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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:02 PM
Original message
Please help me find my Inner Bitch.


= sigh =


You know that childhood game-sort-of-thing where your friends sneak up behind you and cover your eyes with their hands, and then you have to guess who it is? Or they sneak up behind you and say something funny right in your ear and startle you, and you kind of jump but you don’t freak out too much because you know in a second you’ll see who it is and you’re both going to laugh and maybe even hug if it’s someone you haven’t seen in a while?

So one night last week I was in the grocery store shopping alone, standing in front of a display case trying to decide what to get for lunch the next day. I’m standing close to the case because it’s the refrigerated kind that is lower to the floor, where you have to stand over it and look down to see the contents, and bend over to get the container out. And someone moves in real close behind me and says, “You ever look at those?” with his mouth about half an inch from my ear.

It startled me and I jumped, but I had little room to move as I was squeezed between him and the case. So I stepped to the side and turned, expecting to find a friend, or at least a friendly acquaintance. But no, it was a complete freakin’ stranger: some big dude in a buzz cut wearing a wife beater, baggy shorts and a smug grin, sending out a really bad vibe.

He completely violated my personal space, but I was so shocked that I just froze, standing there like a dolt with my eyes wide open and finally took a few steps back to put some distance between us. So now he’s sizing me up with this big oily grin and starts up some small talk about the veggie sushi I had been looking at. I followed along, giving the briefest answers I could think of… trying to be polite while my heart was pounding.

I finally got my wits about me and grabbed any old container and - politely - got the hell away from him. I continued my shopping but kept “running into” him in the aisles. As I was walking around the store trying to avoid him as best I could while figuring out how concerned I needed to be, it dawned on me that when he was leaning over me from behind, he was actually looking down my shirt (I had a tank top on). That made me even more freaked out, and angry too.

But you know what? The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I was mostly angry with myself.

Why do I react like that? Why do I automatically default into simpering wuss mode in those situations? God, I hate that! I don’t want to be the good, obliging little Catholic schoolgirl. I don’t want to freeze in fear and make myself vulnerable to whatever’s going to happen next. I don’t want my fundie Aunt to say at my funeral, “Well sure he molested and killed her, but Jesus must be very pleased with how polite she was to him through the whole ordeal.”

I want to be the wicked clever smartass Bitch with a glare that shoots death rays, who knocks Asshole squarely in his place with a vicious snarl and venomous words. Frankly, I don’t think even a spontaneous and firm (not violent) push (not shove) to get him out of my space would have been inappropriate in that situation.

A similar thing happened one night about a month ago. Some guy started flirting with me in a gas station and I basically – politely of course – let him know I wasn’t interested. I walked out to my car (a convertible with the top down), got into it and was looking in my purse for my keys. When I looked up, he was standing right over me and I instantly froze. Because of the lighting and the piped in music and the busy intersection, I never saw or heard him follow me out to my car. Again, (although it was in the evening) it was a very public, well-lit situation and I wasn’t in real danger of anything untoward happening… but I didn’t want him there, either.

So what did I do? Fire off a witty remark and take off? Say something firm and assertive like, “Okay, I’m putting the car in gear now so you need to step back because I don’t want to run over your feet” and then do just that? No. I sat there like a stupid girl while he “flirted” and mildly insulted me (“I didn’t think you’d be the kind of girl to talk to a guy like me… blah blah blah”) until he finally left, but only after I took his number and “promised” to call (because of course I wouldn’t give him my number when he asked).

What the hell is the matter with me? I mean I sort of know the answer: I was always taught to be “nice” and “polite,” even to strangers, but never taught to respect and defend myself, even when strangers were less than polite (and even potentially menacing) in return.

So I guess the real question is, how do I get from here – the naive little patsy girl who makes herself vulnerable – to there – the self respecting woman who doesn’t take shit from strangers? How do I make that part of my spirit? You know what I mean? How do I make that defense of myself instinctive?

Should I try hypnosis? Do I hire some guy to follow me around and occasionally be an obnoxious asshole so I can practice being a bitch until it becomes second nature? Would any type of martial arts training help?

For the record, this guy I knew in undergrad had a wife who had some impressive advanced degree black belt in whatever martial arts discipline, and she told him to jump out at her one night when she wouldn’t expect it because she wanted to test herself to make sure she would default into defense mode in an emergency. So he stayed home from work one night and hid his car, and jumped out at her after she took a few steps into their house. She immediately screamed, dropped to her knees and cowered. :(

Granted, that is anecdotal. Regardless, ANY suggestions deeply appreciated. I am very committed to changing this about myself, but I have no clue where to begin.


P.S. - I don't have these problems when I can reasonably foresee a situation brewing and prepare for it, but it's the times (as above) taking me by surprise which are of particular concern.


Thanks.



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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. great Christine Lavine song
Edited on Sun Sep-10-06 02:12 PM by buddhamama
i don't think you're an exception to the norm.

i often look back on situations and wish i had said this or that, or had done something instead of nothing.

i suffer from pollyanna syndrome too...

i have accepted it though. i don't want the world to change who i am.

sorry i have no advise to offer. sorry too you are feeling this way. :hug:




edited for content
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Thanks for the support.



:hug:


I don't want the world to change who I am either... at least, not too much. But I want to be able to keep myself safe and healthy, and set appropriate boundaries when necessary.


:hi:





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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
46. I discovered my inner bitch in my early forties...
I'd love to lose her somewhere. When you say nothing, at least you won't be regretting the things you said. (DUH--I think you know what I mean). I can stand up for myself. The problem is, I ALWAYS stand up for myself and sometimes I don't know when to shut up. A happy medium would be nice.
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miss_american_pie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Forgive me if this is offensive
but I don't think it's because you were raised to be nice or polite. I mean, maybe that's why you react the way you do, but that's not why you're approached in that manner.

:hug:

I'm thinking better of saying any more here. So I'll just say I'm sorry this has been happening to you.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. It's because I was wearing a tank top?



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miss_american_pie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No
Is it okay if I PM you?
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Of course!
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Thank you for the PM!




Not offensive at all, very relevant and promising idea!


Thank you!


:hug:


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miss_american_pie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Anytime
:hi:
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NewWaveChick1981 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. Flirting is one thing. Stalking and/or harrassing is another.
:hug: It took me a long time to find the "inner bitch" that can sort out that behavior in a flash. I did find her, though, and she's glad she's around. :P A total violation of personal space by a stranger is NOT YOUR FAULT. It's HIS. Plain and simple. You are not responsible for being nice to him. I totally understand the "polite" response, because that would have been me just a few years ago. :) Keep repeating to yourself, "I'm worth more than that. I'm worth more than that." Sounds stupid, but it works. :)

I have a tendency to get lost in thought and not pay much attention to my surroundings, but I learned to pay attention all the time. That has helped me a lot. :) Next time you go to the grocery store, take mental notes about the people you see around you. Guy buying apples---check. Woman irked by her kids---check. That kind of thing. You can do this while you check your shopping list. :) Sometimes I give those shoppers names---Repuke Dad, Soccer Mom, etc. :rofl: Again, it sounds stupid, but it helps keep a quick tab on those around you. If you see Suspicious Weirdo Guy, stay away from that aisle. :scared:

I hate that you were put in that position. :hug: It sucks. And I know just what it feels like. :hug: :pals:
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Hey girl!



