I'm bored. Ask me anything about medieval weaponry.

[BreweryYardRat]

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Your halberd does 1d12 damage.

T or F?

[BreweryYardRat]

2. *snort*

I'd prefer to leave D&D stuff out of this (semi-ex-player), but F. 1d10.

In reality, the back spike was good at punching through helmets.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. They look pretty schnazzy too.

Especially when you're out on patrol at the Wicked Witch's castle.

But were their any major battles where the halberd played a role?

[BreweryYardRat]

17. Plenty.

The Swiss were very fond of halberds, as were the various German city-states. During the 14th and 15th centuries, when the halberd was developed and refined, warfare was essentially a constant, so the weapon's efficiency made it popular.

A quick Google to help my shoddy memory turned up this example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morat

I've got to go to supper now-will get back to you.

[politicat]

3. Is that your work?

We have a forge in Indiana, but I am the grinder, not the smith.

14th century german?

[BreweryYardRat]

7. No, it's a piece I picked up from MRL.

They make much better polearms than swords. I may stick a different haft on it at some point; the one on there now is only poleaxe length, and narrows a little more at the head than I like.

[Evoman]

5. If medievel weapons were mass produced in modern times

and we all carried one (like the nobles did back then), which weapon would you recommend for the non-expert? A rapier? A short-sword? Maybe some sort of dagger?

[BreweryYardRat]

10. Quarterstaff for outdoor work, probably a coustel or axe for indoors.

There was an English fencing master, George Silver, who swore up and down that the quarterstaff was one of the best weapons out there, despite being humble and unassuming, simply because it's very intuitive and easy to use.

Plus it has a massive reach advantage if you follow his instructions when selecting your staff: "hold the staff upright close by your body, with your left hand, reaching with your right hand your staff as high as you can, and then allow to that length a space to set both your hands, when you come to fight, wherein you may conveniently strike, thrust, and ward, & that is the just length to be made according to your stature."

That generally comes to about 8 feet of wood (get hickory) in 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" diameter. Slap some steel caps on each end of the shaft if you want to be nasty.
***
Coustels/coustilles aren't something I'm an expert on. They're sort of a bastardized cross between a long knife and a short sword, originally carried by poorer soldiers and/or brigands.

Pics and other info are here:
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2535

A short horseman's axe like this one would also work nicely indoors.

[TimeChaser]

6. Ooh! Shiney~!

Actually, there's a club at school where we learn broadsword fighting.

[BreweryYardRat]

11. Any particular historical style?

I'm assuming English.

[TimeChaser]

16. Actually, most of our sources

are translated from German.

[BreweryYardRat]

19. We thinking of the same thing here?

By broadsword, I was assuming you meant the later English cut-and-thrust style.

If you're going with German sources, that sounds more like the longsword, as made popular by Lichtenauer, Talhoffer, and the other German masters. And Fiore, of course-mustn't forget the Italians.

[rug]

8. What's a helm?

[BreweryYardRat]

12. Synonym for helmet.

You're probably thinking of the Crusade-era great helm, but "helm" can apply to almost any sort of helmet style.

Great Helm:


Bascinet w/pig-face visor:


Sallet:

[Flaxbee]

20. Explain to me the pig-face visor, please

Any purpose aside from menace and perhaps being able to snout someone to death?

OK, it is all honestly quite fascinating, but so utterly horrifying -- as all weaponry is. Though this shiny stuff has no hidden menace (not like, say, a missle - just a big penis-shaped thing). All very blatant about its ability to cause horrible pain.

[politicat]

21. Cooler to wear.

The pig face is significantly cooler, because the wearer's breath isn't constantly being blown up in the wearer's face, and there's more airflow coming in.

Having worn one, I rate the pig face for comfort and the flat bascinet for ease in battle, and a pot helm for ease of construction.

[BreweryYardRat]

36. The pig snout also makes it slightly easier to glance blows off.

Although, since I'm assuming you're SCA, I'm not sure how well that works with rattan swords.

[politicat]

47. Former Adrian Empire, not SCA

We used real swords (blunted) not rattan.

And yes, I'd forgotten the differences in how the blows fall. I fought in Arizona and in the Colorado summer, so heat abatement was a lot more important to me than how the blows fell. (That, and we weren't supposed to do head-shots to begin with, but that's another issue.)

