Am I elitist?

[bertha katzenengel]

This is NOT calling out - I'd like serious opinions on something and I have to quote one of my posts to ask the question. My apologies to the person to whom this quote is in reply.

The post is in reply to the opinion that people who appreciate Shakespeare are elitist. Please, do not make any direct comments on that opinion!

ALL that I hope to get from this thread is this: from reading my post, please tell me if I AM elitist because I appreciate Shakespeare. Really. I am so het up over so many things these days that I have a hard time understanding myself. :eyes:

Before I ever read anything but his sonnets, I had to rewind every scene in "Hamlet" at least twice, then pause the damned thing, so I could figure out what was being said. Even after that, it took a long time before I could read more than a page of the play and understand it without stopping after every phrase. I still have trouble with his plays - and always had trouble with his poetry. But it's worth it to me.

That it's not worth it to you is understandable. It's a bitch. I get your point about "plain English," but so much would be lost to the reader of "Shakespeare for Dummies." Out of that you'd just get the gist of the stories he wrote. There is so much more - and like I said, I don't know how to explain what I mean. I wish to hell I did.

???

[OhioBlue]

1. no bertha, it is not elitist.

it might be passionate, but surely not elitist.

I would probably be considered red necked by many - I live in an apartment, like country music and nascar, my b/f drives a pick-up and wears a flannel shirt - I love it.

However, I too understand that you can't just read Shakespeare like a Cosmo magazine. You have to find an understanding and take your time with it. My favorite is Othello.

[bertha katzenengel]

2. Reminds me of Mrs. V.

She's a total redneck, from east Tennessee, but - well, for one example, her favorite opera (a redneck with a favorite opera?) is Aida, and her favorite classical work is Berlioz's Messe Sollenelle.

:bounce: thanks for replying. :hi:

[Blue-Jay]

3. I like Ol Will, and I'm not an "elitist".

In fact I hate the way the RWers have demonized and corrupted the word "elitist". To them, it means "educated", and that's a bad thing.

[bertha katzenengel]

6. "To (RWers) it means "educated", and that's a bad thing." Hear, hear!

:eyes:

[Jets2Brazil]

4. The problem is we teach Shakespeare all wrong...

At least at the High School level. I thought Shakespeare was absolutely pointless when I read a play here or there in High School (and I loved English). When I got to college and took an entire semester of Shakespeare, THEN it all made sense. It takes a play or two to get the rhythm of the language, the vernacular, the historical context, etc.

Teaching "Romeo and Juliet" in one week, sandwiched between "Of Mice and Men" and "Death of a Salesman" (which is how it was done way back in the day) just doesn't cut it, and turns off an awful lot of people.

Besides, its okay to be an elitist about Lit, Music, Beer, or Art. Just not all of them at the same time.

[bertha katzenengel]

5. "Just not all of them at the same time." ---

:rofl:

I barely remember high school, but I do remember Mrs. Klein, who taught English. She was wrinkled, drawn, and haughty. Talked down to us. "You kids don't appreciate Shakespeare, that's what's wrong with you today" (late 70s). BTW, this wasn't lit class - it was grammar.

I don't know if everything was taught wrong at my high school, or if I just didn't absorb any of it. I'd surely like to try again, though.

:hi:

edited for grammar - Mrs. Klein will haunt me tonight.

[Jets2Brazil]

9. It takes some time...

But it's worth it. Plus, I had the benefit (again, in college, not in high school) of teachers who were enthusiastic about pointing out how absolutely dirty a lot of Shakespeare was. A cigar is NEVER just a cigar.

Oh yeah, and people should pride themselves in their reasonable and selective elitism! I sneer at Tom Clancy and Daniel Steele, and take pride in reading the most dense, elliptical post-modern crap I can get my hands on...but I'm also obsessed with zombie movies, video games, and "Cops". Go figure.

[bertha katzenengel]

12. Have you ever read author Kazuo Ishiguro?

You might like his stuff. He won the Booker Prize for The Remains of the Day. Absolutely heartbreaking. His subsequent novel, The Unconsoled -- I have to confess to not being able to get through a third of it. It was extremely dense and elliptical. Very tough reading. I'd like to try again.

