What would you do if the passion was dead in your marriage?

[Taverner]

And there was no conceivable way to bring it back?

[bettyellen]

1. i 'd have the patience to let her hoo-ha heal after childbirth......

and in the meantime, i'd kick myself.

[redwitch]

2. LOL!

good points!

[XemaSab]

5. word.

[Misunderestimator]

10. Ain't that the truth!

[Taverner]

14. It's not that simple, I'm afraid

The passion has been dead for a long time. For years really. She was the first to lose it, then when she tried to recreate it it had been dead so long in me it just couldn't be brought back to life.

Why did we have kids then? Well one of the few joys we have as a couple is being parents. We may be shitty lovers, but we're excellent parents.

[SoCalDem]

50. Peaks & valleys..

before anyone bolts, get counselling..and think about this..

Would your life be better without her..or just different..

different is not always better, and once you exit a marriage the children are always hurt, no matter how friendly the split is.

People who say marriage is 50-50, are just plain wrong,.sometimes it's 90-10..and then other times it's 10-90

If you don;t hate each other, and there's no violence or infidelity..give it a chance..and start small.. It didn't change overnight, and it won't change back overnight either..

yesterday was our 36th anniversary, and not all of them were prize-winning years, but once the kids are grown and gone, it's kind of nice to have a lifelong friend/companion/buddy/pal/husband etc..

As much fun as the young years were, you can never re-create them again..

Hang in there

[LostinVA]

59. Peaks and valleys aren't the same as a long-term absence

You should ALWAYS try EVERYTHING you can before you call it quits.

But, sometimes you just have accept things and salvage what you can.

[SoCalDem]

72. Salvage yards just have big piles of cast-off stuff

..
Casting off children because you don't get all tingly over your spouse is kind of selfish .. and "the absence of lust" has been used FOREVER, as a "reason" to look for sex elsewhere.. Once that happens, it really IS over...Women with a toddler and a newborn are not quick to forgive a straying husband.. They might begin to wonder if the "lust" that created two children in short order, might have been a trick to tie HER down for life, and yet excuse HIM for sleeping around.

Playing with fire is always dangerous, even if the house doesn't burn down the first time..

[bleedingheart]

66. you are very wise

it is all about peaks and valleys...

[JuniperLea]

68. That's why the vow...

for better or worse...


you have to go with the flow and not be too surprised when you look at your wife one day and just want to do her... and she wants that too...


perhaps you should be having this convo with her and not in public? how would she feel about this? are you empathetic to her feelings?

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. ......

and

[DS1]

38. .

[Redstone]

41. Ah, betty, you always get right to the heart of the matter, don't you?

Great insight on your part.

Redstone

[bleedingheart]

65. ROFLMAO

that was good...

[Name removed]

3. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaraMN]

4. Depends upon what else besides "the passion" existed in the relationship,

what there was to begin with, and what obligations we shared.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. What do you mean by passion?

Just sex? Romance? What? And how old are these individuals?

[bigwillq]

7. I would go my separate way then.

No conceivable way to bring it back? Then it's best for two people to move on and cut their losses.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. passion ebbs and flows....

but if its gone for too long i would stray. i know and accept this about myself.

[SeattleGirl]

9. How important is passion to each individual person?

And I'm not just talking about physical passion, though for me, that's mighty important. But so is passion for other things, things you do together, interests you share, etc.

Is it so important that you (or whomever) decides they just don't want to do without it? If it is, then serious consideration must be given to getting out. If you (or whomever) decides that it's not that important, and other things in the marriage are good, then you (or whomever) my just decide to accept the lack of passion, and make the most and the best of the good things that are there.

[hfojvt]

20. that seems to cover the bases

[hippywife]

11. I would continue to

cherish the love and the things we still share with each other...the laughs, the intelligent conversations, the committment to working for change in the world. There are so many more things that make up a marriage. Those things are the foundation. The passion is just the icing on the cake, not the whole thing.

[Shine]

12. I would do EVERYthing in my power to resurrect it.

via counseling or whatever.

IMO, the brain is the biggest sex organ of all and in this type of situation, it's important to be MINDFUL of one's limiting beliefs and how they can impact what one thinks is possible.

"Passion" ebbs and flows....just like our lives.

Change is the only constant there is.

[WCGreen]

13. Can you love somebody and still not be attracted to them

in a passionate way....

