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biscodawg Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:16 PM
Original message
Poll question: Battle of the BAND: Joy Division vs. New Order
do you prefer pre or post Ian Curtis?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. damn, this is hard. but joy division. must be joy division.
pre or post both had a huge effect on music today, but one had a much larger effect. joy division covers are nigh ubiquitous -- makes you realize how damn good those songs were.
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biscodawg Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. yes...
but what about the crappy covers of Blue Monday and BLT?
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. I hate this poll...
Joy Division was the best band after World War II. And New Order is the best band on this planet, since Ian Curtis prefered to hang around in the kitchen somewhere.
How can you start a competition like this? You're a crazy American, who has spent his entire live thinking about the difference between Pepsi and Coca-Cola, Burger-King and McDonalds, Clinton and Bush.

BTW: Pre-Ian Curtis or Post-Ian Curtis?

I admit, in this case I'm a centrist! Wasn't there something between Pre- and Post-Ian Curtis?

Hello from Germany,
Dirk
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Best. Response. Ever.
But I still say Joy Division. ;)
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. There was, actually
The three surviving members of Joy Division DID play a few instrumental gigs before they added Gillian to the band. Mostly they played old Joy Division songs with one of the three guys taking an occassional lead vocal.

They never had an official name, but apparently some soundguy at one of the clubs asked the band where their singer was. Peter Hook characteristically replied "eh, he's hanging around the kitchen somewhere...".
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. The soundguy was the almighty...
Martin Hannett or the almighty Rob Gretton. Both of them are with Ian now.
The three guys pretty soon called themselves New Order (after rejecting the name "Kmer Rouge")
I know everything about New Order and Joy Division. Don't challenge me.
I'm a Western Work Demo.

Walk away in silence,
Dirk
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Wat_Tyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. They also rejected 'Barney and the JD's' and...
'The Witch Doctor of Zimbabwe'.
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CanuckAmok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Can't decide. Call me a "hung jury".
Actually, I'm going to say "Joy Division", because they didn't last long enough to SUCK.
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Joy Division
Definitely Joy Division.

I mean, New Order was great and all, but Bernard Sumner is a HORRIBLE lyricist and vocalist. Especially compared to the almighty Ian.

Joy Division all the way.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. Really?
I often thought that Bernhard Sumners lyrics might sound - to a certain extent - embarrassing for native speakers. At least I don't have a clue what it's like to listen to his lyrics, when english is the language you
grew up with.
But I did always love his voice. I know that he's not a good singer in a technical sense, he didn't even seem to care about hiting a note or not during the first records. But for me: this is what is so special about New Order and Joy Division, too. All the punk-bands were so "ironic", they didn't take themselves serious at all. Joy Division somehow were not "good" or technical trained musicians at all, but they took themselves deadly serious. They were 100% serious about what they were doing. And this is, what made them so different from everybody else. And this is what allowed Ian Curtis to become Ian Curtis. And - although a lot of things had changed then - this is, what I love about New Order, Bernhard's voice and the lyrics.

Dirk
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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I can see that.
Trust me: as a native English speaker, Ian Curtis was WAY WAY WAY more of a lyricist than Bernard Sumner. Bernard was more concerned with making things rhyme than saying profound things.

Ian Curtis's lyrics evoked a very dark, lonely, isolated impression. Bernard just seemed to be adding another instrument to the mix with his vocals.

Don't get me wrong, "Movement" was a great CD (although I suspect that quite a few of those lyrics were written by Ian), but after that, New Order kind of fell off lyric-wise.

And it's totally Bernard. I had the same problem with his side project, Electronic. The lyrics just come out really stupid sometimes.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I understand all of the lyrics, it's more about
Edited on Sat Jan-29-05 01:20 AM by Dirk39
feeling what's right or wrong.

As an example: True Faith (with the few lines that were censored in the published version) seems to me one of best songs ever written about addiction, any kind of addiction, drugs or anything else).

And it's somehow amusing for me: my first reaction to New Order after Movement was: Bernhard is more concerned with making things rhyme!
But to me it seemed that this attitude did just fit perfectly. It was just the vocal equivalent to the way they used electronics.
Bernhard didn't say something profound AND then did care about the Rhymes. He started Pop-Music from the opposite direction: starting with the Rhyme and then (sometimes) saying something very profound.

I want to be a machine.
?
Dirk

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livinginphotographs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. We definitely agree.
I think a good pop song is incredibly underrated.