:hi:


That's what I'm talking about! I don't want to be on "Perma-Bitch" mode; I still want to be polite and kind to good people, but Insta-Bitch when legitimately threatened.

So what I want to know is, how did you find your Inner Bitch?

I talked to this guy in the social work field about it, he said that finding my Inner Bitch when I need her is a behavior I can learn. Basically he just said to be aware of the situation and keep reviewing and evaluating my performance every time it happens, ask others for input (like here), keep it up front in my mind and play out different scenarios and different potential responses and eventually my mind will engage enough to implement some of the things I've been thinking about when the next situation arises. And just keep working it from that angle.

I'm hoping he's right. Is that what you did?


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NewWaveChick1981 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
52. That's exactly what I did.
:hug: You have to learn that behavior, because it's not programmed. It certainly wasn't for me, and I was soooo tired of the "nice" response to situations that were uncalled for. It took a few months before I actually did that, and fortunately, it's not very often that I have to use my Inner Bitch, but at least she's there when I need her. :P

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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #52
65. Ha! I had a dream last night



...where I was standing in line in a bank or someplace like that and this big guy behind me started pressing up against me. So I turned around and glared at him and speaking loudly told him there was no reason for him to be rubbing up against me like that and he needed to get away from me. And everybody stared but he moved a few places back in line then.


:woohoo:


So far so good!



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NewWaveChick1981 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. Oooh! Step One!!!
:applause: You're on your way, DA! :woohoo: Glad to hear it!
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. fuck him!!
i've been stalked & the end result was not a happy one, i do not have any tolerance for people in my space where they do not belong
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I remember you writing about that.



:hug:


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SoyCat Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. The joke in my family is that when I was born and the doctor slapped my
bum, I slapped back. Feisty has been in my blood since birth.

I think you just need to start allowing yourself to feel things and think about the emotions--don't try to immediately be nice. I also think you need to be more cautious by doing a few little things:

1. Always have your key ready before you exit a store, etc.
2. Learn to be aware of your surroundings (I can't stress this enough)
3. Look in the mirror and practice your "death glare" and realize the power that look can give you and
4. Use your elbows. One of my favorite ways to deal with people who invade my personal space is the "inadvertent elbow jab" If your elbows are as pointed as mine are, you'll be left alone.

Project confidence and people will be less likely to invade your space.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thank you! That is all really good, practical advice.



I was hoping to hear from people like you and Haruka! :7


:hi:


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SoyCat Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. You're welcome. I'm glad I could help. You'll be just fine!
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't know if an XY opinion is relevant
but I'm the same way. Well, I don't "cower," but I do let people abuse my space, etc. — until they cross some line. I go from zero to rip-your-face-off — slowly, usually, but I get there, and it's not pretty. And in the meantime, I hate myself.

If I knew how to change it, I'd certainly tell you. :hug:

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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Hey you.




Obviously we should get together and practice invading each other's personal space and ripping each other's faces off, and then celebrate not hating ourselves with gallon containers of Vermonty Python.


:7


:hug:





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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm sorry, old chap, I don't understand your banter
Could you say "invading each other's personal space" and "ripping each other's faces off" a bit slower?

:evilgrin:

:hug:

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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
12. My dear Dangerously Amused........
Aw, sweetie, my heart goes out to you.....

I just remember that if I look like a victim, then I am a victim...

My daughter taught me that.......

When she was a grad student in Chicago, and was walking back to her apt. late at night, she would walk down the middle of the street.

And she did this with a look on her face that would stop any would-be attackers......

It worked for her.

I always remember this.

You might try using this look.....and remember, you are worth it, too! :hug:
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Thank you dear Peggy,




...and this is something that MAP and I were just discussing in PM. Here's (a paraphrased) part of my answer to her:


One thing I have been doing is pointedly not noticing the men around me because I thought doing so might be counter-productive by sending the message that I was interested... you know? Like they always say the first step in flirting with a guy is in making eye contact... so I was making it a point to not notice them at all. But maybe if I "notice" them while giving them a "Back Off Or Die" look it will make all the difference.


Thanks for the good advice!


:hi:



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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. Polite, but firm honesty.
I tried to imagine what I'd say in your situation. Probably "Excuse me, I have a lot of shopping to do. I think there's a clerk (some place) if you need advice."

In your case, however, that guy deliberately and physically invaded your space and stalked you. Even if it was a friend, I would have said, "what the hell do you think you're doing? Get the hell away from me." {Loud enough for others to hear. Even if it's a misunderstanding, I'd rather clear it up or apologize in front of witnesses than suffer from a supermarket molester}.

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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Good answers.



I can usually hold my own on a level playing field, but it's that element of surprise that turns me into a dittering, spineless wimp. But yeah, good answers. I must remember to call attention to the situation by speaking loudly!

Thanks!

:hi:



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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. I can follow you around and "act" like an obnoxious asshole.
:hug:

Or I can beat the bejeezus out of anyone who tries anything. Other than that, just try to make an angry face at all times -- it usually keeps people away.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. That's it, I just need a bodyguard!




I warn you, however, you will have to save me from myself when I try to dance.


:hi:


:hug:



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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. We'll both dance.
But whoever falls first has to pay for drinks. ;) :hug:
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Pays for each round? Or for the whole night?




Never mind, it doesn't really matter. Can I just pay now and get it over with?


:7




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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #44
69. Yes, and I'll have what you're having.
;)
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
20. DA !!!
I missed you :)
welcome back
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. Big hugs!




Thanks for the PM sweetie. I missed you too!


:hug:


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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I can sleep a happy man now!
:hug:
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm HERE. Your Inner Bitch is HERE.
You lean suddenly toward a stupid fucker with a death gleam in your eye, with your keys in your hand. You glance VERY quickly around the store to sum up allies. Weirdos, even the weirdest weirdos, flinch when you lean toward them suddenly. I promise you will never look like the creep when this happens.

"What are you talking about?" is good when said loudly and suddenly. The suddenness takes them by surprise. They're used to people not knowing what to do. I have had to compile a notebook of things just to say in such situations. You know I've been there.

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. lean in & ask, "are you talking to me? well ARE YOU!?!"
:scared: :rofl:
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You see, that's just right.
Just right. Hey bridgie? Should I start some popcorn & start a thread for DA? Something tells me I should. A poll of sorts, my sistah.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. oh yes, make it super buttery so our lips look glossy...
make the poll super buttery too, a nice heaping bowl of hot, super buttery poll-corn :yourock:
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Sugar Smack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Done-and-done.
You freaking ROCK yourselvsie. :yourock:
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
51. A thread for DA? Huh? I just got here....




Uh oh. I think I gotta go check on something...


:yoiks:


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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. OMG, that photo and your caption made me LOL!



Be the cat. Beeee the caaaat.


Thanks bridgit!


:hi:


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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. I need only to channel my Inner Sugar Smack in all occasions of life



...to be perfectly charming, poised, witty, wise and successful.


