I am 29 posts shy of 10,000. Ask me anything about Abraham Lincoln.

[NNadir]

As I've approached 10,000 posts here at DU, I feel as if I have already said everything that I have to say, to the point that I mostly repeat myself these days. (Most of my posts have been on the topic of energy.)

One subject about which I have probably not said all that much though, is the subject of the life of Abraham Lincoln, a subject which has fascinated me at different times in my life. The subject of Lincoln's life is of course the object of much discussion and wide worldwide fascination: It is estimated that more books have been written about Lincoln than any other American, possibly more books than any other person in the last 500 years, with the possible exception of William Shakespeare.

I don't think I've discussed the subject of Lincoln here at DU all that much. It seems to me that the life of Lincoln has some bearing on current events, as Lincoln took office after two Presidential terms that are generally regarded - the current situation notwithstanding - as among the worst in US history: The misguided one term Presidencies of James Buchanan and the equally incompetent Franklin Pierce. Given that the United States has been mismanaged on an unprecedented scale since the lead up to the Civil War - given that US standing has never been lower than it is now - and that the country is being torn apart by dissension, some reflection on Lincoln's life and character seems justified. We will need such a man or woman with a capacity for rising to greatness if we and our country is to survive the incredible disaster of the Bush years.

One of the more interesting things about Lincoln is that he was not before his election, all that well known. Although he would out-maneuver all of his highly sophisticated associates and overt enemies, many people thought his election a disaster, on the grounds that he was a country bumpkin, a rube with no backbone and no deeply held convictions. In modern terms, he had no executive experience and had never managed more than one other person in his life time, the distractable and excitable Billy Herndon, a man with as many weaknesses as strengths. The highest political rank Lincoln had ever achieved previous to being elected President, in fact, was as a one term Congressman, where he was regarded as a failure owing to his adamant opposition to the Mexican-American war. Elected to office of the Presidency by a minority vote, he selected for his cabinet some of the most powerful figures known on the political scene, all of whom thought they could dominate Lincoln, but in the actual event, Lincoln ended up dominating them. He was truly a remarkable man.

If you do ask me a question, I will give an answer and will specify whether the answer comes from off the top of my head or if I take the answer from one of the many Lincoln related texts in my personal library, or from the internet, I will give the reference.

Of course, it may happen that no one will ask me anything, and I will stumble haphazardly in some other way, to 10,000 posts.

[Richard Steele]

1. So, was it true? You know what I mean!

[NNadir]

8. I am guessing that you are referring to the question of Lincoln's

sexuality.

It is known that Lincoln shared a bed with men, a subject that in his time would have resulted in almost no speculation. In particular, it is known that Lincoln shared a bed with Joshua Speed, who was a lifelong friend - to the extent that Lincoln actually had real friends. However such a situation was hardly unusual in those times. Lincoln's early life involved life on what was then a very primitive frontier. Ordinary items like beds were relatively rare, as were private rooms or private apartments, particularly in wild areas such as Illinois represented in those days. It was common for men to share beds, particularly on the circuit, an arrangement that involved lawyers travelling from town to town on the frontier to try cases.

Much of Lincoln's correspondence with Speed survives, and some of it was seeking advice about women. It is difficult to find any implication of an intimate love affair in this correspondence.

It is known that Lincoln was on at least one occassion severely depressed over women, particularly his wife, the much maligned Mary Lincoln. Mrs. Lincoln, regarded as quite beautiful in her time, was considered to be of very high social standing, and Lincoln was thought to be beneath her. Nevertheless, Lincoln actively sought her affections, won them and then lost them when their first engagement was broken. Lincoln was severely distraught by the break up and is thought by some to have considered suicide. Later, of course, they would reconcile and marry.

Lincoln was also engaged to Mary Owens, an unattractive heavy woman with few talents to recommend her - from what is understood of her life. He definitely felt ambivalent about that relationship.

Billy Herndon, who was hostile to Mary Lincoln, wrote an important biography of Lincoln in which the famous love affair with Anne Rutledge is alleged. There is no real conclusive data about this relationship - all derives from Herndon's interviews with people who knew Lincoln in the town of New Salem, where he lived in his earliest manhood. Many historians accept the Rutledge story and many reject it. Mary Lincoln is noted to have been livid about the entire matter. I suspect that Lincoln may have had what we would today call a powerful crush on Ms. Rutledge, but she died before the matter could be resolved.

In spite of the many aspersions cast on Mary Lincoln, it is my opinion that although her marriage to Lincoln was unquestionably fiery and often difficult - Lincoln deeply loved his wife and he relied upon her judgement and support for his rise to greatness. I do not believe that Lincoln was gay, though of course it is impossible to state this conclusively. If he had a lover, it would have been Speed, but I really think that Speed and Lincoln were merely good friends and confidents, not lovers. Mrs. Lincoln ultimately became unbalanced, but I really think that she had good reason. With the exception of her son Robert, later Secretary of State, she would lose three children and, of course, in a violent act right next to him, her husband. I think history has treated Mrs. Lincoln poorly.

My view is that Lincoln was heterosexual.

This post comes off the top of my head.

[RoyGBiv]

14. Excellent response ...

Thank you particularly for the bit about Mary Todd Lincoln.

As much as this can be accurately determined merely by reading of descriptions of behavior, Mary is believed by many who study her life and behavior, rather than simply insult it, reveal latent sexism, or use it to bash Lincoln, to have suffered from some sort of disease akin to chronic depression or something like bi-polar disorder.

Today, she would be treated. Then, well, you know the story.

