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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:55 AM
Original message
Armageddon by Tim LaHaye
I saw that book on the shelf at Wal-Mart and bought it yesterday. I also bought Moore's book. But I am doing Armageddon first. For some reason I am really getting into the Left Behind series. This is the last book in the series, but I guess that work my way from the end.

Anyone else read this book?
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Sting Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes!
Read all of them up to this point...can't wait til the new one comes out next spring. The way LaHaye/Jenkins portrayed the end of the world is exactly how I pictured it. Great read, I highly recommend. :thumbsup:
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Okay
I will have to work my way from the beginning.
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Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. Not me but...
My ex is more liberal than I am, and she loves them.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. I skimmed it - It's a tool to promote Fundamentalism
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 11:06 AM by Tinoire
It's utter bunk that doesn't have a theological leg to stand on.

Same with the entire Left Behind series. The politics of those 2 books is frightening. The fundie craze you're witnessing where millions are being subjugated with these false beliefs was a long time in the planning and these books are a part of that indoctrination.

I'll see if I can find some info for you but don't get sucked in. They teach certain things that are anathema to mainstream doctrine.

This Rapture stuff is total bunk. There is no pre-tribulation Rapture.
--------------------
These materials, about fictionalized end-times, popularize a common fundamentalist belief in a time of tribulation after the "rapture" (when the "good people" are secretly taken up overnight to Heaven) and before the Second Coming of Christ. This belief is not supported in Scripture.


Responding to similar fundamentalist agendas back in 1937, Pius XI, in "Divini Redemptoris" said any such speculations about a period when a remnant of the Church progresses towards its own ultimate victory might of themselves be a sign of the Antichrist:

The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism ...

The Catechism of the Catholic Church continues:
The kingdom will be fulfilled then, not by a historic triumph of the church through a progressive ascendancy, but only in God's victory over the final unleashing of evil ... (676-677)

The scenario in Left Behind, of a "tribulation force" of born-again former sinners who attempt personally to derail the progress of the Anti-Christ, is broadly classifiable as pre-millenarianism. The pseudo-historical backdrop for the story ties apocalyptic scripture to specific events in history, an error known as pre-millennial dispensationalism. In later books in the series, the new Pope is depicted as instrumental in establishing a relativistic world religion encouraged by the AntiChrist and operated from New Babylon (formerly Rome). The Left Behind series is anti-Catholic in content and form, consistent with Mr. LaHaye's other writings, in which he associates the Church with "Babylonian mysticism."

<snip>

http://www.sldmfishers.org/Left%20Behind%20-Bad%20Theol...



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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. The first couple were good
But the writing quality dropped and I lost interest.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
6. Series started out alright, but got progressively more right wing...
By about the 6th or 7th book it started to remind me of those Reagan era "militia nut fiction" stories (Mack Bolan, Able Team, etc) when you have your lead characters, supposedly redeemed Christians, fantasizing openly about blowing the Antichrist's brains out with some new high tech supergun. I mean, yeah, it's the Antichrist, the asshole of all assholes, but still, didn't these guys ever read the 10 commandments?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. Right-wing fundy propaganda
couched in the guise of a popular thriller.

Just consider the fact that the anti-Christ in the books is the head of the European Union, and then think how easy it was for the dittoheads to start hating the French...
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I thought he was head of the UN?
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 11:18 AM by Blue_Chill
And keep in mind that the Anti-christ would have to be in a position to unite all nations under him, so where else would you put him?

BTW - the guy wasn't french either and if anyone came out ugly in that book it was the russians who were defeated by god. Rightwingers simpley can not get over their Ruskie hatred.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. The Presidency of the United States
The reason I hate these types of books is because they are so typical. I wish just one would be daring.

How about the anti-Christ being a bible thumping President of the United States uniting the world in say "a fight against terrorism."