I think you're right though, I need to at least meet their level of assertion if not take it up a notch.


Thanks. And love ya sista!


:loveya:



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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks for this thread...it's something I've worried about a bit...
I'm not a woman who catches attention...but I do think about "What if..?"
and my Inner Crazy Person says "Change the game."
Look at the person for toooo looong...then start yelling incoherently about something right AT them while still staring at them. Go nuts. Have fun.
Embarassing? Probably. But isn't that slimeball embarrassing you? Why should you hog all the fun? Share the joy.


It's a thing we are so indoctrinated with, we have trouble getting out of it, even at the cost of our lives (what the Fundie Aunt would say at the funeral sums it up perfectly).

WE DON'T ALWAYS HAVE TO BE NICE!!!
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. That sounds like fun.




I've always wished I had taken the time to learn an uncommon foreign language if for no other reason than just to start babbling it - loudly and animatedly if necessary - at people who annoy me.


:7


:hi:



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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. thats why in most
martial arts, repeatition is necessary, so you just do it, instead of faltering...in this case, you need to practice you Bitch-Fu, so you need a sparring partner, and just pop off on one another to hone your skills...so next time so jerk does this to you, you dont' hold back....just my .02 cents
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Not a bad idea.



I should gather up some girlfriends and go to the next Republican gathering so we'll have an unlimited supply of assholes to practice on.


:hi:


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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Thats a wonderful idea....:)
And good luck with that, I'm sure finding them isn't going to be entirely difficult...:) :hi:
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China_cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. Keep this in Mind.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Excellent point.




On the other hand, if I can manage to burp, sweat and pass gas the next time some creep shines around I can probably manage to get rid of him without disturbing my Inner Bitch at all!


:hi:


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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
30. I've been in those situations, and used to react the way you did.
Edited on Sun Sep-10-06 05:33 PM by SeattleGirl
Then, about 20 years ago, living smack in the middle of Seattle, I didn't have a car for about 4 years. Walked most everywhere I went, or took the bus. I learned to be very aware of my surroundings (as others have suggested to you), not in a paranoid way, but just being aware.

I learned to use my elbows, and even to shove with my arm in getting past someone who I felt was threatening to me.

I learned to walk upright, with an air of "Don't fuck with me" about me, particularly if I'm in an area where there aren't a lot of people around. That doesn't mean I don't say hello to people, or smile at people. I can still be nice and polite, but believe me, my Inner Bitch is lurking just below the surface and will come out when necessary.

I still remember my first experience with directly confronting someone who I felt had invaded my personal space. I was at a 7-11 about 4 blocks from my house one night, and the guy behind me was about an inch away from me. It felt horrible. So I took a step away, looked him in the eye, and said, "Would you step back, please?" My question and my tone of voice were polite, but I was also firm. He got all smart-alecky on me, so I said, very firmly this time, "Back. Off." He did, I think in part because of my tone of voice, body posture, and the look on my face, which were not invitations to tea. And in part, I think he finally realized that we were at the counter, the clerk was right there, and there were people in line behind him.

Anyway, I left the store to walk home, keys sticking out from my balled-up fist, and I hear footsteps behind me. I turned around, and it was the asshole from the store. I felt scared, I have to tell you, because it was at night, and I didn't see anyone else out walking. But, I remembered something I had read in an article on keeping yourself safe, that said oftentimes, turning around and directly facing the person following you will often back them off. So I did exactly that. Turned around, planted my feet, stood tall, and stared at him. He started to smirk, and then realized that he wasn't scaring me, so HE turned around and walked away! Day-am, but did THAT feel good!!! Ever since then, I realized that I could stand up to people. And I've learned to be pretty mouthy too, if the occasion calls for it.

So don't beat yourself up, DA. Don't think of it in terms of being "nice" or "not nice". Think of it in terms of having the right -- which you absolutely do -- to not have people invade your space, scare you, follow you, or threaten you in any way. You can do it!

:hug:
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. "....keys sticking out from my balled-up fist...."
Was gonna bring this up, glad you did.
Think of them as instant brass knuckles.
Punch somebody with this and you can REALLY do some damage get their attention.

No, I'm NOT violent; in fact, I'm one of the gentlest, most non-confrontational people you'd ever want to meet.
But that doesn't mean I want to be a victim.
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Learned the key thing from my roommate at the time.
I still do it to this day. I'm not a violent person either, but neither am I going to let someone threaten me or try to harm me without putting up a fight.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Keys. Fist. Gotcha.








(Actually I did learn this a long time ago in a self-defense class, but it's always a good time to review. Thanks!)


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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. Thanks SG!



Your post made me do some thinking and remembering on my own.... very timely... About twenty years ago I too was living alone without a car in a crime-ridden part of a big city (gunshots at night, etc.) when going to undergrad and for a while thereafter. Walking alone at night I also learned to project a Do Not Fuck With Me attitude in my walk and my bearing, my voice and my eye contact... was very aware of my surroundings too. Heh - also learned to disguise my gender, at night anyway. I never had a problem then and never really felt threatened either. After that I took a job where I physically detained people who, needless to say, did not want to be detained. Most of the time I could gain their compliance with my voice and manner, but sometimes it became a physical confrontation and I was able to hold my own then as well, always protected myself and never had one get away. But now... I don't know. It's been a long time since I've been in those situations on a regular basis. Perhaps I've lost my edge.

But anyway I know I have the ability to handle myself the way I need to, since I've done it... I just don't seem to have the hard-wiring to do so when the situations come as a surprise as opposed to something I can more-or-less anticipate. But you know what, just talking about it and hearing what you and others have to say is helping me clarify my thoughts and giving me more and better ideas about what to do, and I guess that's the first step, right?


Thank you!


BIG :hug:




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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-10-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. You could be right -- not being in the situation you were in before,
your mind set is not the same as it was then. But reading what you wrote, I see that you DO have the capacity to help yourself, and protect yourself. As far as the situations coming as a surprise, that is a little different, I admit. What I usually do, even if I'm caught off guard initially, is to act as soon as I collect myself.

And it does help to hear what others have to say, what they have done in similar situations, etc. Just keep at it, DA, and as I said, don't beat yourself up.

BIG :hug: back to you.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. You need to learn some good insults
Practice them

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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #53
70. Are you suggesting that I hang out in GD for awhile?



:hi:



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In_The_Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
54. Being polite to obnoxious strangers is a form of protection mode.

I know I try not to antagonize the beast. Try working as a cocktail waitress for a while = your inner bitch will become instinctive and apparent from afar. I rarely had a problem with customers trying to grope me while other waitresses complained constantly.

I'm sorry you were violated in such a manner. BTW I missed the hell outta you! :hi: :loveya:
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. A good point not mentioned in many of the above posts.
When women revert to "being nice", it is often really just being smart. Pissing off a creep can be more dangerous than just letting him be creepy.
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In_The_Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. It isn't easy to know how to handle the churlish creeps.

You know their mothers have little self respect or the creeps would have learned better behavior. Those types often have a hair-trigger to violence. :grr:
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
71. Exactly, it was the environment that threw me.




