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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:34 AM
Original message
I am depressed beyond belief
And I need some advice.

For the past three years, I've been taking care of all the needs of a man I'll call Bob (NOT his real name). Bob was convicted wrongfully of a sex offense at the behest of his ex-wife. The "victim" testified on the stand that Bob was asleep when the crime was committed.

Due to the nature of sex crimes in my state, it has been impossible for Bob to find a job since we met. For three years, I have been paying for him to live under my roof, eat my food, drive my car, etc, etc. Bob and I are in love, but it's becoming next to impossible for me to deal with the situation.

I make almost 40K/year, but we, Bob and I, live paycheck to paycheck.... and I've taken to going out for a cash advance just to make ends meet. He's socially stigmatized, no one, not even fast food, will hire him or even call him back. He's submitted over 300 jobapplications this year alone, and not a single call back.

I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!! I am SO goddamn fucking FED UP with not being able to even fill my gas tank, let alone go see a movie or shoot pool or ANYTHING, I'm ready to screm... and he's mentally unbalanced as a result of what his ex-wife did to him (divorce was involved, too; as he was in jail on the sex crime when his divorce was finalized, he wasn't in court for the divorce hearing, and she walked away with literally everything but the clothes he was wearing... and he WAS a trained sexurity gurd, which he can't do anymore, and he HAS a CDL-A, which he can't even use because no trucking company will hire him for insurance reasons, and not even temp agencies will touch him)....

DAMN, DAMN, DAMN!!!! Having him in my life has cost me $1500 in his supervision fees for his probation,l $1300 in fines and restitution, ALL his child support for the past three years, AND about 5K in credit card debt and I am SICK of it all!!!

I love the guy with all my heart... but how, how, HOW do I fix the shatered glass my life has become? I don't want to leave him, and if I throw him out, he goes directly to jail, as our motherfucking unconstitutional as hell sex offender registry requires that he has a residence or he automatically commits a felony for not having a permamant address and goes directly to prison!

HEEEELLLLP!!!!!!! Advice? Please?

PLEASE?????
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. can you give a little more info on his "crime"?
Also, if he was wrongfully convicted can't he appeal?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. He pled guilty on his incompetant lawyer's advice.
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 02:59 AM by kgfnally
But no lawyer in the state will try to approach it as legal malpractice, since he pled guilty. "He should have known better."

He's going up for an expungement next year.

Bob was passed out drunk on the couch, when his 11-year-old stepson, who threatened to kill 'Bob', and whom 'Bob' had threatened to send to military school, climbed up on the couch with him. 'Bob' put the back of his hand on his stepson's crotch while he was sleeping, and BINGO! Sex crime.

Sounds planned? I'm thinking it was a setup....
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. my cynical reaction is that he is the cause of his own problems
and he is going to have to find a solution. You are in a terrible situation. I think you have a right to demand that he find a day labor job, or wash dishes in a restaurant. There has to be something he can do.

Something has to give. You can not go on this way. Does he at least do all the housework and cook the meals?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Day labor? Wash dishes?
He applied. And was summarily rejected. Nature of his conviction, don't ya know?

And even now, now that he's NOT telling the truth about it... well, his "employment gap is suspicious, and we don't want to hire anyone with a three-year gap in employment."

Yes, we've heard THAT before, as well.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. You're Not Cynical - You're Correct
And now he's found someone to make life easy for him.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. Dammit, it's NOT
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 03:23 AM by kgfnally
me making life easy for him, it's me keeping his head above water so he has a damn CHANCE to get his life back on track! And it's people OUTSIDE him- employers- that simply WILL NOT give him that chance!

(I'm betting neither you nor anyone close to you has ever been in this situation. Your attitude is typical of people who have never been where he is. And yes, I do know what I'm talking about. My mom says the same things you do, and she bears out my opinion, in spades.)
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. You're Damn Straight I've Never Been In That Situation
I would never accept that kind of person (unemployable, irresponsible) into my life. NEVER.

You are making things easy for him, whether you want to admit it or not.

How long has he been telling you it's everybody else's fault that he's a parasite?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. I'm ignoring you
because you're cold, calculating, insulting, and generally inhuman.

May one of your kids end up in Bob's place.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. I Don't Have Kids!
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 03:44 AM by REP
I know how to prevent that!

I understand your turning your anger somewhere safe. I forgive you.

(Wishing harm on someone's non-existant children is not nice, though)
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
102. Jesus, you're a dick
Seriously. Did you read anything that kgfnally wrote? Or are you just knee-jerking and saying that all men without jobs are leeches? Something tells me it's the latter.

Have you ever made mistakes in your life, or are you perfect and holy in every way?
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. this isn't much.....
but have you considered starting some kind of business?

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Doing what?
He has no skills that are not voided by his conviction.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. something basic
lawn care, window cleaning, clearing leaves or snow.

Not glamourous, but little or no investment is required, and any income at all will help the situation. It could be oriented toward your days off, or focused locally enough where he would not need transportation.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
47. The lawn people who sometimes do yard work for me are
making good money. They aren't cheap, I'll tell ya that. 100.00 to clean up leaves in a yard that is 25'x50 feet. Takes them about 2 hours (big oak tree in NEIGHBORS yard that drops leaves in mine.)

He has a guy working with him who drives the station wagon because he lost his license for DUI.

Does this sound like a possibility kg?

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. Without a car?
Or credit to buy equipment? No business knowledge?

Maybe. But seasonal work doesn't help much in a state where you actually HAVE seasons. :)

Besides, depression on the level he has it isn't exactly conducive to starting any business.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. If he is incapable of taking any action
and both of you are sinking into a deep depression.

Then it is up to you to either increase your income or get rid of him.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #54
71. come on, will you listen to yourself?
How much business sense does it take for someone to buy a rake and start raking leaves? Once he does that he can afford a lawn mower and next summer he can expand to mowing grass.
He is too depressed? Well he will be a lot less depressed once he gets off his ass. You can enable him, or you can love him enough to really help him.
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virtualobserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. kgfnally isn't looking for practical answers
all practical suggestions are logically defeated.

He's just looking for emotional support.
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. kg, sounds like a HORRIBLE situation!
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 02:43 AM by nm3damselfly
I know we cannot help who we fall in love with, sometimes, but we CAN help whose way we pay in life. Sorry to sound so cold, but it's not your responsibility to keep him out of jail. Or to pay for his kids. Or to feed and clothe him.

I'd go IMMEDIATELY and talk with a counselor or therapist about how to extricate yourself from this situation. I know how cruel sex-offender laws can be, but YOU'RE the one paying (literally) for the crime, not him.

Get out. Right now. Don't work another second to pay this guy's way. If he's a terrific guy, he'll solve his own problems and find a way to pay you back. Otherwise, you'll have saved yourself lots of money and maybe some sanity.

On edit: spelling
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. I've already lost
almost nine grand, all told. But if I don't help him, who will?