Why not challenge the retards for a change instead of always jerking them off.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Armageddon is the second to last book in the series
The last book will be called Glorious Appearing.

http://www.leftbehind.com/channelbooks.asp
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. Here's more - The Politics of Fear
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 11:23 AM by Tinoire
<snip>

In order to reach the conclusions found in the Left Behind series, one must, as Father Kenneth Ryan has written, "take a text here, a word there, and a guess or two at the meaning of other passages of Scripture to arrive at the scenario (of the Rapture)." When one considers a Scripture passage, one must resist the temptation to take the passage out of context, while disregarding the teachings of the Early Church Fathers and the Tradition of the Church. Those who believe in the Rapture, for example, use I Thessalonians 4:13-18 as an important primary text in support of their theory. This passage concludes, "And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

There was great expectation in the time of St. Paul for the Second Coming of Christ. The people of the Church in Thessalonica were worried about their loved ones who had died prior to this imminent return. Would they benefit from Christ's return as well?

We know St. Paul is addressing these concerns because he begins the above passage by stating, "But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep " (I Thess 4:13) Having returned the text to its original context, we now see that St. Paul is not insinuating a physical snatching of Christians while others are left behind.

Rather, he is comforting those who had loved ones who had already died. The Thessalonians must not be anxious for those who had died before Christ's Second Coming. To the contrary, St. Paul assures them that the dead will rise first, to be followed by those who are yet alive. The implication is that all people who accept him would find life in Christ: the dead or the living. And so, he concludes these thoughts by saying, "Therefore, comfort one another with these words."

<snip>

In the end, most of the fascination with the Rapture, the End Times or the Tribulation is caused by fear. People become afraid when they experience the world today: the violence, the loss of family structure, abortion, sexual abuse and the general disregard for morality.

By believing and promoting the wrath of God, Christians sometimes feel empowered to fight the chaos of a Godless world. Placing hope in the Rapture or the Tribulation is a way of regaining control.


<snip>

http://www.prowebsites.net/Catholic/Left_Cold.htm

==============

We have 50 million Christian Zionists in this country, utter fundies who will do whatever Pat Roberstson tells them is right.

Be very afraid of the insiduousness of the scriptural errors in this book because they're being used to create an Army of people terrified of going against what they are told is the Word of God...

You're much better of reading the Bible if you're looking for answers.




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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Your link seems suspect
It says that no Catholics are raptured but in the books I read the lone catholic leader that remians is a cardinal. The pope and the rest are taken away.

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Would you care to address the main message? Bad theology?
I'm sorry but I'm not even going to take the time to check that out, even though I have a feeling you're mis-reading something, because it's irrelevant to my point and not worth the time. Sorry
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Well the main point is irrelevant if you source didn't read the book
From your source
no practicing Catholics are chosen by Christ to be "raptured."

I don't think that is the case.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Nice red herring
notice this is irrelevant to my point about the theological mistakes in this fundamentalist book

notice the word "practicing"

and then note that I am not going to spend even 1 minute chasing this herring to find out just how practicing this person was to get into such a ridiculous discussion with you.

Once again, do you care to address the theological failings of this book? Or do you prefer to deflect from the main argument in the hopes that a small win over an insignificant point will fool people into thinking that this is a theologically sound book?

Are you wanting to promote this book or something?

For some bizarre reason I think the world would be better off if fundy warmongering Rapture freaks sealed their houses with plastic wrap and duct tape, stayed inside and turned on the gas. I guarantee they'll see Jesus soon enough without sieg heiling us all into Armegeddon.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Nice deflection of your sources weakness
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 02:55 PM by Blue_Chill
that being your source didn't read the book. This by the way is not a red herring, it is a very important point being that your opinion is meaningless if you do't know what it is you are talking about.

Once again, do you care to address the theological failings of this book?

Not exactly sure I see the failings you do. I see a work of fiction based on one possible interpretation of the end days described in the christian bible.

Or do you prefer to deflect from the main argument in the hopes that a small win over an insignificant point will fool people into thinking that this is a theologically sound book?

You source having read the book is not a "insignificant point". It's really pathetic that you try to brush this off as if I have a problem with the font your source selected.