Look at A-Ha (over in Germany, I'm sure they are given the credit they deserve, but over here, they're considered a "one-hit wonder"). A good pop song is just as much an art as anything else. And New Order could definitely pull off the good pop song. Bizarre Love Triangle is a perfect example. Hell, even Love Vigilantes, as pained and crappy as the lyrics were, managed to say something profound.

The Pixies is another successful example of this: their lyrics made no sense 99% of the time, but they were treated as just another instrument.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. Joy Division.
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Wat_Tyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. New Order. No contest.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. Joy Division
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
11. Joy Division, if not for the Cult of Ian Curtis
JD was quite good in its time, but what I really can't stand is the idol worship surrounding Ian Curtis.

Anybody who worships him needs to read his widow's book. She certainly blows a lot of the mystique off him. Ian was not some martyred soul, but was a bit of a dickhead in real life. He was mentally and emotionally abusive and extrememly self-centered at times.

Joy Division as a unit were great in their time. However, New Order are no slouches, either. To produce something like "Get Ready" after so many dormant years is really an accomplishment that many people are way too quick to overlook.


"This is why events unnerve me...."
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Wat_Tyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Curtis was also a Tory, he was genuinely right-wing.
Not that that has any bearing on the music, but it tells you something about him.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I beat you!
Who the f*ck cares about the "true" empirical live of a true artist or his widow?
Art isn't about this.
It's like saying communism doesn't work, 'cause Marx misbehaved towards his wife. And Einstein was nonsense anyway, 'cause he sucked in private life.
If it might be interesting or not to judge about the empirical individual Ian Curtis, it has nothing to do with being one of the greatest musicians and artists ever.
Like Sartre once has written in his work about Flaubert: Flaubert might have been a petty bourgeois, but not every petty bourgeois is Flaubert!

You take my place in the showdown, I observe with a pittyfull eye...
Dirk
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Like I said, I hate the Cult of Curtis
and you seem hellbent on reinforcing this!

You CANNOT separate the artist from the music. To do negates both. The music is an integral part of the artist.

As for those who "care" about the life of an artist and/or his widow, I imagine that his infant daughter probably gave more than two shits about her dad fooling around on her mum, and being an all around dickhead to her before he offed himself.

Ian Curtis was a flawed human being, like everybody. To elevate him to some godlike position because he made a few catchy tunes in rock band is the height of idiocy.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. This is nonsense!
Suppose you don't know anything about Mahler or Beethoven. All you have ever done is listening to their music.
And later, you would know some things about their private or not so private live: would that change the music or the value of the music?


Although the relation between an artist and his work might be of a different kind than the relation between a scientist and his work, it is certainly not as vulgar as the reduction of art to psychology. This might be all too common in the USA to prevent people from thinking and understanding art at all. Americans understand much too fast and they understand everything to secure themselves from understanding everything at all.
Everybody is reduced to be just another guy like me and you. And then there's nothing left to think about.

Dirk
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Floogeldy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. They would both flame each other out
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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. That's just bad, but somebody had to do it
I prefer New Order.
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flamingyouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
15. Joy Division
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
17. joy division, no contest. new order was almost disco. nt
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-28-05 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Isolation was Disco, too.
Just like the Clash with their Tribute to one of the best radical left wing group ever: CHIC! (Radio Clash).

Ian Curtis pushed them to electronic and dance beats.

And Disco and Punk had it common that they did just hate Macho Rock like Led Zeppelin and all this idiotic stadium rock of the seventies.

How does it feel?

Dirk
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. Oooohhh that's tough. Without Joy Division, no New Order
but New Order was much more upbeat and had some good melodies...

New Order, but wow...don't make 'em that hard!
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. Chicken Egg, Egg Chicken?
I don't know man, I like them both, depends on the evening which I like better...
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. There's a dead man at the cable car...
and the chicken's still dancing.

The chicken stops here!

I'm a run off groove,
Ask me nothing!
Dirk
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. well...
seeing as how new order never would've existed without joy division, i'd have to go with joy division

that's not my only reason though
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
30. Joy Division, by a mile!
Nothing against New Order, but for me, they never once produced anything as riveting. I mean, Closer for me is just one of those very few flawless albums that's so intense I can only listen to it once in a while, because it simply will not consent to be background music to ANYTHING, not even just thoughts.

(I guess maybe "Your Silent Face" from Power, Corruption, and Lies is kinda sorta close, but NO never really hit that point)
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chenGOD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
31. 808 State...:)
Well out of the two Joy Division.

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biscodawg Donating Member (913 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
32. I demand a recount!!! n/t
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NeoTraitors Donating Member (351 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-05 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Joy Division
There aren't too many bands that the 'New Wave' crowd and myself have in common. Joy Division is one.
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