"Some things are just God's will"

[linazelle]

That's how my best friend since 6th grade explained BizarroWorld.

I haven't talked to her in a while--last night was the first time since NOLA. So I asked her what she thought about NOLA.

First, she's sick of hearing about it. Secondly, she thinks that God's trying to send us all a message. For the piece' de resistance she said we cannot pay attention to what "Man" is doing. "Man will always destroy and fight." She says we have to prepare for the hereafter.

Me? The hair is raising on my neck as I'm thinking who the fuck are you? I don't know you anymore.

It has really hit home why BUSH strongly supports religion because it makes people passive and docile--just the way they need them to be so that they can steal them blind.

It's so easy to passively write everything off as God's will--and not lift a finger.

[lildreamer316]

1. HELPS those who HELP themselves.

That is all.........

[linazelle]

5. Exactly. I didn't push the point--I think I was too shocked to even

remember this point to be frank. But that's true--God helps those who help themselves.

[lildreamer316]

9. I'm sure

you were quite taken aback. I am always one of those who dissembles when confronted by something like that coming from someone who I thougt I knew. Then two hours later comest the "Aha!" moment. Oh, well.

[Flying Dream Blues]

61. Don't you mean "disassemble?" :)

[spacelady]

63. Now Alice, don't let the Red Queen hear you say that. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. That statement isn't anywhere in the Bible.

It's attributed to "anonymous," and is usually used by fundies and freepers -- who claim it IS in the Bible -- as an excuse not to help the poor.

[linazelle]

15. I don't think anybody said it was in the bible. But it IS true ...

the Freepers use it as an excuse not to help, but we latch onto it as the very reason why we need to roll up our sleeves and dig in.

[daninthemoon]

26. I think it was Ben Franklin, but definetly not the Bible. "The meek shall

inherit the Earth". That's the Bible.

[texpatriot2004]

2. Don't blame God this stupidity is all human n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

72. Yup. Humans who have

"fallen away from God..."

Fallen away, my ass.

If God's will means bombing the shit out of people, then I'll cheerfully go to hell.

[texpatriot2004]

86. Yeah, did you see that recent article about how did the

land of Jesus get it so wrong...something like that; in other words, how did the Christians in the US miss the mark on Jesus?

[valerief]

3. Religion annihilates critical thinking

At least, the fundie religions do.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

73. MOST religions do...

it's so sad...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. "Religion is the opiate of the masses."

I guess Karl Marx was right about a few things...

[Graf Orlok]

6. God's will is to kill people?

If that's the case, I want nothing to do with the Christian God...even if he is real.

[linazelle]

8. I know what you mean. But, there are many more people out there

who think the same way she does. And it pisses me off.

[daninthemoon]

17. That's not the Christian God. That's the distorted fundie view.

The first post hits a big point, though. Ever since Raygun, the rethugs caught on to what Europe's monarchs counted on throughout most of their history, up until the Renaisance and Reformation. Keep the masses dumbed up and counting on a church to tell them what is right and wrong, and always defer to God's having chosen their ruler.
This is one of the biggest reasons the founding fathers did all they could, like put it in the Constitution, that the government MUST be kept seperate from any church. My own sister used to be a well informed fan of knowledge. Her husband figured out that if he kept them in a church that was heavily into the wives obeying God's place for them, subserviant to the husband, he could be the big boss. Now, they don't have cable TV, so they don't have any kind of discovery or history channel. Godamn rush limbaugh is their main source of news. My other sister and I can barely even recognize this as the sister we grew up with. Worst of all, their kids are being raised to the same ignorance, including the lone son being treated like a king, and the girls not even being expected or encouraged to go to college. I blame these Godamn rethugs and their fundie partners for what may well be the Apocalypse of America. None of this is God's will. It is all human greed and power lust.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. It's the dark side of the information explosion

Where once there were 3 channels, now there's a supermarket of information, infotainment, and just plain bullshit. The good news is, the truth is harder to cover up.. the bad news is, the people who want to relax in the comfort of their bullshit delusions have ample fodder in which to do so.