My grandmother, who looked very much like Mary Todd and was descended from one of Mary's sisters, suffered from chronic depression that was diagnosed late in her life as a mental disorder, not simply bad behavior, craziness, or, of all things, "bitchy socialite syndrome" (I got that from an actual description of Mary). Her own mother had exhibited similar traits, and my mother has the same issue, as do I. We are treated medically for it.

[NNadir]

44. That is very interesting. You are a decendent of the Todds.

Thank you for your information.

It makes sense.

[Richard Steele]

21. Well, I agree.

Although I certainly am not the Linconophile you seem to be,
I have seen the Speed correspondence, and I simply don't
see any smoking gun there, as some claim; just a sentence or two
taken out of context mixed with a whole lotta wishful thinking.

[Robeson]

60. Gore Vidal's view is that he was Bi-sexual...

.... http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/printables/050103roco02?print=true

[merh]

2. Did Abraham Lincoln really study by candle light in a

log cabin? (Sorry, I don't know as much about Lincoln as you do, thus I am at a disadvantage.)

[merh]

3. What coin or bill

contains Lincoln's image?

(Told you, I'm very limited here.)

[NNadir]

32. The penny and the fiver.

[merh]

66. again, thank you

:thumbsup:

[NNadir]

10. He did indeed. He was a voracious reader, and is known to have

travelled great distances to borrow books and to have worked hard labor in order to obtain them. His education consisted entirely of what were known as "blab schools," and he is said to have had two years of formal education.

His father, with whom Lincoln had a contentious relationship, was illiterate, but he was encouraged by his stepmother, Sarah Johnson Lincoln, to learn to read.

The most commonly available book on the frontier was the Bible, which Lincoln read extensively, although he is not generally thought to have been very religious in his early life. Lincoln was also a tremendous fan, as a boy, of Parson Weem's biography of George Washington.

Lincoln often shirked his youthful farm duties to read - much to the disgust of his father and some of his employers. He actually was seen reading books while plowing the fields.

Lincoln also read mathematics and taught himself enough about the subject to have worked as a surveyor. He had a keen appreciation for science and technology as well. One of his most famous cases - although he was ultimately not the major litigant - was the McCormick reaper case, for which he had done considerable work of a technical nature. The primary lawyer in the case, however, treated Lincoln with contempt, and kept him more or less on the sidelines. That lawyer was William Stanton, who would go on to serve as Lincoln's best Secretary of War. It was Stanton who intoned, over Lincoln's death bed, the famous words, "Now he belongs to the ages."

This post comes off the top of my head.

[merh]

18. thank you

It is a very knowledgable head indeed! :hi:

Congrats on making your milestone! :hug:

[Baselinereality]

49. Wasn't His Name "Edwin" Stanton?

This question comes off the top of my head...I haven't finished reading all the posts in this particular...posty thing.

[NNadir]

51. Yes, you are right and I am wrong.

I don't know what I was thinking. I'm writing all of this stuff waiting for the ambien to kick in.

[RoyGBiv]

4. Lincoln as Whig

What are your thoughts on Lincoln as a "Clay Whig" and proponent of the "American System," and to what degree to you feel his domestic and economic policy, aside from those elements specifically geared toward management of the Civil War, contributed to the rise of the corporate run state?

You did say "anything" ... ;-)

[NNadir]

16. Lincoln was certainly not hostile to corporations, and represented them

in many cases. In particular, he represented railroads - among the most powerful corporations of those times.

Lincoln's early career was marked by a preference for the government participating in what were then called "internal improvements," i.e., the building of infrastructure. He supported government programs to build systems of canals, the operation of which would almost certainly involve the enrichment of many people.

There was considerable corruption in the management of the Civil War procurement system, and many manufacturers sold substandard goods to the Federal Government. The origin of our modern word "shoddy" comes from "shod" and refers to Civil War boots sold to the Government that basically fell apart in a single day's march.

Lincoln was very concerned about these practices, many of which were connected with Simon Cameron, his first Secretary of War, and sometime Presidential candidate.

There is no evidence however that Lincoln ever let anyone but himself run the Government. He certainly would have found modern corporate influence very strange indeed. Note that Presidential campaigns in those times did not involve the purchase of media or media consultants. Mostly the informed citizens ran the campaign. While there was undoubtedly profiteering by contractors in the Civil War, the Union government ultimately accumulated a great deal of war materials of very high quality and a reasonable and fair price.

I think the "corporate rule" game represents an anachronism.

This post is off the top of my head.

[RoyGBiv]

26. Not quite what I was getting at ...

I was referring more how his ideas on the role of government in the economic life of the nation were derived from his Whig ideology, and how that translated into domestic policy during his administration and was then used and expanded upon by later administrations. The "game," as you put it, is not the one people play where they try to blame Lincoln for big government or for creating corporate control in his day, rather how his policies formed the foundation of the Republican ideology of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and then how and to what degree modern Republicans are a part of the pedigree.

There are at least two distinct schools of thought on this.

But I'll let it alone.

[NNadir]

33. Please don't leave it alone. I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Please elaborate. I am interested.

[RoyGBiv]

58. Two Schools ...

I'll try to summarize in an intelligent manner. I need my books to elaborate more specifically, and my brain isn't working well enough at this time of day/night to find what I need.

A bit of context:

Unlike Fearless Leader(tm), Lincoln didn't want to be War President(tm). He had specific ideas about how the nation should be managed, and he wanted to implement those ideas to expand the nation and make it a world economic leader. A good deal of this was based on Clay's "American System." Lincoln always referred to himself as a "Clay Whig" and attached himself to Clay's ideas in much the same way politicians during a previous era attached themselves to Jefferson or Hamilton. He was devoted, shall we say, to the idea that the American System was the best course for the country to take.