He's not in a position to do it for himself!
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
25. When he was released from jail did he enter a half-way house?
If he did - didn't they help him find a job? And one last question is your congressperson Dem or Repug?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. He never went to jail
for a long term; in fact, he was only in jail until he pled guilty, at which time he was released... :wtf:

Also, his probation was so slight he could have legally driven a school bus... that is, if any school would hire a sex offender to drive a bus.
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
107. i lost more than that in a similar situation...
...the truth is -- the money is gone, the time is gone, all you have to work with is what you have in front of you today.

You cannot live another man's life. You are cheating him of his own life and of his own solutions. People go to jail -- yes, innocent people do go to jail -- and they can either make something of the experience and the opportunity, or they can continue to whine and look for other people to take advantage of. It's their choice. Theirs. Not yours.

I know you think you are helping, but you are hurting. Not just yourself -- you know you are hurting yourself but you don't respect yourself enough to care. (At least that was what I was doing, forgive me if I am making an assumption.) *You are hurting this man you think you are helping.* You are preventing him from discovering his own life, his own solutions. You can't imagine a better life for him. You have found no solutions other than your bank account and your couch. So why not use a little tough love and allow him to discover his own initiative, his own solutions? I am not as mean and heartless as I may sound, but I had to learn the hard way that providing "economic outpatient aid" is actually hurtful. Would you take a hand-out? For three years? I wouldn't. I would feel it degrading. So why do we assume that others are less sensitive than ourselves?

Send him on his way. He won't thank you today. But in five years you could be very surprised.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. Is he on probation?
What is the situation as far as when his debt is paid to society? Is there an end to this situation in the near future like a year or two?

Does he have any family - mother, sister somewhere else he can live for a time?

You asked for advice and all I've given you were questions, sorry. Just trying to think of a way for you to get through this.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. He's off probation
ONLY because I paid his fines and restitution. Thatw as two years ago. If I hadn't, he'd still be on probation, and *I* still wouldn't be able to have beer in the fridge because it would violate HIS terms of probation.

He pled guilty to a crime he didn't commit on his lawyer's incompetant advice. No other lawyer in the state will touch that because it would be 'going after one of their own' (lawyer's words, not mine).

He paid for his crime with the loss of his daughter. Even though he's paying child support, his ex won't let him see her; even though they have 'joint custody', that means nothing when the ex is 300 miles away. His car... is my car, which I need to get to work.

We ARE in counseling. It's not helping at all.

I've taken responsibility for this guy, for the better or worse for me. I *have* to consider what might happen to him... it's just not in me to abandon the situation. I'm all he has left- shit, his grandmother died on the 13th of this month and his mom just told him TODAY that she died! His family is most certainly NOT an option to help him. I am, quite literally, ALL he has.
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madmax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Every problem has a solution but, I'm not sure we'll find it tonight
I've heard of someone in a very similar situation. Falsely accused etc.

Seems like today is a watershed day learning about his grandmother's death on top of everything else.

Try another lawyer. You may have to see 2 or 3 but there are lawyers out there who will go against one of their own.

I realize it's easy for me to say but, try to calm down just for tonight. Just want you to know that I care and all those who've posted care.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. He ran out
of lawyer pages in the phone book. Yes, he tried ALL of them, in succession.

None were willing to take the case.
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Girlfriday Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
5. What do you mean mentally unbalanced?
Would he hurt you?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Never.
But he *would* hurt someone else, given a reason.... which, for him, is a lower bar than it is for you or me.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. hmmm
1. Are you in separate counseling, or joint counseling? You need to be able to tell a counselor how you feel and may not be able to with him there.

2. It sounds to me as if this guy could do some kind of work that doesn't require someone to hire him and vet his background. What is he good at? Any crafts or woodworking or that kind of thing? LOTS of people make money doing craft shows and art shows. Any computer skills? Any fixit skills? How about flea-marketing and/or eBay? It's possible to make a LOT of money on eBay.

3. Is he trustworthy with your money?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. He's a natural
regarding security, like securing a facility, etc., and like I said, he has a CDL-A. He got THAT when he was 18.

The only things he knows how to do are the things that were voided by his conviction. I'm sure that figured into his ex-wife's plans.

She went out to ruin him, body and soul, and she accomplished her goal with precision and complete impunity.
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jafap Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. tell Bob to do something Presidential
Goto a temp service and lie about his conviction. What is the worst thing that could happen? He gets fired which leaves him no worse off than he is now.
Also, never, never, never get a cash advance. Those places charge about 3000% percent interest. Get two credit cards and pay them in full every month. The trick is that a credit card sends you a bill on the 10th which is due the 25th. So if you use the card on the 11th of March, for example, the bill is not due until the 25th of April. Bingo, you have postponed paying a bill for about 45 days. So, with two cards, you have one which bills on the 1st of the month, which you use from the 1st to the 15th, and the other bills on the 15th, which you use from the 16th to the 30th. (You can call most of them and change your billing date).
If you already have credit cards which are maxed out - simply apply for a new one (you must be getting pre-approved offers in the mail) and do a balance transfer. The trick is, after you transfer your balance to a card - do not spend any money on it. I have one card which has a 3.9% rate for the life of the loan. I maxed that card out by having them send me checks (about $3000). Then I used that money on my house payments which saved me 5.5% interest.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. not great advice
He may have a restriction on his status that would get him in a lot of trouble if he lied about his conviction! He might be put in custody.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. HOW is he paying child support?
Do you mean that YOU are paying his child support?
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. I'm gonna play armchair shrink here...
...and just ask if you have had any other dependent relationships like this before Bob, and also if you had any issues with your dad? Needing to be a rescuer is sometimes a very complicated thing.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Dad was gone
a GREAT deal during my chilhood. I didn't really get to know him until I was in my early 20s.

I'm 28 now; dad died last year.

I don't 'need' to be his rescuer; but if I don't do it, nobody will. He's not in a position to help himself.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Why Does it Have To Be You?
Why are you throwing your life away on a man whose previous job was rent-a-cop? Why are you settling for so little - less than that, a divorced convict with no job and no desire to help himself?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Gee
Maybe it's just because I have a heart that's too good for my own good and I can't stand to see someone in his position. Or maybe it's that my sense of justice is deeply, personally offended at what happened to him and I want to help.

Maybe it's because I love him. Why are you so hell-bent on the idea that he's using me? That isn't the case at all.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Not My Idea
You're the one who can't fill up the gas tank. You're the one who posted about how much money he's bled from you, and how you can't stand to live that way any more.

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
32. I was.
Only because if he didn't pay support while on probation he'd have gone to jail. Now... I stopped, he has no income, you can't squeeze blood from a stone. His ex makes a lot of noise, but thus far, has taken no action.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Ok
First, ALL temp services here do background checks. Have a felony? You aren't eligible to sweep the stables.

I have one CC with almost 9K on it and I WILL NOT, EVER, get another one. Ever. Once this card is paid off, I'm never EVER using one again.

No CC company will transfer an almost 9K balance; I've tried. They simply won't do it. I'll have to have 2 cards, woth 2 payment schedules, and 2 seperate contracts, and 2 seperate interest schemes. I can't deal with that. I won't.