[Hand]

9. Mace or Morningstar for sheer nastiness? nt

[BreweryYardRat]

15. Mace.

Morningstar/Flail works okay, but there's the risk of the enemy tangling the chain with his weapon.

[LeftyMom]

13. If you were building a trebuchet

would you go with a swinging box or a fixed counterwieght, and why?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Ooo, good question.

[BreweryYardRat]

39. I've got to go to bed.

Get back to you tomorrow.

[AngryAmish]

52. Swinging box

The weight goes straight down and less energy lost to heat (decelerating the arm at the fulcrum). I think. Anyway the swing box was the more modern design. Plus you could take weight in and out to vary the shot and it is easier to find weight for the counterweight because it does not have to be attached to the arm (you just fill the box with local rocks as opposed to specially transported rock or iron that would be special made to attach to the arm.

[Xipe Totec]

18. What is a Murder Stroke?

And what part of which sword do you use?

[BreweryYardRat]

40. Going to bed.

Get back to you tomorrow.

[Xipe Totec]

42. That's OK, I was just trying to keep you entertained

You DID say you were bored, right?

[BreweryYardRat]

49. Thank you for enlightening me.

I was under the mustaken impression that the murder stroke was the one where you take a fast sideways cut at the side of the head, but now that I've been corrected, that's the krumphau, isn't i?

Also, are those plates from Lichtenauer's works? They don't quite look like the ones in Talhoffer's, and I know they're not from Fiore's.

[Xipe Totec]

51. It is Talhoffer - Translated by Marc Rector

Medieval Combat

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1853675822/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-2842302-0039851#reader-link


I like this particular move because of the unusual and creative use of the sword, first as a grappling hook, then as a battering ram.

:hi:

[Redstone]

22. Some of the kids at the high school in town made a trebuchet for their

Senior Project a couple of years ago.

It worked fairly well.

Redstone

[Aristus]

23. In period movies, you often see characters using a rapid-fire crossbow.

I've never seen a picture or drawing of one from real life, and honestly don't think they existed.

Did they?

[BreweryYardRat]

27. Nope.

They're an invention of Hollywood.

[Lisa]

53. the ancient Romans apparently had a "repeating ballista"

It automatically loaded (and I think, fired) a series of bolts, in rapid succession. I'm not sure exactly when in the Roman era it existed -- apparently there are more details in Marsden's Greek and Roman Artillery: Historical Development (which I haven't read yet so I don't have any further details). But the experimental archeologists seem to think it really was used -- not just a fanciful proposal, of the "here's how to solve our military problems" type found in Roman literature before the Western collapse.

In any case, I don't think that anybody's found any evidence that the technology survived into the Migration (let alone medieval) eras.

A group in Britain reconstructed one, which was featured in a BBC history series. It did appear to work, in the demonstration -- fired several bolts per minute, and was fairly accurate once it had been aimed properly. It was a pretty large weapon which required a stand -- not handheld (although the Romans did have smaller ballistae which could be used like a medieval-type crossbow).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/romans/tech_01.shtml

[LibertyLover]

76. The Chinese

developed a repeating crossbow. Not like the Hollywood version of course. My husband shoots a period crossbow (we are in the SCA - Kingdom of Atlantia) and during a timed 30 second shoot has gotten up to 7 bolts off. A friend of ours can get 8 off pretty consistently. They can't keep that speed up for very long of course. I used to shoot a recurve and was not particularly good, but in a 30 second timed shoot I could get 7 to 8 arrows. We know archers, shooting recurves or long bows, who in a 30 second timed shoot can get 14-16 arrows off. It's an awesome sight.

[everythingsxen]

24. Pa'don me Guvnah...

but in a related question to the "If weapons were mass produced today..." post above...

If medieval weapons were being mass produced today, what would they be made out of and why?

I also have a bronze age question, if you don't mind.

You know those helmets that (I think) Roman officers wore that had like a mohawk of fur or something?

Well who wore helmets like that except the "mohawk" is turned to the side. (So it would be running left/right instead of front/back) I have had several recurring dreams of wearing a helm like that. It is generally in connection with "Antioch"....

And an actual medieval question...

