What is it with Men and Rape?

[MaryH]

One report out this morning is about an 18 year old caught in the tsunami who was pulled out and raped by her rescuer.

Another is about the UN troops raping the women they are there to protect - in Darfur, I think - or the Congo. It doesn't really matter.

And a Minister abusing small boys.

It seems to be everywhere lately.

And yet the men I know don't seem that way. Maybe I am just too dumb to see the signs.

Is it just the result of too much testesterone? Or what's the deal.

[tjdee]

1. It's about control, not sex.

I don't know how control makes someone want to put their penis where it isn't welcome (well, *that* sounds controlling--but why that instead of physical abuse?), but I keep hearing over and over that it isn't about sex.

And to your question directly. There are women rapists, but men can't come out and say a woman raped them without sounding like a wuss--as generally, women are physically weaker and don't fully control the er, part that you need to..umm...you know.

[MaryH]

2. Power? Control?

I just don't get it.

[WildClarySage]

8. sometimes rape is about sex

some people can only 'get their rocks off' if they are engaging in sexual violence.

But generally speaking, rape is a means of attempting to establish a sense of control in a world in which one feels out of control. If I can't control a simple dumb woman, the internal argument goes, how can I control my life? This is why men will assault elderly, 'unattractive' women and young children. An attempt to be in control.

[MaryH]

11. And they really believe their own reasons?

[WildClarySage]

17. Never underestimate the capacity of people to delude themselves.

[the Princess]

103. Are you serious????????????????

All types of women get raped. Ugly - beautiful - fat - thin - young and old. Rape is NEVER about sex. It is all about anger - rage and control. Don't delude yourself into thinking rape is ever about sex.

As a woman who has been raped - I find your explanation inconceivable.

Get a clue.

[WildClarySage]

117. Having also been raped, and having worked as a rape victim's advocate,

I stand by my original post. I'm sorry if you are offended. But it is true that while the vast majority of rape is about anger and control, there are some real sickos out there who find sexual gratification in violence. The appearance of the victim, in either case, is irrelevant and I did not intend to imply otherwise.

[skygazer]

111. But that sort of sex IS about control

Only being able to "get your rocks off" through physical violence means that the person is getting off on the control he wields, not the sex itself.

As for the argument that women also rape, this is true but like other forms of violence, like murder and assault, it happens much less often. Testosterone alone doesn't explain that but it does seem that men are more naturally prone to violence than women. Perhaps part of it is societal norms which have taught for many generations that a "real man" is one who can defend himself through violence.

[Droopy]

3. Oh yeah. We're all rapists.

Some just hide it better than others.

[MaryH]

Oh, I don't mean that.

But you don't see very many women out there raping people. Well, except for all the elementary school teachers who seem to like little boys.

[hollywood926]

21. For every Mary Kay Letourneau,

there are 10,000 male teachers doing the same thing. It's just not as interesting to put on the news.

[Midlodemocrat]

144. Link?

Do you have any links to back up that statement?

Thanks.

[Skittles]

5. that is NOT what she is saying at all

and YOU KNOW IT; she is asking WHY DO MEN RAPE IN SUCH VAST NUMBERS?????

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. Actually, men don't rape in 'vast numbers'.

Rape is NOT a common crime, contrary to conventional wisdom.

[Skittles]

16. I think you are wrong, very wrong

I think world wide, combined with all sorts of sexual abuse, IT IS VERY COMMON

[tjdee]

26. Not to mention many cases go unreported.

1 in 6 women are going to be raped, according to Tulane's Men Against Rape site.
http://www.tulane.edu/~tmar/tips.html

[WildClarySage]

27. Considering one in four women will be sexually assaulted

at least once in her life, I'd say it's tragically common. That's not including coercion, which occurs even more often.

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. Where are those statistics from? n/t

[Skittles]

48. DO SOME RESEARCH

they come from a variety of sources

[Cuban_Liberal]

52. Such as?

...

[Skittles]

57. here

http://new.nique.net/issues/2004-08-20/focus/8

just an isolated example; the figures vary

http://www.casaonline.net/STATS.htm

if believe all rapes are reported you are seriously deluded

[Cuban_Liberal]

59. I didn't say they all were.

However, the 'estimates' of the numbers of unreported vary widely, and are impossible to verify, in an event.

[Skittles]

well of COURSE they're impossible to verify

but there is no doubt that rape/sexual assaults are THE most under-reported crimes

[Cuban_Liberal]

77. BINGO!

My point is simply this: there is wild specualtion about how many rapes go unreported.

[NorthernSpy]

164. which is why the majority of rape victims might actually be MEN...

You remarked:

... there is no doubt that rape/sexual assaults are THE most under-reported crimes

I was under the impression that theft (by a family member) was the most underreported crime. But given that America has so many people incarcerated, and that sexual violence is extremely prevalent in men's prisons and jails, some people have plausibly speculated that the majority of rapes in this country are committed against male victims.

[DontBlameMe]

180. I'm a man. I was "raped".

I was drunk and passed out. I have absolutely no recollection whatsoever of the event.

It was by someone who, had I been sober, I would never have slept with. Not in a million years.

But I never reported it.

