Waaaaaaa: "Why don't women like nice guys?"

[Maddy McCall]

Maybe they just don't like whiners.

[clydefrand]

1. Oh, but we do. At least "I" do!

[GOPisEvil]

2. Yeah, we want YOU to come looking for us!

You should just KNOW we're nice guys and come running!

[WCGreen]

3. I always tell my younger friends

Don't whine or say whoa is me


Until they see you naked

[dhinojosa]

4. Yeah, I was a nice guy too, no girls

until I started drinking, and cussing, and calling people pus filled bitches. Then I couldn't keep the ladies off.

True story.

[tomreedtoon]

5. Because no one knows what women like.

Even women themselves. I've been a nice guy all my life, simply because that's the right thing to do, and no woman will even smile in my direction. I do not expect gratitude for being a nice guy, in fact, I expect brickbats and gunshots for it.

Anyone who says they know what women want - especially women - are liars.

[WCGreen]

11. I'm nice, but not emasculated....

There is a fine line that drives women away....

Tell me my nice guy friend, would you want to date someone who deferred to every one of your wishes....

Cause you know what, that is what "nice guys" usually do to try and show a woman hove thoughtfull yu are....

Believe me I tried that route and it wasn't until I stood up for myself and looked for a fifty fifty relationship that I found happyness with a woman..

[VelmaD]

16. gee...

misogynistic much

Yup...all women are the same, we're one big monolithic group. What. Ever.

[GOPisEvil]

18. Oh come on, you know y'all have meetings to plan ways to mess with us.

[VelmaD]

21. Yes...and we laugh at you...

behind your back. *snort*

[GOPisEvil]

22. I knew it!

If my name comes up at the next meeting, put in a good word for me.

[tomreedtoon]

32. Oh, if only women WERE alike.

No, each woman has a different personality and a different attitude, but they all hate nice guys. Some of you are masochistic, some of you are demanding, some of you are just plain hostile, and some of you are insensitive.

If you ladies were all alike in some way, it would be much easier, but you're a giant, amorphous, ever-changing and ever-hostile force, and that makes it all the more frustrating for us nice guys.

By the way, just because you're ever-hostile doesn't mean I'll stop being a nice guy. I just won't expect any kindness or consideration from women in return. It would be greedy to expect a reward for good acts, anyway.

[redqueen]

38. Do you fucking HEAR yoruself?

Fuck... turn it around... then see how much sense it makes!

"Oh, if only men WERE alike... No, each man has a different personality and a different attitude, but they all hate plain women. Some of you are masochistic, some of you are demanding, some of you are just plain hostile, and some of you are insensitive.

If you men were all alike in some way, it would be much easier, but you're a giant, amorphous, ever-changing and ever-hostile force, and that makes it all the more frustrating for us plain women.

By the way, just because you're ever-hostile doesn't mean I'll stop being a plain woman. I just won't expect any kindness or consideration from men unless I get a boob job or massive facial surgery so I become your "ideal". It would be greedy to expect a reward for good acts, anyway."


This shit never gets old!

[Misunderestimator]

51. Excellent post!

[redqueen]

57. hehe

Thanks.

[tomreedtoon]

62. All I know is what I see, Red Queen.

I'm nice to women. I do things for them like mop the cat crap off their floors and clean up their homes, when they don't have the strength and health to do so. I have never even heard "thank you."

I try to treat women who are obviously sexual in a way that shows that I am not drooling over them, that I respect their intelligence. They listen for a second, then flock to the bastard with the greasy hair who will beat them bloody and leave their corpse in an alley.

I don't have a way to prove it, unless you'd like to spend some time inside my skull and experience it along with me - and although I have lots of space inside my skull, I don't think you would wish to, since it would shatter your illusions about the way the sexes work.

Besides, that would require you to be kind to a nice guy, and women never do that. Thus, you prove that I am right.

[Susang]

73. Sorry, but you don't seem very nice to me

Judging from your posts on this thread, you seem downright angry, defensive and hateful. Sorry, I just know what I see.

[progmom]

75. Do you think you're being nice to women in this thread?

[Susang]

78. Sadly, I think he does

[JimmyJazz]

80. You beat me to it by about a minute.

[redqueen]

88. Responses:

I'm nice to women. I do things for them like mop the cat crap off their floors and clean up their homes, when they don't have the strength and health to do so. I have never even heard "thank you."

Then stop being nice to THOSE women... they do not appreciate your kindness.

I try to treat women who are obviously sexual in a way that shows that I am not drooling over them, that I respect their intelligence. They listen for a second, then flock to the bastard with the greasy hair who will beat them bloody and leave their corpse in an alley.

What does "women who are obviously sexual" mean, even? I mean... I would think you'd treat ALL women in a way that shows that you recognize that they're people, just like you, only with different sex organs.

Why do you persist in generalizing women (they all do x) when you scolded another poster for doing that to men (they all want x). I'm really curious... I know you can see this... please address it!

I don't have a way to prove it, unless you'd like to spend some time inside my skull and experience it along with me - and although I have lots of space inside my skull, I don't think you would wish to, since it would shatter your illusions about the way the sexes work.

What illusions? Care to expand on that?

Besides, that would require you to be kind to a nice guy, and women never do that. Thus, you prove that I am right.

There you go again with the generalization... This is what I get from your posts in this thread so far:

Your bitterness over the way you perceive that you've been slighted has led you to act like "ALL women are X, therefore my hiding my contempt for them inside while outwardly acting nice towards them is justified"...

[Sugar Smack]

95. Another day, another "Women are bitches" thread.

Maddy & Redqueen:

[Misunderestimator]

101. Hey what about me?

[Sugar Smack]

104. OH, you get the love AND a bone-crushing hug!

[Misunderestimator]

105. YaY!!

[redqueen]

124. Yep... as regular as the tides.

progmom & Sugar Smack & havocmom & SusanG & Cyndee_Lou_Who & Lydia Leftcoast & VelmaD & Maddy & Misunderestimator...

[Misunderestimator]

126. LOL....redqueen...

you funny!

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

141. Nice postin' there, sweetcheeks.

I mean, RedQueen.

[redqueen]

152. hahahaha

[progmom]

143. hey! what about me?

[Misunderestimator]

147. Copycat!

[progmom]

151. I prefer to think of it as a tribute post

[redqueen]

150. Shoot!

Fixed it. I knew that was gonna happen... durnit.

Sorry!

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

169. Awww.... know what?

harder!!

[northzax]

181. excuse me, that's

bitches and hos to you.

[Sugar Smack]

195. MOUTHY bitches & hos.

[northzax]

200. mouthy? no, uppity is the word you were looking for.

no charge for the service. Just do an extra load of laundry tonight.

[Misunderestimator]

93. So, basically every guy here at DU is capable of beating their girlfriends

and wives bloody and leave them in alleys, because they are not nice guys. Of course you don't have a way to prove what you're saying, because it is ALL in your mind.

Go insult women on some other forum... it isn't appreciated here.

[northzax]

182. I think it may have something to do

with the lunar cycle. I'm not sure though.

[Misunderestimator]

190. But... waxing or waning?

That's important.

[progmom]

196. i think waxing and whining

[Misunderestimator]

203. Hahaha

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. Sorry, I keep my distance from bad boys, always have, but

I also keep my distance from desperate men who try to win me over with obsequious and almost aggressive "niceness."

A man could come in, clean my apartment, change the oil in my car, even pay off my credit cards, and I wouldn't LOVE or even LUST AFTER him unless he captured my imagination with wide-ranging intelligence and wit and geniune kindness that flows naturally from his being and doesn't come off like "If I do thus and so will you love me?"

The guys who whine about how they do all this stuff for women who then have the gall to refuse to love them come off like my grandmother. You see, about thirty years ago, when I was deciding on graduate schools, my grandmother was desperate to have me stay in Minnesota. She bought me unasked for gifts and even offered to pay my expenses at the University of Minnesota. When I chose an Eastern school and came back for Christmas, there were these over-the-top presents waiting for me and daily pleas to reconsider my choice of schools. All her efforts did was make me doubly determined to put at least a thousand miles between me and her.

Tomreedtoon, your approach is not "nice"--it's demanding.

Concentrate on becoming a more genuine, more interesting person, not a doormat who plays abject slave, and do things that you like to do. Eventually you'll find someone.

The Beatles said it best: "Can't buy me love."

[PittLib]

207. You got it ...

I agree 100% and couldn't say it better. I have guys who do "favors" for me that I do not request. They claim that they have no expectations, but I beg to differ... and while I appreciate what they do, the weight of the denied expectation is too much. I'd rather not have to deal with it. I love Ani Difranco's "Not a Pretty Girl" ... it always pops into my head in these situations. I don't need to be rescued, and I can take care of myself quite fine, thank you. I (I do not presume to speak for other women) am looking for an equal, not a hero. I want someone who is intellectually stimulating and challenging and remotely original and honest. I don't need someone who is willing to defer to my every whim because I cannot be attracted to someone I cannot respect. I do not need you to make it your personal mission to make me happy or feel good about myself. That I have to do on my own. All you can do is accept and appreciate me for who I am good and bad. Don't be afraid to call me on my bullshit. I need someone with a spine. Oh - how I could go on ... but I will leave you with this:

not a pretty girl

i am not a pretty girl
that is not what i do
i ain't no damsel in distress
and i don't need to be rescued
so put me down punk
maybe you'd prefer a maiden fair
isn't there a kitten stuck up a tree somewhere

i am not an angry girl
but it seems like i've got everyone fooled
every time i say something they find hard to hear
they chalk it up to my anger
and never to their own fear
and imagine you're a girl
just trying to finally come clean
knowing full well they'd prefer you
were dirty and smiling

and i am sorry
i am not a maiden fair
and i am not a kitten stuck up a tree somewhere

and generally my generation
wouldn't be caught dead working for the man
and generally i agree with them
trouble is you gotta have yourself an alternate plan
and i have earned my disillusionment
i have been working all of my life
and i am a patriot
i have been fighting the good fight
and what if there are no damsels in distress
what if i knew that and i called your bluff?
don't you think every kitten figures out how to get down
whether or not you ever show up

i am not a pretty girl
i don't want to be a pretty girl
no i want to be more than a pretty girl

- ani difranco



PS - I do not go for guys who treat me like shit, either ... so you cannot relegate me to "bad-boy lover" status.

[leftofthedial]

72. please do not get a boob job

please do not get facial surgery unless it is medically necessary.

No extraordinary woman is ever "plain."

[redqueen]

136. Well...

I was really just trying to illustrate a point... that women can generalize about men, too... but it's never fair, let alone productive.

Sad how many women have come to believe that surgery is no more serious an issue than lipstick... and just as necessary to be appreciated by men.

[leftofthedial]

144. honesty is beautiful

[Blue-Jay]

81. !

<munch munch munch...>

[StopTheMorans]

96. do you have any juju fruits to go along with that popcorn, my good man?

[GOPisEvil]

122. .

[progmom]

74. I'm speechless

This is how you feel about women, and you're surprised you don't get any "gratitude"??

[greatauntoftriplets]

168. You think men are easy to understand????

Or that woman-bashing is a good act?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

185. HA!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

183. Wow - how freaking tedious

"eyes:

[redqueen]

37. Funny that you can decry generalizations in one post, yet back it up here.

Hypocritical much?

[Misunderestimator]

49. Kind of strange to blame an entire group of people for what you perceive

as no one liking "nice guys." I know a LOT of nice guys. In fact, I knew a guy so nice once years ago, that even I went out with him, and I'm gay.

I think you need to look inward for your answers.

[leftofthedial]

76. personally, I blame everyone.

All people are the same.