I can imagine the crap that cocktail waitresses have to deal with. Gawd. Or even just knowing what to expect (not accept) in a crowded bar. But geez... frotteurs in a grocery store?

UNREAL!



Hey, I missed you too. But it is BIG big fun to live vicariously via your adventures on the road. Welcome back!



:hi:


:hug:


:loveya:

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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
56. I cannot answer that question
and if I did I would not offer any suggestions on how to become more of a bitch.

You don't need to become a bitch. If anything at all, you just need the assertiveness to say, leave me alone or I will scream/call the police/whatever. I am depressed, however, that meekness is considered such a bad quality. I also have no fighting spirit, and yes that does leave me potentially vulnerable to someone who wants to exploit that. It has happened in the past. It sounds like you have been unlucky recently.

But I think the alternative - become more of an asshole - is too high a price to pay. The world may be full of shitheads but I don't see how it can help any to become one myself. Sigh. A world full of wisecracking assholes and bitches doesn't sound so great to me.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. ...
:hug: :hug::* :* (xxxxxxxxxx)
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. It's like, from time to time I do get walked over
and afterwards I always curse myself, why did I let that asshole do that to me? Why didn't I give him shit? But the truth is that's just not my nature. And when I think about it really hard, I see that I don't really want to change it either.

Oh, and :* :hug:

xoxoxoxox :)
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. I'm glad you're not a brat
Good for you. I wish we wouldn't have to even deal with that stuff. *sigh* xxxxxxx
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buddhamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. ....
i empathize with you and D_A because i am not the assertive, nor bitchy type myself. there have been situations in my life where i 'suffered' silently because i lacked the 'inner bitch'. i've have gotten very good though, at ignoring assholes. once you're in my book of jerkys, i pay you no mind- total indifference.

"A world full of wisecracking assholes and bitches doesn't sound so great to me." agreed. Then everyone would be trying to out do one another on the asshole/bitch scales anyway.

:hug: sweetie.

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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Think I'm swimming against the tide on this one though
:hug:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
64. I agree with you there.
Edited on Mon Sep-11-06 10:28 AM by raccoon
"You don't need to become a bitch. If anything at all, you just need the assertiveness to say, leave me alone or I will scream/call the police/whatever."

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned assertiveness training.

If you can't find any assertiveness training classes, there are some good books on the subject.

That about the guy at the filling station, my suggestion is push your panic button. That will draw attention and the asshole will probably back off.

There's a difference between ASSERTIVE and AGGRESSIVE. Sadly, seems that nowadays many people don't realize this.

I have a young relative who doesn't. She apparently thinks it's cute to be an aggressive asshole. She'll get no legacy from me.

Edited to add last 2 paragraphs.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-12-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #56
72. Perhaps "bitch" wasn't a good choice of words.
Edited on Tue Sep-12-06 10:18 PM by Dangerously Amused



And perhaps I didn't give an accurate description of who it is I want to become.


I don't want to actually become a bitch deep down inside, at the essence of my being... but I do want to have the equivalent "protective" aspect of my nature at the ready when I find myself in danger. Like if I see someone I love being threatened by another, I will not hesitate to step in and do whatever I can to protect my loved one from being injured. What I want is to be able to protect myself in the same way. It isn't about wanting to offend other people first - which is what I think a bitch does - but about wanting to meet an offensive person at his or her level so as to draw the respect which may minimize and hopefully negate the potential for further aggression. In that respect there is actually a good intention toward the aggressor. i.e., wanting to prevent him from doing something harmful to both of us - to me physically and to him via karma.

And you are right, it has been a run of bad luck lately which has cast me into this mindset.



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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. You should do what you think best
I personally don't want to be on the same level as an offensive person at all. Not in any way, shape, or form. I don't believe it's necessary for myself.

You should follow whatever path you think you need to, and I will go the way I think I should, and we will say no more.
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tjwmason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #56
74. YAYS for billy
I agree totally.

Meeting arseholery with arseholery merely makes for more arseholery in the long-term.
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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
77. I'm with you - being appropriately assertive and protective of oneself
is not being "bitchy". Or "assholey" or anything else, other than being a thoughtful, intentional maintainer of one's boundaries.

it's not being "bitchy" to tell people that you don't like their racist jokes; it's not "bitchy" to tell to a stranger that you don't like their being so close, invading your space, or being creepy. It's just PROPER and RIGHT.
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reyd reid reed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
62. Damn, girl
*sigh*

I know the feeling. I can talk a good game but when it comes right down to it, all the 'kill 'em with kindness' and 'be polite' shit that my mother pounded into my head comes out and I turn into SuperWuss, champion of the Magic Words and Speaker of "Please," "Thank You," and "I'm Sorry."

Someone makes me feel threatened, I'm likely to find myself fuckin' apologizing for something. Up to a point. Then all hell's likely to break loose but for that to happen, generally someone has to be threatening someone else that I care about.

When it comes to me though, polite, polite, polite.

Then I get pissed off at myself.

GAH!

I wish I had an answer for you. I've been getting better at finding my inner bitch when it comes to relationships, though.

Fat lot of good it's done me.


:hug:
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. Ha! I KNEW we were twin sisters separated at birth!




:hug:


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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
66. Elbows

Practice saying, "You wish, you fucking loser." ...and then say it the next time something like that happens.


You'll always be my inner bitch... ;)


:loveya:


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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Hi dp!



As long as I can be your inner bitch, it's all good.



"...I'm a bitch, I'm a tease
I'm a goddess on my knees
when you hurt, when you suffer
I'm your angel undercover
I've been numbed, I'm revived
can't say I'm not alive
You know I wouldn't want it any other way..."



:loveya:


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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. Hey you goddess, you...

;)

I got my cat moves
That so upsets them
Zippers and buttons
Fun to frustrate them
They get so angry
Like pouty children
Denied their candy
I laugh right at them

I know what boys like
I know what guys want
I know what boys like
Boys like, boys like me

Of course that wouldn't be me me, but rather you me, get me?

:loveya:

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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-11-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
68. Soycat's words are wise.
Succinct, too. Unlike mine... :D

I can't improve in any meaningful way on the four tips Soycat gave you. They're perfect, and they cover the most important bases. The second -- remaining alert and ready for anything -- is key. Being aware of your surroundings is always a good thing, anyway. You're probably pre-adapted to it, not just through being generally observant and very visually-inclined but even through something as seemingly trivial as having ridden a motorcycle -- motorcyclists who're worth their salt tend to look not just directly in front of themselves but also further ahead, anticipating such things as someone opening a car door, some oblivious idiot pulling a U-turn in front of them, a dog running out from someone's property, children playing, etc, etc. That same kind of expanded awareness and ability to rapidly seize bits of environmental evidence and create possible scenarios from that, and to update, discard, and create new scenarios is pretty handy when you're out and about, especially when alone or in dicey circumstances. There's a limit, though: one of my kung fu teachers told me that, when he was younger, he got so caught up with being hyper-vigilant that he began experiencing physical stress and great mental anguish every time he left his house. It was like he was imagining teams of ninja ready to pop out from every shadow. He almost nailed someone on the street who surprised him, with no malice, and realized he'd taken things a bit far. There's a fine line, in the extremes of it all, between paranoia and alertness.