[Misunderestimator]

62. Here's something to get you started.

Some quotes:

# Around the world at least I women in 3 has been beaten, coerced into sex or otherwise abused in her lifetime. Most often the abuser is a member of her own family. (John Hopkins School of Public Health 2000)

# An estimated 91% of victims of rape are female, 9% are male and 99% of offenders are male. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1999)

# 77% of rapes are committed by someone known to the person raped. (Bureau of Justice Statistics 1997)

# According to the National Crime Victimization Survey there were an estimated 248,000 rapes and sexual assaults against victims over the age of 12 in the US in 2001. (US Department of Justice)

# According to the National Victim Center, 683,000 women are raped each year. (1992)

# Only 2% of rapists are convicted and imprisoned. (US Senate Judiciary Committee 1993)

# Women of all ethnicities are raped: American Indian/Alaska Native women are most likely to report a rape and Asian/Pacific Islander the least likely. (National Institute of Justice 1998)

# Reported rape victimization by race is: 34% of American Indian/Alaska Native; 24% women of mixed race; 19% of African American women; 18% of white women; 8% of Asian/Pacific Islander women. (Tjaden and Thoennes, National Institute of Justice 1998)

# 80-90% of rapes against women (except for American Indian women) are committed by someone of the same racial background as the victim. (US Dept. of Justice 1994)

from here: http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. In 2003, there were 93,433 rapes *nationwide*

This represents a 2.8% decrease from 2002, and makes the incidence of rape 32.1/100K. In contast, aggravated assault in the same years were 857,921 (2003)<295.0/100K>, and 891,407 (2002)<309.5/100K>.

As I said, rape is far less common than is generally perceived.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/pdf/03sec2.pdf

[Skittles]

38. come on, Cuban_Liberal

very, very few rapes are reported than actually occur

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. No, you come on.

At least I'm using figures that have some way of actually being verified.

[Skittles]

45. google "unreported rapes" - you'll be shocked by what you learn

it is estimated that nationwide fewer than 5% of actual rapes are reported. Now think about THOSE numbers.

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. "It is estimated".... "People say"...

I estimate that more banks are embezzled than ever get reported, but I'm in a very poor position to provide anything resembling proof of that estimate, now aren't I?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Actually DOJ statistics are hardly verifiable since even THEY admit

wide discrepancies in reporting requirements from jurisdiction to juridiction. BTW....how many of those aggravated assaults were attempted rapes? Any idea?

[Cuban_Liberal]

78. No idea.

My point is now, and has been all along, that the number of unreported rapes is the subject of wild specualtion, and that there are FAR LARGER numbers of other violent crimes in this country.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. I don't buy the "wild" speculation part and would suggest that there

are far larger numbers of unreported rapes as well as assaults of a sexual nature against women that don't get classified as rape by the DOJ.

[Cuban_Liberal]

84. We'll just have to disagree, then.

Neither of us can prove what we believe.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. So why come on this thread and minimize the issue. One rape is too many.

[Cuban_Liberal]

88. I'm not 'minimizing' anything.

I'm trying to participate in this discssion on a factual, rather than an emotional level.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. Well here's a bit better statistic than "did he stick it in?"

Intimate violence

* In 2002, women experienced an estimated 494,570 rape, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated assault and simple assault victimizations at the hands of an intimate, down from 1.1 million in 1993. In 1993, men were victims of about 160,000 violent crimes by an intimate partner, and in 2002 men were victims of about 72,520 violent crimes by an intimate partner.
* On average, from 1976-1998, the number of murders by intimates decreased by 4 percent per year for male victims and 1 percent per year for female victims.
* The sharpest decrease in number of intimate murders has been for black male victims. A 74% percent decrease in the number of black men murdered between 1976 and 1998 occurred.
* Intimate violence is primarily a crime against women -- in 1998, females were the victims in 72% of intimate murders and the victims of about 85% of nonlethal intimate violence.
* Women age 16-24 experienced the highest per capita rates of intimate violence (19.6 victimizations per 1,000 women).
* Intimates (current and former spouses, boyfriends and girlfriends) were identified by the victims as the perpetrators of about 1% of all workplace violent crime.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm#relate

[Cuban_Liberal]

101. That's far more specific than 'rape'.

If we want to talk about intimate violence, then let's do that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. No...it's that the FBI really doesn't give a hoot about this statistic

And compartmentalizes it to "did he stick it in" without including other IMPULSE related crimes. Furthermore, according to most STATE reporting statistics which are far more accurate, the problem is much larger and as ALL advocacy orgs will point out...the actual occurance of rape is much higher since DOJ uses cases that are prosecuted or reported by the agencies they send reports to...

[Misunderestimator]

102. I'm saving that link for the next time I have to have this discussion.

[snoochie]

151. " for the next time I have to have this discussion."

Sad that the complexity of this issue is not more well understood.

[WildClarySage]

132. The speculation isn't all that wild

There are numerous surveys done which explore the subject in a variety of ways which usually garner fairly reliable results- the 1 in 4 figure most often quoted, for instance. Though we know that it's underreported, we also know that when reliable surveys are done, they usually converge on about the same stats. Not such a Wild Speculation at that.

[bloom]

175. There are other ways to get data than police reports...

though some around here fail to consider that.

I don't expect that people are just making numbers up. And I don't know why anyone would assume that that they are.

[tjdee]

41. Those are reported cases, Not all cases are reported.

Is rape running rampant? Probably not.

But reported numbers are just that.

[Cuban_Liberal]

43. And any speculation about unreported numbers is just that--- speculation.

.

[tjdee]

44. True enough.

[Skittles]

47. and rape crisis center will know some better numbers

as far as reported numbers go, it is "reported" that Bush won both elections

[Cuban_Liberal]

51. Actually, rape crisis ceners are required to report rapes to LE agencies.

Those numbers are, perforce, included in the UCR statistics.

[Skittles]

61. here

http://www.casaonline.net/STATS.htm

aren't you a cop? I find your attitude extremely disturbing.

[Cuban_Liberal]

66. My 'attitude' is one of hard-core realism.

Sorry if it upsets you.

[Skittles]

75. LOL

if anyone knows "hard-core realism" it is we women

[Cuban_Liberal]

79. Yeah, we cops know nothing about realism

I defer.