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jafap Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
76. with that much debt
You might consult a bankruptcy lawyer. The "horror stories" abound about people who write off lots of debt and keep all of their stuff.
I am a very disciplined spender. I always pay my credit cards in full. I still think you would be better off if you transfered some of it. You could set the payments for the same date. Two bills should be easier to deal with than some other things. Also, although it only works for the long run - if you have a good payment history you can call them and ask for a better interest rate. Sometimes better rates are there for the asking.
I was thinking that there must be employers who do not do much in the way of background checks - bars, carnivals, factories that are starting new lines, maybe a band is looking for a sound man or a roadie, etc. They certainly do not fingerprint everywhere so if you "accidentally" mis-spell your name or get a digit wrong in your SSI or transposed you could get your foot in the door. There is a factory in this town which employs people who are still in prison. In Mason City, Iowa there was a guy at the job service who would have these "one day jobs" like unloading a truck of refrigerators was one I remember. If there is something like that, he can earn a little cash and make some contacts.
I totally sympathise with the frustrations of job searching. I still do not have a full time job (only a decent part-time job), but I also do not mind having no money most of the time. Then again, my ceiling fell in today, and I banged my thumb pretty hard as I was repairing it, so the cheap life has its downfalls.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #76
99. I did.
They told me there was no practical need for me to declare it. In fact, the lawyer I went to almost flat-out refused to help me file. She basically threw me outta the office...
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
112. are you sure this isn't depressiin talking?
It is quite easy to do a transfer balance on $5,000. At one time I was in CC debt in the tune of almost $40,000. I had no problem keeping track and switching balances around to make sure I wasn't paying high interest -- often I paid no interest. It just wasn't that hard. Balancing all of two credit card accounts with $5,000 on each seems like child's play to me. You don't make $100 an hour so if you spend an extra hour each month on your bills to save $100 (or more) in interest fees than that is an extremely well-paid hour to spend on your new hobby of saving money. It is very much well worth the effort to do this. I must have balanced 10 or 12 different accounts at one time and I'm now debt-free with no bankruptcy or late pays in my record. However, as I have a very low income, I was also EXTREMELY careful to always get those minimum payments out there to keep my credit clean. Sometimes I think it is easire for low income people to keep our credit clean, because more middle class incomes such as your 40K do not fully realize that you must play to win just to survive.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Get Out
You are not responsible for anyone but yourself, and you are suffering as a result of trying to take this man's burdens as your own. His situation is ruining your life, and it doesn't sound as though he's doing anything to make things better. And why should he, when someone will pay his fines, restitution, child support, food, shelter and buy him beer?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. He submitted
over 300 job apps this year alone! He gave up when he ran out of businesses to apply to. He'd have to start at the top of the list again, and literally everywhere he's applied to, he hasn't gotten a call back.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Not Good Enough
Submitting applications isn't good enough. Has he been submitting them places where he knows he doesn't have a chance in hell of getting hired? That would be my guess. If illegals can get work, why can't he? Too good for that kind of work?

Bottom line - HE is the one who decided to plead guilty (and hearing only his side of the story, there's no way to tell what happened) knowing what would happen. He found a sucker to make his problems go away. YOU are the sucker.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I've read the documents
and I can say, in all honesty, he was railroaded.

Not even McDonald's will call him back. Not even the store I worked at in my teens, where I knew people and could give him a reference.

ALL businesses in my area do background checks. If they don't, it's the employment gap they pay attention to. In either case, he's a screwed pooch.

BTW- I'm no sucker; I knew exactly what I was getting into, I just had NO idea it would go for this long, cost this much, and puch me down this deep.

I don't know if I'd refused if I *had* known.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Well, Then: Bed, Made, Lie
Apparently you want this kind of life. It's easy to tell that HE does - and who wouldn't! I would LOVE to have someone pay off all my obligations while I am completely and totally irresponsible about every aspect of my life!

The more you say he was railroaded, the more I think he plead guilty for a reason. Someone had to tell him what was in store for him, even his "incompetent" lawyer.

Incompetent lawyer ... scheming ex-wife ... unfair system ... Sounds like the cry of the North American Loser to me, completely unwilling to take responsibilty for anything. If he were any kind of man, he would have never done this to you. Ever.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Like I said,
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 03:34 AM by kgfnally
I've read the court transcripts, which is more than you can say. I *know* he has told me the truth of what happened; I've read it.

And if *you* were any kind of HUman, you'd be willing to do the same thing I have.

edit: DONT FUCKING INSULT THE PEOPLE I LOVE.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Then Don't Ask For Advice
I understand you're in denial, and it will take a while before you finally realize what you have allowed. I hope that point doesn't come because he's injured you.

You're not being "any kind of human" - you're being a doormat. It's no insult to me that I do not roll over and support irresponsible convicts for years and years while they do nothing to support their own children or pay their own restitution. I have a full tank of gas and plenty of groceries.
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jafap Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #36
85. what makes you think he is happy with it?
Does 300 job applications sound like a state of happiness? What alternatives do you think he has at this point?
You have not heard him blame the rest of the world. She has described things that way. What good is personable responsibility when there is no personal power? You cannot make the economy provide you with a job. At least I have not been able to. Although he should do some follow up calling himself that may not do any good. One time I decided I was going to keep bugging the manager of the local Country Kitchen until he gave me a job washing dishes. I must have talked to him about six times, went to dinner there with my pastor and my dentist, but I never did get a job there. I do not remember if I gave up or got another job first. I walked to another factory once when it was twenty below zero to show them they I could get to work under any conditions. The HR person said he would hire me when he got an opening, but he never called. (Tell me the system is not a crock of shit. I told him that I was going to move when my building sold (and that ended up taking three years) and he said that was a reason not to hire me, because I would not be there long term. A friend of mine got in right away because his mom knew somebody - and then he quit after two weeks. Boy that was sure long term.)
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. would he...
...try to hurt you if you asked him to leave? You need to consider that and prepare in advance if that's the road you choose.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Sounds Like
He'd be safely in jail, and no longer a threat and a drain on her life.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
41. my dear..
...what kind of family do YOU have? Anyone nearby? Other friends? Did you give up friends because of him?

Is it possible that not wanting to let him go is because he's like a member of your family?

And another question -- were you married before?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. I have
a mom who betrayed my trust when I was 19 (botted me out for being gay, pulled ALL my college funding, forced me out of school, and has entered my dwelling places five times total in the past nine years, and has called me once in the past year), I have a sister who hasn't EVER been in any of the places I've lived.

No, I have never been married.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #44
77. ahhhh, I forgot , sorry
So you are a gay man who has taken in another man who for at least a time lived as a straight man with a wife and kids. They split up because of some sex crime he may or may not have been guilty of.
Come on K, stop being a victim and stop letting him be a victim. Neither one of you is being helped by this situation.

Keep beating your head against the wall or stop beating your head against the wall. Those are your options. You aren't helping him and you aren't helping you. You are actually causing some of his problem by allowing him to be dependent on you for your own gratification. That's not love.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
40. You sound
exactly like my mom.