That's the real question here.....

And how important is that passion....

And was it passion and not love that brought you together.....

[LostinVA]

15. From experience: yes, you can.... BUT

That is best friendship, not a marriage. We stayed ina dying relationship too long, because "That's just the icing on the cake." Come on, that isn't true. It's very much a part of the relationship, it all ties together. And no, I don't mean only sex. We became bitter and angry and hurt -- and it almost destroyed us. Luckily, we were sane enough to say we loved one another, and always would, but we had to change the status of our relationship -- not to do so wouldn't be fair to ANYONE.

We';re still best-est friends, and are very much in each other's lives. But not as partners.

Sometimes the adult thing is to know when to capitulate, and to salvage the love and affection you have in some other, often just as wonderful, form.

It's tough. I've been there (sans the baby). It does get better. PM if you want to talk.

[SeattleGirl]

19. Well put, LiV

I'm glad to hear you and your ex are still such good friends. That's not always easy to do, but you obviously still care about each other very much, and in the long run, did what was best.

[LostinVA]

22. It was hard... and, if we had "soldiered on,: it wouldn't have ended

like that -- I suspect we would have hated one another.

Geez... sometimes we even go on vacation together. Some people think it's weird, but it works for us.

[SeattleGirl]

24. Well, I'll tell you

I'm looking at doing the same thing myself. I just hope it comes out as well as your's did.

And I don't think it's weird at all that you go on vacation together. I don't think hate is a necessary side effect of divorce, especially if you really care about each other. I say, good for the two of you! My youngest brother and my youngest brother in law work for my ex in his cabinet and furniture shop. My ex is closer to those two guys than he is to his own two brothers. My ex called the night his mom died from cancer, because he knew I loved her so much. I visited my ex father in law and his wife on Mothers Day this past May, and had just a wonderful visit with them. My daughter's sister has stayed here with us on her way through town, and I got to see her at Christmas time when she was staying with my daughter. And my ex would help me out if ever I were in real trouble, and would not bat an eyelash. There was initially a lot of anger between us at the time of the divorce, but we got past it, and while he's not my best friend, I do consider him a good friend. And if people think that's weird, well, that's their problem, not mine.

[u4ic]

40. You just described my last relationship EXACTLY

[LostinVA]

53. Glad to know I'm not the only one!

[khashka]

27. You know the answer to this question, Chris

I know much more about you than you might think I do - and I know you know the answer.

Passion is fleeting. Wonderful but ephemeral. Love is abiding - not nearly as exciting but it lasts....


Now can we convince Taverner of that truth?


Khash.

[WCGreen]

29. You are correct.....

You have to divorce the sex from the love...

If that is the case...

Take the severely handicapped....

Sexual relations don't always mean you are in love just as love doesn't always mean you are sexually attracted to one another...

[khashka]

33. Oh baby, baby don't go there!

The severely handicapped?

I know you have some serious health issues of your own. As do I - and I often think because of that no one could possibly want me.

But I dated a VietNam Vet. Paralized and in a wheelchair - the things that man taught me about sex? I could write a book. If I am in any way a good lover I owe it all to him.

On the other hand, you are right. Sex and love are not the same.. And a real relationship cannot be based on sex alone....


Khash.

[WCGreen]

34. It's not about me....

It's about others who are more disabled than I....

[RebelOne]

16. Been there, done that, got a divorce.

[BlueIris]

56. Sometimes, it is the only way.

Doesn't mean anyone "gave up," "quit," "copped out," "abandoned the commitment and/or spouse," or otherwise "failed." Shit happens. Passion dies. Moving on from a passionless relationship can be (usually is?) a beautiful, self-respecting, positive choice that provides the best possible solution to a difficult problem.

If I were absolutely sure the passion was GONE, I would be as well. Rejection sucks. Frustration sucks. And while I'm an avid self-satisfier who has never viewed a partner as someone obligated to sexually satisfy me--he should at least WANT to at least 50% of the time for a relationship to be worthwhile. If that desire existed 0% of the time? Egh. Divorce. Easy call.

[LostinVA]

60. Exactly -- great post

[LostinVA]

17. Been there -- please read post #34

[CanuckAmok]

18. Well, for one thing, I'd sue the Russian Postal Service.

Beyond that, I don't know. I was never given an option.