[Skittles]

80. ask yourself what your worst fear is

if it isn't being raped and murdered, count yourself lucky

[Cuban_Liberal]

86. And that's material to this disscusion how, exactly?

[Skittles]

94. lol

I'm done; suffice it to say I would dread having to report a rape to you

[Cuban_Liberal]

95. Me, too.

[Misunderestimator]

98. Yeah, me too...

how disappointing.

[JohnLocke]

172. How is that relevant?

[Calanus]

146. What do you find disturbing about his/her attitude?

Please elaborate.

[WildClarySage]

70. No they are not.

They may be required to report statistical data to grantors-depending on their funding sources, but that doesn't mean that they will be tallied in a complete way, and certainly rape crisis centers(or sexual assault intervention agencies) are not required to report to LE. If they were, they would not have any clients, as women are not exactly encouraged by the legal system.

The statistics on rape are usually drawn from anonymous self-report surveys and even so are usually believed to minimize the number of rapes, as many women don't consider certain types of pressure to be rape.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

109. That's what repubs say about voting irregularities

[Misunderestimator]

55. Even if you were to go with the number of "reported" rapes...

HOW on earth is 93,433 rapes PER YEAR NATIONWIDE not significant? And the stats that say that 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime is a standard, and well researched. So WHAT if rapes are "only" 10% of the number of aggravated assaults. Aggravated assault covers a HUGE array of physical crimes, none of which is as violent as rape. Rape is in a category by itself, because of its very nature. Comparing those numbers is ludicrous.

[Cuban_Liberal]

58. I never said it wasn't significant.

This is a perfect example of why rational discssion of emotionally-charged issues is difficult. I'm a former LE officer, and I personally find rape to be a repugnant, vile crime; in no way do I defend rapists, and I believe that the should be punished severely, in most cases far more severly than they currently are.

Nonetheless, rape is not nearly as prevalent as many people would like to believe, and the numbers speak to this fact.

[Amaya]

64. "the numbers speak to this fact"

You're wrong. The numbers are NOT accurate, because many many women do not report. That's a fact. period.

[Cuban_Liberal]

69. How many don't?

You're not tellig me anything don't knw when you say 'many women don't report'; I was a LE officer, and I'm quite aware of that. However, how many don't report is a matter of WILD speculation.

[Misunderestimator]

65. Sorry but saying VAST is the same as SIGNIFICANT to me.

You said that men don't rape in "vast numbers." I think that it a vast number of rapes.

[Cuban_Liberal]

74. Semantics.

[the Princess]

110. Not true!

Not by a long shot.

Demonish rape and you deminish every woman who has been raped and had her humanity ripped out from under her.

[Misunderestimator]

50. "Rape is not a common crime" What?

Are you serious?!?

[Cuban_Liberal]

53. Post 37:

_Liberal (1000+ posts) Sat Jan-08-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #16

37. In 2003, there were 93,433 rapes *nationwide*


This represents a 2.8% decrease from 2002, and makes the incidence of rape 32.1/100K. In contast, aggravated assault in the same years were 857,921 (2003)<295.0/100K>, and 891,407 (2002)<309.5/100K>.

As I said, rape is far less common than is generally perceived.

Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_03/pdf/03sec2.pdf

[Misunderestimator]

68. Yeah, and I already answered above. These are VAST numbers

just for reported rapes! I would have thought the number would be lower, knowing that most rapes go unreported.

[RevolutionaryActs]

83. But those stats are only for the USA, right?

Site wont load for me, so I can't look at it so I'm just asuming that those stats are for the USA only.

In other counties rapes go unreported all the time. I think on a global scale rape is far more common then one would like to think. But thats just my thought on the matter, and I could be wrong, in fact, I would like to be wrong.

[Skittles]

67. he's relying on only reported rape statistics, Misunderestimator

for real

[Misunderestimator]

73. I suppose that means we've been wrong about how many civilians

have been killed in Iraq as well.

[Cuban_Liberal]

82. Very likely so.

I suspect the number may be far larger, but I can't provide proof of that fact.

[Misunderestimator]

90. Yes, but you certainly don't trust the numbers you hear right?

And you suspect they are far larger. I don't think you'd get on a thread about the number of Iraqi dead and say that based on the numbers you've seen reported, it doesn't seem that we've killed a significant number of civilians.

[Cuban_Liberal]

92. I didn't say significant numbers of women aren't raped, either.

My posts are quite clear, and nowehere in this thread did I say a significant number of women aren't raped, nor did I ever say that many rapes don't get reported. I have said what I have said, no more, no less.

[Misunderestimator]

97. Pardon me? Where did I say that you said that....

I was making an analogy on the reporting of numbers. Numbers of reported rapes, and numbers of reported dead civilians in Iraq. I'm not getting your meaning here.

[Cuban_Liberal]

99. I must have misunderstood.

I thought you were making an extrapolation or specualting about what my posts would be in a thread like that.

[bloom]

176. It's like rape is only considered to be rape if one goes through the legal

channels (and reports it - to make it official) - which he represents.

Sorry - but that is disgusting.....

[Droopy]

14. Well this sure seems like a serious implication

And yet the men I know don't seem that way. Maybe I am just too dumb to see the signs.

The men she knows could be rapists even though they seem like nice folks.

[tjdee]

18. Well, considering that most rape is committed by someone the woman knows..

she could be right, sadly enough.

Women have to be very, very careful.

[Skittles]

19. well, that is very very true

just like they could be child molesters; she's saying perhaps being a nice guy doesn't preclude men from being predatory

[Droopy]

29. I'm incapable of rape

And I think most men are the same.

[Skittles]

34. I don't doubt it of you or many men either

but we know a sizeable chunk of the male species is, which is exactly what the subject is. It isn't about YOU.

[Droopy]

46. Then perhaps it would have been wiser for the OP

not to name a thread "What is it with MEN and RAPE" and then to go on and imply that all the men around her could be rapists.