School One:

The American System is seen by this school as the ancestor to the emergence of corporations as the primary influence in the American economy. During his Presidency, Lincoln pushed forward domestic policies that fostered the growth of railroads as proto-corporate monoliths, to some extent funded by the government (what we would call corporate welfare) and laid the groundwork whereby future business interests could use the model of the railroad's expansion to develop themselves, sometimes (perhaps often) at the expense of individual liberty and the rights of labor and/or consumers. Lincoln was complicit in encouraging this development by being aware of where it could lead and not openly objecting to it or doing anything to reduce the possibility. This school sees a direct lineage from the Republicans of the 1860 through the modern era.

School Two:

By this line of thought, the American System was never intended to do anything like foster the growth of massive business interests protected by the "corporation as citizen" legal philosophy, but was perverted by an eventually dominant segment of the Republican party centered on business interests specifically to extend to these lengths. During his Presidency, Lincoln did in fact promote a modified form of the American System, but one geared toward internal improvements that would benefit all interests, not merely those involved in and financially benefiting from this expansion. Lincoln would have placed limits on the role of government in financing and protecting the conglomerates that eventually emerged. The Republicans of the late 19th and early 20th century merely engaged in a game of something like "waving the bloody shirt" to gather support for their initiatives by invoking Lincoln's name without any realistic support for the notion that Lincoln would have agreed to or supported their actions.

And I say "at least two" distinct schools because there are others that draw from these two and form a different line of reasoning altogether. I, for example, believe elements of both 1 and 2 are viable positions and that one can draw a direct lineage between modern Republicans of the 1860's and the modern era, but that this line of ancestry is broken in the sense that the Republicans of the 19th century were an emerging party with fractures in ideology and that the "corporate" wing eventually gained control, shaking off its roots, in effect "cleansing" itself of it socially responsible aspects. Lincoln's own ideology in some respects fit with this corporate wing, but not in all, as he did in fact have a strong social conscience, and I do not believe his ideology would have allowed for the emergence of the corporate control we have today. In other words, my position is that Lincoln's ideology, as descended from Whig ideology, was perverted for purposes he would not have tolerated.

As a somewhat related aside, you mentioned profiteering during the war. My view of Lincoln not allowing the expansion of corporate control is in fact based in his response to that. In short, he despised it, looked for legal ways to end it, and even privately offered the idea that those who engaged in it should be, effectively, taken out and shot.

[NNadir]

63. Thank you for your interesting insights.

[Baselinereality]

67. Here's Your Point, Right?

I, for example, believe elements of both 1 and 2 are viable positions and that one can draw a direct lineage between modern Republicans of the 1860's and the modern era.

Direct lineage?

There is NO direct lineage between the advent of the Republican party and today's Republican party.

But, that's not to say that you won't succeed in making that connection. After all, in less than 300 years the Roman Empire absorbed the message of Jesus, co-opted it and made it their own, something that they could tax and control.

So, it would not surprise me in the least that Republicans today want to co-opt the message of Lincoln even though his message was completely 180 degrees different from what they profess. The Romans didn't believe in Jesus, either: they just co-opted what the people were into 300 years after the fact.

"The only person that would subscribe to the corporate philosophy is that being that does not mind profiting off of the suffering of others."

[RoyGBiv]

68. No ...

You'll note that there was a comma following "and the modern era" with quite a bit of text after it.

Let me offer you a little advice. I've engaged in discussions about Lincoln and other related subjects with some serious heavyweights in the historical community, all of which are thirty times at least more knowledgeable than me, and I have learned much from them. One of the things I learned was how to avoid a baited discussion involving some controversial historical subject offered by someone who wants to criticize or belligerently argue a selectively quoted point.

And so I will do that here.

[Baselinereality]

69. Okay. Trust Me, Unlike Mr.10000 Posts, I'm No Lincoln Expert.

God I hope you don't have to be smart to type in this forum, for I fear I'm fooked.

Sigh.

I imagine 100 years from now, if Bush Jr has screwed things up enough, they'll be discussing him.

When I studied Lincoln, I learned that many people, even "William Stanton," thought he was a gorilla. People during his time thought he was completely incapable of leading the country. They were proved wrong.

So.

(Sucking my teeth.)

I LOVE history. I'm not, like, completely absorbed in the bones and minutiae, but I relate to history as a human that could have very well lived in another era.

But, just because George W. Bush WANTS to be a good president doesn't mean that he is going to be simply because he compares himself to a famous president in the past.

George W. Bush IS the worst president in American history. He simply is. Because he was in office when the planes struck, he has led us into a Holy War that this secular nation cannot extract herself from.

What does this have to do with Abraham Lincoln?

Sigh.

Greatness has more to with actions than events.

[RoyGBiv]

71. Here's the deal ...

I approached the question in what I believed to be the spirit intended. NNadir is an *extremely* intelligent individual, as you will likely learn with continued presence here. I follow his posts religiously in the Science forum because I know when I read those posts I'm going to get an intelligent commentary I can trust as one that is educated. Therefore, when he posted a casual call for questions about Lincoln, I decided to offer a complex question because I know he can handle complex questions. His response was to a somewhat different question than I was asking, but that's basically my fault, and if I had asked the specific question answered, it was a good response. I expanded on my intended question, at his request, and there you are. We exchanged information and opinions and no one got blown up in the process.