Why are some people so opposed to the idea that someone might give selflessly to someone else? Is it that you're saying I shouldn't be complaining, since I took this on willingly?

Are you trying to say I deserve the situation I'm in? For trying to help when no one else- not even his own family- would do so?

If I give up, this guy sinks to the bottom. End of story.

I can't have that on my conscience.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. and ANOTHER question....
...(I'm full of them, but I'm really trying to see all the angles and you DID ask for advice).....

How do you know he might hurt someone else in certain situations?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. Well
Depression has gotten the best of him, to some extent. He feels utterly worthless, as if there's nothing he CAN do because no one will give him a chance. The more he gets rejected and ostracized- by people like REP- the deeper into it he goes. It's a very viscious and insidious cycle.... one I'm personlly familiar with.

The more often he gets rejected, the angrier and more irrational he gets.

I honestly don't blame him.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Your Mother Is A Wise Woman, Then
There's a difference between helping someone and being used. Or maybe you like him being dependent on you; you like having that power. Either way, it's crossed the line and it's time to go.

You're the one who posted about how terribly depressed you are and how you hate the way you are living. Eventually, you will be able to break free. Until then, when publicly post about your situation, expect that others will instantly be able to see that you are being taken for a ride. Just like your mother.

You asked for advice. That is mine.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. honestly...
....I would cry my eyes out if my daughter were in such a situation and depressed about it. I really would.

How about letting Mom go to the counseling session, too?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. Mom
hates him, ever since he tried to call her to discuss problems *I* was having, and she blew him off. He called her some petty name or other, and even after more than a year, she hates him. Just for that.

My dad, before he died, told Bob he could consider himself a member of our family.

For my part, well, I hate my mom. But that's another story entirely.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #49
55. kgf, listen carefully
Your admission that this man is depressed and angry is a red flag warning.

Unless you are a mental health therapist, your efforts can't help him get past this. He has too much trouble for a 28-year-old to bear.

You need to do something for yourself now. Counseling isn't the answer. You need to talk to a lawyer or maybe an old family friend. Maybe the wisest older person you know. A clergyman maybe?

You're at risk, girl. Do something tomorrow. Don't tell him, don't let him know. Just go to someone for help.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. .....
I... I can't leave him. I just can't.

If I do, I will be haunted by my conscience for the rest of my life. I know, I'm the only one here who really knows what his situation is, but please, you all HAVE to believe me when I say that he isn't where he is because of anythign he did to himself, nor is it because of any choice he willingly made.

He is in this situation because OTHER people PUT him there, and then abandoned him to rot. *I* am not willing to let that stand. And yes... *I*, alone among his friends, family, even the state and country we live in, I and ONLY I have been *willing* to help.

Not just able... but willing. No one else is.

If I leave him tomorrow, I stop looking at myself in the mirror. Doing so would be nothing less than a despicable and dishonorable betrayal of trust, love, AND friendship.

I can't have that on my soul.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #61
89. Kg, he IS responsible for the situation YOU are in. If he loved you
he wouldn't make you suffer like this. He would walk away, and let you live your life.

As it stands, you enable all his problems.

There are indeed many jobs he could do, such as dog walking, grooming, taxes, housecleaning, lawn care. I hear excuses, not reasons.

Your conscience would indeed survive if you decided he had to get his shit together and get out of your life until he got his together. You two happen to be addicted to the drama here. The problem is, you wouldn't have anything to be angsted over, were he to leave.

There comes a time when a person says that enough is enough. When that person places their needs above another who can be self sufficient, the problems get solved.

He was treated unfairly, sure, but so what? Shit happens. He's not married to you, you're not responsible for his problems. He brought this all on himself and dragged you into the pit of dispair with him, and so what if he's submitted 300 applications? What classes has he taken at Community College? What's he done to secure his own future, other than leech off you? He's a grown man.

You have to know that were you to pack his bag and put it on the porch he wouldn't starve or end up dead. He's fully capable of taking care of himself; he's not 4.

Can you handle the idea of his giving up his complete dependence on you?

Think of how EASY your life would be without him in it. Think of walking in the door and NOT seeing him stretched out on the couch. Think of him NOT snoring there all night long. Think of NOT buying his beer... of NOT having to complain about the lack of money. Think of all the time you'd have on your hands NOT thinking about his drama day in and day out.

You'd be free.

Some people can't handle the thought of freedom.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #89
106. your post hinges on
him being able to take care of himself. That's simply isn't the case.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. Why? He's four years old? I hear EXCUSES NOT REASONS...
Move on.
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
113. why is your soul more important than his future?
I was the same as you, and it is hard to hear it and hard for me to say it -- hell, I'm crying right now -- but you must, you must, you MUST forget about your soul. It isn't about you. It isn't about feeling good. It isn't about looking in the mirror and being satisfied that you are such a wonderful person you stood by him when all else failed him.

It should be about HIM. And, right now, you are cheating him by putting him in a position where his knees are kicked out from under him and he has no strength to hit bottom so that he can go through the process of putting his own life together.

The sooner you let him hit bottom, the sooner you let him find his way, the sooner he has a chance to find himself and have a real life. Jail is not the greatest tragedy, living on the street is not the greatest tragedy. The greatest tragedy is the life unlived because of learned helplessness.

It is the hardest thing to do to walk away but it is the right thing to do. PM me later if you like. I am not the most tactful person, but I've been there, I know what you are feeling, I know it's hard.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #40
109. Giving Selflessly?
Why are some people so opposed to the idea that someone might give selflessly to someone else? Is it that you're saying I shouldn't be complaining, since I took this on willingly?

If you were perfectly okay with this selfless giving, you would never have made this thread.

If all you want is sympathy, you'll get plenty.

If it's advice you want, no one here (or anywhere) has a magic wand we can wave around and make your life *perfect.*

As has been stated above, there's nothing stopping your man from picking up a rake and hitting the neighborhood for oddjobs and such. But why should he, when he's got you to lean on?
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
53. You are in a toxic relationship.. It will NOT get better
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 03:48 AM by SoCalDem
I know this is not what you want to hear, but you need to get out for your own peace of mind and mental health..

Some people are just too damaged to "fix".. The problems that he has had in his life have nothing to do with you, but you are making them YOUR problems by being his caretaker..

Run...don't walk, to the nearest exit...

If you have to call his probation officer, do it.. They will get him a new place to stay.. Don't let him "guilt" you into being his "Mommy"...


If it's meant to be, let it be on your terms...at a time in the future when he has his life together..
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. I was
even more depressed when I lived alone. I don't think I could handle it again.

Telling, isn't it?
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Get a pet..invite a friend (platonic) to move in with you
adopting an adult with more problems that you already have, is no solution :)
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #58
67. The problems have snowballed
since I met him.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. bingo, there ya go.
"I was even more depressed when I lived alone. I don't think I could handle it again."


That's what I sensed.

Hanging onto a very flawed guy who makes you depressed just so you won't be depressed again by living alone?

Hmm. Think about it!

You need a big hug and a fresh start, kid! There are plenty of people in the world waiting to love a smart young woman!
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Man.
:)
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. I think maybe
my root problem is that I need to be needed.