[linazelle]

25. Another personal story about religion...

I had a childhood friend whose mother was a religious fanatic. She went to church every waking moment, 7 days a week--dragging her one and only daughter with her.

My sister and I would stay at my friend's house and she at ours for sleepovers. At our house, we played with dolls, watched TV, just the stuff that kids do. She was always glad to be around us. At her house, her mom would take us out and we would help pass out leaflets and pamphlets about God and getting "saved." It was a game to us--as we ran around laughing as we passed out leaflets to passersby while saying "God Bless You." Other times my sister and I went to church with them. There were the preachers who would "HEAL" the lame. I was pushed down a few times by one of their touches to my forehead.

My friend hated her mother. She grew up and became an alcoholic. She died at 28--pretty much of alcoholism.

It's an example of how extreme religion and total devotion to God is hardly ever a good thing. I guess this is why priests and nuns take vows of celibacy--there's wisdom in that thinking.

[Pool Hall Ace]

And what is this message that God is trying to send us?

Might it have anything to do with global warming???

[cynatnite]

7. The last sentence is very accurate...

It's always 'gawd's will' whenever anything bad happens and there is no reason to do anything.

They believe gawd does it all and sit like lumps on log waiting for the second coming. They usually won't shutup either. They'll preach to you to change your heathen ways or else :evilgrin:

[WritingIsMyReligion]

78. I LOVE

my heathen ways, tyvm.

:evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

10. SOMETHING is sending us a fuckin' message, and it does relate to

human behaviors we need to change --- FAST.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1111569,00.html

But I'm not sure that entity is "God", and I'm VERY sure the message doesn't have jack diddly shit to do with someone being mad at us about gay rights, premarital sex, or porn.

As near as I can figure, what the message is saying- in the language of mother nature- is this:

"do something about your global petroleum addiction, or you folks are in VERY deep shit"

[linazelle]

13. You are right, we are getting a message but some have their signals

crossed. They think the message is the impending rapture. I thought that only the most radical people believed in the rapture. But my friend is not radical--she's a loving, caring (albeit very misguided) person. That's what's so shocking about this for me.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. The cultural chasm has been getting REALLY big

Half the people in this country seem to me to be on a different planet. A CBS poll had some crazy results like 60% of Americans agree that "God Created Man in his current form" and more believe that the bible's genesis account is LITERALLY true than believe in evolution and the proven scientific history of planet Earth.

I blame the educational system, and a very effective right-wing brainwashing/dumbing down job.

[daninthemoon]

30. See, I don't know if I believe in those poll results. I can't. It means

our society has taken huge steps backwards in the last few years. I do accept your blaming the educational system. These rethugs have done everything they can think of to keep the masses as ignorant as they can. Just don't question authority, and everything will be just fine, right?

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Those numbers make me want to bang my head against a brick wall

I can't believe they're right.

But clearly there's a big chunk of the populace that buys into a lot of crazy, inane crap. People still link 9-11 and Iraq. People think Global Warming is made up "to make money for environmentalists" (how?)

Shit, it seems lots of people actually voted for Bush, even without Diebold's help.

It's depressing.

[Warren DeMontague]

21. And I don't believe it's a conscious message, from an actual "being"

There's no moral or intelligent component to it, except from the moral perspective of life on planet Earth. No "One" is "telling" us to do things differently, we are just starting to see the consequences of some of our actions.

If you put your hand on a hot stove and get burned, it's not because Jesus is sitting in judgement of your sinful hand-putting activities. It's because hot stove + your hand = ouch.

Likewise, excess CO2 means a hotter planet. That's science, not morality.

Amazing that the Bush crowd and the religious right, people who love to flog phrases like "consequences for behavior", are so damn oblivious to the consequences of crap like a decade of Detroit promoting monster SUVs and trucks to with nonexistent fuel economy... to Jesus Fish Bedecked 'Merkins with size inadequacy issues.