[khashka]

23. No conceivable way to bring it back?

Why not?

Go read the recent NatGeo issue on love.

Physical passion lasts about four years before it disappears (for various bioloigical reasons). If your bond to another person is based on more than that then you can manage through the not so great times and rediscover passion. See new things in your loved one. Rekindle the desire.

Ok, I'm in a minority here. But I truly believe people in love should not live together. If through financial constraints or because they are both raising kids, they should try to have separate bedrooms. Passion is really built on illusion - that goddess that you once worshipped is all too human if you step out of the shower and see her shaving her armpits. Just an ordinary woman. Now you can discover what a wonder "just an ordinary woman" can be. If you try.

If you were just speaking generically - the above advice applies.

If you mean yourself, Tav. Her having just given birth might be part of it. I don't know how long into her pregnancy you two made love. Many men start to feel uncomfortable with it after a certain point. So do many women. So you might be feeling rejected. And now the new baby is here - well, everything should be back to normal, right? Wrong! Her first focus is gonna be on the baby - meaning you get left out in the rain.


Well, you've been through this before with TavernerToddler. So you know. You just might be going through the Daddy Doldrums.

So give it time A life long relationship is not built on passion. Passion waxes and wanes and waxes again. And wanes again.

Khash.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

26. Khash.....

Just got your message....Call.....

[NNadir]

28. I couldn't imagine better advice.

Well said.

Applause.

[khashka]

30. I am good, ain't I?

Khash bows to thunderous applause!

Yeah, right!

Thanks NNadir, I appreciate it. But all I ever say is the obvious. One day though, one day, I swear I will say something wise and helpful. Until then..... I can but try.

Khash.

[Left Is Write]

25. I'd wait until the newborn wasn't a newborn anymore...

Seriously, pregnancy and childbirth take a lot out of a woman. Hormones are all over the place. Hormone levels drop dramatically after birth, and she's often tired and out of sorts, and dealing with post-birth emotions. Breastfeeding can adversely affect libido.

I'd give it some time before I decided there was no passion in my marriage.

[grace0418]

31. Don't give up too easily! Passion CAN be regained.

Maybe not the same way it was before, but what it loses in "newness" can be made up for in depth and richness. I thought my marriage was dead a few years ago. But it turns out we needed to work on some things with each other and with ourselves. It was amazing how quickly we remembered what it was that brought us together once we started working through stuff. Our marriage is by no means perfect, but it's sooooooooo much better than it was.

You have two little ones. I'm not going to recommend staying together just for the kids (that can do more harm than good if the situation gets really toxic). But I do think you owe it to them to try to change the course. You may not see any conceivable way of regaining passion but look back on your life. Think of all the times when you were 100% sure you felt one way or another. It's a rare person who never changes their mind, even things they are "100% sure" about. So you may not see a way back right this minute, but give it a chance.

Can you get some therapy, alone or together?

In any case, good luck. All may not be lost just because it seems that way right now.

[LeftyMom]

32. I waited until the kid was older and the time was right

and then we split up. It was that or be miserable.

[UrbScotty]

35. Declare the sanctity of our marriage dead (nt)

[swag]

36. Get a vasectomy and take up Yahtzee.

[politicat]

37. You have a toddler and a newborn....

Ask yourself these questions: When was the last time you both got a full 8.5 hours of sleep for more than 2 nights running? When was the last time you dropped everything and did the wild thing on the kitchen floor and didn't worry about TTod coming in wanting a cookie? When was the last time that was even possible - before TTod started to crawl, right?

Hormonally, the mystery ends after about 4 years (a year to get preggers, a year of pregnancy, and two years of breastfeeding when you look at the evolutionary time scale) but lives are built on a shitload more than hormones.

Recover from the new baby. Let her get to about 6 months old, then find a sitter that is happy to take your money for a weekend and get away. Do this as often as possible. Even better, do this separately. Take time to be individuals, not parents. Make your night out Wednesdays, and your wife gets Thursdays or whatever - and on those nights, go out, away from kids and spouse, even if it's just to go to the library and sit in the quiet without someone demanding a clean diaper, a snack or a drink every twenty-five seconds.

Someone upthread mentioned sleeping separately. This might be a good idea, if just so each of you can have your own space where you don't have to worry about pissing the other off. At least make small private spaces somewhere in your house where no one else is allowed in (even if they're just 3x5 cubicles you cut out of another room and curtain off).