The opinion I offered was less opinion than context for the original question. I did offer my opinion, in a very trivial form, but it was not presented in such a way so as to suggest I, or any reasonable person, could draw a parallel between the Idiot in Chief today and Lincoln. In fact I began the more lengthy commentary with a bit of sarcasm about Chief Idiot, noting that Lincoln was his exact opposite.

That said, one can draw a line of descent between the original Republican party or the Whigs and some aspects of the modern Republican party, but such a line by its very existence does not imply a positive association. Providing a detailed lineage is not my purpose here, nor has it been, but in order to provide the information requested, I did suggest the terms, in an extremely simplified form, by which such a line can be drawn, noting, clearly, that in my view this theoretical line is broken by the fact that modern Republicanism is, at best, a descendant of a single faction of the 1860's Republicans, who were, quite clearly, a party of many, varied interests that had not yet developed a core ideology common to all members. And that would be the point of departure for this discussion were it to continue: The Republican Party was formed from different interests, all of which had a single common trait that unified them momentarily. With the end of the Civil War, the unifying ideology disappeared, and the factions emerged more clearly with one in particular becoming dominant eventually. By the 20th century, the Republican party was not what it was at its inception. Lincoln's policies, and how he pursued them, are not only relevant to the examination of this process, but essential since he was the first, clear party leader in a position of national importance, and his name and claimed policies were invoked by every generation of Republicans after him. Given that this position was more important in the overall history of the nation than that of any Republican since, to avoid such questions is avoiding the essential foundations of how our country has developed since his time.

[Baselinereality]

72. I'm Dealing With Conflict.

Imagine a woman in blue jeans staring at her stomach, sighing, grabbing the excess fat, jiggling, letting go, then sighing again. She takes a swig from her vodka/tonic and yells to no one in particular "Get me out of this bra!"

Now you've pictured my mother.

Or maybe me.

Oh.

Israel and Lebanon. And the Republican Party. IRAQ!! Hellooo, how stupid am I? Iraq.

I think about Lincoln a lot. Well. Probably not as much as the woman at work that I wish would fall in love with me. He's not as important as she is. Well. Maybe historically he is.

George W. Bush's insistence (and, believe me, it is extremely, EXTREMELY, difficult to refer to this particular president by his full name) on being considered important is just one more sign of the man's insanity as far as I'm concerned.

George W. Bush does not have the mental capacity to handle the presidency of America. In other place or time, the castle would be stormed, I think. As it is, the man has advisors and wise people beyond his years. Not that they matter, as he doesn't listen to them anyway.

[RoyGBiv]

73. Okay then n/t

[Baselinereality]

74. Well Alrighty Then.

I have a tendency to take people to strange places. That doesn't mean that I'm, tsk, weird. But, all the fundamentalists would find me very weird.

Anyway.

I'm not nearly as freaky as you think I am. For example, I cannot stand 'Star Trek.'

Just thought I would throw that out there.

And don't even get me started about the 'X Files.'

If you love either one of those shows then perhaps it is best that we don't talk. I don't think we could begin to bridge the gap.

Okay.

[Baselinereality]

53. I Haven't Read The Rest of the Learned Responses To Your Comment, But...

Abraham Lincoln, from the moment he entered office, was embroiled in a civil war. I doubt he cared about anything else but the fact that his country was at war. He didn't have time to establish domestic policy because his domestic was blown the hell up.

Abraham Lincoln was neither Republican nor Democrat. He was AMERICAN.

That is why he is the greatest president we've ever had.

With that, I will continue to read further comments.

But, please, don't be a jackass with pointless questions about whether or not Lincoln supported corporations. I mean, seriously, how stupid are we supposed to be?

This answer came off of the top of my head.

[RoyGBiv]

61. Actually, he did ...

Lincoln's domestic policy is not studied as intensely by some Lincoln scholars because of the Civil War, but it was disctinct and firmly engaged throughout his administration. Economic scholars most often engage it, but other disciplines do as well, including Lincoln scholars themselves.

Frankly, if you think Lincoln didn't have a domestic policy, you lump him with some very bad Presidents, including the current one, as ignoring the livelihood of the nation while it was at war.

And the question is not pointless, nor am I anything like a jackass, thank you. It's a serious question asked in all seriousness, and very serious scholars ask the question often. I'd offer my own insults at this point, but this thread doesn't deserve them.

[Baselinereality]

62. Sigh.

Let me first admit that I am the jackass for suggesting that you are one. It's horrible how rude I can be when I think that I am protected by the internet. I didn't mean to call you a jackass; anyone who chats in these message boards is, by their very actions, some of the most passionate, brilliant people this country has to offer. What I meant to suggest is that your question was asinine.

Har har har.

He had his strikes and turmoil to deal with. Race riots. He had those, especially after he initiated conscription.

No, I think I know what you're asking. "How did Lincoln's policies keep the Union functioning during the Civil War?" I may be over stretching my communication boundaries, but that seems to be the jist of it. How in the hell did that man hold it together?

And I like to think that the economic demands of a war culture helped keep the northern states together. He didn't have to DO anything, per se...it was the money that did the talking.

And, I'd also like to think that, after he made the Emancipation Proclamation, even though it upset a lot of people they, up in the North, didn't really think it affected them all that much so they didn't raise that much of a fuss. They couldn't really picture 12,000,000 storming their borders to take their jobs, (as opposed to today), so they didn't freak out too much. Or, rather, they saved most of their freak outs for until the war was over.