Anyway, he sounds like someone you might enjoy. :hi:

[Jets2Brazil]

15. I've heard of him because of the Remains of the Day...

Which I KEEP meaning to read but haven't got around to reading. (still working my way through Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell...see, I like books about Wizards too! I can't be too much of an elitist!)

Plus, I'm kind of a poser when it comes to stuff that's TOO po-mo. I've read the first five chapters of Gravity's Rainbow at least five times...one of these days I'll finish...

[Zookeeper]

18. Zookid #3, who is eleven years old....

read Jonathan Strange and LOVED it. Maybe I should read it too?

[Jets2Brazil]

19. It's a LOT of fun...

I'm really enjoying it. Actually, that's funny that you're taking recommendations from your 11 year old. I have an 11 year old son, and we trade books all the time. I got him to read Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy, and he gave me "the Thief Lord" which was a fun read as well.

Oh my...there I go again, losing elitist cred. I took a seminar in Ulysses!! I've read Ovid! I've got a firm grounding in the liberal arts!! (this is a lost cause, add YA fiction to my list of guilty pleasures)

[Zookeeper]

21. Two of the Zookids have read The Thief Lord...

and really liked it. I read mostly non-fiction, so I haven't read a lot of YA books, but the ones I have read have impressed me. They were actually more thought provoking than most of the modern non-fiction I've read.

My oldest is almost sixteen and he tends towards adult thrillers, but just recently read Confessions of an Economic Hitman and loved it. He said, "Mom....I just don't think Capitalism will work." :spray:

My 11 year old just read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time by Mark Haddon, which is supposed to be a book for adults, I think, but seems like it's appropriate for teens as well. It really gave him an understanding of people with mild autism or Asperger's and he was able to relate the protagonist to several autistic kids he has gone to school with.

At the risk of making the understatement of the year, reading gives kids such a headstart on understanding the world.

:hi:

[Jets2Brazil]

22. I'm thrilled my 11 year old likes reading as much as he does...

He's got such a natural affinity for math, that for a while I was afraid he wouldn't take to reading at all. I tend (whether rightly or wrongly) to divide people into math-types or reading-types. Thankfully, he's much more well-rounded than the bookworm-but-failing-math archetype that I was at his age.

I've heard great things about The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time...that's been on my list for a while.

Also, I have to agree with your opinions of YA fiction. A lot of strange, subversive (in a good way) stuff is happening in kids' books. It seems to be in the same place that "genre" fiction (okay,...sci-fi) was in the 60s and 70s, in that it actually addresses what's going on in the world, while "proper" fiction contains an awful lot of navel-gazing nihilism. I think we're going through a renaissance in Kid's Lit right now, there's just so much more quality stuff available, and it's really written with the kind of enthusiasm that's lacking in a lot of mainstream fiction.

[Zookeeper]

24. "...navel-gazing nihilism."

Isn't that the truth! That's one of the reasons I read mostly non-fiction. As a teen, I read a lot of 19th Century literature and I think I was "spoiled" by that.

One of the appealing things about the best of the YA books, is that they aren't jaded and approach the world in an open and fresh way. I can find plenty of reasons to mope and despair on my own. And I think irony has run its course when the mainstream culture is so self-consciously campy.

[Jets2Brazil]

25. Definitely agree on the non-jaded comment...

The best YA books present a sort of positivity that's sorely lacking in other fiction. Not that I can stand false cheerfulness or sappiness (cynical bastard that I am).

I mean, I love a good downer as much as the next guy (I spent a large portion of my youth wearing eyeliner, listening to the Cure and reading Kafka and Camus) but I love the way that kids' books present moral quandaries and political differences as challenges to be attacked and solved rather than terrible things that just ARE.

Irony and cynicism are great. I'm a HUGE fan of irony and cynicism, but you need something to ground you every once in a while.

[Zookeeper]

27. I understand...

I've always been a big fan of irony and I do tend toward cynicism (which I now consider realism). And I've always been attracted to the shadows. But, I remember when irony wasn't the norm, and I when I see frat boys who think they have a "hip" sense of irony, I tend to think it's run its course. (Although I still love the Daily Show and such.) For example, I've noticed that I've been finding Graig Ferguson's non-ironic humor funnier lately than Conan O'Brien who has based his show, for years now, on irony. I don't like sappiness (I'm NOT sentimental), but I'm developing an appreciation for non-irony, if it's direct, honest and vulnerable. These days, that's much braver than being ironic.