How about this. "Incidences of rape seem to be on the rise" or "Why do some men rape people?" or "What is the psychology of a rapist?"

[MaryH]

20. Did you ever see John Robinson on TV

Everybody's friend. Looked like an accountant.

Who would have ever guessed that he was a s&m freak who killed women.

All that I am saying is that a whole lot of these guys pass as absolutely normal.

[Placebo]

23. A whole lot of women pass as absolutely normal...

then they suck you dry and leave you poor and lonely.

What's your point? NO ONE's true self is usually the face they show to the world, for both men and women, in all kinds of circumstances.

[MaryH]

28. I think there is a difference here between a serial killer and

women that "suck you dry."

[tjdee]

30. Well, being poor and lonely is a mite less disturbing than

having the walls of your vagina ripped, having your face punched in, being choked, etc.

Unless you're saying that women are just as likely to perform violent acts, sexual or otherwise. I am unconvinced of that.

[Placebo]

32. I'm just saying...

if you go around assuming that no matter how people act, no matter how nice they are to you, that they're probably masking some evil or sick part of themselves, not only is that likely not true for the majority of cases, but it's no way to live.

I would never say, "What is the deal with women and leaving men poor and dry? I mean, none of the women I know seem like they'd do that, but it sure does seem to happen a lot"

[tjdee]

36. That's true...

You make a good point...

It's not healthy to think all men are rapists, but I don't think MaryH feels that way. But knowing that if a woman's raped, it will probably be 1)by a man, and 2)by a man she knows, it's not hysterical that someone would be curious why that is. It's a safety issue.

[hollywood926]

33. Uh...yeah...that's the same as rape...

[Kire]

137. find a shelter or rape crisis center with services for men, and i'll...

...show you the gates of heaven.

[WildClarySage]

140. Actually, many do provide services to men.

I have worked with men who were raped at the sexual assault intervention agency I worked for. There are a lot of reasons many men don't/won't go to a rape crisis/SAIN agency, but the ones I've worked with are willing to provide the services on demand.

[bearfan454]

4. Men that rape women are pussies and very insecure.

I want the woman to actually want to have sex with me.

[MaryH]

6. Well, yea. That's would be nice!

[They_LIHOP]

177. BING BING BING!!! Ladies and Gent's WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

AND, HERE's a few more WINNERS for ya:

<matter-of-factly>
"Honey, I have yet to see any clothes that make you look fat. I'm inclined to say that would be physically impossible"

<all logical an' s**t>
"y'know, I think there's just some differences in the cut...<tailing off knowingly and saying nothing more. Note: there must be more than one item she's trying on for this to work>

<extremely sincerely>
"I REALLY think you should trust your own judgement ... you really always seem to know what looks nice on you"

<doing your best 'SHEE-IT, Girl?!? You KNOW I'm 'bout ta up and drill you right here in this dressing room'> "Um, yeah. Let's just say They're gonna look a lot better in a tangled ball on the floor later on..."

<semi-earnestly, not overdoing it. generally okay if she thinks you're full of shit> "Well, you know me, I think you look best without any make-up at all, so I'm sure I'm not the best person to ask..."

<in a moment of stunning transformation from 'screaming maniac' to 'Dr Phil' - she must be completely taken by surprise by your apparent level of caring> "Honey, you know, I haven't forgotten that you wanted me to mow the lawn and fix the <whatsit> for you, and that IS really important to me too. I promise the game will finish in time for me to do those things for you... don't worry, okay?"

<utterly dumbfounded, and best followed by a short prayer to one's own personal deity> "I CANnot believe you just asked me that? You honestly DON'T KNOW how much I love you? You can't be serious?!?"

Hope this list helps you the next time you need one of these answered ...

[Placebo]

7. If it's any consolation, things are better now than ever.

I mean, rape was far more rampant in the past than it is now.

[MaryH]

9. I guess that's some consolation.

But its still a huge problem for women. We still don't go out at night alone. Its dangerous.

[Placebo]

10. Well it's never going away.

So I guess we'll just all have to deal. But don't try and lump ALL men in with this question. It should be, "What is with some men and rape?"

[MaryH]

12. Yea, that's better.

But that "some" seems to be a pretty big number.

[Placebo]

15. No it's not.

Relatively to the whole, it's a minuscule minority.

[Skittles]

22. current wisdom has one in four girls and one in ten boys being victims

of sex crimes. While multiple offenses account for a lot of them the offenders are NOT a "miniscule minority".

[MaryH]

25. I had one man tell me there is "true rape" and then there is

"not a tru rape" I guess. True rape is where the woman gets the shit beat out of her. Other rapes don't count. And he meant it.

Odd way of thinking, huh?

[Skittles]

35. sadly

a lot of both men AND women think that way. Women like to think it "can't happen to them" and very often project blame to the victim so as to absolve themselves of vunerability. It's well known in judicial circles that overall, male jurors are much harsher on rape suspects than women are.

[RevolutionaryActs]

42. I think its going to be hard to get men to understand how a woman feels

about this subject.

Just for the simple reason, its not something they really have to worry about. Men, for the most part, are stronger then women, and bigger. So if a man really wanted to do something to a woman, he probably could.

So as a woman, even if it never happens to you, you know that it could happen to you. I also don't think a man can even understand what its like for it to happen to a woman, I, as a woman, can't even began to imagine what it would be like, but I know just the idea of it scares me.

[Placebo]

87. Pssh. I beg to differ.

I'm gay, and I assure you that rape and sexual assault is a big problem and cause for great concern for us as well.

[RevolutionaryActs]

91. I didn't mean all men, I should have clarified.

But most men aren't going to think twice about it, are they? I don't know, it just seems to me that most men wouldn't think twice about walking down a street alone at night, most women probably would. and that doesnt mean all women would worry, and not all men wouldn't worry, there are exceptions for everything! Of course, but in a majority? I don't know.... maybe I'm completely wrong?