Another of Soycat's points, about using the elbows, is a great piece of advice. The key is to avoid overt violence...subtle defenses/attacks and strikes that could be seen as 'accidental' are useful weapons if you want to avoid escalation or, certainly, legal hassles. Advanced martial techniques like joint locking, nerve attacks and the like are great for self-defense for just this reason: they do not look overtly 'violent,' unlike most punches and kicks, and also generally offer a great deal of control to the person applying the technique (not just control of the assailant but control of how intense the technique is in its application and what the other's response will be).

You undoubtedly know more about the law (in general, and in your jurisdiction) regarding assault and battery than I do, but it's my general understanding that you can claim self-defense if someone is in your face and being belligerent or otherwise threatening you. I most recently conformed this with a Las Vegas Metro policeman in the wake of being hassled by some bozo, and it seems to be what I've heard pretty much everywhere I've lived. In such cases, I believe you are within your rights to smack them one. Certainly to ward them off. And certainly to inform them that they needed to step back or you will defend yourself (or, if you're ready to belt them, say "do not touch me"...it's almost an a***hole reflex, it seems, for the idiot hassling you to then touch you as if daring you or just to confirm their a**holery, and there you have your opening for showing them you mean business -- in my job this has happened quite a bit, though my response has so far never been more than quickly smacking their hand away and telling them to get away from me). Of course, if they do actually verbally threaten you, it's assault (at least, as far as I've always known...not just in the US, but in other countries, too) and you have a right to defend yourself.

I have heard -- and this undoubtedly varies with jurisdiction -- that if the other person is within so-many inches (six is what I usually hear) of you then you are justified in physically defending yourself if you feel threatened because at that point they leave you zero options and have absolute control over you...if they follow you when you step away, for example, you'd be defending yourself if you even did something so simple and devastating as a palm strike to the face ("I raised my hand to prevent him coming any closer after I moved back and he ran right into it. Golly. I guess his nose cartilage was just extra delicate, or something..."). If they're close enough you are in real danger, but if you know what you're doing -- and you don't want to get this wrong because you'll just provoke him -- the heel of your shoe on his instep, a quick groin shot from the ridge part of your hand between thumb and index finger, or an elbow strike to his chest while you adjust your hair could all be handy don't-mess-with-me signals. The shock of it may deter far beyond the actual physical pain or damage. "Hey, you're not supposed to fight back! What happened to the whole frightened rabbit thing?" And feel around on your own arms, legs, and upper chest and you'll probably find for yourself just where some of the handier and more easily targeted pressure points are on the human body. But getting away is better than all of these potentially-dangerous games, if getting away is a valid option. That's not just something I'm saying to you because you're a woman -- running away is the most superior martial art of all, including for someone like me.

Then there's always the fibbing option, if you're okay with the idea that you really were threatened and that The System was failing you in its not recognizing that. It'll come down to "he said, she said," and here being a woman may actually provide some advantage because (a) if someone like me was claiming that someone like you hurt them, most judges probably would have a hard time believing I didn't deserve it and (b) a large male's not all that likely to trumpet the fact that a much smaller girl beat the hell out of him. But, really, in circumstances a little more confrontational than what you describe (more anger and direct threat of harm), it's not hard to provoke someone to throw the first punch if you need them to, though at that point you'd better for damn sure have the capabilities to respond (with force or by fleeing rather expeditiously). If you're responding in kind, it's always seemed easier to me to defend than to launch that first attack, anyway. But, please, don't respond in kind -- with a strike (and it'd better be more than just one strike...once you get going, don't stop but follow through until he's out of commission or until you can escape) -- unless you are willing and able to go all the way or have backup close at hand...it's like what they say about not pulling a gun unless you're really ready to kill someone or how the Gurkhas don't unsheath their kukris unless they're going to draw blood. A halfway-committed physical defense is a recipe for disaster.

Of course, it's not that simple, and if a judge decides you used 'excessive force' (especially if you're trained as a martial artist, never mind that it's a myth that even a well-trained martial artist is a killing machine...that pop-culture and media myth has become part of legal precedence, unfortunately) or otherwise doesn't like what you did, even if defending against someone armed with a lethal weapon, you can get convicted. There're plenty of nightmare stories out there about people who were jailed as a result of actions taken in self-defense (most especially where their attacker died...so easy for someone to fall and hit their head, or die from a fairly 'innocent' strike because they had some arteries already loose, or whatever). It sucks. But I do, I fervently hope, digress from what is relevant to your original post...

Might as well digress a little more and talk about the fighting/pushing/physical-mental-confrontation aspect of it.

I am a martial arts evangelist but I freely admit that the benefits of martial arts will be more esoteric than immediately (violently) applicable -- it will take years of sweaty effort for you to be able to skew the odds significantly in your favor through martial arts training, though mental and attitudinal benefits relevant to incidents such as you describe will begin to manifest sooner. I can speak of physical altercations from years of training but only one real incident, at least as an adult (it was fundamentally different than all the fighting I was forced into in my youth). Others have more incidents under their belts, but I learned a lot from just this one and I hope I never have another (by which I mean that I have had many potential incidents but managed to control each and defuse the situation, and in my current job I have many minor scuffles but nothing, as yet, that was all-out fighting). In my only serious adult fight, when I was unable to prevent onset of overt violence, I handily trounced my assailant but my efforts were anything but the pretty, flowing movements I'd been doing for so many years...it was messy, violent, and dirty and also happened to be in the worst possible location (at night on a moonless night, on broken ground littered with hurricane debris, in a confined space, with a third party getting in the way). My training obviously played a role in the physicality of it -- not one of the person's punches never connected with me, I had absolutely no hesitation in responding to his first attack (a kick -- he was a boxer, aTae Kwon Do black belt, and bad-boy streetfighter in his younger and healthier days) and, indeed, came in with my kicks as he was withdrawing his leg. And my two initial kicks' targets were purposeful even if I didn't consciously choose them -- bladder and groin -- which is the kind of thing that comes from conditioned responses over a long period of time. Once I had him on the run with my kicks I closed on him, while still maintaining my reach advantage, and just pummeled his face while parrying his punches because I knew that, if I stopped, he'd really, really hurt me (he later came after me with a machete, but that's another story). Just as in some of my training, I never once actually blocked a punch but used my punches as simultaneous parries down my centerline and when he kicked me, at the outset, I didn't block but quickly pulled back just enough inches that he didn't contact me and then followed his leg back with my own kick and immediately lunge-shuffled forward for the second kick so that I could nail him hard in the groin...definitely not conscious at that point but a conditioned response and about the only elegant part of the whole affair.