What advantages (if any) does a flamberge have over other swords in it's size range?

[BreweryYardRat]

32. The sideways mohawk sounds familiar too.

I can't think of what culture wore it right now (I want to say Phoenician or Macedonian, although the Macedonians were Iron Age), and I'm about to go to bed. Let me do some research and I'll get back to you tomorrow.

As for the other two:

Mass production: They're doing some pretty interesting things with steel nowadays, especially L6 very-high-carbon steel. Metallurgy is not my specialty, so again, let me do some digging.

Flamberge: While the wavy blade doesn't actually increase the injury from a cut (despite the myth), you can use a flamberge (along with some of the other largest zweihanders) as a sort of crude lever to wrench pikes out of formation, allowing other soldiers to exploit the gap. Additionally, there's a slight intimidation factor from the shape of the flamberge.

[everythingsxen]

35. Fair enough

:)

I didn't know that it was Bronze Age for sure, just the look of the helmet and that it relates somehow to Antioch. Could be Iron Age, could be Dark Age for all I know. :crazy:

[BreweryYardRat]

38. Like I said, I'll get back to you.

Question before I sack out? Are you SCA? Some of your commentary sounded like it.

[everythingsxen]

43. Nope

Never been in SCA; known plenty of people who were. I am a big fan of the "good old days" of war though. Plus I used to play D&D a lot.

[Lisa]

41. side-to-side crests ... Roman officers?

Okay, if it's Roman stuff, I will take the liberty of jumping into seawolf's thread. Traditionally, a crest that went from left to right, rather than front to back, was worn by the centurion. He would have been in command of 80 or so troops.



From the Ermine St. Guard website.
http://www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/On%20Campaign%20Images/pages/Campaignchargin2_jpg_jpg.htm


As far as the association with "Antioch" -- if it's the Eastern Mediterranean city you mean, it would have been in the province of Syria, during ancient Roman times. Roman legions tended to be stationed in the same area for a number of years (even decades or centuries). For example, Legio XII (the Twelfth) were there at the time of the Judean Revolt, in the 1st century. After they were transferred, Legio III (the Third) took over.

http://members.aol.com/FlJosephus2/romanArmy.htm


Here's a list of various Roman legions, with information about them.

http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/legions.htm

And this page is handy, for seeing which legions were posted where.

http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/legions-geo.html


This site is run by a friend of mine -- it has some nice pics of reconstructed armor, weapons, etc.

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/



As for ancient types of helmets -- I've found the books "Greece and Rome at War" (Peter Connolly) and "Warfare in the Classical World" (John Gibson Warry) to be very interesting, showing examples from all kinds of ancient civilizations which I hadn't known about. Maybe something might twig your memory?

[everythingsxen]

44. Very interesting..

Thanks, I will get reading.

[StellaBlue]

25. Have you been to the arms and armour museum in Leeds (UK)?

If you like medieval weaponry, you'll find it orgasmic. I went there for a job interview a few years ago. Their logo is taken from a jousting mask belonging to Henry VIII.

[BreweryYardRat]

30. American.

Not getting there any time soon, but when I do eventually make my way across the pond I'll be sure to visit.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

26. Chain mail: useful or a nuisance?

:evilgrin:

[everythingsxen]

28. I know it's seawolf's thread...

but I would say oh ye Gods yes it's useful. At least if you are doing melee combat. Less useful against archers...

but I leave seawolf to answer. :)

[BreweryYardRat]

29. A nuisance to make, useful to wear.

Won't stop a hard sword thrust, or a direct blow from an axe or mace, but it's proof against just about any glancing blow and almost all cuts. Multiple cuts to the same location or a really hard cut will get through.

Also, like sxen said, it doesn't stop arrows as well, since a bodkin arrow concentrates all its force on one spot, which increases the odds of penetration depending on how much force the arrow is impacting with. However, the gambeson (a thick, padded garment worn under mail shirts) will stop most arrows once they've spent their kinetic energy on the armor. The English longbowmen racked up so many casualties against French knights because a lot of their shots took out the knights' horses...and if a ton of horse collapses on you, armor's not going to keep you from getting broken bones that make you unable to fight.

[mdmc]

31. Have you ever seen that thing on the tv show Northern Exposure

What was that thing and have you ever seen one for real?