The love isn't dead, and the passion is bloody frickin' tired. Get some sleep, get some space, and see each other as people, not parents. Try to read these books: "Everything You Know About Love and Sex Is Wrong" and "Love Between Equals : How Peer Marriage Really Works" by Pepper Schwartz and "Should I Stay Or Go? : How Controlled Separation (CS) Cas Save Your Marriage" by Lee Raffel. All three should make you think about what your marriage is like.

[crispini]

43. The OP has a toddler AND a newborn

and he's expecting passion?

[hippywife]

49. I thought his post was being serious

and responded that way. At least I hope we was being facetious given what I know now are the circumstances.

He deserves a good-natured

I wish men could give birth!!
Then we'd really have some gender equity in this world, eh?

[LostinVA]

54. I think some on this thread are confusing passion and sex

Not necessarily the same thing. I think you can have great passion, and no sex, and vice versa. Marriage without passion is friendship. My parents still have great passion for one another after 43 years. Does it ebb and flow? Yeah -- but it doesn't go away and stay away.

[crispini]

70. Yeah, but with two small children in the house

I think you have to expect that 90% of the energy is going to go towards raising them, not the couple. Should they make time? Yes, of course. But it takes two.

[bertha katzenengel]

39. I would stay married. That's what VOWS are.

There's more to life than passion.

I am committed.



Edited my subject title, which originally read "Stay married. That's what VOWS are." -- so that it didn't sound like a command. Even though it was a direct answer to the question posed in the thread's title. This disclaimer brought to you by too much time spent around lawyers.

[Katherine Brengle]

47. I agree--I don't think a loss of passion is a good reason to give up a

mariage, especially when there are children, and most especially young children, present in the relationship.

Of course, if there is more than passion missing, this may be a bigger problem.

In the end, marriages are built upon mutual respect, friendship, and a commitment from both parties to stick together through thick and thin, until the end.

The only things I consider good reasons for divorce are the loss of respect (through the actions of one or both parties), infidelity, abuse. That about does it.

It sounds like the OP's wife has been through a lot--two very young children, one a newborn--it takes a long time to heal from pregnancy and childbirth, and to have two pregnancies and two births close together is that much more difficult to heal from. As a mother, and a happily married woman, I know that it took me months after my daughter was born to even begin to feel remotely "normal" again, and it took until recently (our daughter will be 2 in April) for me to get back to my pre-pregnancy weight and start feeling really good about myself and my body again.

Hormonal changes during pregnancy do not belong to women alone--fathers experience hormonal fluctuations right alongside their partners, and this may be what the OP is experiencing, or has been experiencing since the last child was born.

Or maybe the passion really is gone. (To the OP)-- Do you still love your wife? Do you consider her your best friend and confidant? Do you respect her and the relationship the two of you have built? If so, then there are many more reasons to hold on to your marriage and make all efforts to revive it than there are to give it up.

And, as much as children should never be used as bargaining chips, won't you, your wife, and your children all be better of with a strong, committed family environment?

Good luck, I hope you find some answers, and best wishes to you and your new addition!

[LostinVA]

55. You should never stay together for the kids

Study after study has shown that. And, personal experience has, too.

[Katherine Brengle]

57. I agree with that--

but I don't think it is unreasonable to mention grouped with all of the other reasons that I pointed out. If everything else is still there, then I don't think it is right to break apart your family.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. Actually some newer studies refute that.

That it is possible to stay together for the kids and have the kids fare pretty well if the relationship is not one of violence.

That being said, I don't know anyone who has tried it.

[LostinVA]

61. I actually just read a study last week that said the opposite

in an educational journal! It even said that staying together for ADULT kids is also harmful to the "children."

I'll try to remmeber what journal it was in.

[Midlodemocrat]

63. I think it depends what journal you are reading.

Some of the psych journals are stating that the stress incurred by children of divorce isn't an issue if the marriage has just run out of steam, so to speak. Obviously this is not the case when there is a lot of fighting, anger, etc., going on.

[Ellen Forradalom]

42. Limp along

for the sake the child because everyone thinks you should.

[fortyfeetunder]

44. I can understand, but be patient.

I agree with other posters, your wife just had a cute little baby. Even though it's ancient history, I recall how I was feeling after childbirth...and I think y'all have to just be kind and passionate for now until you're both ready to light each other's fire.