I hated this person, with good reason, but every time my fist smashed into his face and made that noise I just hated what I was doing...but I knew that I had keep hammering away at him to get him down and either knock the overly robust sumbitch out or I'd be beaten to a pulp, and I'm too attached to my teeth to allow that. I recall each and every one of my strikes and defenses as if it was slow motion, and it seemed to last forever (long enough that I became keenly aware that I was not enjoying rearranging his face as much as I thought I might -- I'd wanted to do it for months -- but that I had to keep at it 'til he was no longer a threat) but the reality was that the bulk of the fight lasted maybe eighteen seconds or so before he keeled over and my punches that I was almost counting were essentially a flurry. There's a scene in Spider-Man where Tobey is discovering his new powers and watches in wonder as his opponent's fist comes toward him in what seemed slow motion, and that is exactly how my opponent's fists seemed to me, telegraphed beyond belief even though it was so profoundly dark where we were. I could easily have killed this person in the weeks before, I'd thought, because of what he represented in my life at that time, but when it came down to it on that night (after I tried to talk him out of fighting and he stupidly attacked me) I applied just enough force to take him down and keep him down...it was self-defense all the way and the only concession to 'spite' that I made was to drop my knee on to his groin when I had him down, to keep him numb. Part of me wished I'd hurt him more. Broken his leg at the knee, or something. The f***er more than deserved it. He really deserved far worse, and it wouldn't have taken much to break something. As it was, I broke his (already broken) nose and his entire face was swollen and gashed for weeks after.

My point is that from this one experience much of what I'd heard in kung fu classes was field-proven, and here's the gist of that:

(i) "he who hesitates meditates horizontally" -- you relate the story of the female black belt who just lost her martial way when surprised by her husband...well, it'd be easy to say that perhaps her conditioning as a female in our society made 'violent' physical response such a hurdle that she would never overcome it fully, and I think that's a valid point to a degree, but I think the same is not much different for many males. I know that I never took too naturally to smacking people around. Martial arts training, with good teachers, can help us overcome that hesitation but it may take quite a while. Being hit, hard, for the first time is a shock and will very often leave you open to follow-up attack because you're basically just reeling, more from shock than initial pain. Hitting someone, with anything even close to commitment, comes with a similar degree of shock. And many martial arts schools specialize so much in pulling the punch during sparring that when a real situation arises they do what they're conditioned to do and either fail to connect with their techniques or do so only with a fraction of their real power, as they would when sparring with a classmate. I think being able to control and pull punches is a necessity for most sparring (it also refines control greatly and improves technique), but sometimes you just need to go all the way and sometimes a heavy bag or dummy just isn't enough.

Anyway, what happened to her could easily have happened to me that night. I could have hesitated in disbelief or in fear just as easily as I channeled my inner Bruce Lee. It's one of those things that you'll never know until it happens. And just because I responded 'instinctively' (I hesitate to use that word...the Asian concept of "no mind" is more like it, in that you train and train and train until those regimens are thrown away and utter blankness, overlaying a profoundly ingrained library of technical skills, is the order of the day) that time does not necessarily mean that I will not hesitate if I ever find myself again in a similar situation. In my current job I experience physical threats of varying degrees and I do tend to hesitate, on purpose, because most are not serious and are just products of drunkenness or believing the Vegas "let it hang loose" myth, but I've had a few more serious altercations and, so far, what I needed to be there was there. Other than a few incidents in which my elbow got people (literally) off my back, the most serious incidents yet have involved groups of men and I discovered that a lot of such situations can be defused through attitude (not backing down and trying to seize some control over the situation by, in my case, telling them quietly and with control that they needed to leave) and through a firm push -- guiding push, not a shove (big difference) -- to help them along their way. Last Friday, when the Strip was a war zone, I singlehandedly removed two different groups of troublemakers from where I was just by quietly informing them that they needed to leave (a justifiably more strident turn of phrase would have escalated things and there was no way I was going to show them any fear...in fact, I really wasn't afraid at all, this time, and was ready to go nuclear on the biggest one of them if any of them moved in an inappropriate way, a possibility for which I was pretty adrenalized) and by placing my hands on their backs and letting them feel my strength and that there was no yielding on my part. Much of that a bluff, of course...these were sizable young men, all of them, and I am not looking forward to ever fighting, for real, four determined assailants all by myself. But, as great dudes like Sun Tzu and Rommel would tell you, you never let your enemy know the truth of your own disposition, and deception is perfectly honorable.

My size and the pressure from my hand probably helped, but I have seen women do the same kind of thing...pump up the attitude to compensate for physical disparities (and their mental aspect that "she's just a girl") and it can be the same effect. The key, I think, is to never let them know how scared you are. In my experience -- I'm hardly a streetfighter but in this current job I have a lot of minor confrontations with belligerent idiots -- most people who seem to be looking for trouble are not actually wanting for or ready for a real fight...they're like bullies, in that they'll be blowhards or try hard to be menacing but are, really, cowards. I mean, when I see some loudmouthed, vigorous male who's over 6' tall, 200 pounds, and in his late 20s or early 30s yelling at me what he's going to do to me (they get braver the more distant they get, unless they're temporarily or permanently nuts...those are the ones to really be worried about) if only he wasn't being restrained by the 102-pound girlfriend holding his arm...well, it's kinda hard to get too terrified of some virile hunk of man who can truly be held back, despite his determination to come beat the hell out of me, by such a petite person. But there are real threats out there, and more for women than for men, and overcoming the hesitation is key. Again, ultimately this really comes under the "be prepared" part of Soycat's advice

(ii) if it's deteriorated to the point of a physical altercation, do not relent and don't stop until the sucker is no longer a threat to you. Strength, reach, and technical proficiency are only ever part of the story -- it's your attitude that's going to even the odds at least partway. Surprise -- including surprise that someone like you (a woman) who should be meek and compliant -- is a very potent weapon (for evidence, look no further than the whole idea of Blitzkrieg) and tenacity makes up for a lot of innate imbalances in a confrontation. I've been bested by women in martial arts sparring, plenty of times...the physical is the least of it. But if you go for it, go for it 100% or you'll likely be worse off than you were before. "Never get off the boat, unless you were going all the way." I hope this never applies to you.

(iii) on a related note, there can be a place for the "no mercy" attitude of the evil karate instructor in Karate Kid...if someone has made things deteriorate to the point that you need to hurt them, whether with some handy weapon or with your body's intrinsic weapons, don't let compassion and feeling sorry for their blood loss derail you. Go for the eyes, use that knee to ensure they never breed, slap your hands so hard on both ears that they bust an eardrum...whatever it takes. They started it and you've got to assume that they'd do the same or worse to you if they could. Besides, there's not too much of this sort of damage that's going to be truly permanent and serious, and what concerns you at this point is doing your best to walk away the least injured. Again, I would hate to see you in a situation where physical fighting was your only option, but this idea has a metaphorical value that's more widely applicable. Shame and merciless mocking, for instance, can be a potent thing.

(iv) you never know where or when you'll be threatened, and you rarely can tell right off the bat how serious are such threats. You may need to fight or escape under highly suboptimal conditions (environmental, intrinsic, etc) so, again, be prepared. You don't need to necessarily be always sizing up escape routes and lines of sight but when that voice inside you responds to the hairs on the back of its neck rising, listen to the voice and get a quick grasp on where you are, who is around, and what weapons, hazards, and refuges are at hand.