Or at least all THOSE people are.

[StopTheMorans]

107. that's the ticket; everyone ELSE is crazy!

[progmom]

77. What is it that *all* men want?

[leftofthedial]

79. heh heh heh

you KNOW what we all want.



beer and the remote mostly.

[Susang]

86. No food?

My husband always wants food.

[leftofthedial]

89. beer is the perfect food

[Susang]

90. He does say that about Guinness

A meal in a pint.

[Zuni]

162. that is truth

for some reason we always want to eat

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

154. A good tuna melt? (nt)

[redqueen]

175. Oops!

I just remembered to eat lunch.

Wish I had a tuna melt.

[Zomby Woof]

6. Nini loves me

Which shoots the theory women don't like nice guys all to hell. Nice guys win every time.

[Maddy McCall]

8. Tell me you aren't a whiner.

I just can't envision you whining. "Niiiiniiii. Is my baaaath water readyyyyyy?" "Niiiiniiiii, did you bring me some scoooottchhh?"

[Zomby Woof]

13. Real nice guys aren't whiny

Only whiny guys are whiny. Nice guys are strong to the core. Whiny guys are weak, and don't know what they want. They do not like strong women, and they tend to judge solely by looks when searching for the "perfect" arm accessory.

It is stupid to mistake kindness for weakness, and jesus christ on a cactus, I HATE Scotch.

[havocmom]

24. ZW, you just discribed my older bro's problems with women to a tee!

And, yes, he is whiny, insecure and bitched for friggen decades that "nice guys finish last". I argued that he chose poorly based on appearances instead of substance so he got what he deserved. Women who are secure and confident piss him off.

We are much better off not seeing each other often...

[alarcojon]

34. Nicely put

from one strong to the core nice guy to another:

[Misunderestimator]

98. Seems to me that you kind of agree with the OP on this subject...

Presenting... Why do so many women like "bad boys"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[alarcojon]

Misunderestimator

You may have noticed that I apologized to all involved for posting that there. As far as I'm concerned, I made a mistake, owned up to it, and have moved on. I hope you do, too.

[Misunderestimator]

202. Sure have... It's not about moving on... it's about recalling what people

here have written over time. I think it's important to get the right perspective.

It seemed all you really did was apologize for posting it in the Feminist group... not for any of the insults you made. To me, your attitude didn't really change at all... So I was curious why you posted here on this thread. Was this your apology:

"It was a mistake I made while browsing through the DU groups, before I realized there were rules for this group and how passionately some of you feel about them. I'm sorry I didn't read them first - that was a mistake and I own up to it fully. I have read them now and plan to abide by them."

Followed by this, which in my mind pretty much negates the apology:

"Somehow I get the feeling nothing I write will make much of a difference with you. If I try to defend myself in any way (which includes trying to reason with you), you will attack me for my "knee-jerk male defensiveness" or some similar verbal projectile. If I ignore you, you will demand to know why I refuse to "debate" you. And if I mention anything about your "tone" or about "civility" you will claim that I am trying to prevent your voice from being heard or trying to tell you how to express yourself.

So I suppose every post of mine will be followed by an accusation from you that I "don't get it," that you wish men were excluded from this group, and whatever else you might want to include. Oh well."


Seems pretty vindictive coming from someone who has just apologized.

Or maybe this was your apology:

"Anyway, I'll be happy to say: I'm sorry. I see the error of my posting the "bad boys" topic. It was male-centered in a way which violates the rules of this group. I did not understand that then, but I understand it now. I'm trying to learn. This also extends to my early posts on the "men's role in feminism" discussions."

I just don't think it qualifies to apologize for breaking rules, instead of apologizing for your offensive words.

[alarcojon]

212. Arguing with you is pointless

Take that as vindictiveness if you wish.

[Misunderestimator]

214. Ok, will do.

[Wetzelbill]

227. you don't want to go down that route for sure

[Misunderestimator]

229. Nice... are you "nice guys" going to double-team now?

[Wetzelbill]

239. nope

Just saying it's not a good idea to argue with you. It can escalate into, well, the pettiness that you and I have for each other.

Didn't you see the smilie? Everything I do is not a dig at you, you know? I'd like to get along better, I respect you and all. I pretty much have to after you've whipped my ass all week long, haha. I don't like having you as an enemy or anything. I wish you wouldn't take everything I do in that manner. Getting on your bad side is something I really regret. It's a miserable feeling having someone dislike me the way you do.

[Misunderestimator]

244. Seriously, Bill... The smilie didn't change how I interpreted that post...

And I do not believe that you meant it as anything but a jibe at me.

It IS a miserable feeling, which is why I wonder why you keep responding to me (or about me in this case) in your particular "teasing" manner, after you have offended me so many times?

DO YOU GET IT YET? Your words are your words... you can say you are JOKING as much as you like, but saying that doesn't take away your words.

If you don't like being on my bad side... put that fucking knife away that you keep jabbing into me to twist.

[Wetzelbill]

253. fair enough

We're just crossing signals on that. I will not in any way joke around like that again. If it rubs you wrong, then it rubs you wrong, I just have to be sensitive about that. I know I've been digging myself into a hole with you. I just never realized that you didn't like that particular manner at all. I thought you only didn't like it in a few instances and were never forgiving me for it. Gosh, no wonder you get so pissed. Man, I am dense. But, I'll be better from now on. I promise.

[Misunderestimator]

265. Ok

[Wetzelbill]

270. Thank you

That's really a load off of my mind. I feel better about it all now.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

254. Pathetic, isn't it?

[Wetzelbill]

262. hey no intention to double team on my part

I was just playing with fire and being an idiot. I have been set straight though. Honest.

[kmla]

50. You don't like scotch?

Ya panty waisted Nancy Boy!

[Sugar Smack]

100. .

"It is stupid to mistake kindness for weakness, and jesus christ on a cactus, I HATE Scotch."

[Zomby Woof]

129. I'm a bourbon guy

[anarch]

140. you are clearly drinking the wrong kind of scotch! n/t

[catzies]

176. Thank you for my new favorite expression: "Jesus Christ on a cactus."

I am immediately abandoning my old phrase of "Jesus Tapdancing Christ on a pogo stick."


Zomby!

[Pale Blue Dot]

9. This is very true.

Nice guys finish first!!

22 hrs, 13mins. I'm going to bed soon, I promise!

[SarahB]

325. We're down to the wire.

You are the nicest guy I've ever known!!!!

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

7. Not all 'nice guys' whine and not all whiners are 'nice guys;

Oh wait... I saw on the other thread that generalizing the other sex is all the rage.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Yep.

Crazy, isn't it.

[redqueen]

46. What other thread?

Clue me in please?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

166. Right here... .locked now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[redqueen]

187. Thanks...

"beautiful women"

Man... nice illustration of my example of a generalization about men!

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

193. What set ME off was....

"It's that most women are the female equivalent to these unevolved "moran" boy type. Am I wrong?"

[redqueen]

201. *sigh*

Yep... no shortage of disgusting comments in that OP.

[sundog]

12. they don't like nice guys who whine about women who don't like nice guys

they like manly nice men... so do i

[Maddy McCall]

26. Manly nice men who go gaga over SHARK WEEK!

You and I have MUCH in common. Are we looking for the same ideal man? LOLOLOL!

[sundog]

31. wheeeee

[MrSlayer]

14. "I'm a nice guy" is just another way of saying "I'm a dork".

Face it, you aren't "too nice" of a guy, you just aren't cool.

[Fenris]

15. ****Insert Painfully Overwrought Generalization About Women****

[Maddy McCall]

27. You said "insert"

Huhuhuhuhuhu!

[Sugar Smack]

106. OMG! OMG!

You have me in tears, here!

OK, nominating.

[giant_robot]

127. Heh-heh. Heh-heh. Heh-heh.

That was cool!

[Redstone]

17. Yup.

Redstone

[Dukkha]

19. they misinterpret "assholeness" as confidence

I always tell women there's no problem that can't be solved with me buying you all the shoes you want

never works

[PretzelWarrior]

20. no. they just don't like it that all nice guys like me are married

hahahah. if you're truly nice and not horrendously ugly...you will find a good woman. or she will find you and pretend you found her. or something like that.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

23. Liberal Chicks Dig Me

I actually saw that on a t-shirt, which I would buy and wear if it weren't for the fact that I'd be too embarrassed. And beaten half to death by my wife.

[catzies]

25. Oh please. The women who like the nice guys are waiting for them

to get over their fixation with supermodels.

Average chicks need love too but nobody talks to us.

[Zomby Woof]

28. You just summed up my post above much more succinctly

Well, except for the last part about being an average chick - I can't claim that.

(and you are well above average, so shaddap!)

[tomreedtoon]

33. Supermodels? Porn stars? YOU get over it!

I'm nice to women from age 6 to 96, from mastectomy survivors to silicone-injectors. It doesn't matter. No one is grateful.

Your generalizing about men is the real problem. I, frankly, am embarassed that I may occasionally have sexual impulses towards attractive women. In fact, I rarely talk to such women (not that I have all that many chances) and I talk to them about intelligent and human subjects, whether or not they can understand what the hell I'm talking about.

It doesn't matter. I'm nice to women because that's what I do. Expecting gratitude from women, however, is like expecting compassion from Bush. If it ever happens - ever - don't expect it to happen again.

[catzies]

35. "No one is grateful?" "It doesn't matter?" Bitter, much?

Your generalizing about women is the real problem.

[redqueen]

36. You say this example of generalizing a problem...

Do you think the generalizing that the OP is targeting (women don't like nice guys ) is a problem as well?

[Bunny]

58. There's one sentence in your post that indicates to me that you

don't like women much at all. Here it is (emphasis mine): "In fact, I rarely talk to such women (not that I have all that many chances) and I talk to them about intelligent and human subjects, whether or not they can understand what the hell I'm talking about."

You come across as pretty condescending, frankly. And real, real bitter. To quote Dr. Phil - how's that workin' for ya?

Good luck in your search for love.

[tomreedtoon]

66. Search for love? Hah!

I'm not stupid enough to search for love. Friendship would be nice. And sometimes I find it with women...but that friendship depends upon me not expecting their thanks for anything I do for them.

You're quoting that jerk Dr. Phil? The Therepist from Auschwitz? How is that working for YOU? Has he got you booked into one of his gulags yet?

It is not bitterness to tell the truth that is smashed into your face every time you live up to your ideals of being nice.

[Bunny]

71. Heh. I bet you're a lot of fun at parties!

[tigereye]

295. you aren't supposed to do nice stuff just so women or anyone,

for that matter, will be grateful! As my mom said, virtue is it's own reward.

[Misunderestimator]

59. GRATEFUL? I don't expect GRATITUDE from anyone... you expect

gratitude for being NICE? OMG!

And what's with this SEXIST CRAP:

"I rarely talk to such women (not that I have all that many chances) and I talk to them about intelligent and human subjects, whether or not they can understand what the hell I'm talking about."



Rest assured... they can understand your crap... which is probably why you aren't experiencing much fucking gratitude.

[StopTheMorans]

61. i'd thank you for your post, but i wouldn't get a box of brownies in the

mail from you if i did, so i'll refrain and just hide under my desk and wait for the gratitude fairy to come instead

[Misunderestimator]

63. I am ever so grateful for you StopTheMorans.

You must not be a nice guy...

[StopTheMorans]

64. no, i am bad, BAD!

look out Leroy Brown, StopTheMorans is the new badass in the lounge.

[Misunderestimator]

67. Meaner than a junkyard dog!

[Sugar Smack]

114. *leaning helplessly on Misunderestimator's shoulder*

LOL! halp! OMG! LOL!