[linazelle]

66. Agreed. The state we find ourselves in is of our own making--not God's.nt

[Splatter Phoenix]

77. Oh, THANK you!

I've been trying for ages to come up with a comparison for this and why the message is scientific as opposed to sinful for some idiots in my art class who're all like "GAWD. GAWD IS GOOD AND KEELS SINNAHS."

[daninthemoon]

35. I read something interesting, I wish I remembered where. The rapture

is a very recent notion. It's not really in the Bible. I wish I could be more literate or exact, but it's actualy a fundie invention. As far as a message from these storms, odvously it would be about global warming. The ice cap is 20% smaller than last year! As for gays, I believe that is how either God or nature made them. There is no other logical way to see it.

[Carolab]

60. Yes, it WAS made up.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=179

SNIP

What is so terrifying is that this process of turning away from our own future emerges out of a bizarre death wish known as "the Rapture" that is afflicting a substantial enough proportion of the American population to affect the electoral process.

These mad people, and there are millions of them, are led by lunatics who have extrapolated some sort of "code" out of the bible that tells them that the world will soon end and the self selected "elect" will be "raptured" into heaven while the rest of us are left behind by the cruel, selfish and mean-spirited god of their dreams.

In other words, Jesus Christ, the great master of compassion, will transform into the great champion of the selfish, and heap rewards on the few while leaving the many to perish.

Of course, this is silly fallacy. It was invented in the 19th century by a couple of semi-educated fanatics who mixed Bible verses with their own loopy fantasies and came up with something about as sensible as the idiotic Nazi "eternal ice" theories of the crackpot Hans Horbiger.

SNIP

And:

http://www.st-benedict.org/Articles/RAPTURE.htm

SNIP

Based upon a misreading of Revelation 20 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, the “Rapture” in its strictest sense refers to a belief that Jesus will return near the end of time to resurrect the dead and remove the living from this earth, will take them to heaven while leaving the lost souls of this world to endure the Tribulation and the reign of the Anti-Christ. For many, it is a very comforting thought that Christians won’t have to endure the Great Tribulation. However, this is NOT the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ or the belief of the ancient Church and we reject it for that and other reasons.

The doctrine of the “rapture” was not heard in Christianity until sometime after 1807 when a Scottish pastor began advocating this concept, much to the joy of his followers. However, the belief wasn’t to gain much adherence until the mid-20th century. Since then, it has become popular to the point of becoming a mandatory doctrine in many churches in North America. As I said, however, this belief was not present in Christianity in the 18 preceding centuries, you won’t find it among the writings of the ancient Christian fathers and that is one reason why Orthodox Christians don’t accept it.

A second reason is this. The doctrine of the rapture does not fit into the outline of end time events as offered by our Lord Jesus Christ. The earliest doctrine of the end times which the first Christians held was given by our Lord Himself and is recorded in St. Matthew’s Gospel . These words were understood, believed, and transmitted for five decades before the book of Revelation was written.

SNIP

[elehhhhna]

67. They leave out the good part, though. The AFTER RAPTURE PARTY:

After the super-good ones go to heaven and the wars & stuff are done, that's when the MEEK inherit the earth.

Think I'll just stick around for that. The religionuts and naughty guys gone? Sounds good.

[Carolab]

54. It's the ENVIRONMENT. The planet is shrugging us off like a cold.

We have been TRASHING it and it's payback time.

God, schmod.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. You and I are in agreement n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

76. For sure. Fucking neocon

idiots just think they can walk all over the place and trash the earth... GOD isn't going to smite them down; the very energies of nature shall...

[WritingIsMyReligion]

74. Shit up to our collective eye-balls,

for sure.

[MazeRat7]

11. Why does "God" need a "will" ?

If you buy into the monotheistic view of an all powerful deity, then the concept of will makes no sense for such a powerful singular entity.

MZr7

[linazelle]

14. Good point, but since when did religion and logic mix?

I must say that I am not anti-Christian. There is a place for God in my life. But I also use the brain He gave me.