No one has ever had a need for me to be part of their life before.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #56
94. Aha!
You'd rather have a life of misery than a life of even colorless gray?

Sigh. I used to think that, too.

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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. kgf?
Maybe the trouble with your mom ISN'T another story. Maybe you're hanging onto Bob because of trouble with Mom.

But working that relationship out isn't the primary task at hand. Your safety is the immediate concern.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. I'm not worried about my safety
I'm worried about his sanity.

And mine.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. I understand.
Sit tight for a minute. I want to look something up to post here.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. ok
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. I thought....
...you should read the warning signs for what is considered emotional battering. I have no idea if this applies, but you should know what it is, since many women get in situations without that information. This is from a web site for women. You don't need to answer any of these here, just read them.

If you are unsure if you are in an abusive relationship, take the time to answer the following questions. Think about how you are being treated and how you treat your partner. Remember, when one person scares, hurts and continually puts down the other, it's abuse:

Are you afraid of your partner?
Do you feel as if you have to walk on pins and needles sometimes to keep your partner from getting angry?
Has your partner ever hit, slapped or pushed you?
Do you ever feel as if you deserve to be punished?
Do you ever feel as if you've done something wrong but you just can't figure out what it is?
Have you lost all respect or love for your partner?
Is your partner good to you most of the time -- sometimes downright wonderful -- but every once in a while very cruel or scary?
Does your partner drive you crazy or make you feel as if you're going crazy?
Do you find yourself sometimes thinking of ways of killing your partner?
Have you believed that your partner would kill you?
Has your partner told you that he or she would kill you?
Has your partner threatened to commit suicide?
Were you abused as a child?
Has your partner forced you to do something you didn't want to do?
Have you lost all or most of your friends since you've been with your partner?
Do you feel isolated, as if there's nowhere to turn for help, and think that no one would believe you anyway?
Have you lost a job because of your partner?
Do you feel emotionally numb?

If any of these statements ring true, talk to someone. You can call the Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) (TTY 1-800-787-3224), where you can talk to a professional in complete confidence.

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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:09 AM
Response to Original message
68. So what is in this relationship for you?
Does he do the housework, is he cooking the meals? Why do you love him? What is there to love about him? What is in it for you? What is he adding to your life?

I ask because you are depressed and you feel like there is no solution and I understand that feeling. I know what it is like to be frozen in space unable to know if I should turn left or right. It is horrible. I wish I could tell you how much I care about you and what you are going through.

But there is something that you are not facing here and until you do you will be stuck and you will get more and more depressed.

Even the victim said he was asleep, but he plead guilty?
He married the all powerful (over him and the justice system apparently) bitch from hell who got him convicted of a sex crime and then divorced him while he was in custody and ended up with everything? How the hell did she manage that convenient timing?

What is her side of the story?

Why didn't his mother contact him for a week when his mother died? Is there a problem between them? If so, why?

The system is against him and he is less employable than even illegal aliens who don't speak english? You can't start a yard business and let him do the work so that he can pay you back? He can't find one shitty restuarant that will let him wash dishes without a background check?

Did his conviction or the circumstances of the crime involve alcohol and or drugs?

Daddy abandoned you. What was his excuse? Are you sure you aren't fixing daddy?

If you are determined to stay in this situation and allow him to be defeated while you pay for everything then you are going to have to find a way to lower your expenses. Move to a cheaper apartment, perhaps a efficiency in the worst section of town? Can you sell your car and get a cheaper one? Cut back on the groceries? Lower the heat to 62 in the winter and wear sweaters? Do you have china or silver you can sell to get rid of your credit card debt? Can he collect bottles and cans? (or is there a background check on that too) He might be able to make 50 to 100 bucks a month that will at least pay towards the Credit Cards.

Maybe you can get a second job? As long as he is taking care of eveything at home, what would it hurt you to spend another 5 or 6 hours at another job? You could do customer service or telemarketing. How about phone sex? All you would have to do is sit at a desk and talk. You'd be tired but you would be getting out of debt.

You see, you always have options. You just have to be realistic about what they are.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. ouch
"my root problem is that I need to be needed. No one has ever had a need for me to be part of their life before."

See?

You knew all the time what the problem is. He makes you feel needed, and you need very badly to be needed.

You didn't even need a shrink. You knew all the time exactly what is driving this.

But now can you admit that your need is putting you in a bad situation?


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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. To reply
Her father was her divorce lawyer, and the judge that handled the criminal case was none other than the infamous 'Jenny Jones Trial' judge. His case was right after that one. He was tried in Oakland County, a place renowned for railroading the disenfranchised. His attorney reportedly had a personal relationship at the time with the D.A.

His lawyer got him to plead guilty by telling him that if convicted he would spend 35 years in Jackson, a place where sex offenders are well known to have an in-prison lifespan of months at best. Told he would be ab;e to see his daughter and only get probation if he pled guilty, well... it was a nonchoice (he wasn't aware of, nor did his lawyer inform him of, the sex offender registry law, nor did his lawyer call ANY character witnesses, which included a Sunday School teacher and a federal marshal, among others).

Bob was a heavy drinker at the time of his conviction. He isn't now.

His family is the type that doesn't communicate. His own parents ostracized him after he got convicted. He has NO emotional support from ANY relations, for ANY reason. They simply will not give him the time of day.

As for ME getting a second job.... I'm considering it.

"Daddy abandoned you. What was his excuse? Are you sure you aren't fixing daddy?"

What does that have to do with anything? It was in response to a question someone else asked. No 'fixing' involved.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #74
79. what was the nature of the sex crime?
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 05:39 AM by Cheswick
I am betting it was sex with a minor and that Bob was drunk or high at the time.

What does it have to do with fixing daddy? All of us get into relationships to resolve issue with our parents.

Hey, be just as miserable as you want for as long as you want. Obviously this relationship suits your needs to have a dependent and depressed captive relationship. You get to be a martyr and, in your mind at least, the hero. Why are you depressed? You have exactly what you want.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
70. You are an enabler: plain and simple
Look, I used to be like you, but, excuse me, it it NOT healthly to be a NURSE for someone. This has to stop. I know I sound cold, but I was married to a very handsome man (long time ago) who was f*cked up. and I was a "nurse" to him and I have learned.

Just because some people are OLD or MENTALLY ILL dies not make themn good people. Believe me.

Take my advice and leave this person alone; your life will be better in ONE day.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. look
If your mother didn't have some sort of need for you in her life, she wouldn't be troubled by your situation.

Are you sure about her feelings?

Sometimes a lot of crap gets in the way with mothers and daughters.

Would she be there for you if you told her you needed help with this situation? That would be excellent.

However, if that is too uncomfortable, there are other people who could help.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. maybe something like this could happen....
....maybe you could find a way for a "separation" while you work on your problems and he works on his problems.

Maybe you could find an agency like the Salvation Army or a church group that could find housing for him and some work and counseling. I do believe that it is in the best interest of the taxpayers that he stay out of prison.

If you were living apart, he could make some progress, I think. And you could get some relief.