[Midlodemocrat]

149. I think you mean 'some' men.

I have been happily married for 15 years, I have three brothers and a vast variety of friends, both male and female. None of them has ever participated in such a violent event as a rape. In fact, I don't know a single person who has been arrested for rape, and I have to tell you, I know a tremendous amount of people from all aspects of my life.

There will always be men who rape and there will always be men who take advantage of women and there will always be women who take advantage of men, but I don't think that stating that a lot of men participate in this kind of behavior is accurate or healthy. I have a 12 year old son, and we are raising him to respect women as well as to respect the word 'no'.

[MaryH]

24. I read once where 6% of the male population is a pretty

normal number for pedophiles. And it is true in just about any population. Clergy and non-clergy.

But I don't think I've heard numbers for rapists.

[HEyHEY]

31. They're whackos

[porkrind]

54. SOME men.

Thanks for including all of us in your condemnation.

[saltpoint]

56. There's a faction of feminism that holds that --

-- anyone with a penis is a rapist.

I wish you had included at least one line in your post that allowed that NOT everyone with a penis is a rapist.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sundog]

63. What is it with a society that produces men who rape?

Might be a larger question.

[Calanus]

72. Where were their mothers?

[sundog]

113. What?

Anyway, flame wars aren't my forte.

Just saying there are larger questions to be asked.

[Midlodemocrat]

150. I don't offhand, know of a society that doesn't produce men who rape.

I think it might be something as simple as a mis-wired brain. Not that that is simple, but perhaps ultimately fixable.


edit: for typo.

[hickman1937]

76. A problem with talking to men about rape is

that most men at the gut level can't understand doing that to someone. To women understanding is irrelevant. Its the ax hanging over your head when you find yourself in a parking lot alone at night, if you go to bed at night, and can't remember if you locked the doors, or even considering a blind date.

[WildClarySage]

112. Another problem with talking to many men about rape

is that they don't understand the socialization and behaviors of women that can contribute to the occurance of rape (PLEASE- I AM NOT INFERRING THAT WOMEN HAVE ANY PART OF BLAME IN RAPE) what I mean is that when many women are confronted with rape, there is often a fear response of 'freezing' up. So that even if there is someone who can help her in the very next room she may not be able cry for help, or even move, much less fight, which would be the socialized response from most men. I've worked with women who couldn't believe it was rape because they didn't feel anything at the time of the occurance, because of this freezing. They felt horribly violated afterward, but didn't want to identify it as rape because the immediate emotional response wasn't there.

The rape prosecutor in our town, though he was a very sympathetic and educated man, never could quite 'get' how a woman being raped could freeze up like that. Men who don't know as much about rape as he does would be less likely to believe that if she doesn't fight back, it's not rape. But it still is. Any time someone forces a woman to engage in a sexual activity, whether or not there is a visible or perceived threat of violence, it is rape.

[Jack_Dawson]

89. What is it about Women and Psychobitchiness?

Please don't condemn an entire gender. I've never raped anyone and frankly don't understand the urge on any level.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. sweeeeet

[the Princess]

108. Psychobitchiness?????????????????

I think the statistic is 1 out of every 3 women will be raped in her lifetime. And every 6 seconds a woman is raped.

So if we seem Psychobitchy it's because we're fighting for our lives out here because of the men who do rape.

What's your excuse?????

[Jack_Dawson]

116. My excuse for what?

I don't rape. Don't intend on raping. Condemn those who do. Don't need excuses. Next.

[the Princess]

162. Um for being condiscending

And a man who has no idea what it's like to be raped?

[SarahB]

93. Not every man is insensitive.

Women aren't the only victims.

I've never had to go through this thankfully, but enough people I've cared about in life has. It's about power and control and there's never a justification. If anyone ever hurt my children, well, let's just say their father and I would quietly handle matters.

[Cuban_Liberal]

115. You sound like my mom.

She and my dad have said virtually the same thing. God help the person who rapes one of my sisters (or brothers) or molests one of my nieces or nephews.

[Cuban_Liberal]

96. For the record, rapists are bottom-dwelling slime.

Just thought I'd get that out there, in case anyone here believes I think otherwise.

[Misunderestimator]

118. Yeah, but since it's not a big risk that we might be raped since rape

does not happen in vast numbers, we shouldn't worry too much. Sorry, just had to get that out there too.

[Cuban_Liberal]

122. Glad to let you have the last word.

[jellybelly]

107. I don't know how men...

could get aroused enough to get 'hard' while a woman is screaming in pain. Most men get aroused when a women desires sex...not when she's screaming no...

[Lone_Star_Dem]

123. It's an entirely different situation.

As has been mentioned above it's more about control. The normal factors of sexual arousal don't apply.

Men who could never commit such a crime agree with your view.

[democracyindanger]

114. What is it with Mothers and Child Murder?

Take Andrea Yates, for example. And Susan Smith and Diane Downs. It always seems to be a mother that freaks out and murders her children.

The mothers I know don't seem like they'd ever kill their own children. Maybe I am just too dumb to see the signs.

Is it just the result of too much estrogen? Or what's the deal.

[arwalden]

119. An Excellent Response.

...that will probably be overlooked or attacked.

[Susang]

141. I wish I could agree with you, Allen

Unfortunately, to me it always seems like the stories on the news are about a man who freaks out on his wife, ex-wife, girlfriend, ex-girlfriend and then proceeds to shoot her, their children and usually himself.

My admittedly unscientific observation seems to be that this type of behavior happens far more often then the high profile cases that the poster listed in the post you felt would be over looked.