[daninthemoon]

39. That is exactly what God wants. Life is for learning. I think God is

very disappointed and saddened by this fundie crap. I'm a Christian, but I have been one since before this recent turn to ignorance. Churches used to places for intelligent discussion as well as prayers and services. Now too many are personality cults modeled after the televangelists.

[cynatnite]

19. An all powerful and all knowing deity would be passive as hell...

That's the way I see it.

I flipped my fundie mom out the other day when I told her I believed god was neither a he or a she, but a spiritual being. She kept wanting to assign a sex to god which I don't buy.

I have no idea if god exists or not...I don't know, but if god does, then god is a spiritual entity who is passive and has no desire to interefere in the life of this planet's inhabitants.

If a person were to follow the bible, god gave adam and eve the choice whether or not to eat the apple. It seems to me that if god uses threats and punishments to make humans do what he or she wants them to do, then where is the choice?

[slay]

16. That's the philosophy of far too many - submit to your rulers, it's "God's

will". Well screw that. Anyone who can't argue a point without playing the "God" card isn't worth arguing with. I say that because they are brainwashed to the point that rational thoughts and ideas no longer hold true weight with these people. It wasn't "God" who created all this death over in Iraq - it was petty, slimy, creepy criminals like Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Perle, etc - and last time I checked they were all lowly little humans just like the rest of us. Using their stupid philosophy you can do anything you want - rob a bank, rape a child, and you WILL believe it's ok, because of course, it was "God's will". What a pathetic cop out. Sorry to hear your friend chose that path. You summed it up real nicely when you said "It's so easy to passively write everything off as God's will--and not lift a finger". Not that I buy into their philosophy one damn bit, but perhaps it's "God's will" that we fight these Republican bastards? Maybe they'd listen to that. Who knows. :shrug:

[dretceterini]

18. The teachings of Christ

have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the teaching and agenda of the church.

[Orrex]

24. That's because

Christ, according to the tale, wasn't seeking worldly power, wealth, or fame. I'm confident that you know this already, but it can't be stated often enough.

[Cha]

29. That's right. I'd like to point

that out to a fundiecrat, one of these days.

[slay]

34. Someone should make a poster

of Jesus saying "Help! I've been kidnapped by Republicans!" Hehehe.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

23. I notice it's always God's will when it happens to someone else n/t

[WritingIsMyReligion]

82. Yup.... nice siggy picture, btw

:evilgrin:

:rofl::rofl:

[FM Arouet666]

27. Accepting religion is often due to apathy and fear.

Yes, a provocative statement, but true for many religious people.

Why question religion, you are offered an eternity of peace and joy for your belief, you cannot question for fear of punishment. We can never answer the ultimate question, what happens after death?, except for the rosy image which religion provides, so why question? Fear is a strong motivator for many.

Religion is easy, you are told what to think, the "word" never changes, you never have to think for yourself. The world is too complicated, some things are just too complex to understand, god is an easy answer. With god you have, no worries, no concerns, no fears, no thinking, no problems. Apathy is another strong motivator for many.

Most adherents to religion have varying degrees of fear and apathy.

[linazelle]

33. Yes it's easy to be lazy under the cloak of religion--lay back and

let the heavenly Father aka Big Daddy take care of it all.

[daninthemoon]

44. I wouldn't say most adherents to most religions. Fundies are a

cult. A big cult getting bigger every day. They hark back to a dark age view of religion and man. The modern quest is to find man's place in religion along with scientific and historical fact. This is the challenging approach to faith, and it reveals truths. Now, let me give you another thought. Suppose these rethugs and fundie leaders are not just opportunistic and greedy. Suppose they are in fact evil. Anti-Christian. Among other things, Jesus spoke of truth and light. These guys are some of the biggest liars in history. Suppose that the whole fundie belief system is actually Anti-Christian. I think these guys are hurting peoples souls as well as their lives and planet.

[Splatter Phoenix]

81. I wouldn't go that far.

The underlings are idiots for going along with it. Perhaps the higher-ups realize what they're doing is evil..