[BreweryYardRat]

33. Never seen Northen Exposure...

Can you give me a description of the "thing?"

[mdmc]

70. check out pokerfan's link -- ever seen one of those?

:kick:

[BreweryYardRat]

71. Not in the flesh, but yeah, I've seen them.

The pics in that link look to be missing the sling for the hurled stone.

[pokerfan]

48. That was a trebuchet "Chris" built on Northern Exposure

Here is a link to some pics:
http://www.eskimo.com/%7Everne/treb.htm

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. Age-old debate: the point, or the edge?

And why?

[BreweryYardRat]

37. Depends on the situation.

A thrust can certainly kill someone quickly, but a cut to the femoral artery, a cut to the artery in the shin, or a cut throat kills just as quickly. Cuts and thrusts can also cripple an enemy and let them bleed out slowly-the advantage is slightly to the cut there, though.

What the question really devolves to is: what sort of armor is the opponent wearing?

There's not a sword in the world that can cut plate, so a thrust to the joints in the armor is the only option there. If the opponent's wearing mail, odds are that that won't cover everything, and you can slice an artery, or take a good hard stab. Mail won't stop all cuts. It'll stop almost all of them, but a really hard cut or multiple cuts to the same location will get through. With boiled leather or some of the other cheaper armors, a hard cut will do the job.

Edit: My brain's fried...I forgot to mention that a thrust against plate has to be to the joints...or to the visor, if you're really, really good.

[Lisa]

45. is a Viking sword with a 25" blade within the range of possibility?

Okay, so it's more of a pre-medieval question, so you can pass on it if you like. I bought a Darksword Armory knockoff of the Del Tin "Ravens of Odin" sword a while back, and I noticed that they've mistakenly fitted a blade from a later era -- the fuller is rather narrow and ends well before the tip of the sword (plus the blade gets narrower near the tip than most of the Viking swords I've seen in the textbooks). So really it's more of an Oakeshott Type XII.

(Oakeshott classification, for those who haven't seen it yet)
http://www.algonet.se/~enda/oakeshott_eng.htm

Not that I have anything against this style of sword -- it's just that it looks a bit out of place with the Viking-type hilt components. I could replace the Viking fittings with some Norman or later ones (Albion Swords has some in its "moat sale"), but it would mean shelling out some more bucks. Instead, I was thinking of removing the last few inches of the tip, so the blade will look like an earlier sword type. But this would only leave me with about 25" of blade. My question: were there actual Viking swords this length, for adolescents or shorter adults (I'm only 5'2" so it wouldn't look too small in my hand).

[BreweryYardRat]

54. Probably not out of the question...

I don't think any shorter swords like you've described have been found, but it certainly seems like a reasonable possibility. And since the ones that existed were probably custom jobs, and therefore not too common, the odds are against finding any.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Sometimes the maxim works, sometimes it doesn't. In this case, it does.

[Lisa]

59. thanks! I tried drawing a shape for the new blade tip ...

... onto the sword with a Sharpie marker, and it looks okay. I dug around and found a couple of examples of excavated Viking swords with blades under 27" (one appeared to have been shortened, and the other was forged that way) -- both found in the tombs of teenagers. So maybe this'll work!

[BreweryYardRat]

60. That's interesting...

Were those sources online or in a book?

If they're online, I'd like to see them, please.

[Lisa]

75. here's one ...

I'm not too sure about the documentation for it -- and then there's the whole issue of whether one can extrapolate how frequently something was done, based on a single example (the use of the Roman Gallic "G" helm by modern re-enactors is another such situation). But here's the link. The note says "child" rather than teenager (and again there is no documentation about actual age, wealth, etc.).

http://www.accucom.net/medsword/vmuseum/vmm2.html


The "custom-made" sword, which appears to be a scaled-down version of an adult-sized sword (the proportions of the hilt, blade width, taper, fuller, etc.) is another grave find, which was offered for sale a while back, by a European dealer. I don't have the info with me at work right now, but will try to get you the particulars later.



p.s. I took a hacksaw to my sword -- it's going to take me awhile to grind the new tip down to a decent taper, but by the time I'm done, it's going to look less clunky than the one in the photo! The balance doesn't seem to have been affected much. Then again, the Darksword blades do tend to be a bit heavier than, say, Albion's, so minor weight differences might not be as evident (as they would be for a real sword!).

