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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:09 PM
Original message
Anybody here believe in Karma?
Despite being a Hindu belief it seems to be something universally acknowledged. I'll use an example...A guy I know was a "ladies-man" in college. He was never with one girl for too long. He finally gets married and his first child...a girl! Anyone else here have some belief in that? Or should I just go to the bar and get my bucket of beer?
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. yup...
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Is that yup on Karma or yup on the bucket of beer? n/t
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. the 'yup' is for the karma, though does not preclude the bucket o'beer...
The Teachings of Xu Yun Chapter 11 ~ The Dao Immortal ____

Chapter 11 ~ The Dao Immortal

Forty-three generations of Chan masters have passed since the Sixth Patriarch held high the Dharma Lamp. Forty-three generations of seeker have found the Way, guided by his Light. No matter how confirmed a person is in another Path, he can be guided by Chan. When sunlight comes through the window, it does not illuminate some sections of the room while leaving other parts in darkness. The entire room is lit by the Suns Truth. So, any person, no matter which Path he has chosen, can receive the benefits of Chans Lamp.

Take the famous case of the Dao Immortal Lu Dong Bin.

Lu Dong Bin was the youngest and most unrestrained of all the Dao Immortals. Actually, you could say that he was pretty wild. At least thats how he started out. In his mortal days, he was called Chun Yang...a native of Jing Chuan who lived at the end of the Tang Dynasty. That was more than a thousand years ago, but those days werent so different from ours. If a young man wanted to get ahead, he needed an education. In our time, hed get a college degree. But in those days, he had to pass the dreaded Scholars Examination. If a fellow couldnt pass this exam, he had to give some serious thought to farming. Well, Chun Yang tried three times to pass the Scholars Examination, and three times: he failed. He was frustrated and depressed. He knew he had let his family down, and that he hadn't done much for himself, either. It was his own professional future that he had doomed.

So Chun Yang did what a lot of desperate young people do, he started hanging out in wine-shops trying to drink him self to death. The path that alcohol takes went in the same direction for Chun Yang as it does for anyone else: it went straight down. As the old saying goes, first Shun Yung was drinking the wine, then the wine was drinking the wine, and then the wine was drinking Shun Yung. He was in pretty bad shape by the time the Dao Immortal, Zhong Li Quan, chanced to meet him in one of those saloons.

The Dao Immortal took an interest in the young man. Instead of trying to shorten your life with wine, he said, why don't you try to lengthen your life with Dao. Instead of a short, miserable life, Zhong Li Quan offered Chun Yang a long, happy life.

It sounded like a good deal. Chun Yang might not have had what it took to be a government bureaucrat, but he certainly had everything required to try spiritual alchemy.

Chun Yang had nothing else to do with his time so he had plenty of opportunity to practice. He was definitely motivated. I suppose that he had become aware of how far down he had gone, that hed hit bottom, so to speak. When a person realizes that he doesnt have anything to lose by looking at life from another point of view, hes more open to new ideas.

So Chun Yang had the motivation and the opportunity. It only remained to acquire the means. And that was what Zhong Li Quan was offering to supply. Hed teach him the necessary techniques. Chun Yang threw his heart and soul into the mastery of what is called the Small Cosmic Orbit, a powerful yoga practice that uses sexual energy to transmute the dross of human nature into the Gold of Immortality. He got so good at it he could make himself invisible or appear in two places at oncethat is pretty: good.

One day he decided to fly over Chan Monastery Hai Hui which: was situated on Lu Shan mountain. Saints and Immortals can do that, you know. Theyre like pilots without airplanes...or parachutes.

While he was flying around up there, he saw and heard the Buddhist monks chanting and working hard doing all the ordinary things that Buddhist monks do. So, to show off his powers and mock the monk industry, he wrote a little poem on the wall of the monasterys bell tower:

With Jewels inside my Haras treasure,
Every truth becomes my pleasure.
When day is done I can relax
My Minds without a care: to tax.
Your mindless Chan a purpose lacks.


Some such bad poetry like: that. Then he flew away. Everyday that the Abbot, Chan Master Huang Lung, looked up at the bell tower he had to read that awful poetry.

One day while the former Chun Yang ~ he was now known as the Immortal Lu Dong Bin ~ was flying around the vicinity of the monastery he saw a purple umbrella-shaped cloud rising over the monastery. This was a clear indication that something very spiritual was going on and so Lu Dong Bin thought hed come down and: take a look.

All the monks were going into the Dharma Hall so he just disguised himself as a monk and followed them in. But he couldnt fool old Abbot Huang Lung.

I dont think Ill expound the Dharma, today, growled Huang Lung. We seem to have a Dharma Thief in our midst.

Lu Dong Bin stepped forward and arrogantly bowed to the Master. Would you be kind enough, he challenged sarcastically, to enlighten me to the meaning of the expression, A grain of wheat can contain the universe and mountains and rivers can fit into a small cooking pot.

Lu Dong Bin didnt believe in the empty, ego-less state. He accepted the false view that the ego somehow survives death.

Huang Lung laughed at him, Look! A devil guards a corpse!