But, seriously: I apologize for referring to you as a jackass. I can be very rude in these posts and I don't mean to be.

[RoyGBiv]

65. That's not what I'm asking ...

The follow-up explains in more detail what the question involved.

Apology accepted, I guess, but the question isn't "asinine" either, unless you consider people like Eric Foner, Thomas Ferguson, Brooks Simpson, et al to have asked an asinine question as well.

[TroubleMan]

5. What Kung-Fu movie had him as a WWII general kidnapped by Japanese?

One of the funniest movies you'll ever see, too.

[NNadir]

17. I have no idea. You'll have to tell me.

[TroubleMan]

41. Fantasy Mission Force....one of the weirdest movies ever

Check out this review:

http://www.opuszine.com/blog/entry.html?ID=2472

This movie is extremely funny when highly intoxicated (I wouldn't recommend it sober).

[NNadir]

43. Whew!

[idgiehkt]

6. were his suits Armani or Versace?

sorry, I'm so sleepy.

[NNadir]

20. Neither. Lincoln was a poor dresser generally.

His wife was mortified that he often greeted guests at their Springfield home in his shirtsleeves.

He would sometimes hold important conferences in his pajamas. He was a thoroughly overworked man and did not have a single "vacation" in his tenure in the White House.

On the circuit, like most lawyers in his time, he would sometimes arrive in court drenched and covered with mud.

[idgiehkt]

23. So, he was Grunge?

Neil Young may have been the Godfather, but Lincoln was the Grandfather?

[NNadir]

39. Grunge? I don't know.

He wasn't very concerned about personal appearance.

His wife was though. It was a source of tension in their marriage.

[Baselinereality]

54. Did You Know...

He died in a Brooks Brothers jacket?

I just finished reading "Manhunt," and that detail struck me.

Congratulations on reaching 10,000 posts, by the way. I don't know you, but based on your conversation about Abraham Lincoln I have to say I respect you.

I just joined DU a couple few weeks ago. I can't imagine myself hitting 10,000 posts, even though I have so many incredibly fascinating things to say.

I'm just glad to have found this outlet. I thought I was going to go insane prior to. Not that I won't now, I'm just sayin'.

[u4ic]

7. When was his...

...ah...first time...

:hide:

[NNadir]

22. I don't know. I don't think anyone does.

Lincoln had a very bawdy sense of humor.

It would not be surprising to learn that he availed himself of the services of frontier prostitutes, but on the other hand, there is no evidence to support this contention.

This post comes off the top of my head.

[Tikki]

9. Hey, how would Abraham Lincoln pronounce the word 'nuclear'?

Tikki

[NNadir]

24. The atomic nucleus was discovered in 1911 by Ernest Rutherford.

Lincoln would have had no occasion to say the word, since he was dead more than 50 years.

However Lincoln had a very strong Kentucky rural accent. Although he was an elegant speaker whose utterances are among the most beautiful produced in the English language, the way he actually pronounced the words themselves was probably less than impressive. His voice was high pitched it is said. His accent was not that of an educated man. It is known that he said "thar" instead of "there" for instance and used non standard pronunciations for many words.

His spelling was also poor.

[NashVegas]

11. Why Didn't He Use Better Acne Medication?

Inquiring minds ..

[NNadir]

25. Lincoln considered himself ugly as did many of his contemporaries.

He often made jokes about his appearance.

Today, most Americans think of his face as beautiful. I know I do.

He wasn't particularly a vain man.

[begin_within]

12. How would you state his political orientation and beliefs in today's terms

[NNadir]

27. Lincoln was definitely not a conservative. He sought changes, broad

changes, and was open to the role of government as a participant, but not a dominant force, in daily life.

Definitely government became a stronger force after his tenure, and he could be quite heavy handed.

Most people were aware that after the Lincoln Presidency they were living a very different country than they had lived in every before. Since Lincoln changed almost everything, he cannot be described as conservative, as a conservative is simply a person who believes that nothing should be tried for the first time.

That said, it is difficult to place Lincoln in a modern description such as "liberal" or "conservative."

He was considered too moderate by the radicals of his day - his stand against slavery was not as strong as some of his contemporaries. It is doubtful however that a more radical President could have succeeded in making the changes as Lincoln did. Lincoln kept very much to himself, and frequently used stories to avoid answering questions in a way that would constrain his options. Almost everyone who knew him thought of him as something of an enigma. My opinion is that he kept his options open and thought on his feet. He placed ideology behind pragmatics, that is for sure.

He was firm in believing that slavery was a great moral wrong, but was early in his Presidency able to compromise on this issue in ways that offend modern sensibilities. He was definitely one of the least racist of his contemporaries. Fredrick Douglass, who came to know many powerful people said of Lincoln that Lincoln was the only great man he'd ever met who did not remind Douglass of the difference in their races. Lincoln went out of his way to solicit Douglass's impressions of the Second inaugeral address, Lincoln's second most famous speech, and did so publicly with great deference to Douglass's opinion. Douglass described the speech as a "sacred effort," although Douglass would note later that Lincoln was the "white man's President."

[begin_within]

29. Today's republicans are quick to point out that "Lincoln was a Republican"

[NNadir]

38. They're full of shit. The meaning of the word has changed since 1861.

In 1861, I would have been a Republican, but I can assure you that such a possibility is now inconceivable.

[sleipnir]

13. Is it true that every 30 minutes there is a lull in the conversation AND

because someone is thinking of Abraham Lincoln?

Is it true?

I heard that it was...