[Sugar Smack]

111. SWAG IS NICE.

Swag is a good listener, he's kind and compassionate and has an INNATE CURIOSITY about people that BENEFITS him. Swag is innundated with women. He's up to his pits in them.

[Sugar Smack]

120. Swag is nice, and Zuni is the cock of everything.

[tigereye]

297. aw they are both sweeties!

[Sugar Smack]

310. Cheers, tigereye!

Knowing what you like is helpful!

A man who's nice.



You make me laugh, did I mention?

[tigereye]

318. this is good

I am glad.

[progmom]

164. no...i think it is YOUR generalizing about WOMEN that is the real problem

If women aren't grateful to you...for "talking to them about intelligent...subjects whether or not they can understand what the hell (you're) talking about," then maybe...just maybe...it's because you are an angry, sexist jackass.

[bloom]

329. See this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[leftofthedial]

82. define "average"

[catzies]

291. I'm using average to mean anything not supermodel-gorgeous and

Or not too tall or not too short, not too skinny or not too fat. You know, average.

[WCGreen]

29. I talk to women all the time....

I treat women like I treat men, with respect if they deserve it....

The best thing to do is just be yourself....

Don't let someone else dictate how you behave.....

That's what being yourself is all about....

When I found that out, I dated and had relationships with women I liked, and to me, they were all above average, they were all supermodels, and they were all good to be with....

Cause in the end, if you are not true to yourself, you can't be true to anyone else......

[MN ChimpH8R]

44. Tried that a couple of times

Not that I have had very many opportunities. Tried being steady and supportive - always there, Mr. Rock Solid, cry on my shoulder anytime - for a former colleague going through a traumatic divorce. Fell head-over-heels in love with her. But in her mind I was just a (straight) "gay friend." Finding that out was exceedingly traumatic. Don't ever want to go through that again

Did the same thing with another female acquaintance I found interesting and attractive when she was having some issues and got exactly the same results. That I had feelings for her was obvious. And she seems to date nothing but oafs who are nowhere near good or smart enough for her.

Bah, humbug. My (wonderful and incredibly helpful) therapist thinks that I should look overseas. Then we'd both be on neutral ground - we'd both have a cultural difference to deal with and my Asperger's issues could be dealt with once-removed in a pen-pal/phone call relationship until we get to know each other better.

Edited for spelling

[Tyrone Slothrop]

68. Try the same thing with some women who aren't going through a divorce

or who have "some issues".

Things will work out a lot better then. Trust me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

125. Don't play therapist with a troubled woman

and expect her to fall in love with you.

My God, what is it with these clueless men who think that you win a woman's love by doing favors for her?

[MN ChimpH8R]

134. Was _not_ playing therapist

I thought I was being a loyal and understanding friend. I was only letting the women in question know that if they needed some support or someone to talk to, I would be there and/or listen - and I was. I wasn't offering solutions. I didn't expect anything in particular in return.

As for my "cluelessness," it is something I was born with and can't really do too much about.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

145. Well, okay, but from now on

remember that no woman will ever fall in love with you out of gratitude. I've never known of a real life example.

[ulysses]

30. them tables can turn pretty quickly

when the nice guy gets hitched and the woman he pined away for for a couple of years realizes that her bad boy is really just sort of a slob. And a twit.

Not that I speak from experience.

[pdx_prog]

39. I think you have to be a mixture of nice and bad....

[leftofthedial]

40. women are only good for a few specific things

and picking the right man isn't one of them.

[redqueen]

45. Did you mean to use a winkie smiley, or shall I go ahead and alert?

[StopTheMorans]

47. REOWWWWRRRRRRR!

[redqueen]

52. Sorry, but I honestly did not know if this guy was joking.

Pretty fucking sad, innit?

[StopTheMorans]

53. yes

[leftofthedial]

85. you said "fucking"

:giggle:

:titter:

[leftofthedial]

48. winkie

smilie

sarcasm

responding to OP in kind

but you can alert if it makes you feel better

[redqueen]

54. "In kind"? Heh... gave yourself away a little there, dintcha?

No, it doesn't make me feel good to alert on people who should've more clearly indicated they were kidding... IF they were kidding.

Which is why I asked.

[leftofthedial]

94. WAAAAAAAAAAA!

redqueen doesn't think I'm a nice guy!

[Misunderestimator]

102. You are beingjust a tad combative...

and a little confusing.... in her defense. I'm not sure I'm understanding your position here either.

[leftofthedial]

112. I guess I better pick a clearer position then

and quit not being a nice guy.

So far, in this thread, most of the women (or the posters who appear to be women):

1. Have aggressively rejected the blatant whiner (or the poster who appears to be a whiner).

2. Have rallied around and virtually cuddled with the "nice guys" (or the posters who appear to be nice guys).

3. Have threatened to alert on the poster who appears not to be a nice guy.

I guess I'm just testing the hypothesis stated in the OP.

Oh, and I'm also an inveterate and unrepentant smartass, who is confident, has an amazing sense of humor AND really is a nice guy (but not TOO nice).

[redqueen]

116. Haha!

You ass.

[leftofthedial]

119. I think you have me confused with matcom

[redqueen]

132. So... you're *not* being an ass then?

Oops!



Sorry!

[Misunderestimator]

118. Hmm... still not very clear...

in another thread you indicate, I think, that you will be getting divorced shortly after 27 years of marriage. I understand that you might be bitter toward women.

But...I'm not sure what you mean by testing the OP's hypothesis. It's clear that he is NOT actually the nice guy that he claims (evidenced by numerous posts that expose this lie), so then I assume you mean you are testing others' reactions to you, you being a nice guy, or so you claim.

Is that about it?

How's the experiment going?

And ... what's with the "virtually cuddled" and "the posters who appear to be women" and "the poster who appears to be a whiner." Either you are posing as some mad sociologist participating in an experiment about women's horrid treatment of "nice guys" or you are being blatantly and obtrusively condescending.

I think you are just angry though... right?

[leftofthedial]

133. I think you are taking all I'm saying way more seriously than

it was ever intended.

I thought Maddy McCall's original idea that mingled "nice guys" and whiners and women's choices in partners was a fairly juicy melange of stereotypes, totally intellectually inaccessible primate mating instincts, humor and local online flirtation. I liked the way she swatted away so much conventionality so efficiently.

Funnily, I think the posters here conveniently played out the roles identified in the OP and have pretty much confirmed what we all hope is the truth. Good people like other good people.

So, I guess "posing as some mad sociologist" comes closest to the truth. It was not planned out though. It just sort of happened due to redqueen's initial response to my original satirical post. I sincerely never meant to be condescending in the slightest. I'm far too lowly a creature to condescend to anyone--especially the incredible women of DU.

[Misunderestimator]

139. Now that's the ticket! That post was very clear.

Thanks! It's all good... you mad scientologist... er sociologist you!

[leftofthedial]

148. You're, er, Cruise-ing . . .

[redqueen]

110. Did I say that?

Where did I say that?

I don't know what kind of guy you are... but I'm getting an idea... yep.

[leftofthedial]

115. you didn't say that

It's clear from your response to Reply #94 that you do not like whiners who are not nice guys.

("Waaaaaa" = whiner; putting words in your mouth = not nice)

I think we are making progress... yep.

[Misunderestimator]

121. Knock knock

Who's there?

[redqueen]

123. heheheheh

[StopTheMorans]

41. the top two traits that women consistently identify as "attractive" are

confidence and a good sense of humor, there's no reason that "nice" people can't be confident and/or have a sense of humor too. the whole "nice" thing is an excuse for self-pity and also conveniently dismisses the need (or choice) for self-improvement. sure, women don't like guys who whine all the time about how "nice" they are and how "good" they'll be to women; noone finds self-pity attractive. and just because you whine all the time doesn't make you a "nice guy", it just makes you a whiner...

[Maddy McCall]

83. Will you marry me?

You get it.

[StopTheMorans]

97. well, if i get it

[leftofthedial]

87. yeah, but when they are responding to surveys,

they lie, lie, lie.

That's not how "they" behave.

Wait. Are we talking about women or men or whiners or nice people?

It doesn't matter. They still lie.

[StopTheMorans]

99. i'm confident, and i have a sense of humor. i've never had a problem

with women, except when one of those traits have left me for some reason. it's been fairly apparent in my life, maybe i need to get laid less to really empathize and hate women more and think that they lie

[leftofthedial]

103. pssst.

EVERYONE lies on surveys.

confident and sense of humor, eh?

I highly recommend getting laid less.

[StopTheMorans]

108. no thanks, i'm bitter enough as it is

and i quite enjoy my current level of amorous activity...

[leftofthedial]

113. right on

[Misunderestimator]

42. LOL

[StopTheMorans]

43. .

[redqueen]

55. Bloody hell...

Anyone got a link to the original thread?

[Taverner]

56. You don't want to be the guy in the PG rated movie

That everyone's rooting for...you wanna be the guy in the R rated movie, that nobody's too sure about, but we all wanna see what he does next.

[tomreedtoon]

69. The guy in the R rated movie?

Wait a minute...you're talking about Freddy Krueger? Hannibal Lector? The "Captain Spaulding" from that Rob Zombie movie? Women want to date serial killers? Yeah, that makes sense to me.

[JohnKleeb]

60. Whoa what inspired this

and niceness is all relative.

[WCGreen]

65. I have always been a nice guy...

But listen. And I haven't changed....

BUT

If you have romantic inclinations toward a woman,

<<<<<<<<TELL HER FROM THE START>>>>>>>

If you start out as the nice guy, friends type, that is what you will remain.....

Don't wait for the revelation to hit her...SPEAK UP !!!!!!!!!

[tomreedtoon]

226. Wrong, wrong, WRONG! You NEVER tell a woman you want her!

The second you tell a woman you want her, or even that you'd like to date her, you have LOST. You are now a Horny Jerk and will not even get the gracious kiss-off from the woman. She'll cap you where you stand with the Beretta in her purse.

Love and affection are supposed to occur naturally. That is what being a Nice Guy is all about. If they don't, if you have to play a Bastard to get a woman's affection, you have lost.

[redqueen]

236. You are so very, very wrong. n/t

[Wetzelbill]

245. you think a guy should let a woman know right off?

I never really know about that one. I enjoy my friendships with women. I would hate to let a woman know I was interested in her right off and if she wasn't interested have that kill everything. Even a potential friendship. Maybe, I'm just too risk averse though.

[redqueen]

248. Women are not the same. It will vary, depending on the individual.

I don't like playing games, so I like to know up front.

Other people like the game, so maybe they'd be different.

Why the FUCK do men want to act like all women should be the same?

This is making me sad.

[Wetzelbill]

260. I meant in general

Of course women all aren't the same. Don't be sad! I love women for so many different reasons, it's unbelievable. I think each woman has her own charm, own attraction and own unique allure. Like on DU, there are so many intelligent, eclectic women who are all interesting and attractive for myriad reasons. Not the least of which is you.

I was asking that question more or less out of my own insecurities though. So thank you for your answer.

[WCGreen]

345. Sorry but I think I am right....

If you go "out" or you invite her to your apartment for dinner and nothing happens, chance are it will not blossom into something down the road...

My suggestion, I have always had it good with the ladies, Tell them you are attracted to them, that you hope a relationship may develope but you're willing to let her contimplate on it for a while...

Pining aroung hope she gets the signals you are sending....

been ther done that....

Just so you know, the longer you wait before taking about your feelings, the worse the let down becomes and, to top it off, you'll probably loose a firend to boot......

[Taverner]

70. Maddy you speaketh the truth

Now let's down a few Wee Drams and get out of here...it's soooo NOT money

[LaurenG]

84. I do I married nice guy

I wouldn't have it any other way. Nice guy's only need apply.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

91. This topic would come up in one of my college classes

From time to time.

