A major confession (not kidding)

[Mass_Liberal]

Well, all of my life, (almost 16 years) I have lived in sheltered liberal communities, growing up with everybody agreeing that we should have big government, a high minimum wage, universal healthcare, a strong public school system, legal abortions, gay marriage, and capitalism with strong restraints on it. Well, to this day, I still agree with these. However, having recently come out of my little shelter, I realize that I have let myself down. By staying in liberal enclaves, I have not learned to argue with the other side properly. And as a result, I have recently found myself in a situation where a conservative is voicing views that I know to be wrong, and yet, I have not equipped myself with the knowledge and rhetorical skills to prove it.

I feel ashamed. Getting into an honest debate where I was actually outnumbered by conservatives has been a tough experience. But I think it will be rewarding. Having come across fairly badly in an argument over many issues, education, labor rights, big gov vs. small gov, I have resolved to read and learn as much as I can, and I feel more motivated then I have in a long time. Because I must admit, I have let liberalism down by representing it badly. And I hope it doesn't happen again.

Dave

[RagingInMiami]

1. Whatever you do

Don't tell them you've been living in a "little shelter" all your life. They'll eat you alive.

[Mass_Liberal]

2. hahah

don't worry, I didn't.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Hi, there Mass_Liberal!

No reason to be or feel ashamed, I think. You have taken a HUGE step towards beating the stuffing out of any conservative by seeing your problem. A lot of people find it difficult or impossible to do just that. And you also know what to do next: read and study as much as you reasonably can so that you'll know the arguments pro and con the next time. Don't be intimidated or afraid; just get going and you'll make yourself and us proud! You're almost 16; you have lots of years to do this in. I'm not going to wish you luck, because you'll make your own luck!

:kick:

:loveya:

[Mass_Liberal]

8. .

thanks.

[Richard Steele]

4. Where did you find conservatives who engage in 'honest debate'?

All the ones I meet seem to do little more than spout recycled buzzwords and catchphrases, and their 'facts' have little in common with reality.
I envy you.

[Mass_Liberal]

7. Its kind of funny.

Do you know the game 'Diplomacy'? Its a really old board game, that is incredibly fun. There's this website called Redscape that brings people together to play Diplomacy by e-mail and this website happens to have a politics forum. Anyway the ratio of conservatives to liberals is about 3 to 1 on that forum, and they are all smarter and better read than I am. So I had a tough time of it, but it was an enlightening experience. So I'm glad I did it.

[Richard Steele]

10. I've played 'Diplomacy', but not online...

I can see how a 'Diplomacy' site would tend to attract the smartest conservatives; that ain't no game of checkers!

But that gives you a GREAT way to frame debates; if you take real-life situations and pose them as a 'Diplomacy' scenario.

Look at any of Bush's foreign policies; ANY two of them would make for a swift and CRUSHING defeat in the game!

And G*D knows that there are ALOT more than two!

Every appointment, every appearance, every statement...he consistently insults and alienates our allies at every turn!

You should challenge ANYONE to a game where they have to play out W's real-life moves!

[Mass_Liberal]

21. feel free to join the argument!

I sure as shit could use some help!

[BikeWriter]

5. They thrive on bullying and lies, Pard.

[deadparrot]

6. I come from the opposite situation.

Though my family is very liberal, my community is...not, to say the least. Very white, conservative, rich, religious. I've sat, listening to neocon rhetoric since first grade twelve years ago.

However, I am able to argue with people (which you have to do to get along in my high school). After quietly seething as they repeat RW talking points over and over and over, I started thinking up intelligent responses. When they came at me in the context of a debate, I was prepared.

My advice: know your enemy. Mostly because its fun to watch them squirm when you present a point that they can't defend. :)

[Corey_Baker08]

9. I am growing up in a Red Community

All red thats all I see, at the store, at Mcdonalds, at the pharmacy, anywhere. I am the little hint of Blue sticking out of nowhere and it sux.

I've got so tired of debaing during this last election that even now it seems like homework. But I will keep doing it to defend what I believe in-yet there are those times when if I know someone is so ignorant theyll never see my point of view ill leave it and not waste my time.

[hickman1937]

11. At your age, that's harsh.

find friends who have your core values. Welcome to the fight.

[Lone Pawn]

12. I've gone through the same thing. Here's what to do.

I had a neocon friend--an actual neoconservative mind you, not the bastardized 'neocon' meaning 'Evil Republican' you see on DU--through high school. I learned to argue from him, and he learned to argue from me.

1. Keep it up. Don't be afraid to lose, and don't be afraid to learn. Go out on limbs. See what works and what doesn't. Save threads in which you do particularly badly or particularly well, and see what made those different.