[NNadir]

28. I am not sure of that. I think about Lincoln often.

[Baselinereality]

56. Not To Be An Ass, But...

We'd probably be better off if we thought more about the example that Abraham Lincoln gave to our country.

Part of me wonders if the reason that we don't do that is because Southern Baptist politics seems to dominate our country, and they'll be damned if they're going to recognize the one president that truly, truly, I mean truly, maintained our country. I mean, how can they, with so many Confederate flags prominently displayed on gun racks and bumpers throughout the South?

Oh, well. I'm just thinkin'.

[JohnKleeb]

15. Hmm what would you call his legacy to the American people

Saw a really good montage that my history professor put together of what the Lincoln Memorial means to us now and I have to say it was really moving.

[NNadir]

30. His greatest legacy is the protection of the American constitution.

He made great strides in seeing that the constitution was extended to include people who were not White males, but much of that work would not be completed - if it has every been completed - until long after his death.

On a personal level, he demonstrated the (then) unique American capacity for social mobility.

[JohnKleeb]

35. That to me is the greatest tragedy of the Compromise of 1876

Hayes and his people wanted power so much they were willing to screw the Blacks that had gained their rights in Reconstruction. If they would have just let Tilden have the White House, I feel they oculd have reimplented the stuff.

[NNadir]

42. Yes, that was most unfortunate.

It set back civil rights in this country by about 100 years.

I hold a high opinion of U.S. Grant, and I think that his Presidency has been considered a failure unjustly. Grant's policy on the rights of African Americans set the country on a course that may have lead to a society in which all Americans enjoyed full rights - with the obvious exception of women, who sadly would have to wait until the twentieth century.

Grant, in my view, was an outstanding American, and he managed some very difficult issues.

[RoyGBiv]

47. Have you read _Let Us Have Peace_

... by Brooks Simpson?

I (sorta) know Brooks. (I know him from a discussion forum in which we both participated for years and have had many discussion with him on such issues. Friends of mine know him more personally.)

This part of the bio doesn't deal directly with Grant's Presidency, but it sets the stage for it, and if I'm not mistaken Brooks is working on the follow-up.

He also wrote The Reconstruction Presidents, which is a comparative analysis of, obviously, the Reconstruction Presidents.

Brooks knows Grant like the back of his hand, and given your opinion of Grant, I think you'd enjoy his writing if you haven't been exposed to it yet.

[NNadir]

50. I will definitely check it out if I have the opportunity. Thanks for the

recommendation.

[Baselinereality]

57. Protection of the Constitution in His Time Involved Slavery.

Slavery was a constitutional right in 1860.

He wasn't great because he protected the Constitution. What made him great was that he realized that he had to take a risk, and in 1863 he wrote the Emancipation Proclamation.

If he hadn't been killed, who knows whether or not the 13th(?)-15th amendments would have been passed.

Not that the 14th amendment has helped anyone but a corporation, but that's beside the point.

Lincoln risked everything, including public opinion, for what he knew was right. And he was killed for it.

As was Martin Luther King, Jr., as was Ghandi, as was Robert Kennedy.

You believe, you lead, you die.

[Katina]

19. how often

did Lincoln trim his beard?

:evilgrin:

[NNadir]

31. I don't know. He grew his beard only during his Presidency.

Before that he was clean shaven. I have no idea how fast his beard grew though.

One of the striking things about Lincoln was how rapidly he aged during his tenure as President. Had he not been assassinated, I think he might have well died in office from exhaustion.

[MnFats]

34. Did he have Marfan's Syndrome?

I've heard lots of speculation....his elongated, gaunt facial features, long fingers etc....can you settle this one? thnx!

[NNadir]

37. This question about Lincoln's health is often raised.

Some of Lincoln's DNA is still available from the blood stains associated with his assassination. There has been some talk of using this blood to determine the matter, since Marfan's syndrome is genetic. I believe, but do not know, that these tests have not as yet been conducted.

The answer is obtainable (and may have been obtained) but I don't know the definitive answer.

Here is a book that discusses this issue:

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/11_00/Lincolns_dna_review.php

I think I read it some time ago, but I don't recall the details.

[ContraBass Black]

36. What color was his belly button?

Mad props to anyone who gets the reference.

[NNadir]

40. I don't get it.

[LostInAnomie]

45. Why does he look so much like his real mother?

It's crazy!

[NNadir]

48. Are you certain that that is how Nancy Hanks actually looked?

I don't believe there are any existent daguerreotypes of her, and if this is such a case, I would be interested to know the source.

This may have been a drawing reconstructed by people who knew her, but even in that case, it is interesting. She died when Lincoln was very young, of milkweed poisoning, a disease that comes from drinking the milk of cows who have eaten the milkweed plant.

Nancy Hanks was an illegitimate child. This troubled Lincoln a great deal. It is thought that her real father was a prominent Virginian.

I have always thought that Lincoln didn't look all that much like his father, who was photographed. There is some resemblance to be sure, but the father, to whom Lincoln was not close, lived until the age of photography. Thomas Lincoln was short. Lincoln did not attend his father's funeral, but may have paid to have his father photographed.

One of the most complete sets of photographs relating to Lincoln's life is the Kunhardt collection. It is very comprehensive and has been published in book form. The picture you produce here was not included.

Again, I'd be very interested in the source, since I have never seen that picture.

[TroubleMan]

52. Piqued my curiosity......Here's a google image search of her.

http://images.google.com/images?&num=50&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&lr=&as_ft=i&as_qdr=all&as_dt=i&as_rights=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi&q=Nancy%20Hanks

on edit...

check out this explantion of the painting:

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/126libo/126visual5.htm

[Baselinereality]

59. Well, They Were VERY Poor...

I doubt they could afford to have portraits made.