[LostinVA]

62. But, per his posts, it WAY predates the baby

[samplegirl]

I'd buy

a sportscar!

[samplegirl]

45. I'd buy

a sportscar!

[madrchsod]

46. e harmony .com!

there`s a solution for everything on the net!

[HughBeaumont]

67. Too bad it's for fundies (edited because of no direct link)

Thank you for accepting my findings as your answer.

Although eHarmony does not seem to be officially linked to any
Christian group, the site's founder, Neil Clark Warren, has appeared
on several evangelical Christian television programs, and Warren has
had books published by Focus on the Family's publishing house. While I
don't consider Focus on the Family to be a cult, the group is
certainly a prominent proponent of "Christian values," mainly as
interpreted by media minister James Dobson.

I've reposted the link from my comment, plus some extra material.

AlterNet Love Machines
http://www.alternet.org/story/21291 /

Daily Kos: eHarmony and Focus on the Family
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/5/145919/2183

Regarding the relationship between eHarmony and Focus on the Family, I
found this on eHarmony's own website:

"Warren said eHarmony struggled in the beginning until the evangelical
Christian leader James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, gave
the company its big boost by hosting Warren on his national radio
broadcast. Warren describes Dobson as eHarmony's biggest supporter,
and the appearance on the show reaped 100,000 subscribers, he said.

Warren, who is open about his Christian faith, said the support of
Focus on the Family the organization also published his best-selling
book, 'Finding the Love of Your Life' has led some critics to think
eHarmony only matches Christians."

eHarmony: Searching for a love connection
http://www.eharmony.com/core/eharmony?cmd=community-sea...

[obxhead]

48. There is never an inconceivable way....

only a loss of hope and a lack of effort (yeah, I know it's a 2 way street)

[In_The_Wind]

51. Become friends.

[LostinVA]

64. Yup

[Burma Jones]

52. Broaden the Definition of Passion

It also helps if you wait until you're 30 or so to get committed. As I told my Mom as she fretted about the fact that I was unmarried and unattached at age 30 - "Mom, I'm just skipping my First Marriage"

[GoddessOfGuinness]

71. Excellent suggestion!

It's amazing how many passions can fit into one marriage.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

69. Look back to the days before the passion faded

What did you enjoy doing together (aside from sex) that you no longer do? Hiking in the woods? Cooking a gourmet meal together and getting slightly drunk tasting the wine while cooking? Seeing a movie or play and discussing it afterwards? Traveling to new parts of the country or world? Painting the living room together?

Think of how you acted in the early years of your relationship. I bet you touched each other a lot, exchanged mischievous smiles across rooms, had private jokes, you know the drill.

Try doing some of that now. One thing I learned in acting classes many years ago is that going through the motions can evoke the emotions.

I think you've fallen into the trap that I see a lot of couples falling into, relating to each other exclusively as the parents of the same children. I have a relative who is no fun to talk to, because whenever I ask how things are going, the answer is always, "You know, we go to work and we come home and take care of the kids."

[leftofthedial]

73. apparently, I'd hang on for another ten years

as the relationship deteriorated through acrimony, accusations, the destruction of trust and respect and right into simmering disgust with one another

until finally, weary of the soul-sucking boredom with one another and utter loss of personal dignity, I'd agree to a divorce.

Apparently.

[Nikia]

74. Become passionate about something else?

Besides all the other ideas expressed in this thread, take up a new or lapsed hobby. Encourage your wife to do the same. You will become more interesting people and will not rely on each other so much for your entire emotional fullfillment.

[Spider Jerusalem]

75. I'd stray from my marriage bed.

If the relationship had grown stale, joyless and unfulfilling, I'd seek that fulfilment elsewhere eventually. Of course, this is just me...a lot of people find themselves in the same situation and soldier of bravely (or foolishly, depending on one's point of view), slogging on through tedious years out of a sense of duty and obligation ('for the sake of the children', don't you know). Of course, the problem with that is that eventually, it can breed resentment and even loathing, as 'duty' becomes first a burden and then an intolerable weight.

I suppose you really have to ask yourself if the lack of fulfilment in any area of your marriage (apart from your children) is something that outweighs whatever sense of obligation you feel.