(It was a creative writing class, so the forum was pretty wide open.)

Anyway, my professor, an incredibly wise man, finally interjected and posited that there isn't really any such thing as a "nice guy". Meaning, of course, that all these "nice guys" who are complaining and whining all basically have ulterior motives for pining after these women. (I think you can guess what those might be). And, as a result, this whole "nice guy" phenomenon doesn't really even exist.

Women (and men) can smell an ulterior motive a mile away.

[redqueen]

128. A very wise professor indeed!

[tomreedtoon]

228. So, all men are bastards, right? Violent pieces of scum?

Yep, I'm sure that's a statement that Red Queen would agree with.

Only it's not true. There are Nice Guys. People like she, and you, simply believe the absolute worst about humankind. I don't think highly of humankind, but compared to you two, I'm Doris Freaking Day.

[redqueen]

238. That was a statement from his MALE professor.

You need to check yourself. SERIOUSLY.

[tomreedtoon]

246. The sex of the professor doesn't matter.

There are an awful lot of pretentious people, y'know, Red Queen. Especially on college campuses. Saying that "all men are Bastards" may be his self-justification for being one.

Didn't you ever see the Hitchcock movie "Rope"? It's fascinating what justifications sophisticated, intellectual people can have for such things as murder. Or treating women like doormats.

[redqueen]

249. Did the guy say "all men are bastards"?

Why are you being so melodramatic? It keeps you from having an honest conversation, you know.

Let's just discuss what was ACTUALLY SAID, why don't we? Or is that not part of your agenda?

[Misunderestimator]

256. LOL! Redqueen is one of the most reasonable and compassionate

posters here who bends over backwards to give people the benefit of the doubt.

You're Doris Day, right.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

326. "Violent"? "Scum"?

I certainly didn't imply that.

What was implied was that the supposed "nice guys" want to get laid as much as anyone else. Which generally means that they aren't as "nice" as they like to purport themselves to be.

This duplicity in turn demonstrates a certain uncomfortableness or shame regarding their true feelings. And that's usually a major turn off for most people.

As I said, most folks can spot an ulterior motive a mile away. Be honest with yourself and others. Be forthright, yet polite.

Btw, thanks for making the snap judgement on me based on one post.

Oh yes, and for bashing Red Queen. You must be one of those really Nice Guys I keep hearing about.

[sakabatou]

92. Damn

There goes my chances of... well, anything.

[RevolutionaryActs]

109. Maddy...

You're so delicate at times.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

130. Why can't many women admit they don't?

[StopTheMorans]

135. and thus the flamewar did continue

SNAP!

[Crazy Guggenheim]

137. This is better than the movies.

How do you like your popcorn? I like mine with salt and butter.

[redqueen]

138. .

[Misunderestimator]

142. Ok, I'll admit it... I do NOT FALL IN LOVE WITH NICE GUYS... There.

Of course... I don't fall in love with any guys so... maybe it doesn't count.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

146. Hey .......... What are you saying ......

[Misunderestimator]

149. Well, it depends... are you a nice guy? If you are, then...

piss off.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

153. Oh honey, my wife thinks I am. So come here and get some love.

She don't mind.

[tomreedtoon]

223. The first honest woman so far in this forum!

"Well, it depends... are you a nice guy? If you are, then...piss off."

Now, most women would say, "Gee, that's nice, now would you take out the garbage for my boyfriend?" Or "You're sweet. Can I borrow your car to transport heroin to the schoolyard?" Or "You're swell. Can you hold still while I deposit this knife in your back?"

But you, Misunderestimator, are the first honest woman here tonight. That compells me to ask: did women really like "Titanic" because it offered them the opportunity to see a nice guy die of hypothermia in frigid water while the dumbass woman watched, and snickered into her handkerchief?

[Misunderestimator]

231. I'm the first honest woman here, because I was sarcastic?!?

Man! Your insults never cease.

Oh... and piss off too!

[Susang]

233. How dare you say piss off to the Nice Guy!

Bad Misunderestimator, bad, bad, bad! You are naughty and must be punished.

[Misunderestimator]

234. Thank you! May I have another?

[Susang]

235. I don't know

Does this mean that you don't like Nice Girls either?

[Misunderestimator]

240. Well... since I'm a woman... I guess I don't...

Head exploding now...

[Susang]

274. Mind if I join you?

[redqueen]

241. You hate women.

Admit it.

[Sugar Smack]

269. How literal-minded of you.

That was really impressive.

Maybe you should hone your listening skills a bit more, eh, Sparky? Have you actually heard the responses:

Now, most women would say, "Gee, that's nice, now would you take out the garbage for my boyfriend?" Or "You're sweet. Can I borrow your car to transport heroin to the schoolyard?" Or "You're swell. Can you hold still while I deposit this knife in your back?"

If you're fourteen, I would understand a little and applaud you for being an active participant on a political board, and for being a Democrat. If you're fourteen, you have a sharp vocabulary. I would say give it a few years, because experience and exposure to different things may change you for the better. Junior high isn't easy for anyone, so hang in there.

[Misunderestimator]

283. *leaning helplessly on Sugar Smack 's shoulder*

[Sugar Smack]

294. Countess, I appreciate your appreciation.

And if you're REALLY, REALLY an honest woman like the wee bairn sayeth, I'll go ahead and bask. *curtseying*

[tigereye]

303. dude, you need help!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

131. Just about every time this whine comes up

I have challenged the whining guys to ask a platonic female friend to evaluate their attractiveness to women.

I'm not asking them to do anything that I myself have not done. I once received a frank evaluation (requested) from the husband of a friend. No woman could have ever told me what kinds of vibes I was giving off. Further help came from a method acting class, which makes you VERY self-aware.

As far as I know, however, not a single one of the self-pitying whiners has had the guts to do this.

I bet they know deep-down that they come across as desperate, demanding, and manipulative.

[cheeseit]

155. being a whiner and being a genuinely nice person aren't mutually exclusive

I say that as someone who doesn't really think he's either. It's totally wrong to blame the other sex (or your own, if that floats your boat) for your own romantic misfortune, absolutely no doubt about that. And when men blame women in this way it's often rooted in very ancient and very ugly stereotypes of women as feckless and venal. Having said that no one will do themselves any favours by lingering on all the faults in their personality to succeed in this department. You'll either end up as a nervous wreck or a total phony. Genuinely changing your personality may make you more succesful, but genuine change has to be born out of a desire to better yourself because you want to do it- trying to change just to impress others is just a charade that'll fall away in the end. Everybody has faults, and however much they may flatter themselves (and there's plenty of this self-flattery in these threads!) those in relationships have just as many as those outside of them. People just have to hang tough, put themselves in positions where they're actually likely to meet people, and try and enjoy the perks of single life until they find someone who sees enough in the good aspects (or maybe even bad aspects) of their personality to want to form a relationship.

[no name no slogan]

156. I don't think I'm a whiner

I just got a lot on my plate.

Oh who am I kidding. I'm not just a whiner I'm also nuts!

[Sugar Smack]

160. Try this:

Throw me over your shoulder like I'm a burlap sack of taters. Grunt a little as you carry me into my room, promising you'll punish me like I've never been punished before, tell me how crazy you are and how many meds you've taken today, then THROW me down on the bed.

No, really. Do it.

[no name no slogan]

165. !!!!!!

Hmmm, somehow my schedule has cleared up for the day. I'll be there shortly----!!!!

[Trigger Hippie]

178. Oooh, SS,

that's so sexy. I wanna get in on this...

[Sugar Smack]

184. Ooh, yes! The more, the merrier,

the madder the smackdown.

Oh, yes, and no niceness either!!

[Trigger Hippie]

188. Let's be baaaad

veeeerrrryyyy baaaadd.

[redqueen]

243. But... you're a nice guy... and for that, I like and appreciate you.

[Sugar Smack]

157. I know of this one sensitive "nice guy"

who turned out to be a teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeny bit of a stalker.

[no name no slogan]

158. hey!

You're not talking about me are you?

[WCGreen]

163. You're kidding.......

[progmom]

167. yeah...and the nice guy stuff....

only part of the time.

[Sugar Smack]

174. He preferred to demand HIS gratitude up front.

And if he didn't get it he stamped his little foot.

[no name no slogan]

177. What a selfish weenus

Speaking as a guy, I've never quite understood the "I got mine, forget you" thing. I thought the entire point was mutual enjoyment? If it wasn't, then our arms would not be the length they are.

Just my $.02 of course. Your mileage may vary.

[JackDragna]

159. There's a side of this argument nobody talks about.

I'm a man and have many friends who, for lack of a better term, are about as skilled at impressing women as a chinchilla would be at repairing the Hubble telescope. Many of them complain about not getting dates and blame the whole ordeal on the "nice guy" syndrome. Almost universally, my friends and others I've noticed who are these sexless nice guys share a common suite of traits:

- They are not physically attractive. Many of them are overweight and clearly out of shape. This in itself could be overcome, except that these men often do not do things to improve their appearance they could change on a day-to-day basis. For example, they don't wear decent clothes, they don't keep themselves clean or shaven and don't take too much time with their hair.

- "Nice guys" usually have grating personality flaws that make them unpleasant to be around by anyone, much less women. They have a limited knowledge of small-talk related subjects, are obsessive and will correct you in the middle of conversations or any number of other character idiosyncracies. Guys, women are not obligated to take your sorry asses out if the scope of your knowledge is limited to comic books, Dungeons and Dragons and Half-Life. Learn how to talk to people who have life experiences different from yours. Women can smell a person who's a loser like this a million miles away.

- Finally, the biggest problem with nice guys is that they just don't ask women out. I see time and again where friends of mine talk to a relatively attractive woman while at some public place, say a bar or restaurant or some such, and don't even bother to ask her for her phone number. When I ask why they didn't even try, it's always some lame excuse like "well, I could tell she wouldn't date me" or some other crap. I'm not the most handsome man in the world, but I've never had problems finding dates because I'm not afraid to ask women out. I get shot down 99 times out of 100, but if you ask often enough, you get women who are charmed you've asked them out. Believe it or not, guys (and I think the women here will back me on this), you would be utterly shocked at how many decent women out there do NOT have decent guys ask them out. Jerks and morons pester them all the time, but the decent men of the world are just too timid.

In some ways, I think all of this stems from what has now become a very sedentary, asocial culture. People watch TV and play video games instead of going out in public. They therefore do not develop the skills or self-confidence necessary to interact with others. The "nice guys" of the world therefore do not learn how to impress women or even make casual conversation. My best advice for lovelorn men is to force yourself to go out. Join social groups, go to clubs, do anything to get out of the house. Making the initial effort is 90% of successful dating.

[WCGreen]

171. Here Here....

I'm not the best looking guy in the world but let me tell you, I never had a problem dating.. Cause I would ask and they would either say yes or no......

[Lydia Leftcoast]

179. Listen to Jack Dragna, fellows!

He speaks the truth!

By the way, I've known some men in my life who have always had women flocking around them, whether they're available or not.

None of them has been conventionally handsome. In fact, you might rightfully describe some of them as funny-looking.

Here's what they have in common:

1) They're true individuals and like themselves that way.

2) They genuinely like women as complete persons.

3) They have warm, open personalities.

4) They're interesting to talk to and sometimes even funny.

None of them have ever stayed single very long.

[redqueen]

247. 2) They genuinely like women as complete persons.

Is this rare or is it just me?

[tomreedtoon]

250. This is "flocking," all right.

"1) They're true individuals and like themselves that way.