[UrbScotty]

46. In what year did his last direct descendant die? (nt)

[NNadir]

55. Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith died in 1985. He was sterile.

He liked racing boats and beautiful women.

Here's a link:

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/d/u/n/Terence-L-Duniho/GENE5-0003.html?Welcome=994421501

Lincoln's only child to survive to an old age was Robert Todd Lincoln. He is the only one of Lincoln's son to have declined to bury in the Lincoln family tomb, where Eddie, Willie and Tad are buried. He felt that his own achievements justified his interment at Arlington Cemetary, which indeed they did. He was a very wealthy man, much more wealthy than his wealthy father.

Willie, who died from Typhoid contracted from the White House plumbing was said to have been a genius, although he was a child when he died. He was probably Lincoln's favorite son. Lincoln actually had his son disinterred after his burial to look at him one more time. Mrs. Lincoln suffered greatly from Willie's death.

Robert Todd Lincoln was a very successful man, having been Secretary of State and a highly paid President of the Pullman car company. He lived until 1926.

Tad died of tuberculosis, not long after his father's death.

[Hippo_Tron]

64. George W Bush, Great President or The Greatest President?

[Baselinereality]

70. I'll Put You Down For 'Great'. EOM

[NoPasaran]

75. How would Lincoln have implemented Reconstruction?

I realize this calls for a lot of speculation, but how would Lincoln have balanced the need for the economic, educational and political advancement of the newly-emancipated with the need for the reintegration of the defeated southern states into the national body politic? Was "forty acres and a mule" or something similar ever actually on the table?

[NNadir]

77. This is one of the great loaded questions of history.

Because Lincoln was assassinated - on Good Friday no less - he received instantaneous near deification and all many factions claimed to be acting as they claimed he would have acted, particularly in the matter of reconstruction. This of course, is similar to the case of Jesus, on to whom many people project justifications for conflicting actions. It is probably the case that all of these people were wrong in their claims, that neither Jesus nor Lincoln would have acted in quite the ways that those appealing to them act.

Here on my own impressions of how Lincoln may have behaved, for what they are worth:

It is well known that Lincoln pursued the American Civil War under the legal theory that the Confederacy did not exist as a legal entity. He refused to acknowledge the legitimacy of any organs of government organized under the confederacy, other than those required by the official, highly formalized, terms of military engagement that existed in those times. He was very lawyerly in this insistence. When forced by circumstances near the close of the war to Confederate authorities, he referred to the Confederate Legislature of Virginia only as the body "who have acted as the legislature" of Virginia. After the military occupation of Richmond he briefly considered allowing that legislature to convene to vote itself out of the Confederacy, and then, on further reflection, reversed himself and denied permission for them to do so.

Only on one occasion did he actually agree to enter into anything like direct negotiations with members of the Confederate government - and only then only after the war was clearly and inexorably being won and after the personal entreaties of General Grant, with whom he had established a close and warm working relationship characterized by the deepest mutual respect and understanding.

I am referring to the famous meeting between Lincoln, Seward, Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, the Confederate Assistant Secretary of War, John Campbell, and Confederate Senator
R.M Hunter. Lincoln had served in the US House of Representatives with Alexander Stephens and had a very high personal respect for Stephens' mind and had clearly been an admirer of Stephens. (Whether Stephens was even aware of Lincoln during Lincoln's House tenure, is less than certain.) It soon became very clear during the negotiations that Lincoln's person regard for Stephens - who he greeted very warmly - would not transfer into any concessions. During the meeting one of the confederate commissioners - I forget which - indicated that Mr. Lincoln's stance was that all of the Confederates, including the commissioners themselves, were regarded as traitors suitable for hanging. Lincoln stated quite clearly that this was in fact the case but that he intended to be very conciliatory in the advent of a Confederate surrender and would not engage in very much hanging, if any.

I think Lincoln's attitude toward may best be summed up in the parting from this meeting. He helped Stephen's put on his coat and then remarked to Stephens, "Well Stephens, we have failed to do anything for our common country, but is there anything that I can do for you personally?" Stephens replied that his nephew was a prisoner of war and that he would most appreciate a parole for his him. Lincoln complied with this request immediately, inviting Stephens' nephew, IIRC, to the White House for a brief interview before sending him south. In pointing up this small matter, I am suggesting that Lincoln was being legally inflexible and harsh, but intended to be as magnanimous as possible in the in practical ways.

Lincoln's last public speech called for the recognition of the Louisiana State Legislature elected by that 10% of the Louisiana public who had signed loyalty oaths. This was a very controversial approach and was marked by much dissension on the part of the radical wing of the Republican Party, who preferred a far more punitive approach. There were several members of this wing who hoped for Lincoln's assassination. However Lincoln was anxious to get things as close to normal as was possible as quickly as possible, even if it included some legal fictions such as the notion that governments determined by 10% of the electorate truly were democratic. (On the other hand, truly democratic governments had started the war in the first place.) I think he personally wished to be the President of the whole United States and he was anxious to make such a reality come to be as soon as was possible. This meant functioning State Governments that were loyal to the Union.

Lincoln told a story about a drunkard who had pledged to abstain, but hinted strongly that he would not mind a little liquor being put in his lemonade "unbeknowst to me." He told this story when asked about how he would like to deal with Jefferson Davis after the war. He was widely interpreting this to mean that he would not mind if Davis escaped from the country without explicit approval of Lincoln, that would be fine with Lincoln. He clearly did not want to be in the position of having to decide on the question of hanging Mr. Davis.