What do you think about something like that? I think it would tell you a lot about what kind of effort he can make to recover.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. kgf?
I'm going to bed now. Please check in here tomorrow and let us know how things are going. Obviously, a lot of people care about you here and are willing to share their experiences and their best wishes.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #75
81. Grasswire, K is a gay man
Sounds like he has a mom who loves him.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. really?
I had no idea. I probably gave some dumb advice, then. I just hope he's bigger than Bob.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. no, the advice is probably the same
good advice is universal
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
83. Kgfnally, I care about you. I want to let you know that
I am a tough love kind of person. I learned to be that way after years of abuse and tons of alcoholic and disfunctional people in my life. I have a son not much younger than you and I suppose that had I started having children at 17 or 18 I could be your mother. So I talk to you as I would one of my sons.

The problem with message boards is that when I write the things I do here, you can not see the love and concern on my face.
Please understand that everyone here has answered because they care about you.
Please continue to let us know how you are doing.
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lfairban Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
86. Two things occur to me . . .
. . . but neither really sound good.

The first is to write a book, or have him write it. If neither of you have good writing skills, maybe you can find someone who does for a collaboration. The experience might be cathartic, but I imagine it would be just plain painful. I remember that Michael Moore said that he still can't watch "Roger and Me". It could be a way to generate some funds, and find some sympathetic people.

The second would be to move to Canada. They might not be as able to complete the background check that seem to be the major impediment to employment he is facing.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
87. hmmmm....
If I am reading all this correctly, it sounds to me as if there are three problems here. (1) You are painfully lonely and 28. (2) "Bob" is a very costly and problematic person to help, and older than yourself. (3) You feel sure that you are in love with him, and a dependency-based, perhaps dysfunctional, relationship has gone on for three years.

There are two routes for "Bob". One is exoneration, the other acceptance of a lot as a convicted felon. The first sounds hopeless; you need a significant amount of legal aid and the only real possibility is to attain a pardon, which is unlikely in the absence of much support and significant exonerating evidence. No bureaucrat will risk anything for a blue collar worker, either, except under really extraordinary circumstances.
If he fully accepts his lot, there are things ex-cons do and train as- in my state, many apparently go into auto mechanics and junkyards and in relatives' businesses in back rooms. You will have to find out from the knowledgeable in such things (parole officers, other ex-cons, etc) what the usual sort of thing is in your area. The attitude employers expect is fatalism about the past and cool disinterest in any entanglement with law enforcement or the past, no aggressiveness or direct assertions of having been wronged and wanting to reargue things. Everybody in blue collar jobs gets wronged and gets pain inflicted on them, there is just not much sympathy out there; some just receive more than others, and (as you know) sex offenders are forgiven what they inflict the least.

What concerns me is where you are going. Whatever happens to him or your relationship, he ultimately has his children. And you will not be able to compete with that loyalty at some (likely very bitter) point.

I think you have to think long and hard about your relationship. Maybe it is soulmates, companions to and beyond the grave. Perhaps not. Perhaps it is based on acute needs, and the needs may be such that they will destroy one or the other of you if left unmet (and your posting beginning this threads points in that direction). But consider it may also be that when the needs of one person in the relationship are fully met, that person will unheedingly move on.

It sounds to me that you have helped Bob along for three years. He has in that time overcome a drinking problem and given you much in the way of time well spent. He has not settled with his ex-wife or children, or a wastage of a large part of his life, nor found people who find his skills and presence worth paying for, and has probably cost you on the order of $20-$30 k in total. These are all explicable and excusable to the extent that you find selflessness of a kind what you feel compelled to represent.

But you are probably growing out of that phase of your life. One way to look at it is that you have been living the "bargaining" phase of the Kuebler-Ross grieving process relative to your birth family- that somehow you can sacrifice your way to love that you wish for, and you have not been terribly picky about the source. Another is that you have learned more of the lessons of adulthood, which have no orderly sequence, through this particular relationship. But at some point the lesson at bottom of this chapter of your life becomes clear, and then you change and relationships change somehow inexorably; each chapter or phase or stage is like this.

I would assert to you that you have done enough for "Bob", to the point that you probably cannot really do much more for him without diminishing your own life in greater measure than you improve his. You can and probably should see about what one could satirically call The Ex-Con Non-Penitential Career Path of your area and see that he finds his way onto it. And then you must get to living your own life again, doing the growth that has been held back and stunted in the past year or two. That is not selfishness, though most go that route; it is survival as a being with a functional spirit or soul, and it matters at least as much as anyone's happiness.

You must choose to run out into the square and live, and when to. I don't know whether it entails breaking up your relationship or not. But the point of one's best relationship is to enhance each others' lives, not to make the sum of the two less than the two individually. Look at- and really Hear- some hard calls to life. I prefer Tennyson's Ulysses (ignoring the pomp and listening to the insight and determination and oblique humility, of course):

http://eir.library.utoronto.ca/rpo/display/poem2191.htm...

<....>

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.


Have courage. That is my advice to you in most abbreviated form.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Wow! KGFINALLY READ THIS POST!!
I can't think of a single thing to add to this. Good job, Lexingtonian!

Kgfinally, you must ultimately do what's best for you.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
88. For any hope for you and your friend's happiness
you MUST make major changes in this situation......this will only get worse until one or both of you self-destruct IMO.
Read those books from the 80s or so about co-dependency.......classic examples of relationships many of us have had to deal with in our lives.
Unless you can both get into counselling together to get each of you out of this dependency, splitting is the only alternative.

It's tough as hell, but something you must face and get through for any chance of a better life.
I would tell this to my kids if they were in this situation...... :-(

All the best,
DemEx

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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
91. Kgf, I can't believe no one has asked.......
are you on any medication for clinical depression? Several years ago I was absolutely miserable, unmotivated, taking no enjoyment in things that typically brought me happiness. After 6 weeks on a mild anti-depressant, I recovered my spirits and was far better prepared to take charge of my life. He (your partner), also, probably needs medical help. I know many people think its a sign of weakness, but I think its just good sense. Better living through chemistry!

I've been in your situation (on a MUCH) smaller scale and my heart really goes out to you. I had a dear friend with a BS in design engineering and an unfortunate tendency to drive his car naked. After his third arrest, he was unemployable in our rural southern area. His wife stayed with him (he was bi-sexual)and they survived-barely. I don't know if he ever got a job. Several years after I left town I heard he had died-no details.

You're in a no-win situation. Know that you have people here who care about you and want to see you come through this. Don't give into depression. You can't afford self-pity right now.

We can't help who we love and you are a loyal and loving friend (although a thoroughly co-dependant one). I have no answers, just a prayer that things will get better for you.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
92. Kgfnally, The Most Practical Thing I Can Suggest
is that your boyfriend temporarily do something which does not require a job application. Step 1: He can look for side jobs as a painter or handyman, whatever his skills allow. He can hand out fliers in middle-class neighborhoods with old houses and hand out fliers. If he doesn't have the skills, he can be a street vendor. Maybe other DUers have suggestions. The salary is less important than the work.