I dunno. All forms of religion bother me. It's too easily hijacked and twisted, and has been in the past, as you said; the dark age view.

[Cha]

28. To me it's like a cult.

They can't think for themselves.

I just wish there weren't so many of them living in my country.

[linazelle]

31. You're right, the thinking is very cult-like. These people are one

step away from Jim Jones and Jonestown.

It's amazing how the term "drinking the koolaid" fits on so many levels.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. Exactly

So he could get away with everything and they all can. They always do that and they can find someone else to blame.

[kentuck]

36. If God can do anything....?

Can he do something or make something that no one can understand as God's will?

[linazelle]

40. You mean like science?

Zealotry is so blinding that most followers can't recognize that science is the creation of men made by The One And Only. Instead, they want to dismiss things "of this world" for the afterlife and to dismiss all the creatures of God's own making. Who's to say that their thinking, as fallible humans, is not misguided--that they are the one's who don't understand His will?

[dretceterini]

42. No, God is the creation

of men. Everything you atribute to this theistic, "outside creative agent" called God, is simply innate in existance itself.

[Carolab]

37. Let me guess. Your friend is a loser. Her life is shit. n/t

[linazelle]

41. No she is not a loser, her life is not shit. She's just like many

others--the people you see coming and going every day. She believes what she believes, unfortunately. And unfortunately, I don't feel much of a connection between us any more just like I don't feel a connection to the idiot at work who has a picture of BUSH pasted on the wall.

[Carolab]

45. If her life is NOT shit, then why would she give it up so freely?

It makes no sense.

Does she have children who depend on her? Or any family members she cares about? Or does she think they all should just enjoy the Rapture as well?

Tell her her Death wish is dragging down the rest of us who don't share her convictions.

[cynatnite]

46. It's a matter of belief

It does make sense, but only if you understand how this stuff works. People like this are taught that gawd and the bible are the answer to every day living. They use to pay their bills, plan their meals, go places, friends, family, etc.

It's how they live their entire lives and they can have families plus be financially successful (greedy).

[Carolab]

48. They are, simply, NUTS, and further they are SELFISH.

http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=179

{snip}

If you are not infected with the death-wish disease, THEN what do you do? Most importantly, speak out. It is past time to be polite to the Rapturists and the professional liars: every time you hear such a person promoting these ideas, you should engage them. Often, the hallucination can be penetrated with surprising ease, especially when you draw them into considering the children and the unborn.

{snip}

[cynatnite]

50. I don't think they are ALL nuts...

some of the more extreme ones are who looks at gawd as the end all and be all of every single little thing in the entire universe plus view the bible as literal.

Some of them are actually reasonable and logical. They believe as Jesus did and take his word to heart by helping the helpless. They believe in Jesus' beatitudes from the sermon on the mount...the meek inheriting the earth and all that. They don't believe in war and are pro-life across the spectrum. They are what I call the consistent christians who know that these rw nutjob fundies are nowhere near what Jesus taught.

[Carolab]

51. Clearly, linazelle's friend is NOT one of those. She is one of the others

of the lunatic fringe who think that we should ALL go down to the river and drown just because THEY do.

These people are our enemies. They are NOT fighting to stop the evil, and so, by DEFINITION, they are EVIL.

[cynatnite]

52. I do agree :) n/t

[linazelle]

55. There's a fine line between fundie nut jobs and some overly religious

folks. I had always avoided the religious threads here because I thought they were too extreme--that people would actually advocate killing to hasten the rapture was unfathomable to me. While my friend doesn't advocate killing, her beliefs are as close as you can get to THEM. She will allow the things we abhor to happen because she believes they are a prelude to the Second Coming.

[cynatnite]

59. They take the bible for it's literal meaning...

which is a huge mistake, IMO. Revelation...most fundies think it's all symbolic and told from a primitive guy who saw visions. That in itself goes against the rest of the bible they take literally.