(v) never fight 'fair.' Assuming that you're responding to an attack or to a real threat, your opponent doesn't deserve fairness, anyway. If you're forced to defend yourself against someone larger and stronger than you -- even a couch-potato male would qualify, probably -- there's an asymmetry that is decidedly unfair, anyway, and it's not in your favor. Do whatever you need to do to try to rectify this imbalance. Fight dirty. Remember the knife-fight scene early on in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. In my fight, my very first defense was a toe kick straight in to his bladder, the idea (again, not really a conscious decision but just something that happened, which is what the whole point of all that training was in the first place) being to not only hurt the sumbitch and possibly make him urinate blood for a while but to perhaps make him wet his pants (didn't work, though) so that he'd be demoralized and disengage. One of my longest-term kung fu instructors stressed to us that not only is kung fu essentially Chinese dirty-fighting but that the ultimate concept for self-defense is to take out the opponent's knee (jump spinning 360-degree back kicks are for showing off and training...most real kicks in Chinese systems are delivered below the waist) and then walk over to pick up a metal trashcan or two-by-four, beat the hell out of them while they're on the ground and whimpering over their knee, and then get out of there before the police arrive. :D

And yes, 'the glare' is an essential weapon. Like I said, most people who start trouble -- whether it's with some behemoth like me or a petite woman such as you -- will chicken out when it comes down to it, and attitude will trump physicality most of the time. It is hard to overcome the tendency to remain polite and be nice -- I feel it, so it's not like it's unique to women -- but at the point where those two bozos were pushing the limits of social convention, which was pretty much right off the bat, they neither deserved your politeness nor your attention. You had no need to respond to them -- in these cases, with other people around, you could have ignored them completely and treated them as the nonentities they were -- nobody has a right to expect you to respond to them, ever. What they really deserved, of course, was a good swift kick to the groin, but I bet that if you let your contemptuous silence and the insane-cat-like glare in your eyes show them that this was your belief they'd have backed off. If not, if they tried to box you in or restrain you, the next step is to run over the f***er's foot with your shopping cart or car ("whoopsie!") or create a fuss that'll send him red-faced and scurrying in the face of public scrutiny. Shame will go a long way as a deterrent. And watching Thelma and Louise for inspiration -- not so much the killing-the-dude part and the whole canyon-dive bit -- can't hurt...lots of wisdom in that movie.

Oh...if you're considering self-defense courses, please don't waste your time if it's some one or two day seminar, or something like that. I have a real problem with many such courses in that they very, very often (even when taught by proficient martial artists) run women through a few unrealistic scenarios and almost invariably offer solutions to those scenarios that involve all sorts of exotic kungfoolery...big mistake, because people who're not used to training their bodies to do specific things will never grasp or retain such complex sequences and, in fact, the drills are often unnecessarily complex and will likely reduce the effectiveness of a woman's response to a real attack.

One example I remember a female roommate showing me was, in response to being grabbed from behind (this seems to be a favorite in such classes -- it happens, but it's probably not that common and is a really stupid way to attack someone) to lift up their legs and allow themselves to fall to the attacker's feet and then double over and kick up at his face or torso from below. Yeah, right. Here's an idea: when the attacker's got you from behind like that he's tying up both of his hands whereas you've got two hands (even if the attacker's arms wrap around your upper arms or even elbows) and two feet free...if anyone's at a disadvantage it's him, and you can nail him in the face (backfist or finger jab or claw to the eyes, or smack him with the back of your head if you're of similar height), groin (hammer fist or kick from below), or knee, shin, and instep (kicks and stamps) now that he's kind enough to get you close to these tender targets. No acrobatics necessary, and no potentially-lethal going to the ground. Leave the rest to Jackie Chan and his stuntmen.

Same with all the exotic escapes and grappling that they show you as response to someone grabbing your wrist. Those exotic solutions have their place in advanced martial arts classes, usually in the context of reversing an assault so that you hold the advantage, but not in a self-defense workshop that lasts a few hours. If someone gabs your wrist you need to focus not on what they have taken from you but what they have given you and what you have left, and among those are one arm and two legs. Someone grabs your wrist to restrain you and it's easy to just freeze...but, instead of freezing, or struggling to free your trapped hand (or doing some exotic twisty thing to free your hand -- too many of the techniques in these workshops teach women to turn their backs or spin, and that is usually a Very Bad Idea) just use your other hand to smack the sumbitch upside the head. He's holding your wrist...fine...punch him square in the nose with your free hand. He'll probably let go or loosen his grip, anyway, and -- regardless -- it's very easy to free a restrained hand when it's being restrained by just one hand. In fact, it's basically impossible to stop someone getting their hand free when you're holding their wrist, even if you've got the proverbial kung-fu grip in your arsenal, and if the idiot's trapping your one hand with his two then you are really enjoying a serious advantage with your free hand. Yeah, baby...he wants to hold your hand, you smack him in the face, throat, eyes, or anywhere else, or destroy his knee joint with a low kick. Let him have that hand. He's all yours at that point, the idiot. Better yet, pull on his hand so that when you hit him the effect is magnified by his own mass meeting your strike. Much more straightforward, and much safer, than what they teach in many of these stupid courses.

Of course, in all of these there's the danger of hesitating, or freezing, whether through outright fear, conflict over getting physical, or even being burdened with so many possible response that none materializes. I've certainly hesitated many times in classes. It's hard not to and, like I said, there's ultimately only one real way to know that you won't, and that's the hard way.

There's also the possibility of a woman who's completed such a course getting a false sense of her own physical supremacy -- yes, confidence is a good weapon, but not when it's based on something other than reality. The Tae Bo infomercials used to infuriate me because they'd show the testimonial of some woman who said that she felt not only more confident, in general (a good thing), but that she felt able to handle herself if she was attacked in the street...in fact, I seem to recall her gleefully recounting how she now almost taunted potential attackers. I couldn't f***ing believe it, anyway. Got news for you, baby: Billy Blanks may be able to prevail in a street fight but all you're doing is aerobics. Terrible. Tae Bo is not a martial art and it's not self-defence.

Anyway, for my money, if you're thinking of some kind of physical training a good martial arts school is the best solution and will benefit every aspect of your life -- self defense is the least of it and that's just as well, 'cos it'll take a while to get to the point at which you can meaningfully use your fighting skills in a real situation. If you want training in the more immediate term, here's a thread from a while ago in which I linked to what I think is probably the best self-defense-workshop concept out there (Model Mugging) and the entire thread could be useful to you right now (great points in the original post, too):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=79623

Well, my response got -- big surprise -- all meandering and digression-filled, but I hope something in it is useful. Be careful and don't let them ever get you on the defensive when it's they who should be minding their p's and q's...easy to say, I know, but what they don't need to know is that you're very likely just acting the part and not necessarily convincing anyone but them of your badassedness.



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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. Thank you



...for the thought and obvious effort you put into your post. I appreciate your parsing out and addressing the salient points. I agree that the best resolution will require a far more comprehensive understanding of combat dynamics, best learned over time from a well-qualified intructor in a proven discipline.