2) They genuinely like women as complete persons.

3) They have warm, open personalities.

4) They're interesting to talk to and sometimes even funny.

None of them have ever stayed single very long."

Ms. Leftcoast, that is Nice Guy Behavior. And it doesn't work. Now do you see why Red Queen is the only honest woman in this forum?

[redqueen]

252. You're wrong.

AND you're confusing me with Misunderestimator.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

268. And every single post you've made has proved that

you do NOT genuinely like women as complete persons, only as objects who somehow "owe" you love because you've pasted a "nice" doormat personality over your anger.

[tomreedtoon]

290. You're mistaking Nice Guys for Bastards.

Bastards are the ones who grab you by the wrist and fling you on the floor.

Nice Guys take care of your cats while you're away, pay to get your car fixed, and stand by silently, hoping that their kindness will be repaid.

But it won't be.

I would understand if half, or three quarters, of women would treat us Nice Guys like the cat residue we take out to the curb for them, but it's more like 99.997 percent of women.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

296. And THAT is your biggest logical flaw

"Nice Guys take care of your cats while you're away, pay to get your car fixed, and stand by silently, hoping that their kindness will be repaid."

Your underlying assumption is that someone you can't even establish a mutual LIKE relationship with OWES you love because you took care of her cat.

Once and for all, nobody OWES anybody else love. You can't EARN it. You simply have to live your life to the fullest and be ready when somebody freely GIVES it to you, and even then, you may find yourself refusing because you know deep-down that she's not right for you.

That's how it works. There ain't no other way.

And I'm through with this topic, because it's like talking to a brick wall.

[MN ChimpH8R]

186. You touch on a couple of subtextual issues here

The lack of small talk skills is something I am very aware of.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome a few months ago. Aspies have NO small talk skills at all because we have no social intuition. We talk to exchange information, usually about our limited set of obsessive interests. Gossip, jabbering about pop-culture phenomena, etc, is a waste of time to us. We don't care about it and see no reason to talk about things we view as shallow or foolish. The back-and-forth of flirting is as alien to us as intelligence is to His Chimperial Majesty. We DON'T get it and we CAN'T do it. Dealing with an aspie is like dealing with Data from STNG.

The best analogy I've heard for Aspies in greater society is that most people are dogs - social by nature, terribly concerned with getting along and fitting in with the "pack" and determining their status therein. Dogs care about what other dogs think of them. Aspies, however, are cats. Cats couldn't care less what other cats think of them, pursue their own interests and go their own way. Unfortunately, dogs run society and make all of the rules. It's hard to be a cat in such circumstances. We can't and don't understand "dog" thinking but have to live in a social world governed totally by "dog" norms. It is a very hard go.

Another issue is the conditioning that comes with a constant stream of rejection. Failure breeds failure. Combining a history of rejection with Aspie or Aspie-like traits and one's chances of ever finding someone are somewhere between slim and none.

[WCGreen]

225. Go to a support group and meet women who have

Asperger's Syndrome.

Dude, that's what I would do if I was in your situation.....

[tomreedtoon]

259. So, they finally got around to calling it a "syndrome," huh?

It is as common as the common cold. The fact is that these social intuitive skills are learned at a very early age. You can't make up for it with 'charm classes' or anything else.

But it's not going to get any sympathy from women - even from Red Queen, the only honest woman in the forum. She'll call you a Nice Guy and tell you to piss off, too. Sorry, MN, but that's the breaks.

[redqueen]

263. Dude that's Misunderestimator you're talking about!

I didn't tell anyone to piss off!

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGH!

[Misunderestimator]

320. LOL... Next thing you know... you'll be gay.

[MN ChimpH8R]

281. To a degree, yes

With Asperger's you're born with different brain wiring and you don't intuitively learn things that come naturally to neurotypicals. Everything gets processed through the logic centers and there is an impaired degree of social intuition. I have virtually none. I can learn a script, but that's about it. I cannot respond to new social situations so I just shut down and go away. They are just too stressful.

I know, intellectually, that people send nonverbal signals all the time, and that I probably do too, but I have no program for understanding what they mean or how to respond to them. I am stuck with my social awkwardness for the rest of my life and there is nothing I can do about. If a kid is diagnosed AS, intervention can produce good results, but I didn't get a diag until I was in my mid-40s.

Not being able to go with the flow is the kiss of death in chatty, flirting type of situations, and for me, it would be easier to stand on my head and stack marbles. I cannot send or receive "hints" of interest; I can only say what I know and I have a tendency to take people very literally. I've been told by my therapist that most people tend to make an assessment of a new person within minutes of meeting them, and I have no skills to make a favorable impression.

You can learn to fake it, and I can in certain situations, but I simply cannot walk up to a stranger and introduce myself. If said stranger is a woman I find attractive, I will head for the other side of the room or do anything to avoid her. I cannot really dissemble or "just chat." I have to talk about somthing specific.

And that's why in my 40+ years I have had one drunken hookup (early 1980s when I got dragged rather unwillingly along on a friend's double date) and have never had a real date, girlfriend or relationship. I can't play by the "dog" world's rules so I am disqualified from the game.

The killer is that my (female) therapist says I would make some woman a terrific boyfriend because I am considerate, laid back, bright and funny. But I have none of the social skills necessary to ever get over the first hurdles and to that point. My extreme shyness is often mistaken for arrogance and coldness. That isn't it at all, but I am terrified of looking like a fool because of my lack of social intuition. I wear nice clothes, pay attention to personal grooming and cleanliness, etc, but that doesn't matter.

You're right, Tom, them's the breaks, and I don't expect anything to change soon unless I follow my therapist's advice and look overseas.

[tomreedtoon]

292. Excuse me, what's overseas?

If you're saying "you need to find a woman from another country to relate to," because they don't have the Hate Plague that infects American women...well, it's possible, but it's a drastic step. I would have to see some foreign women in their natural environment to see if it was possible.

[MN ChimpH8R]

314. I am NOT

saying or even implying anything about the "hate plague" you speak of. Some women have it, most do not. For me, that is not the issue.

I don't want to relive my last year of therapy on DU, but my therapist says that socially and emotionally I am in my very early 20s (tho I am intellectually and chronologically in my mid 40s) and that because of this it would probably be a disaster for me to try and date anyone my own age, and that I should look for someone quite a bit younger. I tend to agree with her. I have no baggage and have no idea how to deal with that of other people.

There are a very few reputable international introduction services out there. The good ones are small and specialized, with people (often family) on the ground in the country/ies they work in. They are selective, and weed out the male freaks and the female gold diggers and will bounce your ass out if you try to pull a fast one.

The usual process is letter introduction, progressing to phone calls, and eventually meeting the young woman and her family in their country. If something sparks, it does. The important thing to me is that the process is mediated - I don't have to make a fabulous impression - I can write something down, have it translated if necessary, and go slowly in channels of communication with which I am comfortable.

I haven't proceeded yet because I am still getting back on my feet after a prolonged period of unemployment last year, but I have done a ton of research. I've discussed it at length with my therapist and she thinks it's a great idea.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

334. I have my doubts about the whole international thing

Has your therapist ever lived in a foreign country?

It would be disastrous in Japan, for example, because even though there are a lot of terribly shy people, the whole culture is based on sussing out someone else's feelings. The typical American comes across as awkwardly in Japan as an Asperger's syndrome person does here because Americans expect things to be stated overtly instead of just hinted at.

Whichever country you decided on, you would run the risk of getting a woman who just wanted a green card and had no intention of staying with you any longer than necessary.

I would suggest trying to find an Asperger's woman. At my last teaching job, I knew a couple who must have had Asperger's syndrome, because they both had that same intensity and indifference to social cues. At the time, we commented, "The only two people who could stand each other found each other."

Is there any possibility that you could learn a few social cues by rote? You're obviously intelligent, so a few rules like, "If the other person starts looking around the room when you're talking to them, you've stayed on the topic too long" might be helpful.

Also, being shy and awkward is not as much of a handicap as you think it is. Get to know women in groups first, not dating situations. If you feel uncomfortably attracted, don't run away, just explain why you're socially awkward. It's something to talk about!

[spooky3]

221. great post!

[tomreedtoon]

237. Rebutting JackDragna's points one by one...

- Yes, many of us are fat, or thin. People are supposed to like us for our PERSONALITIES, Jack. That's what women claim. The externals are something only flaky, surface-obscessed people should notice. Or are you admitting that women are as prejudiced as Klansmen?

- Yes, young lonely guys seek affection from wherever they can get it, and if we can't get it from human beings, we get it from rolling d20's or reading Brian Michael Bendis's "Powers." But many of us are willing to express our intelligence in other ways, and many of us have been told to listen politely in conversations. Only, women don't want to talk to us. They want to talk to the Klansmen mentioned in the previous paragraph.

- And we're not supposed to ask women out. It is RUDE to demand attention from a woman. To do so makes you a capital-B Bastard. By doing so, you are demanding that the woman submit to your demands, and that she is worthless except when obeying your commands. Or as they say in Florida, "get in the back of the pickup, bitch."

You are supposed to EARN attention from a woman, who is supposed to give it to you IF you are deemed worthy. Nice guys are not supposed to demand ANYTHING.

And yes, I could play the Bastard, but I refuse to do so. I refuse to treat women like a videogame joystick, even though that's what they seem to want. If that's what I wanted, I'd use...a videogame joystick.

In other words, I'll treat women the way they SAY they want to be treated, not the way they REALLY want to be treated. That makes me a Nice Guy.

P.S. Social groups are a lie, going to clubs makes you a drunk or an addict, and it doesn't matter how far you get from your house, women still hate Nice Guys.

[redqueen]

257. .

- Yes, many of us are fat, or thin. People are supposed to like us for our PERSONALITIES, Jack. That's what women claim. The externals are something only flaky, surface-obscessed people should notice. Or are you admitting that women are as prejudiced as Klansmen?

So, are you telling us that you don't care what a woman looks like? Everyone is attracted initially based on appearance, if they're physically in the same place. If they meet online or via personals, that's a different story. However, I hope you're not so dishonest with yourself as to pretend that men are any different than Jack has described women to be.

- Yes, young lonely guys seek affection from wherever they can get it, and if we can't get it from human beings, we get it from rolling d20's or reading Brian Michael Bendis's "Powers." But many of us are willing to express our intelligence in other ways, and many of us have been told to listen politely in conversations. Only, women don't want to talk to us. They want to talk to the Klansmen mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Obviously you're wrong. You can't have a conversation with a neanderthal.

- And we're not supposed to ask women out. It is RUDE to demand attention from a woman. To do so makes you a capital-B Bastard. By doing so, you are demanding that the woman submit to your demands, and that she is worthless except when obeying your commands. Or as they say in Florida, "get in the back of the pickup, bitch."

What on EARTH are you smoking?! On THIS planet, men are expected to do all the asking out! Usually when a female makes the first move, she's labeled "pushy", "too forward" or whatever...

You are supposed to EARN attention from a woman, who is supposed to give it to you IF you are deemed worthy. Nice guys are not supposed to demand ANYTHING.

Ridiculous... utterly ridiculous. You get attention by being ENGAGING or INTERESTING. You don't have to demand or earn it... it flows naturally from being a TRULY nice person.

And yes, I could play the Bastard, but I refuse to do so. I refuse to treat women like a videogame joystick, even though that's what they seem to want. If that's what I wanted, I'd use...a videogame joystick.

Translation into bitterwomanspeak: "And yes, I could get surgery and become some stripper barbie clone, but I refuse to do so. I refsue to become some cookiecutter image of what a woman should look like, even though that's what men seem to want. If a man wants a stripper barbie, he can go buy one."

