. That isn't what marriage is about. It is about being supportive of your marriage partner even when hard times come upon them or both of you. It is about standing together against the world. If you only want a committment until the spark is gone, one should not marry. Intense lust can only last so long. Some couples go through phases of spark.
I don't think that everyone is a good candidate for marriage.

[Deesh]

30. Joan Didion --

-- said in one of her essays, "Marriage is the classic betrayal." Does she mean betrayal of self, of goals, of another? Does anyone have any ideas on this?

[MaryBear]

31. I voted

"til death do us part," but really wanted another choice, "til death do us part while we both learn, grow, and work at being happily married."

[camero]

32. ambivalence

doesn't really matter one way or the other. If it happens it happens and if it doesn't then it doesn't.

If I were in a marriage, it would be "til death do us part".

[populistmom]

33. I voted try really really hard (The 3 A's)

These are grounds in my opinion to leave:
Abuse
Adultery
Addiction

My parents were married and divorced from each other twice before I was 20. Even now, divorced for years, they still have this co-dependency thing I find seriously disturbing. I got married way too young, when pregnant (and I let myself be a doormat by even getting pregnant to begin with given our age difference). A cheating instance happened very early in our marriage when I was extremely vulnerable that to this day, he denies despite evidence, and for a long time I did as well, because I was so determined to make my marriage last and succeed NO MATTER WHAT. (And I'm the one who has had to deal with his jealousy issues even though I never strayed.) In retrospect, I might have been better going then. I turned a blind eye to addictive behaviors for years because I was too afraid to think it couldn't possibly work.

Now, the irony is he's overall doing much better. He's working on so many things and career-wise, he's always going forward, but after so many years of thinking NO MATTER WHAT and putting my, as I later faced, my soul, on the sidelines, I've lost most of the feelings I had. It's very sad really and it's going to take a lot in the next few years if we are to be saved and I just don't know what I have left to give. By the way, I'm not writing anything my husband doesn't already know at this point.

My issues aside, anything other than these three things can be solved. Perhaps even this stuff can be worked out under honest, communicative circumstances. Other stuff like sexual incompatibility or financial problems can be worked out. Stuff like one wants kids and the other doesn't could be a problem, but hopefully, that's discussed way before marriage.

Sorry for the rant, but I did rant because, well, I felt like it tonight.

[AlienGirl]

36. Marriage vows are a crock

My husband and I leaned on each other through thick and thin. He even waited till I was three days out of radiation therapy before leaving me!

It seems I was just not the person he wanted. He wanted someone more grounded, normal, responsible, and adult; and he didn't want a depressive, or someone who hung out on the Net so much, and the spark was gone, and I didn't respect myself enough for him to respect me. So now he has a stable, normal woman to raise my kids with him--and she's healthy, too; none of that pesky cancer stuff for her.

I've come to believe Tom Leykis on this one: no one *really* means what they say in the marriage vows.

Tucker

[Randi_Listener]

37. Exactly.

No one actually adheres to the commitment. They stay until the shine wears off and cut bait.

[Bertha Venation]

39. I'm sorry about your experience, but with all due respect

you and Tom Leykis are wrong. Even if it's just one couple, one insignificant little couple in Southern Maryland, this *one* couple who mean every word of our vows every day of our lives show that you're wrong.

I am truly sorry about what you're living with.

[AlienGirl]

40. Eight years ago...

Eight years ago, I would have said the same thing. Eight years ago, I too believed we were living our vows a hundred percent, falling more in love each day, and that we would never end up apart.

You just never know.

"Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure."--Housman

Tucker

[Bertha Venation]

41. yes, time frequently changes things

Again, I'm sorry.

[kdmorris]

42. Off Topic, but what part of Southern Maryland

are you in? We moved to Florida in 1998, but I grew up around the Waldorf/La Plata area.

I kind of miss the trees and the space there. It's pretty congested down here in South Florida.

[Bertha Venation]

48. Hi, kdmorris

We live in Waldorf, near St. Paul's Episcopal (Piney Church parish). Oh, my lord, the trees! I grew up in So. Cali., lived all my life there & moved out here three years ago. I'm still not over the trees, or Spring.

[kdmorris]

49. Ahhhh yes! Spring

I miss the seasons too. Closest thing we have to seasons here is that you can open the windows in winter and don't have to run the air conditioner! But there is no first warm day, when all the dogwoods bloom and everyone is just feeling so happy...

Of course, we don't freeze in the winter down here either. :D

[Bertha Venation]

50. oh, man, it's only Jan. 2....

now I'm trying to banish thoughts of blooming dogwoods. :7

Believe it or not I'm praying for snow. My eldest nephew rec'd a trip to visit us as a Xmas gift, along with snow clothes. He arrives next Tuesday. <fingers crossed>

[kdmorris]

51. I can believe it

I love snow.. provided I'm on one side of the window with a roaring fire in the fireplace and the snow is on the other. :D

Hope you get some for your nephew, though. My daughters have forgotten what snow looks like and they actually do miss it. Of course, they never had to drive to work in it either. :D

[DoNotRefill]

44. I disagree...

the value of marriage vows depends entirely upon their worth to the people making them.

If one or both of the people making the vows are dilettantes, they're not worth much. If both parties really mean them and live by them, they're the foundation for a lifetime relationship.

Sounds like your ex-husband is a real asshole.

[bubblesby2002]

38. Option #1

I chose "till death do us part" because I was married for a long time and then my husband got cancer and died within ten weeks of his diagnosis. I thought that I would spend forever with him.

It's now been two years and I just got through another Christmas and New Year's without him. And I think I'm feeling stronger now.

[Randi_Listener]

43. Thoughts and prayers to you.

Keep smiling.

[bubblesby2002]

45. Thanks

I appreciate the thought

[foreigncorrespondent]

46. Until death us do part.

MY partner could screw up and cheat on me tomorrow. She could screw up and commit murder tomorrow, but no matter what, I love her, and I will always love her. And because of the love we share, we can work through any of the hassles that will come up in our relationship.

When love is true, it is true, ya know?

[jobycom]

47. Doesn't matter what you believe if your spouse believes something else

If you believe til death, forsaking all others, and they believe til the next good one comes along, with a few along the way for recreation and exercise, then your beliefs get trumped.

The only good marriages are either arranged in cultures where all other options are closed, or where two people both believe til death, no matter what either does to the other. All others will end in divorce. The only way to not get a divorce is to just not get one, no matter what happens. No one married over five years will not have encountered at least one divorceable offense in that time. If you just get divorced, then you stay together. But both have to believe that.

I personally feel that any form of marriage is fine, as long as both agree to it. Short term, forever, swinging, whatever. Ideals kill marriages as much as anything else does. Communication-- before, during, and all the time-- is the only thing that works. It's when one person want s one thing but claims they want something else that the whole arrangement falls through.