A corpse? Lu Dong Bin retorted. Hah! My gourd is filled with the Elixir of Immortality!

You can drag your corpse throughout eternity for all I care, said Huang Lung, But for now, get it out of here!

Cant you answer my question? taunted Lu Dong Bin.

I thought you had all the answers you needed, Huang Lung scoffed. He remembered the poem. Lu Dong Bin responded with fury. He hurled his dreaded sword, the Devil Slayer, at Huang Lung; but the Master merely pointed his finger at the flying sword and it stopped in mid-flight and dropped harmlessly to the floor. The Immortal was awestruck! He had never imagined a Chan master could be so powerful. Contrite, he dropped to his knees in a show of respect. Please, master he said, I truly do wish to understand.

Huang Lung softened towards him. Lets forget the second part about the cooking pot, he said generously. Instead, concentrate on the first part. The same mind that gives form to an arrangement of matter which it names a grain of wheat is the same mind that gives form to an arrangement of matter which it names a universe. Concepts are in the mind. Mindless Chan, as you previously put it, is actually the practice of emptying the mind of concepts, of judgments, of opinions, of ego. Then he added, remembering the poem probably, Especially the concept of ego! Lu Dong Bin brooded about the answer until he suddenly understood it. As long as he discriminated between himself and others, between desirable and undesirable, between insignificant and important, he was enslaved to the conceptual world, he was merely an Arbiter of Illusions. Nobody in his right mind wants to be that! And certainly no Dao Immortal wants to spend his life, or all eternity, either, judging between lies, deciding which ones are more convincing than others.

Overjoyed, Lu Dong Bin flew up to the tower, erased his old poem and substituted another:

I thought Id mastered my small mind.
But: twas the other way around.
I sought for gold in mercury
But illusion: all I found.
My sword came crashing to the floor
When Huang Lung pointed at the moon;
I saw the light: his truth broke through
And saved me none too soon.


Unfortunately, Enlightenment didn't make him a better poet. The point, however, is that Lu Dong Bin, despite being a Dao Immortal, was able to benefit from Chan. He so appreciated the Three Jewels ~ Buddha, Dharma, Sangha ~ that he actually acquired the title of Guardian of the Dharma. Of course, it wasn't necessary for him to convert and call himself a Chan Man. The whole lesson of his Enlightenment was that names are meaningless, so he continued being a Dao Immortal. Only now, because he understood so much more, he immediately rose through the ranks of the Immortals; and though he was the youngest of them all, he became the most prominent.

Under his inspired leadership, the Daoist Sect in the North really began to thrive. Lu Dong Bin was called the Fifth Dao Patriarch of the North.

Down South, another great Daoist, Zi Yang, also attained Enlightenment after reading Buddhist sutras. He became known as the Fifth Dao Patriarch of the South...

...But: that is another story :-)
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mad-mommy Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. don't you watch earl?
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Earl learned all about karma from Carson Daily.
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mrbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Karma has fists.........
more from the teachings of Earl.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. When you reach a certain age..
... you notice that the universe has a way of exacting retribution and of shoving your conceits where the sun doesn't shine.

That's a yes :)
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Fountain79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So what you are saying is....
you are old?
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Damn straight..
... but not THAT old, I catch on quicker than some :)
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. I am unworthy of such belief.
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koneko Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Absolutely
I'm a freaking ad for karma, both the good and the bad.
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ghostsofgiants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. Nope.
I get shit on way too much for karma to exist.
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tinfoil tiaras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. i do
b/c whenever i do something bad, it always comes back to me. It's crazy!!
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
13. I thought belief in karma demanded a belief in reincarnation.
If I'm correct, it's hardly "universally acknowledged".

Or are you talking about the "do-good-to-get-good" brand of karma? (The nonexistence of which makes books like "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" bestsellers.)
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. That's false karma
If you do something with the intent of getting something back, karma sees right through that.
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. No, it's not like that
According to the philosophy, we all get what we want. Karma is the endless cycle of actions and fruits, some of the fruits are intended and some of them are not. But performing an action in the knowledge that it will result in a particular fruit does not disqualify one from the fruit. That's not karma, that's Murphy's law, which is a different philosophy.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Murphy's Law states:
"Nothing is as easy as it looks, everything takes longer than you expect, and if anything can go wrong, it will at the worst possible moment."

I dunno how that relates to karma. :shrug:
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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Actually
if you're going to get picky about Murphy's law, the correct text is:

"If there's more than one way to do a job, and one of those ways will result in disaster, then somebody will do it that way."

The law was named by engineers working at Edwards Air Force Base after Major Edward A. Murphy, Jr., a development engineer contributing support measurement technology for a brief time on rocket sled experiments done by the United States Air Force in 1949.
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Oeditpus Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Apparently, there's a lot of confusion
as to what Murphy's Law actually says. I always thought it was as I quoted above, rather than the simplified "If anything can go wrong, it will." But Wikipedia says otherwise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy\'s_law

So I just don't know anymore. :shrug:

You are correct, though, as to the origin. :thumbsup:
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. no
simple observation over a long enough life will dissuade the clear-eyed person from any such magical belief

people who do evil for their own advantage get ahead of those of us who don't

* is president and cheney is vice president, my job pays way less than that

there is no karma, the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. logic and examples won't work on the believers
People just REALLY want to believe that there is justice, that the asshole down the street will be punished, that their good deeds will be rewarded. It's a powerful desire in some people that makes them see causal relationships that don't exist.