See how utterly ridiculous that is? You are horribly, terribly bitter, and it's only hurting YOU.

In other words, I'll treat women the way they SAY they want to be treated, not the way they REALLY want to be treated. That makes me a Nice Guy.

You should probably stop judging all women as some homogenous mass. Women and men are individuals, and deserve to be treated as such. The way you're talking on this thread, it's really not surprising that no women return your "kindness".

P.S. Social groups are a lie, going to clubs makes you a drunk or an addict, and it doesn't matter how far you get from your house, women still hate Nice Guys.

Social groups are a lie?

[tomreedtoon]

272. Red Queen, I'm not bitter. Just honest. Like you.

You thought you were being sarcastic, but you were being honest. It is far better to look at the Hell of social relations straight in its ugly, flaming face than to close your eyes and whistle.

By the way, I'm not being a troll. If I was to face you in person - not that you'd ever look at me, but I'd be willing to face you - I would tell you the same thing.

And yes, I don't care what the woman looks like. If she were hideous, she might not be repulsed by my looks. I would be able to recognize the decent soul inside her. Of course, she couldn't do the same, since women don't like Nice Guys, but don't go thinking that everyone is surface-obscessed and flighty.

I do believe there are women who like Nice Guys. It's just that there are only three of them on the North American Continent, they aren't easily identifiable, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a hopeless quest to find them. Life is what happens while fools are looking for relationships.

P.S. There ARE women who say that "Stripper Barbie" business you mentioned. Not every woman feels the need to mutilate her body for effect. Shows what you know about your own gender. You're still honest, you're just not very experienced with real life.

[redqueen]

280. Oh, no you're not.

You thought you were being sarcastic, but you were being honest. It is far better to look at the Hell of social relations straight in its ugly, flaming face than to close your eyes and whistle.

Once again, that's SOMEONE ELSE you're talking about... Good God!

By the way, I'm not being a troll. If I was to face you in person - not that you'd ever look at me, but I'd be willing to face you - I would tell you the same thing.

Interesting that you say that, since I didn't say jack shit about trolls. Hmmmm... protesting too much, are you?

And yes, I don't care what the woman looks like. If she were hideous, she might not be repulsed by my looks. I would be able to recognize the decent soul inside her. Of course, she couldn't do the same, since women don't like Nice Guys, but don't go thinking that everyone is surface-obscessed and flighty.

Women do like Nice Guys.

I do believe there are women who like Nice Guys. It's just that there are only three of them on the North American Continent, they aren't easily identifiable, and I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a hopeless quest to find them. Life is what happens while fools are looking for relationships.

1) You're wrong.

2) If you don't care to search for them, why the FUCK are you ranting about how women are all horrible people and liars to boot?

3) Answer to above: you're friggin bitter as chewed aspirin!

P.S. There ARE women who say that "Stripper Barbie" business you mentioned. Not every woman feels the need to mutilate her body for effect. Shows what you know about your own gender. You're still honest, you're just not very experienced with real life.

Did I say anywhere that there aren't female mirror images of you? I never said my example was from fantasyland, dude... read more carefully... I'm FULLY aware there are self-pitying, depressed, whiny people of BOTH genders... and it wouldn't surprise me if the women like that were probably just as hesitant to examine the REAL issues standing between them and a healthy, satisfying relationship.

[MN ChimpH8R]

299. Interesting point

RQ. That straight men are always expected to make the first move is something that intimidates a lot of men (including me) to death. The person being asked has all of the power, the one doing the asking has NONE. The asker is putting himself out there on the line, always with a high possibility of getting his self-esteem crushed like Wile E. Coyote under an anvil.

Women and gay guys can always wait to be approached, should they choose to do so. Straight guys must make the first move. I'd love it if more women would be more assertive.

[redqueen]

301. There are MANY things about our society that should change.

That's only ONE.

I know about this firsthand, since nobody but drunk a-holes ever make a move on me. Every relationship I've ever been in has been a result of me making the first move. I've scared off at least one guy that way, but fuck it. If he can't appreciate a taller, aggressive woman, that's his business.

If men would stop expecting women to be "ladies" in the kitchen and "whores" in the bedroom, maybe we could start acting like fucking PEOPLE.

Sorry... don't mean to snap at you personally... it's the subject that makes me angry.

[MN ChimpH8R]

319. No offense taken

[JackDragna]

273. Spare me your PC comments.

"Yes, many of us are fat, or thin. People are supposed to like us for our PERSONALITIES, Jack. That's what women claim. The externals are something only flaky, surface-obscessed people should notice. Or are you admitting that women are as prejudiced as Klansmen?"

You don't have to be a fashion plate to get a girlfriend. I never said that. It would be nice, however, if you "nice guys" could do a bit more to just make yourselves seem presentable. You live in a dream world if you expect women are not going to judge you, at least a little bit, by your physical appearance and how you keep yourself. Like it or not, physical attractiveness is part of the equation. Do YOU not consider attractiveness when considering women? If you do, it doesn't make you a bigot: it makes you human. It's not the end all and be all, nor should it be, but you should do the best you can.

"Yes, young lonely guys seek affection from wherever they can get it, and if we can't get it from human beings, we get it from rolling d20's or reading Brian Michael Bendis's "Powers." But many of us are willing to express our intelligence in other ways, and many of us have been told to listen politely in conversations. Only, women don't want to talk to us. They want to talk to the Klansmen mentioned in the previous paragraph."

Then you're going after the wrong women. If the women you go after only talk to clods, then don't talk to those women. You might need to "lower your standards" or whatever you call it. Believe me: I am not Mr. Suave or Sophisticated, but I've never had a problem dating or finding women who will talk to me.

"And we're not supposed to ask women out. It is RUDE to demand attention from a woman. To do so makes you a capital-B Bastard. By doing so, you are demanding that the woman submit to your demands, and that she is worthless except when obeying your commands. Or as they say in Florida, "get in the back of the pickup, bitch."

You are supposed to EARN attention from a woman, who is supposed to give it to you IF you are deemed worthy. Nice guys are not supposed to demand ANYTHING."

Even you saying this tells me you lack even the most basic skills necessary to deal with women. If the women you try to date treat you like that, then date other women. I guarantee you not all women are like that. If you consistently get this response, then here's some hard truth, buddy: the problem is YOU, not them. "Women" are too broad a category to be painted with such a large brush. There are vain, vapid women who are very controlling, to be sure, but there's plenty more who are decent people. In the same way, there's men who are manipulative, controlling and shallow, but there are good men out there, too.

"In other words, I'll treat women the way they SAY they want to be treated, not the way they REALLY want to be treated. That makes me a Nice Guy.

P.S. Social groups are a lie, going to clubs makes you a drunk or an addict, and it doesn't matter how far you get from your house, women still hate Nice Guys."

The problem to me seems you date the entirely wrong class of people. I'm willing to bet you have, many a time over, passed over the woman at some social gathering who was maybe too chubby, too skinny or just not pretty enough for your liking. Maybe she didn't turn your head with the right clothes or whatnot. But yet, like many a Nice Guy who pines about his state with women, he constantly goes after women who probably do want, at some level, an alpha-male jerk. Guess what you need to do? Stop going after those kind of women. As I've already been backed up on before in this post, there are plenty of good women who spend weeekend nights alone because no one has the guts to ask them out. Before you say anything about my post, honestly ask yourself this question: How often do you ask out women? If the answer is "not often," you have no reason to complain.

As for clubs turning people into drunks and social clubs being a lie..give me a break. I go out plenty and I'm no drunk. The fault lies with you, friend, and not with the world.

[bloom]

330. Send your friends to:

heartless-bitches.com. They'll straighten 'em out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[bullwinkle428]

161. This book could be very helpful for some here:

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/buythebook.php

WARNING: I don't want anyone to freak out over A-Hole O'Lielly's endorsement of this book...any rumors of him being a victim of "Nice Guy Syndrome" should have been quashed with the entire Andrea Mackris situation...

This book was actually given to me by my girlfriend several months back who just thought I needed some help in expressing myself in certain situations. It was as if the author had looked at my entire life...almost scary how spot-on some the analysis was. There are many reviews at amazon.com, but I picked this out in an effort to summarize some of the key concepts in the book:

"I am a former US Marine, a sportman and athlete, competent with tools, a John Wayne fan... a man. And yet, there has always been something wrong, mainly with my interactions with my wife and other women. This book provided insight into where I have gone wrong.

The main premise of the book (contrary to other reviews by people who obviously have not read it) is that early in our lives, "Nice Guys" did not have their needs met, and learned that other people's needs were more important than our own. They have learned to whine, minipulate, or lie in order to get their needs met. They have developed secret and dysfunctional ways to deal with these needs.

This book does not teach you to be a jerk. It teaches you to be honest about your needs, and find ways to meet these needs with integrity and courage. Instead of begging your wife for sex, or going to a peep show, you simply ask her. Instead of going to a job your hate, find a way to get your dream job. You learn to think of this world as a place of abundance, and you have every right and ability to get whatever you need.

According to this book, a "Nice Guy" is dishonest, manipulative, and in some ways weak. If you apply everything in this book, you will not become an a-hole. You can still be kind, attentive, and helpful. But you will be up-front about your needs, ask others to help you meet them when necessary, and responsible for yourself. You will also avoid taking responsibility for fixing dysfunctional people, avoid playing the victim, and no longer settle for scraps when you can achieve a satisfying life for yourself."

[JackDragna]

170. A noble sentiment.

That's what being a decent fellow is all about. Being upfront and direct with women plays very well, rather than trying to be some kind of simpering sycophant.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

197. I bought that book and it changed my life!!

[redqueen]

258. What I don't like is that it seems to say women are different.

It should be called "No More Mr. or Mrs. Nice Person", because all those things apply to women as well.

*sigh*

[bullwinkle428]

340. I totally agree, in that I instantly recognized some of

the characteristics described could be applied to my girlfriend as well - maybe that's why we get along with each other as well as we do...

[KFC]

172. OK. Just don't whine when I buy you a vacuum cleaner for your birthday

Just be happy and get to cleanin.

[redqueen]

261. Jokes like this REQUIRE smileys.

Or they get alerted on, especially in threads like this.

[NashVegas]

173. I Like a Nice Guy

He has been a perfect gentleman in every way. And it's driving me up a freaking wall!

Say what you will about the "jerks," but at least they let us know up front that we're wanted.

[bloom]

331. ->

"...Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here...."

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguy...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

194. "Let the little women talk amongst themselves." ??!?!

[Crazy Guggenheim]

204. Oh excuse me darling. I know you girls want to talk about girlie

things. Didn't mean to insult you.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

208. Hey!!

[Crazy Guggenheim]

209. Did you get my PM?

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

213. Yes.... just playin'!

Thanks for clearing that up!

[lala_rawraw]

189. Define nice guy

I like nice guys vertically, but not horizontally if you get my wink wink

[Sugar Smack]

211. WELL PUT.

Love it, love it, feel the exact same way.

[lala_rawraw]

215. If only this were NOT a public

forum

[tridim]

191. What about a nice guy who has been constantly pissed off

since the 2000 sElection?

I hate that BushCo has done that to me, but it's just hard not to be constanly pissed.

[tomreedtoon]

242. There's a difference between pissed off and pissed on.

It's true that some of the less sensitive people would admit that, but maybe The Only Honest Woman in the Forum would agree.

[no name no slogan]

192. True story-- I once got dumped for being "too nice"

This was before I was married, but I once had a woman dump me because I was "too nice". One thing I remembered about the relationship was that she actually cried tears of joy the first time we were intimate, as she'd never been treated so kindly by a man.