2. Listen to what they say. Understand what they say. If you can't fully understand what they're saying and why they say it, you've lost. Being a Dip player, you should already be able to do this.

3. They're not smarter than you. They're more well-read and better educated. Read. Read books. Read lots of books. And don't just read liberal books. Go and read some papers by Kristol, by Kagan, by Fukuyama. Understand their arguments. Figure out what doesn't work about them. Research. If you run into trouble, read some liberal counterpoints, or even paleocon counterpoints.

4. Don't worry about letting liberalism down. You're not going to change their minds and they're not going to change yours. You're just sparring right now. Learn to fight well, and maybe later in life you'll be able to actually help liberalism. The skills you learn 'letting liberalism down' in a forum frequented by a few dozen will let you actually defend it in a media marketplace of 300 million.

5. For God's sake, stay away from Moore and Franken's books. Don't bring up conspiracy theories. Hell, don't bring up any remotely abstract thought entirely incompatable with their framework. Either use commonly held assumptions to logically draw a different conclusion, show how their logic is invalid, or present factual data undermining the assumptions they base their argument on.

6. Speaking of which, always know how to deconstruct an argument. Know with one glance what the assumptions, factual support, logical steps, and conclusions are. Find the fallacies.

7. Concede points that you can't win. If they're trashing you on a minor detail, let them have it and then hit back on a more important part that renders the detail irrelevant. If you can't see yourself winning a point, for God's sake don't try. In your next post grant them the point that they'll soon be fighting for and then show them that point doesn't mean a thing. If you can't do that, steer the argument around the point. Don't let them stay on it. If you can't defend it, don't defend it. If you can, though, fight hard.

8. It WILL happen again. You'll lose plenty of arguments. But you'll learn, and you'll start doing better and better. Don't give up hope. And don't hate yourself if you find yourself agreeing with a minor point or two they make. That comes with intellectual maturity. Don't let it rock your world, and don't let it make you think that you should agree with everything they say ;)

[roguevalley]

13. its a learned skill, honey. keep at it. You are giving voice to the

majority. Remember that.

[xmas74]

14. Learn to debate as a true debater would.

Pick one topic-just one-and research as much as possible on the subject. Maintain a base argument and be able to support it w/ facts. Research the opposing sides arguments and most commonly used evidence. Let them start the debate. Ask questions from the person often-draw them out on the topic. Do NOT judge-just let them talk. Then offer points to refute their arguments-hopefully w/ some decent evidence (articles that you have read and can refer to, facts, statistics). Then, after everything else, offer your own conterpoints. Be ready to back them up. And, when the debate is going no where, do not be afraid to say " I see that we have reached a standstill. I will still have my same beliefs (with evidence to support them) and you will still have yours. This was a great discussion-I hope that we can do this again soon." Do not let yourself be suckered into sensationalism-keep to the facts and do not address arguments that are off topic. Be polite but firm.

Best way for someone your age to learn how to do this-join your high school debate squad. You will learn research, how to speak in public and how to debate both sides of the issue (because, no matter how you personally feel, you will have to debate the opposite side in a tournament.) By learning both sides of the issue, you can anticipate ahead to what is the most common approach your opponent will take w/ the discussion.

[hyphenate]

15. I'm quite often an emotional person

when it comes to talking about politics. I hate (totally despise) this administration, and shout it at every turn. I do have a lot of the knowledge I need to argue/debate effectively, but when it comes down to actually conversing about politics, I start blathering. My "opponent" just has to remain cool and collected, and I pretty much blow any argument, regardless of how correct I am, because I can't remain calm and confident. As a result, I "argue" in writing best, and not verbally. This too, is a bit of a problem. When I can someday go back to school, I think I will take a debate course to perhaps give me the emotional calmness I need.

[xmas74]

17. 4 years of high school debate and 2 years of college.

I have done Lincoln-Douglas, Team, CEDA and Extemp (domestic and foreign). I love to debate to this day. The best thing debate ever taught me was to pick my battles, have an informed opinion and to stay calm. That is why I tend to stay out of GD, GDP and LBN-most are too irrational over there for a proper debate.

I think, IMHO, that everyone should take at least one debate course. Great research skills, public speaking experience and you learn how to discuss both sides of the issue in a nonjudgmental way. Every good debater that you will ever meet does not go into a discussion half-cocked. They go into it w/ briefcases and Rubbermaid totes full of facts, discussion points and possible outcomes (they also always have a copy of Black's Law dictionary and a few quote books-always a quick save when needed). They can anticipate the opponents next move. It's similiar to playing chess-to be good you must concentrate, follow your opponents moves and be able to glimpse into the near future of the round.