For one thing I've never believed anyone should take it literally. For another, it was all written by fallible men who had their own agendas. The other reason I don't buy into the bible is because the catholic church put the book together. Now, if that ain't an agenda driven place, I don't know what is.

[linazelle]

47. She does have two children and many friends. I guess people

like her don't see the connection between harm that could happen to them directly and harm that happens to others. I will say that she has endured a lot of tragedy in her life--losing both parents by age 16 causing her family of eight brothers and sisters to be split up; losing her first child to crib death and then having a brother and sister die within months of one another about five years ago. So you can see why she's religious--but it's a shame what it does to a person.

[Carolab]

53. If that stuff happened to me, I don't think it would make me religious.

It would only make me mad/sad and determined to go on and do something worthwhile with my life, NOT encourage others to simply "go (and I mean, literally, GO) with God".

[cynatnite]

57. It should really make people more spiritual...

unfortunately, too many confuse the two. I think that's the biggest mistake made by a lot of people.

I consider myself more spiritual than I used to be. I believe there is some higher being...not female and not male...passive and observant who looks at the hearts of people. That's about as far as I can get.

[Carolab]

58. The higher being is the collective conscience.

If the majority is working toward good, good happens.

[leftofthedial]

43. religion makes people insane so that those in power can manipulate them

always has

[WritingIsMyReligion]

75. Yup. I like to say:

"I shouldn't have to bend myself to fit a spiritual path; a spiritual path should bend itself to fit ME."

Edited to fix typo

[Raksha]

49. That's exactly why Marx said religion is the opiate of the people.

And the righties whether religious or not themselves want to keep it that way! As long as they can brainwash the sheeple into passively accepting injustice as "God's will," they won't look around to see who is REALLY responsible.

Edited to correct a typo.

[L.A.dweller]

56. It is all about power and legitimizing

uber capitalism. This legitimation through religion has been going on since the dawn of colonialism and imperialism. I think that Chrisitian Fundamentalism is a means that the powerful use to justify their rise (and use of) power. Their lust and greed hasn't allowed for them to stop and think about what affects they are having on the natural environment.
The Eastern religions are contemplative of the natural environment around them. To bad Buddhism didn't become the dominant religion of our powerful country.

[spacelady]

62. When my very good longtime friends find Jesus and the Bible to be

the total guide to their life, I tell them that I have had signs that I may be the Second Coming. My birthday 2/20/62 comes very close to the harmonic convergence that hails the New Messiah. I proceed to mess with their minds and make them wonder. How can they refute the possibility?

[WritingIsMyReligion]

70. ROFLMAO... nt

[donheld]

65. Maybe 9/11 was just God's will?

Wonder what her kind would say to that.

[elehhhhna]

69. only "some" things are gods will, remember.

I'd love to know who decides which things are which.

lol

[WritingIsMyReligion]

71. Some "Holier-than-thou" bastard, undoubtedly...nt

[WritingIsMyReligion]

68. OMFG... Do NOT get me started

on the evils of organized religions like that... Me, I'm a nothing, and damn proud of it.

[alittlelark]

79. Your friend sounds like my mother.

They are comforted in knowing that they have no need to do anything about anything. It's all in God's hands.

[rbajai]

80. It's a CULT

plain and simple. The cult of Bush.

[Nikia]

83. I heard a radio preacher

Say that Katrina was part of a message that says that America has to wake up and stop aborting babies, making homosexual unions the same as marriage, and getting God out of schools. I guess that I should of expected him to say that, but even if God was trying to send a message with the hurricane, why wouldn't it be about polluting the environment, greed, disregarding the poor, and fighting unjust wars? Those were the issues that seemed directly involved after all.

[ComerPerro]

84. No, not because it makes them passive and docile

but because it conditions them to accept things unquestioningly.

[u4ic]

85. Why do these people think natural disasters

are a way of god sending a message?

Why can't he just put a full page ad in the NYT? Considering all the money Robertson, Hinn, et al collect for him, you'd think he'd be able to afford it...:shrug: