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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:07 PM
Original message
The overhyped black quarterback
I hear how great Steve McNair is all the time but he gets the praise he deserves, but funny how the desirous media isn't overhyping rookie Byron Leftwich who had a great game yesturday and is now the 3rd best QB so far based on QB Rating.

Here are the top 5

1. Peyton Manning(Colts) 103.2
2. Steve McNair(Titans) 99.6
3. Byron Leftwich(Jaguars) 95.8
4. Brad Johnson(Buccaneers) 92.9
5. Jake Plummer(Broncos) 92.5
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. McNabb gets more praise than McNair
If the media wanted to hype a black QB it would be McNair. McNabb is hyped because he has been a consistent winner and he plays in a large market.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. McNair is also a consistent winner
McNair has been to the Super Bowl and AFC Championship game twice, plus he has been around longer then McNabb. McNabb isn't bad either who is just struggling this season but could very well turn it around, I think they get praised about the same.
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. The most overhyped guy
used to be Kordell, but I don't think that was because he was black, and he's barely even mentioned anymore.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I doubt that
Kordell Stewart was a great QB earlier in his career. He wasn't the greatest but he did win games for the Steelers, he almost lead the Steelers to a Super Bowl at one time in his career. But the only way to determine who is more hyped then the other is statistics, most of determining of who is over-hyped is usually based purely on speculation.
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Leftist78 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I really don't think
any sane person could use the words Kordell and great in the same sentence seriously. He was ok (top 15 in the league maybe) but statistically he was never "great". The nearly going to a Super Bowl thing , much like most of the success in pitt over the last 10 years comes from Cower, and his ability to get the most out of whoever his players are.

I do agree that speculation on who is over-hyped is just that, but IMHO Stewart is the most over-hyped QB in the last decade.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I guess
But when I seen Kordell play he always looked amazing, I also seen him in his days playing for Colorado. I don't think anyone said he was the greatest QB in this decade.
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Kusala Donating Member (864 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. QB rating is meaningless
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Whatever you say
YPA, TD, INT, Pass completion % all determines a QB Rating. If you think it is meaningless, fine then, that is just your opinion and it's not a fact it is meaningless.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. The rating is flawed
First of all the standards were not modified after several rule changes made the passing game easier.

Plus the rating is weighed heavily towardds QBs in a short passing offense. By using comletion percentage AND avg yd per attempt it double counts accuraccy. It would be a better formula if it used Yds per completion.

It is why someone like Terry Bradshaw never had a high passer rating when he was obvioulsy a great QB. When Joe Namath threw for 4,000 yards (in 1967!)Len Dawson had a higher passer rating because he threw shorter passes. That is absurd.


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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. YPA is a very key stat
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 03:28 PM by VermontDem2004
It just shows how explosive your offense is, if you are averaging over 7.00 it means that your offensive moves the ball wall. Byron Leftwich is almost at 9.00 which is really impressive. But is there anyone playing better then Peyton Manning at this point? If you think there is you have missed the Monday Night Game and last weeks Sunday Night Game.

Plus the percentage of passes you complete is an extremely key stat to determine how good a QB is, so is touchdowns and interceptions which is why all those factors are important in determine how good a QB is.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. YPC is a key stat
YPA just shows you have a high completion percentage. Do the math, look at the YPA and YPC for the QBs with high completion percentages versus those with lower ones.

The point of individual statistics should be that it gives on an indication on how good the player is APART FROM HIS TEAM. YPA is dependeant as much on the Offensive Coordinator as it is the QB. All it shows is that the QB complets a high percentage of passes which is also shown in the completion percentage.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Exactly
Having a high completion percentage is important. If YPA isn't as important as YPC then why isn't YPC mentioned on NFL.com, ESPN.com, CBS.Sportsline.com, Cnnsi.com, etc. Because they know people who are interested in stats to see how good a QB, YPA is a key stat to look at. If you have a high completion percentage, you are a very accurate QB.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You aren't listening
first of all those sites all get their stats from the same source and those are there primarily for fantasy geeks. Fantasy leagues use the stats that are in the ratings formula so it is a circular argument.

And the point is that completion percentage is not so important that it should be counted TWICE.

Plus the fact that the standards of the formula have not changed since Milt Plum was playing so current ratings are out of whack. It is a flawed system and is not how teams rank their own QBs.
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. But YPA
doesn't measure completion percentage though, you can still complete 70% of your passes and still have a 5.50 average. Look if you think QB rating system is flawed then ok, I don't, based on that Peyton Manning is the best QB so far statistically wise and I don't have a problem with that, I actually agree with it.
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Fight_n_back Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Do the math
QB#1
ATT COMP % Yds YPA YPC
100 60 60 500 5 8.3

QB2#2
ATT COMP % Yds YPA YPC
100 50 50 495 4.95 9.9

QB#2 is penalized TWICE under the NFL system for throwing longer passes even though his completions are more efficient.

You are going to have to take my word for it. I know much more about it than you do.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. For knowing so much, you posted ludicrous hypotheticals
Neither of these guys would survive the first cut. Any QB with 100 attempts and 500 or less yards is a scattergun reject, even in the 1930s.

I do statistical sports research for Las Vegas sportsbooks, oddsmakers and individual bettors, with spreadsheets dating to '78 and hundreds of statistical and situational formulas.. No one gives a damn about YPC, other than one guy who uses it for college games.

Very basic reason: completions equal first downs = crucial rushing attempts = field position = possession time = rested defense = likely victory.

A bum who occasionally manages a long pass but can't put anything together is a triumph of three and outs and field goal attempts, i.e. a loser. Without completions you are putting an extreme strain on the offense, forcing it to play into the teeth of third and long vs. specialized pass rush personnel and nickel packages.

YPPA measures every attempt and is the superior passing stat. I agree that the overall QB rating is flawed, too much emphasis on TD passes and INTs, and should be modified.

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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
8. McNair is rarely praised
Edited on Tue Oct-07-03 03:10 PM by Uzybone
he was the best QB in the AFC last year and is the best so far this year and only recently have people been talking about him. Stewart was hyped, but not because he was just a QB but because he was "Slash" . And he did deserve praise at least one year in 1997....he threw for 21 TDs and ran for 11.


as for over hyped....does any one remember Scott Mitchell?
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I doubt it
I heard that alot but I watch NFL Pregame shows all the time and Post game shows all the time and everytime the Titans are mentioned so is McNair, he is mentioned alot.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. The "hype Shaun King" campaign is NOT working
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VermontDem2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Who is hyping him?
:shrug:
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-07-03 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. See how bad it is
I'm just kidding. No one is hyping him but I thought he would be in the running for the starting job a few years back and then poof he's on the bench.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-03 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
20. Rookie QBs seldom defeat playoff caliber teams
That has held up, well forever. I'm very surprised Miami is only a 3 point fave over Jacksonville and Leftwich this week. Although Leftwich did defeat the Dolphins in his NFL debut during the exhibition season, a last minute TD drive that infuriated Wannstedt.
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