She dumped me for a two-timing, cheating, dishonest, thieving bastard who moved in with her, quit his job and leeched off her for a couple of years. I still don't know what happened to her.

[tomreedtoon]

251. Thank you, no name no slogan! You're the SECOND honest man here!

After me, of course.

[redqueen]

267. Did she have issues? n/t

[no name no slogan]

279. She did have issues...

I think all her previous relationships had been emotionally abusive, and so therefore she was drawn to that type. We originally met when I was in one of my cynical "look at me, I hate everything" phases, and she was attracted to that. Then she got to know me and found out that I wasn't really the a-whole she thought I was.

Not that I've been a major "player" in my life, but she was the ONLY woman that has ever left me because I was "too nice". It struck me as really really odd, and is not something that has happened since then.

Musta been something in the water that year

[redqueen]

286. Wouldn't you rather be with someone without those issues?

If someone is working on those issues, fine. However women that seem to want to be abused have serious issues, and if they're not fully aware of it and working on it, then any guy complaining because she left him would be, IMO, an idiot.

[no name no slogan]

322. Exactly -- I agree with you

It hurt like hell at the time (because I caught her fooling around on me with Mr. Wonderful) and she did have problems. I am definately not complaining about it, either. In fact, a couple weeks later, I had a very good conversation with her and told her there were no hard feelings.

Of course by then I was dating my ex-wife and things were going swimmingly.

[Skittles]

198. LOL Maddy you're BRAVE!

yeah, I often think it has a lot to do with boredom, we don't want boring do we?

[Maddy McCall]

205. Nice doesn't have to be boring.

I like nice guys. But I think some guys here label themselves "nice guys" as an excuse for why women don't want to go out with them, when the problem isn't that they're "nice"--but they like to use it as an excuse instead of looking within to see what they can change.

How are you doing?

[Skittles]

266. oh I know nice doesn't necessarily mean boring

but sometimes it doez!

I'm OK, just got back from Pennsylvania; thought I'd get a break from the Texas heat but no such luck. Apparently the whole damn country is baking!

[unblock]

199. not to be agist or sexist, but:

my experience, including MANY sob stories from friends and acquaintances, is that women more or less through their twenties are looking for fun and exciting (which often can mean volatile, irresponsible, and sometimes downright dangerous) partners, and somewhere around the age of 30 they shift toward wanting responsible and sober and stable and kind (which can often mean boring) partners.

men are not altogether different in this respect, but i suppose that is a conversation for another thread.

[Inland]

206. There are no nice guys. Just guys that haven't been caught.

And if you tell my wife I said that, I'll kill you.

http://www.thefrown.com/player.php?/wearerobots/angrybo...

[StaggerLee]

210. A question for the ages

The human condition is God's way of fucking with us.

Who said that she didn't have a sense of humor?

[spooky3]

216. The answer is simple

Any person who believes that s/he's being rejected by multiple people because s/he's "too nice" or really has no clue about why, can easily get some really useful feedback. Just sit down with your best platonic friend of the opposite gender (if you're heterosexual) and ask him or her for an assessment of the situation. Tell your friend to be kind but honest with you so that you can work on self-improvement and avoid some future hurt. Ask more than one if you want to.

I'll bet many "nice guys" will be stunned to find out what's really going on. And I'll bet it has nothing to do with being nice.

[Maddy McCall]

217. Excellent post.

Like you said, both women and men can benefit from this idea.

[spooky3]

218. thanks, Maddy!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

219. My post #131 said something similar

I'm still waiting for one of the troubled young men to come back and say that he did this.

[spooky3]

220. thanks, I didn't see your post earlier, and interesting that

no one has ever told you he (or she) had taken the suggestion. That's no surprise either, is it?

I had a good friend who was one of those guys. He truly was a nice guy, most of the time, and smart and attractive, with a great sense of humor. Over the many hours that he complained about why women didn't respond to him, he never once asked me what I thought. If he had, I would have told him, as kindly as I could have:

1) Work on your hygiene.

2) Have someone show you how to clean your house. Then clean it, at least before company comes over.

3) Stop demanding to be the center of attention at parties.

1-3 may not matter to all women, but they matter to a lot of the ones he wanted, and they are a lot easier to change than a lot of other weaknesses.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

224. The hygiene is a huge issue!

True story.

Once I was in a coffee place when I spotted a man who looked as if he might be my type. He was carrying a pile of books and wearing a T-shirt whose slogan I agreed with.

I started across the room in the hope that I could begin a conversation by complimenting him on his T-shirt when I was struck by a wave of body odor.

Then I noticed that there was no one else in his whole half of the coffee shop.

I turned around and went back to my place.

I once briefly (briefly!) dated a guy who thought he was too busy to bathe. He also wore stained clothes that were falling apart (despite having a middle class income), kept a house that the health department should have condemned, and tried to dominate conversations whether anyone was listening or not and to argue over trivialities. He was smart and even funny, and kind of sweet, but I got out of that relationship fast. I actually told him some of these things when I gave him his walking papers, and it just didn't seem to compute. He just moaned and groaned about how fickle women were.

[spooky3]

230. I guess we just don't like "nice guys"--darn us!

[Schema Thing]

222. Only one problem with that

"nice guys" seem to have REALLY heavy earwax buildup or something, cuz they NEVER hear those assesments. Hey, maybe that's it, it's a "not-good-listeners" issue brought on by bad aural hygiene?

I think I have the makings of a million seller self help book here!

[tomreedtoon]

255. Nice try, spooky3, but there's a flaw.

Heterosexual Nice Guys HAVE no platonic friends of the opposite gender. We can't have love relations with women, what makes you think we can have "like" relationships?

Unless the Nice Guy has a sister - and unless that sister actually likes her brother, which is as rare as an honest woman in this forum - there is no chance of getting such advice. There ARE plenty of chances for the Nice Guy to be told how worthless he is, as Red Queen has done to me.

Most of us who have Brain One have simply given up. We remain Nice Guys, but we have resigned ourselves to a life of lonliness. It's better than hypocracy.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

264. Oh, for heaven sakes!

The mystery of your solitary state is solved once and for all.

Having "like" relationships with the opposite sex is absolutely basic part of being a full-fledged human being. If there are no women that you even like, how can you ever genuinely love (as oppose to lust after) one?

Your hatred for women shines through every post. Why should they even think of loving you?

[tomreedtoon]

278. You are only beginning your journey of knowledge, young Padawan.

You are learning that women - presumably your own gender - have different varieties of hatred of men. Many of you use us. Many of you openly hate us. Lesbians are honest enough to want to do without us.

And once and for all, I do not hate women. If I had my druthers, I'd be born one. It's just that I understand that women hate men, unless the man in question happens to hate women to the point of violence. Then they fall in love.

[Susang]

287. Seek help

Seriously. There are psychologists standing by, all you need to do is pick up the phone.

[redqueen]

288. One more time, I'm going to try to turn the tables on you...

in the ridiculous hope that it will "click" and you'll finally see how utterly insane that shit is.

"You are learning that men - presumably your own gender - have different varieties of hatred of women. Many of you use us. Many of you openly hate us. Homosexual men are honest enough to want to do without us.

And once and for all, I do not hate men. If I had my druthers, I'd be born one. It's just that I understand that men hate women, unless the woman in question happens to look like a model and treat them like dirt. Then they fall in love."

Does that make sense to you?

Do you think the world would be a better, or worse place, if EVERYONE thought the way you and the insane woman who would say what I did in the example above?

[Misunderestimator]

313. Sweetheart, I know you mean well... but this one's not salvageable.

[redqueen]

321. Yeah...

I can be pretty stubborn sometimes. OK I give up.

[redqueen]

275. Sisters who like their brothers are rare...

buddy, you got issues!

[spooky3]

277. I just returned from visiting with my brother. He's one of my

favorite people and a Deaniac.

[spooky3]

276. Tom, if you're serious, I have a simple answer for you too.

A good therapist can really help someone like you, IF you're willing to be honest with him/her and with yourself, and to do the work that will be required. That part is not simple, but it's worth the effort.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

282. I don't know--it looks to me as if he's enjoying

being a poor set-upon martyr.

[spooky3]

285. me either, but my leg is beginning to feel seriously pulled

[tomreedtoon]

284. And that's another fiction, spooky3. Psychiatry is a fraud.

Not a "fraud" in the Tom Cruise sense, but a psychiatrist is supposed to be a mirror. They do not have any answers. They sit and wait - for years, usually - to see if the patient comes up with his own answers. Then they collect their check and sneak off into the night, proclaiming success - whether the patient had problems solved or not.

Having seen three psychiatrists in my life, and having gotten absolutely nothing out of the process from any of them aside from a lighter wallet, I see no need to finance another shrink's BMW.

And, before you go there, I was completely honest with all three of them. They weren't. They pretended that their process of "magic listening" would do something.

[spooky3]

289. Tom, therapy isn't about listening. It's about identifying the REAL

source of problems (listening is a means to that end) and then figuring out solutions, and then implementing them.

Sounds as though you never got to the first part of these stages.

You also may need to try a more directive therapist, along the lines of a Dr. Phil type. Notice he has absolutely no difficulty telling you exactly what he thinks rather than "wait(ing)...to see if the patient comes up with his own answers."

Look inside yourself to see where the problems really are. That's the message people here keep trying to tell you. And if you are simply having fun arguing with them, then I go back to my "get a therapist" advice with one addition: NOW.

[Susang]

293. Nice try, Spooky

But do you really think that Tom believes he has a problem? It seems that he believes the problem lies with women and not with him and his own special brand of "niceness".

Valiant effort though.

[spooky3]

302. thanks, Susang, time for me to admit defeat! :-)

[Susang]

305. Not defeat

More like a strategic withdrawal.

[Maddy McCall]

298. Not so.

I have NUMEROUS male friends with whom I have PLATONIC relationships. How dare you project your inequities on all men.

[Susang]

300. Uh oh, you must be infected with the Hate Plague

I hear it infests all of us American women. Don't you feel diseased?

[Maddy McCall]

304. Sorry. what did you say?

I couldn't read. My best friend was groping me.

I think someone needs a little stopover at the mental health clinic.

[Susang]

306. Ah, but it's all a fraud

And it's not his fault anyway, it's ours. We drove him to his anger and bitterness because of our plague of hate!

Hate, hate hate, hate, hate, hate, hate...oops! Sorry, the plague made me say that!

[spooky3]

308. we hate him for his freedom!

[Maddy McCall]

309. Unfuckingbelievable...

the people who hang around DU these days, isn't it.

[redqueen]

311. Holy frickin shit... you sound like my husband!

[Name removed]

312. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redqueen]

315. I love you.

[Maddy McCall]

316. Hey. He's the guy who was suspended for pulling his pants down.

Can you say "Clueless"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

324. I DID notice that

n/t

[MN ChimpH8R]

317. Disagree, big

I've had numerous platonic female friends and have learned much from them and treasured their friendship as just that - friendship.

[Wetzelbill]

232. A serious answer?

A lot of it has to do with immaturity. An immature young woman will often fall for a guy who is somewhat of a jerk. Guys who don't do as well with women when they are younger are often more appreciated when they are older. It works both ways. An immature young man is more likely to go after the sexy snotty hot girl who treats people like playthings too. I've experienced both. I'm usually pretty laid back and sweet, but I'm not as successful with women when I'm like that. Whenever I have been drunk at a party and been an obnoxious ass I usually end up with someone. Part of that though, is confidence and assertiveness. Not necessarily being a "bad boy." I'm much more assertive at those times, along with being a bit of a jerk, so I'm more likely to go for a woman then to lay back and not. Part of the game is just diving in and taking a shot. Guys have no room to talk. We have bad taste and superficial tendencies too. Probably more so. Plus, we can't act innocent. Men have treated women like cattle for centuries. Being "nice" is the least we can do.