Step 2: after he has had a few clients or a period of making money, he can begin submitting job applications again describing himself as independently employed for the last three years. This takes care of the job gap.

I don't know you or he feel about this. I'm generally a very honest person, but in this situation I would not hesitate at all to stretch the truth. It's too important, and what employers really want is to have their ass covered and get a reliable person. He will not be cheating them. The goal is to find a way to get the gap filled.

The other option is to pick up and leave the US for awhile. Teach English, be a translator, or something where an American employee is desired. Just something to think about.

I'll write more about your personal situation.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #92
95. Just a suggestion
Don't try to become a translator unless you know a foreign language well enough to read a weekly newsmagazine without a dictionary.

Just a comment from a professional translator. :-)

Now, you have not answered the question of whether Bob is acting as "househusband" for you, or whether he is spending the day playing couch potato. If he is doing the housework and cooking, you at least have an indication that he is grateful for what you have done. If he's not willing to do even that but look up sleepily from the couch and greets you with, "What's for dinner?" when you come home, then you have in your house is not a friend, but a leech.

If he's not currently doing the housework and yardwork, propose that he do so. In fact, insist that he do so. See how he reacts.

My stepfather's brother is stuck with a middle-aged son who has never decided on a career and always has excuses for not getting a job. I'm not talking about a stretch of hard luck--I'm talking about an able-bodied, reasonably intelligent man who has never held a full-time job, no matter what the economy. Why should he, when his parents are suckers and not only give him money but also come around trying to get my stepfather to give him money.

If Bob lived in Portland, he could go stand in front of the 7-11 at 12th and E. Burnside at dawn with the illegal immigrants and get picked up for day labor. I'm sure that every city has such a gathering spot. Find out where it is, and tell him that he has to go there and get a job. Don't let him give you the line about how he's too good or too sensitive for such menial work. When I had to, I worked industrial temp, which is equivalent to day labor at times, and I already had a Ph.D.

By your own admission, you're driving yourself into the ground. Put on the brakes and make that leech pull his own weight.

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #95
103. He does do the housework.
In fact, he does basically all of it. And he intends to fork over a big chunk of his disability checks when they start coming in. He really *does* want to try to pay me back, it's just that he's not in anyposition to do so right now.

That is, he'll do this IF he gets the disability checks. That's still up in the air, he's been approved, but still needs to keep some appointments that haven't rolled around just yet to make it happen.

And yes, I agree, that isn't exactly the same as pulling his own weight. But it may be all we can get.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
93. Call Me Naive, But I Had No Idea
the American legal system was so perverse.

"...if I throw him out, he goes directly to jail, as our motherfucking unconstitutional as hell sex offender registry requires that he has a residence or he automatically commits a felony for not having a permamant address and goes directly to prison!"

It really puts the screws on you, doesn't it?

I can't believe it's constitutional, but who's going to go to bat for the rights of sex offenders (whether or not they're even guilty)?
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. It isn't constutional
but no lawyers will touch it. At all.

At least, not in my state.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
96. Kgfnally, You've Been Accused of Being an Enabler
and frankly, I can't tell if it's justified or not.

Normally, an enabler helps another person to avoid the consequences of an addiction or other weakness. That doesn't apply if your boyfriend was innocent. If he's looked for work in 300 places, it doesn't sound like he's being dependent, lazy or taking advantage of you.

Enablers are usually told to begin letting the other person feel the consequences of his or her actions. But if the joblessness is not the result of his actions, that doesn't really hold. And the consequences of not supporting him are a prison sentence, during which he may get the same treatment reserved for actual child rapists. I don't see how you can be criticized for keeping someone you love from that fate.

At the same time, maybe there are some patterns of behavior that may be common to your situation. I've never read any of these books, but it might help to take a look at some of them. Maybe some of the same attitudes have built up, and you've adopted ways of thinking that are destroying your peace of mind. If you have health coverage that pays for talking to a personal counselor, it might give you an emotional boost just to talk to someone. (I certainly have, and I loved it.) Being burdened with the problems of someone you love is nothing new.






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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
97. My Personal Experience
Note: I'm writing a ton of stuff here when I should be working. Your post really touched something.

Difficult personal situations are really hard to read. Nothing is a stereotype, and there are different ways of looking at any situation. Half of all advice is worthless. But it helps me to hear other people's stories. I had someone dependent on me for years, too, in ways that were not very pleasant much of the time:

In my 20's, after gradutating from collage, I took care of an older man with a degenerative disease for 4 1/2 years until he died. He had been a lit professor and minister, and he was writing a book on the Christian theory of literature. As a Jewish child, he had escaped Germany just before the war and had no living family. I took care of John along with several college friends. We thought he was a special individual who had a lot to offer and that this was an important thing for us to do.

In addition to physically helping John, I helped support him with a series of temporary and odd jobs because his disability check didn't cover expenses. I helped him live a life he could not have lived otherwise. He was grateful and spent a lot of time helping me with my own problems (he was a tough and insightful counselor).

I not only learned an enormous amount from conversations and taking dictation, I had a whole spectrum of experiences I would never have had otherwise. I had to grow up, take responsibility, and face certain things. I ended up abandoning a lot of the religious beliefs, but I really don't regret the whole experience.

In a way, I was taken advantage of. It set my career back almost ten years. But John was desperate through no fault of his own. He needed us and tried to repay us. So even though I don't how to interpret my own experience, I empathize with yours.


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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
98. A sincere suggestion coupled with my best wishes for you both...
I am not prostelyzing or attempting to convert you. This is a suggestion I've seen work twice. Whether you are a Christian or not, give a thought to going to a church. Not for Sunday services or fellowship, but for one-on-one support services.

Three blocks from my place, a registered sex offender in his mid 40's moved in with his brother and sister-in-law. For a year and a half he was not able to get a job, felt shunned by everyone he knew and, for all intents and purposes, he just gave up.

The brother and his wife are active members in a small Presbyterian church (this is how I know them) and invited the Pastor over for dinner one evening. The Pastor got to know man in question over the course of the meal and opened his parish to him.

The Pastor made some phone calls, told particular members of the congregation about the man and asked everyone he knew to do what they could to help the situation.

In the following week, the man got a job. Nothing great, mind you- just some proof-reading work at a small publishing company for about $8.00/hr. That was a year ago and just last month, he finally got his own apartment (he's the first to say, "It may be a crappy place to live, but it's *my* crappy place to live"). He doesn't involve himself in the church at all, but he considers many members of the congregation as his closest friends and those members count him as a friend, too.

I guess my suggestion would be thus: locate a small church (those big, huge ones w/ gilding and plush carpeting seem to have a much more.... 'difficult' time assisting people on an individual basis), ask to speak with the Pastor (I'd bet money he will see you and Bob without demeaning either of you or assesing judgement) and discuss what you have told us here.

I have no doubt that the Minister *will* try to help and w/o making either one of you feel that you "owe" him your presence during Sunday services. I'malso fairly sure that the Pastor will meet you at your place if you hint at it to allow Bob and/or you to feel more comfortable.