If I weren't running late for a dinner engagement, I would research this further. Perhaps someone knows more facts about this topic than I do. But living in a big city like Chicago, it seems like the news constantly has a story about a father killing his partner and their children, it almost feels commonplace.

[arwalden]

160. I'm In No Position To Argue Numbers Or Frequency...

... but it's clear to me that the original post did the same thing men what I try to avoid doing with criticisms of zealot Christians.

At the very least the original post could have limited it to "crazy men" or "mean men" instead of suggesting ALL men.

What I felt would be 'overlooked' was the post ITSELF... his "parody" (for lack of a better word) that mocked the unfairness of the outrageously BROAD swipe taken at men by the original post.

This was the intent of my reply. I was congratulating that poster on his ability to illustrate the ABSURDITY of the original post with an equally ABSURD example.

I predicted that his *post* would either be overlooked (which it wasn't, perhaps in part because my reply drew attention to it)... or that it his post would be attacked... because of it's unfair absurdity... which it was.

-- Allen

[democracyindanger]

179. Thank you, Ar. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

125. Well it isn't true..when you can prove more women are raped by women

you'll have a point...children are more often killed by men than women:

f all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2002 --

* 31% were killed by fathers
* 30% were killed by mothers
* 23% were killed by male acquaintances
* 6% were killed by other relatives
* 3% were killed by strangers

Of those children killed by someone other than their parent, 82% were killed by males.
Relationship, 1976-2002

Gender of
offender Parent Other family Friend/
Acquaintance Stranger Unknown
Male 4,727 675 3,484 404 284
Female 4,563 360 630 22 88
Most of the children killed are male and most of the offenders are male

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/children.htm

[democracyindanger]

128. I don't care if its true or not

I'm just referring to a few news stories to make a pointless, dumbass indictment of an entire group of people.

And I said "mothers", not "women." But nice try.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

131. She didn't indict an entire group. If you read her OP she made it clear

she didn't know any men she felt were capable of committing this crime. Rape is a crime of impulse. Notice the impulse of men on this thread to hurl it right into denial. Frankly, men probably DO respond to their impulses regarding sex more than women do..it certainly doesn't mean all men are rapists and the title of the thread is hardly constructive...but I do find all the defensiveness on the part of men on the thread slightly amusing.

[democracyindanger]

133. Yes, instead of being defensive

about being associated with rapists, we should either be indifferent or revel in it.

YEAH! WOO HOO! MOST MEN ARE RAPISTS! SCORE ONE FOR OUR SIDE!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

135. Again...you deliberately misread and blame someone else

Maybe you could shed some light on what makes some men so impulsive about sex...or share how it is that you are NOT impulsive about it...no one said ALL...no one said MOST...really..why the defensiveness on the matter? She poorly worded the header but made it clear in her OP that she did not know men like this.

Score one for reading comprehension.

[democracyindanger]

139. Rape is not about sex.

Rape is about power.

And because she hasn't taken it upon herself to edit the OP, there's no reason to think she didn't mean to suggest that all men are rapists-in-waiting.

[Misunderestimator]

145. Rape is also about sex...

and it is definitely about both power (the lack of it) and sex (for obvious reasons) to the victim. I don't understand people always saying that rape is not about sex. Sure it's probably more about power, but it's the sexual aspect of this particular crime that has made it difficult to know how many women have experienced it, since many are ashamed to report it. I'm pretty certain that a woman's view of sex is altered somewhat after a rape.

[snoochie]

157. I wish I could find the defensiveness as amusing.

I find it shocking, and frankly, sickening.

[democracyindanger]

161. So we shouldn't be defensive about

the insinuation that it's just in our nature to be rapists? Just lay back and accept it, huh?

Wow. Talk about sickening.

[melnjones]

130. Mother/daugher sexual abuse

is far more common than anyone wants to believe. It is more underreported than other sexual abuse, and is equally if not more damaging because it can be easily hidden or disguised as "caretaking" rituals. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Misunderestimator]

134. Oh for pete's sake.... until you can compare those numbers to

the numbers of rape, it's simply throwing a stink bomb. Why must so many people feel the need to minimize the very real problem of rape by interjecting this-versus-that scenarios that cannot compare?

[melnjones]

138. I am a female, a social worker, and a victim of sexual abuse...

The last thing I would do is try to minimize the problem of rape. I simply saw that one area in which abuse DOES happen, ie where females are both the perpetrator and the victim, was spoken of as though it doesn't ever happen, and that's simply not true. Honestly I do agree with a lot of what you're saying on this thread (I haven't read it all, it's long). However, if you have the right to advocate for a serious issue, I have the same right. Not trying to fight against you here, only making a point.
http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/survivors.html
Here's a link with information about mother/daughter sexual abuse.

[Misunderestimator]

142. Sure you do, but it's not the subject of the thread, and there's

been a lot of "look, this is just as bad" stuff going on here, that posting that here minimizes the primary issue of the thread. I do agree with you that yours is a serious topic which merits serious discussion.

[Midlodemocrat]

143. I think a statement like that

...needs a link or some research to back it up.

Thanks.

[melnjones]

148. Here you go...

http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/survivors.html

[Midlodemocrat]

152. Looked at the link

...several posts in the member guest book are by victims of 'emotional abuse'. I think the number of people who actually participate in this ranks right up there with the number of moms who drown their children because God told them to do so.

[melnjones]

154. And the guestbook is the most informative part of the site?

Believe what you want, but you're wrong.
http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/files/Breaking_the_Sil...
On edit...just looked at the guestbook myself and I have no idea what you're talking about. Tons of people are there who are survivors of this kind of abuse. Like I said, it's damaging because no one wants to believe it happens, and you are proving my point. Geez, didn't think my one little comment would cause all this, why don't we just go back to pretending I hadn't said anything?

[Misunderestimator]

163. And they quote stats of 1 to 10% re ALL types of female-female abuse

First, 1% is a huge way away from 10%, and second, even at the high end, the stat covers ALL female-to-female abuse, NOT just mother/daughter sexual abuse. So a mother berating her daughter emotionally, or a sister abusing her sister are included in these stats. The site itself shows that this (mother/daughter sexual abuse) is not as pervasive a problem as (doesn't even approach statistically) male sexual abuse against women and children.

[Midlodemocrat]

165. I looked at the site

...and the numbers indicate that if this is a problem, it is a very small problem. The first entry in the guestbook is by a woman who states immediately that she is not a victim of sexual abuse, but emotional abuse.

[flvegan]

120. It's "certain" men, not all men. I'm a man, and I pounded the shit outta

a guy that attempted to rape a friend of mine at a party we were at. It was high school, and he was much bigger than me. When she told me what he did, I confronted him. He sorta joked. I made sure he swung first...

I was put in PC. He went to the ER. As a senior, he caught even more shit, for 1. attempting what he did; and 2. getting his ass completely kicked by a freshman.

It's not "what is it with men and rape?" it's "what is it with some men and rape?"

I feel your anger, though.

[Midlodemocrat]

153. You are totally correct

It is not men, it is some men. My husband is the kindest, gentlest of souls and we are raising our son to be respectful and kind towards women.

I also have three brothers who have never/ would never commit such an act. Most men are not rapists, they are a wonderful distraction.

[iconoclastic cat]

121. Okay, I'll go there:

If there are 62,000+ DUers, I would be willing to bet there is at least one of the following registered:
--Rapist
--Pedophile
--Misc. abuser of family members

Triple that number for people who have joined Free Republic.

[Misunderestimator]

124. I would guess the numbers would be higher...

but it would be all wild supposition. Nice little detour by the way... ick.

[iconoclastic cat]

126. I didn't really think it's all that off-topic; did you?

I mean, if we're discussing both the psychology and statistics of sexualized violence, then doesn't it follow that we be honest about this issue?

[Misunderestimator]

127. Definitely quite "on" topic actually....

It's just a disturbing thought. It really would be an interesting discussion in itself.

[iconoclastic cat]

129. You won't be seeing that in any "Admit it" or "Confess" threads, I bet

I think it's like the whole impending-US-fascism thing: the potential reality is so disturbing that we censor ourselves into denial.

[snoochie]

159. Now *that* is disturbing.

[melnjones]

136. For the record, females are also sexual perpetrators...

Not trying to diminish the fact that yes, the majority of sexual abuse and assault is from men and it is a problem, but an issue that no one seems to want to deal with is the fact that children are sexually abused by women too, and often this abuse is even less likely to be reported either because it seems less believable or because it is disguised as caretaking rituals and seen as part of the mother's role. I am also speaking of mother/daughter sexual abuse. It happens and is just as damaging if not more so. I really can relate to the ease in which we can blame men and etc. I've done it too. But we do need to be aware that whenever there are generalizations, there are also victims that DON'T fit into that generalization and are now even MORE likely to stay in hiding.

On edit...please visit this link to find information on mother/daughter sexual abuse.
http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/survivors.html

[RevolutionaryActs]

147. Can we please all stop this.

Stop twisting words, stop accusing, just stop.

We can all agree that rape is a sick, vile and disgusting act, and no one who has gone through it, be they a man or a woman, should feel ashamed for seeking help, they have been violated in a way no human should be.

We are all citizens of this world, and we must all do our part to make this place better. To do that, we must realize what is wrong with this world and do our best to stop it, or to fix it.

So please, everyone take a deep breathe and realize we're on the same side.

[hickman1937]

155. Amen

[melnjones]

156. I'm done, this is ridiculous. nt

[slutticus]

158. Holy horseshit!

What the fuck is this doing in the lounge! I thought I took a wrong turn and ended up in GD, I started to run away but then I noticed where I was.

What gives?

[JVS]

167. Seriously. The lounge is where people post cat pictures and stuff

This is way too serious a topic

[T Town Jake]

166. I guess we're all just swine, and should disappear...

...unless properly "neutered."

Jeeze Louise, I can barely imagine the (justified) outrage if I'd headed the subject line of a post with such an unfair, sweeping statement along the lines of, oh, say "What is it with Women and the murder of little children?", with a passing reference to a story about Andrea Yates in the body of the post as my justification for trotting out such horseshit.

Unbelievable.

[tjdee]

168. Except it wouldn't be true, as most children are also killed by men.

So if you were to make a statement like that, someone would say actually, killed children are mostly so at the hands of fathers and other male relatives. Obviously YOU wouldn't commit rape, but men do commit the majority of rapes.

I don't think the original poster meant to disparage the entire male population, but yes, she should have said "some" men. I just think the "some" is implied.

(as to the murder of children, from nothingshocksmeanymore's post above: )
Of all children under age 5 murdered from 1976-2002 --

* 31% were killed by fathers
* 30% were killed by mothers
* 23% were killed by male acquaintances
* 6% were killed by other relatives
* 3% were killed by strangers

Of those children killed by someone other than their parent, 82% were killed by males.
Relationship, 1976-2002

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/children.htm

[They_LIHOP]

169. Gosh, ma'am, that IS a SILLY, SILLY question!!!

Before ANY GUYS answer, allow me to, er, remind you of a few other questions that, um, shall we say, 'sometimes get asked in life' See if you can follow me here...

"Should I color my hair?"
"Do these jeans make my butt look fat?"
"Do you think I've got too much make-up on?"
"How much longer are you going to be <watching football, playing cards/video games with your friends, on the internet, etc>?"
or every man's all time fave:
"How much do you love me?"

Ponder what these questions have in common, and you'll know exactly what I'm gettin at here

[They_LIHOP]

170. What is it with Women and Rape?

As in, like, WHY DO THEY BRING IT UP ON DU WHEN ALL IT EVER DOES IS CAUSE MASSIVE FIGHTS BETWEEN US EVERY SINGLE F***ING TIME...

Nevermind, actually, I don't really want to know...

Sheesh...

[tjdee]

171. It *is* a discussion board.

Uh...that's why?

[They_LIHOP]

178. Uh, Gee, REALLY?

Don't let my post count fool you. I've been here quite a while ... Long enough to have a pretty good grasp on the whole 'discussion board' concept, lets put it that way.

If I may be ALLOWED the privilege of some speculation, it kinda seems to me that when a woman asks a question like this, it is actually one of those 'border-line rhetorical' questions. One of those "I want to be made to feel better/safer/more secure/less stressed about this subject"-kinda deal. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, these are things we all need from time to time.

What I'm saying is: everytime a question about this subject is posted here on DU, there is a Man/Men (being that we're from Mars and all) who tend to take the question at face value, think of the subject in a 'matter of fact' kinda way, begin to ponder and pontificate ... then all sh*t breaks loose. EVERY SINGLE-DINGLE TIME.

For a male to answer this emotionally-loaded question in any sort of 'logical' or 'technical' way (in mixed company) is truly RARELY appreciated, and far more often scorned, particularly by women who've 'been there', as it were. I think for some, the simple fact that someone would talk about the subject seemingly off-handedly or casually reminds them of, er, horrible, horrible things that they don't want to be reminded of. And I don't think any of us DU'ers want to cause any lady any pain, do we guys?

I just can't stress enough to my fellow DU gents that you really don't want to 'go there' when it comes to this subject. Especially not in this medium, where it's so easy to misinterpret peoples words because you just don't have the visual/verbal clues that you get when speaking in person or even on the phone.

Or, to put it another way: "Danger, Will Robinson!!!"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

183. In a logical/technical way? Are you going to tell us it is in a man's

biology to do this? If so...I think I recognize you..you just gave yourself away

[They_LIHOP]

184. Not sure I follow you

And I'm also not sure I appreciate the tone, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

It certainly seems sometimes like we guys might be biologically prone to completely miss the boat when it comes to interpreting the real point of questions that women put out there. This one here could be an illustration right out of that men are from mars book. A "case in point".

I mean, let's face it, there IS NO 'excuse' for rape, so how can a guy 'answer' this question without coming off looking like an ass? I'm just saying sometimes you need your bro(s) to catch on to what a girl is really asking, then 'catch you', as in, stick an elbow in your ribs, as in, 'shut up, dude, you don't even understand the question and you're just pissing her off'.

Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it seems like the original poster wasn't *really* wanting to hear some dry technical discussion on 'what is it with men and rape'. And damn sure didn't want to hear a policeman downplaying the frequency of how much it occurs. I was just trying to be the friend that 'got it' and clued his virtual buddies in.

The proper response to virtually any question on this particular subject is clearly just to speak disdainfully about anyone who would commit this terrible act, express sympathy for it's victims, possibly point out the obligatory 'it's about control/violence, not sex' soundbyte we've all heard about a bazillion times, and leave it at that.

Come to think of, let's just pretend that's what I did.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

185. We can pretend but this statement concerns me

The proper response to virtually any question on this particular subject is clearly just to speak disdainfully about anyone who would commit this terrible act, express sympathy for it's victims, possibly point out the obligatory 'it's about control/violence, not sex' soundbyte we've all heard about a bazillion times, and leave it at that.

Come to think of, let's just pretend that's what I did.

Is there any other explanation you have?

[RandomKoolzip]

173. I don't feel good about seeing men in this thread minimize this issue.

Almost every woman I know has been raped. I even know a couple guys who were. It IS a big issue, and it is NOT about sex.


It makes me wince when I see a man take a stance on this issue that isn't 100% unqualified support for rape victims....WE don't know what it's like. WE don't know how it feels. Just like abortion, a man's opinion really doesn't have a place here.



(And women can't rape, unless they're wearing a strap-on.)

[Misunderestimator]

174. Thank you RandomKoolzip.

Your words are appreciated.

[slutticus]

186. Well..

...I disagree. Perhaps in the overall issue, a man's opinion doesn't have a place. However, when the topic of discussion is titled "What is it with men and rape?", implying that all men rape women, I have to take issue.

There is a right way and a wrong way to bring up a topic. I was very surprised to see this flamebait in the lounge, but what can you do?

[Nikia]

181. Unfortunately, this is one area that I am sexist about

Perhaps, it was because I was raped. Perhaps, it is because I know many other women who have been raped. Perhaps it is because I have heard men joke about rape. Perhaps it is because my husband says that several college aquaintances talked about wanting to rape or doing things that could be considered rape. Perhaps it is because every time I go to a concert, I am grabbed on purpose several times by male strangers. Perhaps it is because I have been grabbed a couple times by male aquaintances. Perhaps it is because I have been sexually harassed multiple times.
Until I know a male, 16-60, well enough and he has proven himself otherwise, I just don't feel safe being alone with him. I am also sad to know that a few otherwise decent seemingly decent men have admitted to me a level of coercion of some sexual partners that could be considered rape. I have also experienced this in almost all dating situations. It seems to me that most men are socialized to see nothing wrong with coercion. Sometimes rape can become an extension of this.

[Misunderestimator]

182. Thank you, Nikia for sharing your experience...

I have not been raped, but I do have many friends who have been. I have been molested, physically assaulted and sexually threatened by men. I have not had one such experience with a woman. I agree with you that I feel a certain level of suspicion around a man I do not know well, that would not be as high around a woman I do not know.

[edbermac]

187. Are you kidding???

Every time I pick up a paper, some hot little schoolteacher is having sex with her underage pupils...