[nini]

271. I like nice guys

I've got one moving to So Cal in a week and plan on spending the rest of my life with him.

[neuvocat]

307. One thing that's often overlooked: body language.

Its all that "How you carry yourself" thing. Slooping posture puts people off because it looks like a guy is moping around too much or is highly defensive or completely lacking in confidence. Verbal communication is a HUGE factor when it comes to courtship.

[MrScorpio]

323. They like niiiiiiiice guys

They just need more I's

[R. A. Fuqua]

327. I AM a nice guy,

I make an effort to treat the women in my life like they are royalty--and that is ALL women in my life, regardless of their looks, size, age etc. I have never had any problems with this--and I have always had wonderful women in my life who care about me.

I have been rejected a few times--by women who were looking for something else--but never because I was "too nice".

To be perfectly honest--for many of the women I know, usually the "too nice" thing is used as a way of letting a guy down "gently" usually there is another reason that the lady is not interested. Some people are indeed attracted to jerks--but generally I have found that truly nice people do well with either sex.

[R. A. Fuqua]

328. my sister is looking over my shoulder--and

she has a story about the last guy who she rejected--she did not think he was nice at all--but he seemed to think that she was not interested because he was "too nice".

This guy was a lot older than her--he was weird and creepy and a little bit scary. He said really inappropriate things to her (he barely knew her and would come into her place of business and talk about the perverted sex acts that he would like to do to her). Of course he thought that he was perfectly charming--and he could not understand why she was not pleased to have somone who barely knew her behaving this way.

Finally, she had to get mean to get rid of him. He NEVER understood that he had been out of line at all--he went around telling all their mutual acquaintances that she didn't want him because he was a "nice guy". Well--she didn't like him because he ws creepy--she just was too nice to tell him that. His skull was so thick--and he was such a clueless moron that he never understood that in her opinion, he was NOT that nice.

And don't judge the "guy with the greasy hair" judging by appearances is completely wrong--he may have a kind heart or be highly intelligent. Who knows what attracted the lady to him--but he must have something going for him. Another thing--if you put lots of your emphasis on appearances, I have observed that is a surefire way to turn off a wide spectrum of women--from the most to the least attractive.

[R. A. Fuqua]

332. and another thing--

you wrote

"In other words, I'll treat women the way they SAY they want to be treated, not the way they REALLY want to be treated. That makes me a Nice Guy."

I treat everyone the way I would like to be treated. I have found that it works out quite well.

[R. A. Fuqua]

333. and another thing--

you wrote

"In other words, I'll treat women the way they SAY they want to be treated, not the way they REALLY want to be treated. That makes me a Nice Guy."

I treat everyone the way I would like to be treated. I have found that it works out quite well.

[In_The_Wind]

335. just because

~

[tomreedtoon]

336. A moment of explanation, but NOT an apology.

I did go a bit far in this thread. Part of it was my anger at my work suspension (which is over, and for which no one is being sued or fired or anything, which is fine).

But I do mean what I said. Women do NOT like nice guys. They are invested with a Hate Plague when they are told they are not often as kind as they pretend they are. And women often feel sexual attraction to the very people who would kill or hurt them. (Men do, too, but we expect to be hurt by women, so it's not a big deal.)

The one thing I noticed in these posts was massive hatred for anyone who does not define himself as a "confident," "aggressive," "take charge" male. Part of it, I'm sure, is the reaction of old high school jocks who get off on beating up on nerds, more so than anything trivial like sex. Having been the target of just such an assault in my high school (and not being able to do anything about it, since the opponent was a top-scoring jock and black) don't go telling me that "this doesn't happen."

The other part is that many of you hate the qualities you percieve in me, because you hate that those qualities exist in yourselves. You know how embarassing it is to read more than road signs, to actually go into bookstores, to collect pop-culture items and enjoy a movie like "The Incredibles." And many of you know you've been given the dirty end of the stick in sexual relations, and you want to deny that cruelty is the fundamental social nature of the universe. So you attack me. Hope it makes you feel better.

Okay, whatever. In case you didn't notice any other threads on DU, there are more things going on in the world than sex. You who waste considerable portions of your life dating, finding the right mate, trying to make a marriage work and recovering from the inevitable divorce can enjoy your little distraction. Me, I've got to work and do things with real life while you torture yourselves.

[progmom]

337. most of the anger i saw on this thread came from....

you.

[Misunderestimator]

338. Great, so you "explain" without apology, and proceed to insult again.

Just lovely. You use the word "hate" a lot in that post.... not many people here in this thread have expressed any sort of hatred for anything.

And what the hell does this mean "(and not being able to do anything about it, since the opponent was a top-scoring jock and black)"?? You weren't able to protect yourself because he was BLACK? What does THAT have to do with your ability to protect yourself. I understand the athletic part of that logic, but "black" ??

No one is attacking you. If you perceive people defending themselves against YOUR verbal attacks as attacking YOU... that's YOUR problem.

Sorry you are so incredibly bitter about relationships... but please stop blaming your failures on women.

[SarahB]

339. Have fun being bitter.

Personally, I think our connections with other human beings is what makes the difficulties in life (even those on a global, political scale) bearable. I don't just mean romantic love. I mean connections with our children, friends, and otherwise.

And just because sex in of itself is easy to obtain, it's no guarantee of receiving love, kindness, or anything else that really counts in a relationship along with it.

Women are human beings. We have suffered too and we don't like to be stereotyped.

And, yeah, I still like "nice guys". Men who are truly nice, who see me for me, not as every other woman who hurt them in the past.

[Cyndee_Lou_Who]

341. Yes, you made it all clear....

"But I do mean what I said. Women do NOT like nice guys. They are invested with a Hate Plague when they are told they are not often as kind as they pretend they are. And women often feel sexual attraction to the very people who would kill or hurt them. (Men do, too, but we expect to be hurt by women, so it's not a big deal.)"



What the fuck makes you think you're an authority on what women want and think?

[hallo]

343. hmmm

"But I do mean what I said. Women do NOT like nice guys. They are invested with a Hate Plague when they are told they are not often as kind as they pretend they are. And women often feel sexual attraction to the very people who would kill or hurt them. (Men do, too, but we expect to be hurt by women, so it's not a big deal.)"

I hate to break it to you but each women wants differnt things, as individuals, as a result some guys aren't going to be what a particular women wants at the time. It cuts both ways. Is every single women walking down the street your ideal, what you want for a mate? No of course not. Some are blond, you like brunettes. Some are neocons, let's just rule them out completely. Some you are JUST NOT ATTRACTED TO for whatever reason be it their personality, looks, etc. People are only attracted to certain other people for their own internal reasons whether they are male or female. Blaming it all on "they don't like me because I'm a nice guy" is avoiding dealing with the fact that you don't meet someone's criteria for dating. And you know what, there are girls out there who don't meet your criteria either. So deal with it.

[Misunderestimator]

344. Welcome to DU, hallo!

[hallo]

thanks for the welcome

[bridgit]

342. well, that...

plus "nice guys" are more prone to lending you access to a variety of good times & services i.e. full bene'z +vision care along w/dreamy liaison'

[Sugar Smack]

349. Haloooooooooooo, bridgie-pants!

WE LOVE YOU *BELCH* hehehehehe! *you rock smilie*

hehehwhjehehehhehehe!lord.

[bridgit]

351. it's her, my: Czarina SugarSmack...

[GinaMaria]

346. I do but

if a man tells you he's a nice guy, run the other way. This is someone who has to tell you what he is because he can't show you. His behavior will not match his words. While he will sincerely believe that he is a nice guy, he is not. He will never be convinced otherwise and the blame will always rest on you because apparently you don't like nice guys. The only person you have to convince is yourself, and convince yourself to get away far away from a man like that.

A true nice guy never has to tell you he's a nice guy. You'll see it. You will know it and you will marry him because you just can't get enough of a person like him.

[Misunderestimator]

348. You are exactly right... like a good guy doesn't have to say he's good...

he just has to demonstrate it.

(Of course, the same applies to women)

[Placebo]

347. Because the last in line is always called a bastard.

[WCGreen]

350. I have read probably about half to three quarters of the posts.

Here's what I say.

First I have had a lot of experience with girls, young women and women over the years, natural progression, not perverted musing, mind you...

I went through the I'm a nice guy, why don't they want me Waaaa crap too...

But when I discovered who I was, what was important to me, how I saw the world, I was able to, just like that, have as many relationships, girlfriends, dates whatever...

It all boils down to being true to yourself, being comfortable in your own skin....

Many people have said that confidence and a sense of humor go a long way in the attraction bit. That is how i have been successfully not only in my dealings with woman whom I wish to have a romantic touch, but with men and women that I hope to have a good solid relationship with....

And if you have seen my picture, I ain't no handsome stud...


Don't know, So much of this thread reminds me of my teenage days.....

Still, it's up to you, not the other person. believe it or not, and at the risk of sounding like the self help guy, it has to come from within....

Cause brother, or sister, if you don't like yourself, what makes you think someone else will??????????

[bluestateguy]

352. This is what I think

That some women are fine with having a complete asshole for a boyfriend, as long as he is nice to her, and only her. If he is a jerk to everyone else, then that is just not a priority.

[hallo]

355. jerks

"That some women are fine with having a complete asshole for a boyfriend, as long as he is nice to her, and only her. If he is a jerk to everyone else, then that is just not a priority."

See to me, this would not be cool. I always had a theory about watching how a man interacts with people like waiters and cashiers. Or anyone, say a potential friend or whatever. If someone is a jerk in that situation they will probably be a jerk to you sooner or later.

[Dastard Stepchild]

353. WTF is a nice guy?

I mean, I hear this term bandied about all the time. What, exactly, is a "nice guy?" Does a nice guy come with a checklist of things that all women have been tested to find as desirable qualities?

Seems to me that "nice guys" that have these so-called fabulous characteristics might also have other characteristics that would disqualify them from a person's dating pool.

Par example....
Someone that holds a nice conversation with me, laughs with me, does not get too handsy on a first date would probably fall under the category of a "nice guy" in my book. But if this gentleman also disliked cats and hated reading, I'd be very uninterested in him, no matter how nice or polite he was.

So, sure, I like me a nice guy. But that's not all I am looking for.

[hallo]

354. a thought

Reading this thread it seems the nice guy thing is more about shyness and viewing women as alien creatures. Guys, we are humans too. We give off signals you can read. We like certain guys because (and this is just my view) they are fun, interesting, not boring and cute. But - we all have different opinions on interesting and cute and whatever because you see we are individual human beings with our individual sets of values and experiences. Just like you are. You ever had a friend who married/dated a women you just couldn't see the appeal of? You probably thought, she is blah and not pretty and never has a sense of humor. But your friend admires her for some reason. We are all differnt. We just have to find someone we are compatible with that we are attracted to and enjoy their company. That is not an easy task, and maybe people get a bit bitter and want to blame it all on generalities and stereotypes about "what women like" etc.

[Maddy McCall]

356. I'm going to ask the mods to lock this thread.

Because the thread that gave birth to this thread has been locked, it no longer has context....until another "nice guy" starts bitching that women don't like "nice guys" and would rather be treated like shit by a jerk.

So, mods, please lock this so DU can go back to discussing important things like Shark Week.

[Maddy McCall]

357. And one more thing...

I had no idea, when I posted this as somewhat of a copycat of another thread, that this damned thing would gather 350 responses. I honestly thought it would sink to the archives. Must have hit some raw nerves though.

[EstimatedProphet]

358. Locking

OP's request