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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-13-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
79. Don't change yourself for people like that
You are who you are. You have your own strengths, and the people you want to be more like have their own weaknesses. How do you know what would have happened if you'd been the one with the snappy insult? Maybe you'd have been the one with the bandaged face on the front page the next morning. You have developed your own defenses based on you and your abilities and your life. Trying to become someone else will cause more problems than it solves. You got out of both situations.

And you say that when you see the situation coming, you can prepare for it. When a situation is sprung on you suddenly, you need a different style of defense than when you can plan for a situation. Your politeness, your stunned moment of inaction, those are devices that let you sum up a situation, that disable the opponent until you can size up your course of action. It may not seem as cool to you as a Hollywood creation having the perfect dominant response each time. But yours is more effective in situations where someone isn't writing it from the beginning.

That doesn't mean having basic concepts of physical self-defense isn't a good idea, in case the person infringing on your space is dangerous. But as your experiences relate, they aren't usually dangerous, just annoying and socially inept. You sound like you handled your encounters well enough--you didn't escalate them, you didn't give up anything you didn't want to, you didn't let them bully you into anything (which is probably what they were trying to do, and probably why they use that technique--they probably have bullied others into going out with them). It might not make great film, but it worked well in real life.

Just my two cents. Probably wrong, as always.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. jooooooobeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Where have you BEEN?




I missed you!


:hug:



Thank you for adding your thoughts here, I always appreciate hearing from you.

Just so you know, I do hold your viewpoint in the highest regard. Whenever I post here because I'm having a difficult time sorting through some issue in life, it's usually because my brain is stuck in a fatal lateral-thinking loop and thereby unable to make any forward progress. But you always seem able to refocus my attention on "the big picture" and help me begin to triage some of the chaos. I truly appreciate your wisdom and candor. You have a very calming effect on me. Even when we disagree, which is rare. So thank you.


Having said that, regarding this issue I have to respectfully disagree with your contention that the guy in the grocery store acted as he did in an effort to get me to go out with him. Being somewhat familiar with antisocial interpersonal relationship dynamics as a result of my former career in law enforcement, I can almost guarantee that the guy in this situation was far less interested in making a potentially romantic introduction as he was in dominating/using/humiliating a lone female he found in a vulnerable position. Seriously, I would consider this type of inappropriate behavior the potential red flag of a sociopath/rapist.

Given that premise, I can't agree that I "didn't give up anything (I) didn't want to..." because I feel that I abandoned (albeit unintentionally) my principles and my personal integrity: I HATE it that he "got away with it" and that I didn't stand up for myself and for women in general. I hate it that my silence and inaction could be interpreted - at least by him - as tacit approval: "She wanted it; She sure didn't fight it; etc." I HATE it that my reaction in all likelihood boosted his confidence to do this - and probably worse - again. I feel like I let myself and my sisters down because I AM a strong enough woman to have stood up for myself - if I only had my wits about me in the moment.


I understand what you are saying about each reaction having positive and negative aspects, and about not wanting to change who I am to suit another's perception of who I am, or expectation of who I should be, but... I think taking that idea to its logical extreme would mean never finding any room for self-improvement. Which is certainly not the case here (and I don't think the point you were trying to make anyway).

So... thank you for your support and you did help to take the edge off my self-criticism (even though it might not sound that way right now), but I think we will have to agree to disagree that my response "worked well" in real life. I think I could have done much better, and I hope to do better in the future should the need arise.


Still pals, right?


:hug:


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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Still pals, but I think you're wrong
You diffused it, gave him little satisfaction. The Hollywood "emasculate the bully with quick wit or physical domination" stuff in real life angers them. He would take his anger out, on you, or on the next of your "sisters" he encountered. You might push him from being the "potential" sociopath/rapist you think you saw to the full blown real deal by pushing him around, by angering him. Whether he had fantasies of you being his next squeeze/servant/girlfriend-type or he just wanted to humiliate you for the fun of it, he has a coward/bully personality. I know that type well. I grew up with one, and watched a close friend of mine marry another one. That close friend came within seconds of dying for pushing back, and no one's life was made better down the road by her response.

I wasn't really saying "love who you are and don't try to change." I was pointing out that your instincts diffused the situation the way they did because they knew something. You did recognize the type of person, and the way to respond that would create the least danger. Just as your instincts usually warn you not to run from a growling dog, your instincts warned you not to antagonize this person, not to make him worse. If you force yourself to change from that type of responder to a more aggressive person, you are overriding your instincts. And that may cause you to misread the situation and respond in the wrong way. Like falling--when people fall their bodies naturally take the safest position, instinctively. People who try to catch themselves or interfere with their instincts are the ones who get hurt.

You already said when you have time to prepare and analyze better, you can respond differently. Part of what your instincts were doing was buying you the time to prepare, by not angering the mad dog, by backing away, by getting a better read of the situation and its danger. If you come up swinging you may find you can't win the fight, or even that you've started a fight without needing to.

It always feels better to slay the dragon, but often it's more dangerous to try. Geeze, my metaphors suck tonight.
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
83. Nah ... just learn Kung Fu
I prefer the Shaolin Do school myself.

It begins with self respect. The realization that the actions of this oaf have no business taking up any real estate in your head. He is unworthy of your space. Self respect begins with self discipline. To be self disciplined is merely to be a disciple of yourself.

Martial arts reprogram our attitudes from the bottom up, but literally rewiring our nervous systems by training anew our reflexes. This is a form of spritual revolution, an assault against all previous programming. When undertaking such a task, it is vital to have good teachers who will not glorify the martial, but who emphasize the art. It is also vital to surround oneself with good people who care about you, and about whom you care.

But I swear to you ... get a brown belt in Shaolin Do Kung Fu or similar discipline, and your will find these fools have far less power over your peace. The reasons will wind up having to do little with your ability to kick ass.

But you will also be able to kick ass. :evilgrin:
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
84. Top ten suggested responses from a guys point of view.
Edited on Fri Sep-15-06 12:15 AM by gbrooks

10) He mister do you normally try to pick up girls
while pushing a shopping cart? Let me guess
your real car is in the impound lot.

9) I think you're in the wrong place. The festering
dick ointment is on aisle 3.

8) Is that your only muscle shirt or is your mother
doing your laundry tonight?

7) I bet you have to sneak up on your dick to
masturbate.

6) Let me guess you're cruisin for chicks because
your wife and kids are doing a sleep over in
a battered family shelter.

5) If I knocked your teeth out would you be a
man and admit it or try to blame it on a guy?

4) You're in luck!! Super small condoms are on
sale today.

3) You're in luck, out of date Cheeze Smokies are
on sale today.

2) When is the last time you brushed your teeth ...
this year.

1) What's your FReeper handle Shit4Brains?



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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-15-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
85. I think you behaved fine. This was a stranger. He could have been
dangerous. No need to startle him or tell him off or do a karate move (giggle). That could only cause things to escalate. Much better to not engage. Though, you probably should have marched right over to market manager/security and informed him that you were being hassled. Remember, in a big market, its often all on tape.

I am a big dude, and I much prefer to "eat a little crow" than engage a lunatic. Just think David Caradine in Kung Fu.
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