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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:28 AM
Original message
DU Drummers.....a question about cymbals.....
What is the main difference between the sizes? I have a drum kit and am self taught. But the technical sound aspects of the instrument still elude me. I know what the high hat is for and how it sounds.
My kit pretty much just has a high hat and a 16" crash ride. But the difference in sound between the high hat and the crash ride doesn't sound very good when I'm recording or playing. The 16" sounds much more hollow, tinny and open than the high hat. Would a 12 or 14" give me more of a tighter crash/ride sound? I'm honestly not sure how the sounds of science aspect work with regard to cymbals.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think ChavezSpeaksTheTruth is a drummer
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 08:33 AM by Bleachers7
You might also want to check with Beetwasher. I don't know if he plays the drums, but he's a musician.
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ChavezSpeakstheTruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Actually - RandomKoolzip is the drummer. I'm the production/musician
beat builder and loop maker.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's been awhile since I owned a kit
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 08:37 AM by htuttle
But what I remember about cymbals is that the thinner ones are higher pitched, while the thicker ones are lower pitched. The diameter doesn't seem to matter as much (maybe affects volume more than pitch).

Actually, it might be the other way around, now that I think of it...at least if you use it as a ride cymbal, the thicker ones are actually higher pitched...gah!

The type of metal and it's tempering matter a lot too. I always liked Zildjian, since it seemed like I could get a lot of different sounds out of them. I had a few cheaper crash cymbals (don't remember the brands), but they often sounded sort of 'dull', like a tin can (not that bad, but close).

edit: speling. I
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Try experimenting with different sizes and thicknesses
Test them in the shop next time you go. You'll also get very different sounds depending on the point of imapact.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thickness and width determine the amount of sustain or "wash."
As well as volume and the ability to cut through other sounds. My own favorite cymbal was a Paiste Signature 18" Power Crash....that thing was louder than God and could sustain for days....and the sound was lower-pitched, almost like a ride. However, I also bought at the same time a Paiste Dimensions 16" Crash/Ride, which simply could not compete in the sound picture with the Power Crash, and I sold it and went back to my cheap old Sabian B8 18" Crash/Ride (also a great cymbal, esp. for the money)

If you're trying to decide if you need a smaller size cymbal, because the one you're using sounds hollow, it's probably best to go the other way around. Keep the width the same, but go for a thicker size. Do you use Zildjians? I've always been a Paiste man, myself......Paiste usually does a great job in letting the customer know what purposes each cymbla is best for in their catalogs, and in the product name. I've always found Zildjians too quiet, and with undernourished "wash" qualities....but then again, I'm a Bonham/Paice-type heavy hitter.

And if the problem is the recorded sound of the thing, then hmmm.....are you doing the recording yourself? Are you working with a bad producer or in a bad room? Are you miking the cymbals with two overhead 57's, as is the norm? Maybe some unusual mike placement would be a good idea.

If you're still unsatisfied, try a different stick size.
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Joe Power Donating Member (778 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. Been a long time since I bought any, but...
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 09:24 AM by Joe Power
...you can't go wrong with Zildjian. Paiste and Sabian make decent cymbals, as well. My advice is to take your current 16" cymbal in to a good, reputable drum shop and have a DRUMMER help you match two new cymbals. Get a good crash, and a good ride. I always liked having at least two rides and two crashes. If possible, do not go to an all-around music store. Chances are that you'll be "assisted" by a guitar player or a keyboard player who know nothing about drums, and don't want to know anything, either.

Make your choice(s) based on how the cymbals match up together, how much you like their tone personally, and what type of music you'll be playing.

One more thing, if possible, have someone else hit them while you stand in front of the cymbal. They sound entirely different to an audience than they do when you're playing.

Good luck!
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Amaya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. The bigger the cymbal the louder it is
And the heavier the cymbal the longer it resonates.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Also, Pitch Is. . .
. . .defined by the ratio of the whole cymbal to the bell size. So, as the cymbal gets smaller, on constant ratio cymbals (like Paiste) the bell gets smaller. Hence the most resonant part of the cymbal moves at a higher frequency. The primary undertone is then a higher pitch.

The main part of the cymbal is essentially atonal and creates the wash. So, more mass means longer decay, more volume, but the bell size over the whole cymbal defines pitch.

In some cymbals, if the bell is too large a portion of the whole cymbal, the resonant frequency is too low. It can create phase overtones that create the hollow sound the OP mentioned. In a giant room, that's probably ok, but in one's basement, it might sound terrible. A thicker cymbal with the same bell/dish ratio might be better because the bell primary is overloaded by the wash, and the larger mass of the cymbal pulls the vibration away from the center more quickly.

I find it disturbing that i know this much about cymbals. But, my friend John is a monster drummer who knows all the tech, as well.
The Professor

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HEAVYHEART Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
8. FYI
If you don't already know, we have a Musican's Group here in DU.

Here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks...
Although I cannot post since I am not a donor.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. There are Star-Bellies here who will post for you!
PM me, for instance, and I will do so.

:hi:
dbt
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Feel Free To PM Me, Too
Either one of us. I'd be happy to ask a question in the Mus. Forum if you have one. I like going there. Kindred spirits and all.
The Professor
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. try a splash
a smaller crash, like 10"
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