[Ladyhawk]

16. I grew up in a "sheltered" conservative community.

Well, actually, they are the ones who have become the religious reich and the neocons. I still have the same problem you do, however. Even though I don't believe that claptrap anymore, I have a hard time debating because 1) I get too emotional and 2) I don't have a solid background in liberal politics.

Actually, after I lost my religion, I found that if I wasn't too emotional, I could make good, solid arguments. Not one of the religious reichers listened. In my opinion, it's a waste of time arguing with a fundy or a gung-ho *-supporter. You'd be better off talking to the uninitiated or the apathetic.

Let someone else debate the rabid who do evil in the name of good. I've had it with them.

[DIKB]

18. umm...

just a thought, but mayhaps you can spend a couple hours a week <shudder> at freepercentral <shudder> <shudder>

See how they think, and learn how they communicate, think of it like Jane Goodall w/ the apes. We'll understand completely if you come here SCREAMING for some intelligent conversation.

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. Sometimes actions speak louder than words, Dave.

And they can't stand that even more.

[Dastard Stepchild]

20. I've found that cons can be relentless in pushing their thoughts...

Well, at least the ones I know. They just push at every single angle until you are so exhausted that they claim a false victory, simply because you don't want to discuss it anymore.

Behind the massive expelling of hot air and the raised voices there lies little substance in what the average con is saying. If you realize and acknowledge this when talking with them, it can make the entire process less painful.

My suggestion is just to turn questions back on the lecturer. I find this most effective in dismantling any argument. Because, really, even though the cons present the information as though every little thought has been worked through to its conclusive end, the argument is usually a very weak bubble that can be popped by simply asking.. "And why do you believe that?" or " And what makes you say that?" Asking people to explain themselves, and failing to offer one's own viewpoint when dealing with a windbag, generally has one walking away the "winner," so to speak. I learned this 'lil nugget of knowledge in social work school - always be the one asking the questions because then you are the one that controls the conversation.

Sometimes, though, I just sit there and stare at the person. I don't say anything...just stare with a quasi-incredulous look on my face. :)

[YankeyMCC]

22. My experience isn't very different really

I'm much older now but I went through a similar experience.

I grew up in Massachusetts. Went to school in Mass. I just believed all the things you're talking about frankly without giving them much thought.

Then I joined the military.

Well to say the least I learned a lot. :)

I spent most of my life not giving much thought to these things but just living life led me to think about these things and ended up reinforcing them. I much more liberal than my Mother or than my Father was before he died.

So life just forced me to actually think about the things I believed in. And actually even moving back to Mass forced me to think even further about what I believed.

My advice. Don't worry about debating people. Live life, learn, keep in mind the values your parents tried to teach you but allow yourself to question and reason things out as you experience new things. That is the only way to make those values your own, and it'll make you more confident in life not just a good debater (of course it helps that too)

And of course don't let anyone bully you into their view of the world. This is what many cons, at least the radical right, want to do. The best thing you can do is be a freethinker and you're own person.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. i kind of understand

i am often just too frustrated by the sheer stupidity of conservative arguments to make cogent replies of my own

[Blue-Jay]

24. Don't let them change the subject or get you off topic.

That's a classic move of the RWers. If you state a position that they're having trouble defending, they'll toss out a strawman argument (usually beginning with "Well, Clinton...blahblahblah...") to throw you off your game. Playing the "Clinton Card" means nothing. A lot of liberals disagreed with many Clinton policies, and that has nothing to do with the failures of the Bush administration, or the policies of conservatives in general.

[RedCloud]

25. take all their legs away from them!

Start with religion and thou shalt not kill! Apply to wars against non-Christians.

Remind them of their conservative heritage:

They (cons) felt:
We should not fight the revolutionary war. Therefore, they are usurpers of the revolution.
Liberals gave them their guns, freedom of religion.
Conservatives were against Native Americans.
Against Public education. They prefer ignorance as a way to spread their message.
Against voting rights for Women and minorities.
Confuse minimum wage with maximum wage.
Fought against the 40 hour work week.
Believed a woman's place is in the home.
failed to conserve the environment.
Do not want liberal amounts of love or money. (this confuses them for they surely do).

these are starters but most conservatives will be ashamed of their background.

You may want to point out that Prescott Bush aided the Nazis and profited at Auschwitz. That the Bush family and Bin Laden run deep.
That George gave $43,000,000 to the Taliban in May 2001. later that year he wanted us to fight them!

[norml]

26. Debating skill comes with practice.

Practice online in political chat rooms, such as Yahoo Political Chat. They are the roughest, because anything can be said. You might also want to remember some of the better arguments made here.