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Haole Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. I believe in it. I also believe nobody gets off scott free...
when they do something evil or wrong.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
16. I believe in karma and hope karma is real because Bush, Cheney,
Rummy, Condi, and the rest of the criminals have a whole lot of bad shit heading their way.
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Melynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. And most of the people who supported them
Or at least their most fanatical supporters have some bad karma coming their way.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
19. Of course
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Guava Jelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:53 AM
Response to Original message
20. Yes!! I was a victim of karma!!!
When I was 17 years old I was a member of the boy scouts of america and we were doing a first aid booth at a local Mall.
I bent my right index finger over and with morticians clay sculpted what appeared to be a severed finger .
I Thought it was so funny as I walked around the mall asking people for super glue or a band aid.
A few months later I got my hand caught in a machine at my first job mangling the same finger that I mocked up as severed!
On the same hand down to the exact Knuckle!!!
It is just to weird to be considered random.
It's part of the reason i type so shitty they don't make a 9 1/3 finger keyboard. :)
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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:07 AM
Response to Original message
22. Not Really... But I Do Enjoy It When Bad Things Happen To Bad People.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. !
:rofl:


So do I.....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. I believe "karma" basically means "cause and effect"
All our actions, based as they are in desire and fear, have consequences. These consequences, whether good or bad, ultimately lead to suffering or dissatisfaction.

In Buddhism, cultivating mindfulness is a way to free us from the illusory nature of desire and fear and, hence, eliminate (or at least diminish) our karmic influence and, consequently, our suffering.

I think many of us (myself included) use "karma" to mean some kind of cosmic justice ("Instant karma's gonna get you..."), but based on my study that's not its original meaning is.

























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billyskank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I agree
In our understanding, the thing that is bad about karma is that its performance binds one to the material world in order to suffer or enjoy the fruit. It is this effect of binding one in material existence that is the objectionable aspect of karma.
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AAARRRGGGHHH Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
26. Short answer?
I'd like to. Can anyone point the way to some good eastern philosophy texts? I've read Lao Tze and the Bhagavad Gita and I liked them but I don't think I got nearly enough out of them. I'd really like to hear from some DU'ers who follow the way and could teach something to an interested student.

Sorry for the slight hijack!
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. This may not be quite what you're looking for, but I love this book:
"The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality," by the Dalai Lama.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/076792066X/102-0699717...
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Mutley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
29. I don't know.
I see a lot of assholes living great lives, and a lot of wonderful people struggling to get through every single day. So, I dunno. :shrug:
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Madrone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. And a lot of wonderful people are MADE by struggling.
Karma isn't always just "payback" - it's also lessons to learn in life. The best people I know are the people who have suffered. Becoming a person with understanding and compassion requires some difficult lessons.
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bertha katzenengel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. YEP. I do believe in karma. And your pal's story . . . see "Switch."
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 09:38 AM by bertha katzenengel
An irredeemably use-'em and dump-'em ladies' man is murdered by three women he used and dumped. He goes before God - a male & female voice - and pleads. God lets him go back if he promises to be good - but then Lucifer steps in and says, "That's too easy. Before you claim him, give me a chance. Make him have to find one woman who truly likes him."

So he goes back.

You have to see the movie. You'll love it.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
33. What IS karma anyway?
I was about to post a "Not really" reply, but I realized that I probably don't understand the idea fully, never having studied it. Can anyone recommend a source, book or otherwise?
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #33
44. Karma follows the law of cause and effect
just do a google search and start reading, the information is out there.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
34. Oh hell yeah!
You can't believe how many bad things befell people who screwed me in the past and their karma caught up with them!

My grandfather had a clock once . . .

Oh, forget it, I think I already told that story once.

LoL
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DeposeTheBoyKing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
35. Yes. I also believe in Krama.
Seinfeldism.
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Dangerously Amused Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. My karma ran over my dogma.



:cry:



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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
42. Believe in it? I've SEEN it. More times than you'd believe.
That big old wheel, it turns and turns.

Redstone
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
43. I sure do
And that has me scared... :) Sins of the past, coming back to hit me in the face...Karma always keeps me on my toes too... :)
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
45. I don't think in this particular case this would be a case of karma.....
Karma would be his wife leaving him for another man. (I think)
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
46. no.
In fact, I believe in whatever the opposite of karma is.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Crime pays.
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I Have A Dream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
47. yes, I believe in karma. n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
48. Not as a thing that exists, no, there's no evidence for it.
As a way to act toward others, sure - like belief in gods, it's a mental construct of a concept that haven't ever been shown to actually exist but can be used for good.

Doing good for its own sake is better, though, IMHO.

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