For some bizarre reason I think the world would be better off if fundy warmongering Rapture freaks sealed their houses with plastic wrap and duct tape, stayed inside and turned on the gas. I guarantee they'll see Jesus soon enough without sieg heiling us all into Armegeddon

Perhaps you would like to feed them to lions? Maybe throw them in ovens? How about throwing them all in a big hole and covering it with dirt?

:eyes:

Are you wanting to promote this book or something?

Certainly not, they are a huge let down. They start off interesting enough but as you get to the 4th book the series slows down and the writing quality drops.




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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Whatever
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 04:57 PM by Tinoire
Let's just say your responses are no surprise.

Btw, the insignificant point is not 'did the source read the book or not' even though he read it closely enough to go into a deeper analysis than you seem capable of.

Your herring

of pretending he said no Catholics

vs what he really said which was

no practicing Catholics are chosen by Christ to be "raptured"

is laughable.



Your argument is a joke.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. You May Count Me, Ma'am
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 05:08 PM by The Magistrate
As a vote for well-fed lions....

"End Times" prophets, and their profits from the gullible, are a leading source of grim amusement to me. The means by which they extract their bilge from antique documents that are extraordinarily muddled are a standing tribute to the ingenuity of grifters as a class of humanity.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Catholics Raptured
Some fundys believe good Catholics will be raptured and some feel they will not. I suspect the website falls into the 'evil papist" school.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. That is my impression
TIME mag. had a synopsis a couple of years ago and it didn't sound like anything I wanted to read.

Plus my my brother likes them (enough said - IMO).
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
11. ick.
Whatever floats your boat, man, but I don't know why you'd do that to yourself. Like reading a 250-page Jack Chick tract.

:puke:
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Being curious to read it is alright but...
...GIVING MONEY TO THEM IS NOT, DAMMIT! GO GET IT AT A LIBRARY!
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Bingo. LaHaye is a seriously deranged fundy, same with Chick.
Oh, a Right Wing Fundy, one that could read "A Handmaid's Tale" and think it's a Romantic Comedy.

I honestly can't believe that so many DU'ers have read, even liked, this tripe :shrug:
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. It sounds interesting
nt
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
17. Left Behind: Prophecy or Fantasy? More Politics of Fear
The whole purpose of this thing is get people cowed into accepting whatever Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell say and into helping those Beasts bring about Armeggedon (have you any doubt this is what they're doing?) with the reassurance that when it all blows up, they will be whisked away to safety leaving the rest of us to deal with the aftermath.

Very, very dangerous books that work on people's subconsciences for political ends


Left Behind: Prophecy or Fantasy?
by Peter Chattaway

The Left Behind craze is reshaping mainstream beliefs about end times. But whats the message


<snip>

But the Left Behind craze is just the latest incursion of an evangelical end-times subculture that has simmered beneath the surface of mainstream pop culture for at least three decades.
Although the books will provide millions of non-Christians a close encounter with evangelical faith, they are based on beliefs about the end of the world that are of fairly recent origin and are widely disputed even among conservative Christians.

<snip>

The problem is, whose version of Christianity?

The end-times scenario of Left Behind has drawn divergent reactions from Christians. Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians and United Methodists generally think Jesus will return and judge everyone immediately, then reign forever. Leaders in these denominations argue that the notion of nonbelievers left behind for seven years is wrong, a misreading of the Book of Revelation, which is a difficult, symbolic text. "Certain Presbyterian churches have had seminars to debunk it," says Dan Balow, marketing director of Tyndale. "Then some Baptists and conservative evangelicals go in the opposite direction. They embrace it and dont treat it like the fiction it is."
Belief in the rapture is so pervasive among evangelicals -- who pride themselves in their literal interpretation of the Bible -- that many dont realize it is a relatively recent doctrine with little basis in the scriptures.

Most articles on the Left Behind series have said it is based on the Book of Revelation, but that is only partly true. The worldview reflected in these books and films can be traced back to the teachings of John Nelson Darby, a former Anglo-Irish priest who founded the Plymouth Brethren sect in the 19th century and whose views were popularized on this continent by the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909.