Lincoln's two greatest Generals, Grant and Sherman, both offered generous surrender terms to Confederate armies, Grant going so far as to offer general pardon from prosecution to all surrendered Confederate officers, including Robert E. Lee. When Andrew Johnson, after Lincoln's assassination, tried to invalidate these terms, Grant threatened to resign rather than go back on the terms. Lincoln spent much of the last weeks of his life with Grant at City Point, his visit to the front being his only real "vacation" during his terms of office. I very much doubt that Grant, in particular, who understood Lincoln almost perfectly, would have offered these without Lincoln's tacit or explicit approval. In almost all matters, Grant was very much obedient to Lincoln's orders and intentions. Even though Lincoln gave Grant wide latitude in military matters, he clearly restricted Grant's right to participate in political matters. It is known that Grant directly asked Lee, after the surrender to meet with Mr. Lincoln, an offer that Lee declined. Undoubtedly Grant knew that Lincoln would have no objection whatsoever to such a meeting.

Lincoln was aware of the surrender terms extended to Lee and did not countermand them in any way.

Sherman's acceptance of the surrender of Johnston was very, very liberal and ultimately was rejected by the government - but this was after Lincoln's assassination, which hardened everyone's hearts. I do not believe that Lincoln would have accepted these terms either, since they clearly extended into the political realm, but Sherman, a very complex character who had met Lincoln early in his Presidency and held him in contempt originally, always cited Lincoln's magnanimity during their last meeting at City Point, toward the end of the war.

Lincoln's attitude can best be summed up by his own words to his Generals at City Point, which, like many of Lincoln's utterances was metaphorical: "Let 'em up easy," he said.

Had Lincoln persisted in this manner, he would have faced very difficult issues with Congress. However Lincoln did enjoy close personal friendships with some radicals, notably Charles Sumner. He probably would have handled matters in a much more sophisticated manner than Andrew Johnson did, and I don't think that Lincoln would have been impeached, as Johnson was, although there may have been some noise about just such a move.

All of this bears on the question of Southern racism. Like most white Americans of his time, Lincoln was clearly a racist, at least as we understand it in modern terms. However Lincoln exhibited great flexibility of mind and was clearly learning a great deal about African Americans in the course of the war and clearly his thinking was evolving all during the war. He always personally detested slavery, but he held fast for a long time to resisting any idea that he had any legal authority to end it where it already existed. The war was basically about his insistence that slavery should not be extended and not about ending it. Lincoln refused, under great political pressure to do so, to rescind emancipation, once decided upon, and he gave great respect to the efforts of African American soldiers, without whom the Union may have well lost the war. He lobbied hard for the approval of the 13th amendment to the Constitution banning slavery, and used patronage and every possible means to assure it's adoption. He considered Frederick Douglass a personal friend, and made a great display of remarking on that friendship in the reception after his second inauguration, where Douglass's admission had almost been denied on the grounds he was African American. He met with Douglass several times, and worked hard to address Douglass's concerns and views, within the limits of what was politically possible for the times.

Lincoln is known to have favored the extension of voting rights to "the most intelligent" of the "black race." How he decided to determine who, exactly, was "the most intelligent" is unclear. I tend to take a generous view of this obviously racist view and view it as an element of Lincoln leading, easing the path to general public acceptance of African American sufferage by incremental steps, by first saying "most intelligent" but actually meaning everyone. This is exactly how he proceeded through much of his Presidency, by slowly working the issue until his real goals - which he seldom stated - were satisfied.

Lincoln's historical stature would probably be somewhat diminished had he survived for reconstruction. It is clear that he could not have satisfied everyone. He was exhausted by the war, and had worked under incredible strain that is almost unimaginable. It is difficult to understand how he maintained what sanity he had, given the pressures he faced. I think he suffered horribly and that every loss to his country under the conditions took a part of his soul and a part of his flesh. It is tragic that he never knew peace. Still it almost certain that whatever Lincoln did about reconstruction, it would have reflected something of his true stature as an American who truly "belongs to the ages."

(This post, my 9999th, comes off the top of my head.)

[NoPasaran]

79. Thank you for your very well-reasoned reply

And congratulations on hitting 10,000!

This is the best thread I've read on DU in a long, long time.

[NNadir]

80. And thank you for your kind words.

[NewWaveChick1981]

76. Did he ask to have his likeness on the penny?

:P :hi: Only two more to go til 10,000! Hope this helps!

[NNadir]

78. No. I think Lincoln would have been very surprised by the honor paid

to him.

I think he would have been amazed to have been honored by any placement on currency, and I think he would have never dreamed of having a huge Memorial built in his honor in Washington D.C.

He was a very modest, if ambitious, man. Mostly he acted through a sense of duty, and not through a sense of self importance. He clearly placed his country above himself.

According to his wife, his intention after his second term, had he lived to complete it, was to go back to Springfield and to resume his law practice. (I don't actually think this would have happened.) This is, in fact, one of the few points on which Mary Lincoln and Billy Herndon agreed, that Lincoln wanted little else but to return to his old life.

Lincoln is said to have asked Herndon not to change the name of their law firm, Lincoln and Herndon, when he left for Washington, or at any time thereafter.

This is my 10,000th post. Thank you for offering me the opportunity to make it.

Mostly it has been a privilege to post at DU and I thank all the members of this site, friendly and not so friendly, for the opportunity to have expressed my views.

:grouphug: