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jellybelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:09 AM
Original message
Nobody answered my question in GD
why shouldPat Tillman be criticized? some ass called me a morAn...but didn't answer. :wtf:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
1. I dont know why people criticized Tillman
What upset me about the cartoon is that it implies he enlisted just to kill arabs.
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jellybelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. it also upset me...
I just want to know why these so-called liberals would criticize Tillman personally...they just called me a morAn...At least answer, right? :grr:
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. My problem as I said with the cartoon is that it assumes Tillman
did what he did because he was blood hungry and he was just another jock. I concede that many athletes are republicans but that does not make them bad people, I am sick of many giving athletes a bad deal just because they may have some political differences, often times they give back to the community in big ways. Thats another post though :).
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. I cannot answer for others, only for myself
This might not be the answer you are looking for, but it's the only one I have.

I cannot support what Pat Tillman did, any more than I can support what all soldiers do. I believe that killing is wrong and that there are no ends worth committing that act. Do I support the troops? No, not if that means condoning what they do. I wish them no harm and think they shouldn't be screwed by a negligent government, but I cannot support their actions, even if they are not the ones making the decisions to bomb or occupy.

Is this position irrational? Probably. Is it realistic? Probably not. But that doesn't change anything for me - I have as much control over my feelings about this as I do over the orbit of our planet.


Does this help?
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jellybelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Do you believe Tillman should be criticized?
I just wanted to know why some think it's fine to personally criticize a man who died in war.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I am not sure what you are asking
Are you asking if it is fine to criticize Pat Tillman even though he died in war, or are you asking if it is fine to criticize Pat Tillman's death?

I don't believe Pat Tillman's death absolves him of any of the responsibility borne by others that haven't died.
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jellybelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I guess I'm asking..
what would be the point in criticizing Tillman at all, for any reason?
There is none. He fought and died in a war. What criticism should be directed at him personally? I don't think you're actually criticizing him, but thanks for trying to understand.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. My understanding of criticism directed at Tillman
Criticism of Tillman (as opposed to a generic soldier) is useful to Rall because Pat Tillman is a public figure that serves as a reference point for the discussion. His departure from the NFL was publicized and IMHO most Americans were aware of his situation. Commentary is more successful when tied to a particular individual, so Rall gets to give his message more punch by using a well-known figure. Rall also gets to criticize the media's re-writing of Tillman's death as something heroic. Why was Tillman described as heroic? Because he quit the NFL to join the military, or because he died on the battlefield? If the latter, then why don't all soldiers get the same treatment when they die? If the former, I cannot describe his actions as heroic for the reasons I listed in the prior post.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I understand your position
Its just I think Rall was wrong to judge Tillman as blood thirsty, if I read that cartoon correct it said something like "read the fine line, I wanna kill me some arabs" or something like that. Thats my main problem with it, feel free to agree or disagree. Many of those who enlist in the military aren't as privileged as us, I really do wish there was other alternatives for the poor of this country than military service, I hate the fucking wars too but when I say I support the troops, I say I support their safety and well being and a hope that they will live to see their families again, these people are young men and women with their whole lives ahead of them.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. That's close to what it said (I just saw it in the GD thread)
It said "Never mind the fine print. Will I get to kill Arabs?"

I think Ted Rall is well within his rights to judge Pat Tillman and then speak (or write) about it. Rall may pay a price for his opinion (in lost newspaper subscriptions) but that is his choice to make.

I think most (if not all) DUer's care about the troops as human beings and want them to come home alive and well.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. He has every right to say what he feels but I find it very judgemental
I don't think knowing what I know about Tillman suggests that he was blood thirsty and looking to kill Arabs. I just think its ignorant to assume that.
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jellybelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm going to sleep...
I'm never going back to GD, I get too upset for no rational reason.
Bye my fellow biatches! (that's a compliment) :P
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I am just about to get started for the day
Well night or morning I guess.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I don't know about the "bloodthirsty" part, but...
Why would you join the military if you weren't prepared (on one level or another) to kill people? Isn't that what the military does? I know there are many in our country that join the armed forces because it seems like a viable option - I had a ton of friends out of high school and college who did that - but that reason doesn't change the fundamental nature of the military.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I dont know really but I dont think he did it because he wanted to kill
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 06:51 AM by JohnKleeb
Perhaps he thought it was his duty to his country, thats why some here enlist. It is the fundamental nature of the military to kill people, true but I don't think many people join because they want to kill people.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. This is where it gets crazy
There's an interesting blurring between duty to country and serving in the military (not because of you). It seems that there aren't many obvious ways to directly serve one's country without joining the military. Given the options, people take the available and publicized one - the military. While there are those that do actively want to kill people, I don't think it's a factor for most. That still doesn't invalidate my point - in order to join the military, one must accept that killing or supporting killing is part of the job. When Pat Tillman signed up he had to recognize that killing Arabs (because of the timing) would be connected in some way to his service, whether directly or indirectly. Rall may be exaggerating Tillman's decision, but the fundamental nature of his decision is still the same.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Of course he had to recongize that
Edited on Sat Jan-08-05 07:02 AM by JohnKleeb
My problem is with the exaggerating of the decision, I highly doubt that he went to the enlistment office and said "Sign me up! I wanna kill Arabs.", now that are some who enlist for that purpose but many are poor kids who enlist because they are too poor to afford college and if they stay in their towns they will make very little money as an unskilled worker. My problem is that Rall shows in my view Tillman as a blood thirsty jock who enjoys killing. Many in the military hate having to kill.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I think Rall's purpose is to shock people
Is his portrayal of Tillman an exaggeration? Probably (none of us were there, as far as I know). But Rall doesn't have the space (nor the inclination, judging by what I've seen of his work) to give a nuanced description of his interpretation of Tillman's decision. He's a cartoonist and his discription of Tillman is a cariacture, much like our daily abuse of George W. Bush perverts his nature into various forms (the chimp theme, for example).

Ultimately - if Rall's work disturbs you, don't read it, but I think it is wrong to suggest that he can't express himself in this manner.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I didn't say he shouldn't be able to express himself
Its his first amendment right to do so but what I am doing here is criticizing his judgement of Tillman and saying it was a very judgemental thing to do on a guy whose death was exploited by the media certainly but wasn't the blood thirsty man, Rall makes him out to be. I don't have a problem with Rall being in the papers, thats not the point, jelly and the guy who started the thread got jumped on for criticizing Rall's point, and thats what I am doing here, I think Rall's point is wrong.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Where is the bloodthirstiness?
By the way - I'm really tired so I may not be very clear and might occasionally repeat myself. I apologize for any miscommunication.

Are you interpreting the first panel of Rall's cartoon as portraying Tillman as bloodthirsty? Perhaps we don't read it the same way. I interpret Rall's interpretation (whew!) as Tillman saying that he wanted justice - something not uncommon post 9/11 - and killing Arabs was the way to do accomplish that.

I apologize also if I seemed a little harsh with the "express himself" thing - you didn't say that.


I don't think I can last much longer - I'm really fading so if I don't respond to one of your posts it isn't because I don't care! :)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. I was actually gonna proposing we drop it t
the blood thirstyness is where Rall has Tillman ethuisatic it seems about killing Arabs. All is good, I for your info don't think Rall is a horrible guy, I just am not a fan of how he presents his viewpoint. Do you want to agree to disagree? I can do that.
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I think that is perfectly acceptable
No-one (and I mean no-one) agrees about everything. What's more important is how we treat those with whom we disagree.

Thanks. (I'm going to bed)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sure
Good night.
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jellybelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. found something to disagree about...
of course Rall can judge Tillman....but why would he want to? Does he have proof that Tillman said that? Did he know Tillman personally? Why pass judgement on someone he doesn't know? He can do it of course, but why?

I think it's only because the repugs saw Tillman as 'Their' hero...
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AZCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. I tried to answer your question in post #13 n/t
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artificial flavor Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
18. I don't think it is so much a criticism of Tillman.
What pisses me off is making it a big news story about how great we are and how our cause is correct. Hey, if a millionaire went to die for the cause it must be right. It takes much balls to give up the mansion to fight for the great USA. That makes the fight worth fighting. while all the other are a number on a tag and families are notified by a machine.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Now that I agree with
My belief is that all who have died in this war have died tragically and unnesscarly, and it is sad that to this administration, they are just statistics.
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Calanus Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 06:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. Here's your answer: The Eagles.
I hope you're fucking happy now.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-08-05 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. you missed the point of rall's cartoon.
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