And that's what I like about YA fiction, it doesn't have the defeatist, distant attitude of much of current popular culture. As a parent, I can't afford nihilism...I want solutions.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

7. It's not elitist.

Okay, I may be elitist in some ways, but it's definitely not due to my interest in Shakespeare. Let's just say, that my Shakespeare collection officially makes me an impressive geek for a college dropout.

Anyway, Shakespeare takes awhile to figure out. I worked for a large Shakespeare theatre company. We would spend the first week of rehearsal going line by line over the text and discussing it. It's not something that can just be picked up and immediately understood.

I also don't think that it can be fully appreciated from dumbed-down versions. If I don't understand something, I take out the Lexicon, not the Cliff Notes.

[bertha katzenengel]

13. "the Lexicon, not the Cliff Notes" -- hmm . . . isn't there a Bible verse

that says, "where two or more agree, that makes them elitist" -- ?? ;)

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. It's not elitist.

Okay, I may be elitist in some ways, but it's definitely not due to my interest in Shakespeare. Let's just say, that my Shakespeare collection officially makes me an impressive geek for a college dropout.

Anyway, Shakespeare takes awhile to figure out. I worked for a large Shakespeare theatre company. We would spend the first week of rehearsal going line by line over the text and discussing it. It's not something that can just be picked up and immediately understood.

I also don't think that it can be fully appreciated from dumbed-down versions. If I don't understand something, I take out the Lexicon, not the Cliff Notes.

[WCGreen]

10. The Folger Shakespeare Library catalouge

presented the plays in book form with the right page being the verse and the left page giving a synopsis of the scene as well as a translation of the slang words Shakespeare used...

It helped me to fully understand what was going on...

If you can read a synopsis of the play before viewing it, I would do so since you won't have to try to hard to follow the plot... You can sit back and let the language flow over you... That is how I learned to enjoy Will...

We were also lucky to have the Great Lakes Shakespeare fesitival in my hometown... They produced one comedy, one historical and one tragedy each summer... I must have seen 15 or so of the plays...

To me there is nothing more exciting in the theatre than watching good actors perform a Shakespeare Play...

BTW, Will in the World is a fantastic look at Shaekespeare and the times he lived in....

[bertha katzenengel]

14. I'm jealous.

Maybe someday I'll make it up to that festival.

:hi:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

17. Shakespeare Theatre of NJ is bigger and closer.

www.shakespearenj.org

[WCGreen]

23. They changed it.....

It's not nearly as good as it once was...

This is the one in Cleveland, not Canada...

They always drew in a really good broadway actor or two who wanted to get out fo New York....

It was really good....

[Zookeeper]

11. No.

I've known plenty of people from working or middle-class backgrounds (including myself) that have made an effort to become familiar with Shakespeare, simply because it's part of being culturally literate. Shakespeare didn't write his plays for the elite, and the only reason it seems that way now is because of the changes in the English language.

I was lucky enough to have a semester of Shakespeare in High School and loved his wit and understanding of people and life. Understanding his work just requires a little concentration, so does watching hours of sports and memorizing stats. I don't have enough free time to watch hours of sports, so maybe I could accuse sports fans of being elitists.

[SOteric]

16. I would say definitely not.

Elitism isn't about what you sincerely enjoy. It's more about what you disdain for being unworthy of your time and attention.

That one loves Shakespeare for the depth and complexity of the written word isn't elitist. The one might snub others for not sharing a taste for such depth and complexity, - that's elitist.

[sendero]

20. No way...

.. it is in no way elitest to be willing to extend the effort that is required to appreciate all of the great things that humanity has bestowed upon us.

Most people could understand Shakespeare if they were willing to give the effort. Let's not criticize them for that failure and we damn sure won't criticize you for being willing to invest some time and effort for huge rewards.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

26. Not elitist- say instead intelligent and refined.

And eff 'em if they try to make you smaller than them. You'll NEVER be that small. And THAT'S what makes them mad.

[Benfea]

28. You used the word "sonnet" in a sentence, ergo you are elitist.

I kid! I kid!