<snip>

Like a number of Christians, Darby was a premillennialist -- that is, he believed the world would have to endure seven years of great suffering before Jesus could return and reign over the earth in person during the Millennium. However, it was Darby who introduced the rapture -- based on the prediction in I Thessalonians 4:17 that believers will meet the Lord in the air. Before the seven years of suffering could begin, Darby believed Jesus would scoop up all the true believers and take them to heaven, so that they could avoid the horrors of the Antichrists reign.

<snip>

Instead of saving the world, some evangelicals began to get involved in activities that would bring the world closer to its end. Dispensationalists believed that the Jews would return to Israel before Jesus returned, and some of them campaigned on behalf of the Zionist movement. In 1948, their efforts were successful, and the modern state of Israel was created. For many evangelicals, the end of the world was now just around the corner.

<snip>

http://www.catholic.net/beauty_and_truth/template_artic...


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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
18. It was recommended by a right-winger . . .
dental hygienist friend of mine who whined the whole time Clinton was in office. Due to the recommendation, it's not high on my reading list, but it is always a good idea to know what the other side is reading.
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RogueTrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. They are evil books
be carefull.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Should we burn them?
hmm?
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yes, I saw a clear call
to burn them. :eyes:
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
27. As a big flammin' homo and practicing non-christian
I refuse to read those books, as I'm sure LeHaye would classify me not only among the 'sinners' who were left behind, but probably among the active supporters of the anti-christ. :shrug:

Read them if you like, but I would suggest reading critically because there is a ton of RW christian propaganda throughout the texts.

One final note on "the rapture." I believe we all make our own reality. I find it deeply worrying that so many people are invested in the end of the world. If it's all going to end anyway, why worry about pollution, over-population or global poverty. Jesus is all going to come sort it out anyway, right?

LeftCoast

PS: Wonder where LeHaye spends all the money he's making on this series? How much you wanna bet it's going to causes that we all would find highly objectionable?
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Sting Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I wouldn't go that far...
Sure, there's Christian "propaganda," but I don't think it's all RW related. I'm a Christian, and a hardcore liberal, and I actually think those books were written very well, w/o biasness towards one political party.

Sure, the end of the world will come, but if you're a Christian, you don't know when Christ will return. It could be 2 years from now, 20 years from now, heck, even 2 million years from now. That's why we need to worry about all those problems you pointed out. We just don't know when it will happen.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
30. Why are you giving the Religious Right money?
This goes straight into Republican coffers.
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Sting Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. How do we know the authors..
are even RWers?
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Tim+LaHaye%22+%22Right+Wing%22
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Sting Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Well...
that's no good. I've been giving money to the RWers. Oh well. The books were worth it. I enjoyed them.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. Tinoire's correct about the crap theology behind the series
Dispensational premillenialism was concocted by Scofield (as in, the Scofield Reference Bible) in the 1800s. It has never been, nor is it today, the accepted orthodox position of the vast majority of Christians. It is typically a fundy position which gained popularity in the 1970s with the publication of Hal Lindsey's book, The Late, Great Planet Earth. Lindsey posited, inter alia, that the symbols of the Book of Revelation (NOT "Revelations"!!! pet peeve mode off) such as scorpions were actually literal things like Vietnam-era military helicopters. The basic outline is that there is the Rapture, followed by seven years of tribulation, followed by the Second Coming of Christ which initiates the 1,000 reign of Christ ON EARTH. Somewhere in there, you've got to figure in a number of judgments, etc. (e.g., the Lake of Fire judgment, the Sheep/Goats judgment, etc.). It's a rather tortured attempt to harmonize Revelation with some of the O.T. prophets (Daniel is a favorite of the fundies).

I'm amazed that you people are reading this pap series.

Bake
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Liberal Veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
37. I tried to read it but it was so preachy and theologically unsound...
...I gave up half way through the first book.

These books are crap that pander to the whole "rapture" crowd that I was raised with and found out later in life it was nothing more than a big fat lie (the rapture portion that is, not necessarily the Christianity part).
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