[Lisa]

78. update ...

Apparently the cut-down sword is documented in Ian Pierce's "Swords of the Viking Age" -- it was found in a boy's grave in Oppland, Norway, sometime in the late 1800s.

As for the custom-made one ... it was offered on eBay last year (May 18 2005), by "yorky19", a British dealer who has auctioned off other Viking swords. The item number was 6533697612. The sword was dated to 850-950 AD, and is of the Peterson M type, about 23.5" overall, with a 19" blade (so, longer than the cut-down sword). It did have much better proportions, and the pommel was a slender "Indian canoe" type, longer than the guard. Since the auction has long since ended, I'm afraid that's the most information I can offer (though I suppose you could try contacting the dealer for more details?). I did not have online access at home, at the time, so the best I could do was to print off some photos of the sword for my "interesting artifacts to follow up sometime" file. PM me if you would like me to send you hardcopies via regular post.

[Dangerously Amused]

46. Did knights have to remove their armor to go potty?

And how come you didn't see more guys in battle trying to take out their opponent's horses first? Like was there an unwritten code against going after the horses? Or is that just Hollywood again, because people would get too upset seeing the horses killed and/or it would be too much of a PITA to train all the horses to fall down and "die" for the camera?


Thanks.


:hi:

[BreweryYardRat]

50. Heh.

I think the prevailing idea was "shit before you fight," but nobody would've mocked some poor bastard who shat himself on the field. Foot soldiers on guard duty would have either hiked up a mail shirt and their arming clothes, or in later periods, taken their breastplates off, assuming they were lucky enough to own/be given one.

The "no killing horses" thing is Hollywood through and through. Historically, horses were considered an excellent target, because a horse is much easier to kill than the armored knight on its back. Once the horse is down, that either a: brings the knight down to your level, if you're on foot, and quite possibly pins him under the body of the horse as it falls or b: if you were both mounted initially, lets you wheel around for another pass where you have the height, reach, and momentum advantage.

[atomic-fly]

55. Did they use large chicken talons for anything?

[BreweryYardRat]

57. Har-de-har-har.

[joneschick]

56. caltrops. For or against?

discuss

[BreweryYardRat]

58. Hmm?

For or against in what manner? Historical veracity (yes), use in battle, what?

[joneschick]

67. just a goofy question because I knew the word.

[BreweryYardRat]

69. Heh. In that case, for.

[blm]

61. Would you say Cleveland Museum of Art has the best collection in the US?

.

[BreweryYardRat]

63. Haven't been there.

Ask me again if I ever get there.

[blm]

64. If it's a passion for you then definitely get there. You can also go to

Rock n Roll Hall of Fame while you're in Cleveland.

[BreweryYardRat]

66. Thanks for the tip.

[leftofthedial]

62. what's the difference between a mace and a flail?

:shrug:

[BreweryYardRat]

65. Minor.

The flail's got a chain attaching the head to the shaft, while the mace is one piece (or, rarely, on a wooden handle). The chain adds a little momentum to swings, as well, but makes it slightly easier to . Also, I don't think there were many (if any) two-handed maces out there, while two-handed flails were reasonably popular with infantrymen.

See the difference in these single-handed examples?
Mace:
Flail:

[leftofthedial]

68. thanks! I think I'll use the flail.

now where's that cat . . .

[flvegan]

72. What of the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch?

Wait, is that even medieval?

[pokerfan]

73. Your opinion of the final sword fight in Rob Roy (1995)

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=774bd8f36ba687442c96e7fd8ab7748e&threadid=52303&goto=nextnewest

The fights were directed by William Hobbs:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0435086804/104-7115901-3499918?v=glance&n=283155

[EstimatedProphet]

74. Is a morningstar a mace ball on a short chain or a club with spikes?

I say mace on chain, but some people define it as the spiked club.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

77. A morningstar is the type of head.

Look at the "mace vs. flail" post above this one. There's the "flanged" head on the mace. And the "morningstar" head on the flail. A morningstar is a ball with spikes, while "flanged" means it's got, well, flanges.