The most you will lose from this is maybe an evening out of your life (and possibly the cost of a small home-made dinner).

I'm not making any judgement whatsoever re: your religion or lack of it, I'm simply making a sincere suggestion which I think will have positive results- both in the long and the short term.

My prayers are with you, and I hope you and Bob the best in your futures regardless of the path you choose to resolve this problem.

:)

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indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. Yes I think a mainline protestant church
would do that.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. He's done that, too.
This is almost amusing because, in so many many ways, he's already tried most of the suggestions on this thread. His efforts have simply borne no fruit.

Bob is a Wiccan minister, by the way. Don't know how that could work to his benefit.
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
105. you're being used...dump him
He pled guilty because he was guilty. Who would plead guilty to a sex offense, knowing the consequences, if they weren't? But, even if we accept that he is just unusually helpless and clueless and incapable of taking care of himself, who died and made you Jesus? I would call the police and find out how to get him out of my house today.

Three years without a job does not have to be suspicious. He just needs to get off his butt and get a list of places that are now out of business where he can claim that he worked as a landscaper, a busboy, dishwasher...whatever. Clubs and restaurants go in and out of business all the time and for these jobs there is little concern about actually checking references. I've been hired on the spot at plenty of restaurants. The truth is, this is one lazy individual. Kick him out, get a restraining order if necessary, and be on your way. You can't give up your life to some bum loafing on your couch. You know what? Every bum out there has a sad story. Every damn one of them. Finally, the day came when I realized that no bum will ever again get any money from me, nor will he enter my home. I've given many thousands, and all it does is allow the bum to put off having a life.

You are actually enabling him -- giving him an excuse to keep from living his life. Jail has more opportunities to take classes and learn skills than he will find on your couch.

You cannot save him but you can save yourself. The ego boost that comes from "doing good" is not worth the sacrifice of thousands of dollars and your future. And this "ego boost" is also costing him, because he has allowed himself to become a parasite instead of a man. Kicking him out, even if he goes to jail, is the only chance he has to start a new more empowering life.

I am serious. I have followed this advice myself although I didn't end up having to literally call the sheriff to get the bum off my couch.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. That's the thing.
He didn't know the true consequences, because his lawyer pumped his head full of much stiffer punishments than he actually would have received. Second, the "victim" testified in the deposition that Bob was asleep on the couch when the "crime" was committed. Placing the back of one's hand on a kid's crotch in your sleep is criminal sexual conduct in my state. In fact, touching a child ANYWHERE between the knee and the groin- for ANY reason- is a sex offense here. Period.

If he has no residence at the time he registers, he goes to prison, as that's a felony.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #105
114. Funny you should say this...
"Jail has more opportunities to take classes and learn skills than he will find on your couch."

Last year, before our current governor was elected, he tried calling the Gov's office to see if there were any programs available to help him. The Lieutenant Gov told him personally- I was on the other end of the line at the time- you'll love this one...

"If you commit a crime and go back to jail we have programs that can help you."

End quote.

Sick, huh?
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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. it is sick but...
...at least he was being honest.

One of my friends was in Angola Prison in Louisiana. It is an experimental farm and does not have the best reputation but my friend loved it there -- he had his AA meetings where he could get away from alcohol, he had classes, he had various programs where he was able to get into his spirituality. It might seem strange to you or I but for some people prison, even the most notorious prisons, can actually be an opportunity for a fresh start. Some will just find other criminals to hang around with and learn new tricks from, but others will find the group that is looking to turn their lives around. Trouble is, no one can do it for anyone else.
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DrGonzoLives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
108. It's amazing
that there are so many cold-hearted assholes around here. Especially those who just assume that they know everything and don't bother reading over facts. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, this is the internet, and a good number of people simply come here to be assholes.

As for your situation, I'm sorry - the sex offender laws in this country are absolute garbage. They may as well make you were a scarlet "S" all the time.

Have you considered contacting the ACLU? They are big on challenging laws such as this, and may consider doing it pro bono. And, God knows, they are not afraid of taking on incompetent lawyers for fear of "eating their own."

http://www.aclu.org/CriminalJustice/CriminalJustice.cfm...

http://www.aclu.org/CriminalJustice/CriminalJustice.cfm...

http://www.aclu.org/CriminalJustice/CriminalJustice.cfm...

I don't know if they've ever gone after anything in California, but they may be eager to challenge it in a new state.

Good luck, no matter what you do.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #108
115. The ACLU blew him off.
I have no faith in them being able or willing to help.

We can thank a sham scam group called "Citizens for Equal Justice" for that attitude, by the way. Google it.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #108
117. Hey Doc , look again
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 01:33 PM by Cheswick
What you are seeing is a lot of people who have been in the position that the original poster is in and hate to see him this way.

I agree with you that the sex offender laws are garbage. However K is in denial. This is my opinion based on the fact that K has been given plenty of practical advice and all of it is dismissed as impossible. I can not believe anyone is helped by being advised to continue to live in denial.

No one has as bad luck as "Bob". No one is that much of a victim. No one is helped by being allowed to be totally dependent.

The system caused this
his all powerful exwife caused this (who hates him for no particular reason and apparently controls both the criminal and family courts)
now employers are causing his problems

Come on Doc, K himself is giving you all the clues. He says he is miserable, he feels used, he resents the money spent, he is afraid to be alone and he sees himself as being willing to sacrifice his happiness to save Bob and "what is wrong with the rest of us who don't think he is so noble"?
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
116. So you are in Michigan?
I haven't read through the entire thread but got the gist of your problems combined with the assumptions made by others.

The one thing I might offer is that you both need to get out and search for work for him. Not ALL employers conduct background checks and not ALL employers even care about this.

The holiday saeson is coming up and caterers need people to do grunt work. There are many small businesses where his recird is not an issue.

Mailing or sending applications is often not productive even for people who have EVERYTHING going for them.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. I've started a new thread.
Edited on Mon Sep-22-03 01:44 PM by kgfnally
Please continue there.

Mods, please lock this. Thanks. :)

By the way- yes, MI.
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elcondor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-03 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
120. This sounds very suspicious to me
If he was truly innocent or if the trial wasn't conducted in a constitutional manner, I would imagine that dozens of lawyers would be jumping to help Bob. If it is obvious to you (and I'm assuming you've never had any formal legal-training) reading the trial transcript, then it should be obvious to any phone-book lawyer. This doesn't sound as cut-and-dry as you are making it out to be--in my purely unprofessional opinion, you have been dupped by this man. I would like to join the chorus of "leave now."

You've said yourself that you are lonely living by yourself. You don't need a dependent man to feel loved. There is someone out there for you who will give as much to you as you do to him. If you really feel you MUST help him, find him a permanent address and then kick him the hell out. I refuse to believe that there isn't anywhere who won't hire him--or, at least, as others have suggested, that he couldn't start his own business. (If he can do chores around the house, he can rake a lawn, pull weeds, stuff envelopes, whatever.)

I hope that you are at least considering the advice being given here--good luck with this! Let us know how things turn out!! :-)
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