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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:38 PM
Original message
Anybody else hate Henry VIII?
I'm watching the Henry VIII miniseries on PBS, and I think he's just a jerk.
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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep, definitely a pig.
But I'm enjoying the miniseries.
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It is pretty good.
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ogradda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. wasn't he an asshole?
n/t
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
4. I Think It Was One of Herman's Hermits Better Songs
I'm 'Enery the Eighth, I am
'Enery the Eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widdow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an 'Enery
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam
Im 'er eighth ol' man named 'Enery
'Enery the Eighth, I am.

Second verse - same as the first.

I'm 'Enery the Eighth, I am
'Enery the Eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widdow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an 'Enery
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam
Im 'er eighth ol' man named 'Enery
'Enery the Eighth, I am.
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Wasn't it their only song?
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Minnesota_Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Mrs. Brown, You've Got a Lovely Daughter.
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. OK. They had two songs.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. And....
I'm Into Something Good
Silhouettes
No Milk Today
Dandy

and possible their best....

There's a Kind of Hush (all over the world)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. He was loved by his people even though he beheaded his wives...always
reminded me of Bill Clinton for some reason. If you read about him, he was very interesting. Played instruments and wrote poetry, plus being a great warrior, jouster, athelete....loved relgious debates...was faithful to his first wife for about 15 years...then he went wild when Ann Bolyn caught his eye and the "people" needed that baby heir to the throne. He's very complicated...Clintonesque, as I said. just mho...here, really.

AND...he was the Renaisance Man. But...he didn't like his wives. :D
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. Just a guess but I would say
Anne Boleyn and Kathryn Howard were not too fond of him...
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Hans Delbrook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Sir Thomas Moore is probably in that crowd too.
Though I guess he forgave him - but that's how you get to be a saint.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. You need to understand
Henry in the context of his time. Having a son was of paramount importance. His first marriage was a love match at the time, but Catherine was six years older, and eventually couldn't produce a son who lived. So he needed a new wife, someone young enough to presumably give him the sons he desperately needed. And he fell for Anne Boleyn, who was savvy enough not to become his mistress, but to hold out for marriage. But then she couldn't produce a son either. But along the way, he tore England from the Roman Church, destroyed the monasteries, set the foundation for a truly Protestant England (which didn't happen until Anne Boleyn's daughter Elizabeth became queen), and killed or exiled some of England's best men.

What is left out of things like the PBS miniseries is how unthinkable it was that England have a queen, a woman reigning on her own. The last time it had happened, about four hundred or so years earlier, it was a complete disaster for the country, and memories were long.

There's also a tendency to assume that the six wives were the most important thing in his life, and they probably weren't.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. What I get
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:04 PM by Pithlet
from everything I've read about him is he genuinely fell deeply in love, or thought he did, at the beginning of each marriage. With Catherine of Arragon and Anne Boleyn, he took it as an egregious personal affront when neither bore him sons. Jane Seymour died before she could do anything to piss him off, and she bore him a son besides. Anne of Cleaves turned out to be ugly, but oddly enough he didn't hold that against her and just divorced her. His marriage to Catherine Howard was mainly lust driven, and the Howards took advantage of that to try and further their own ends, to her demise. Catherine Parr outlived him, but by the skin of her teeth. She narrowly escaped the block, herself. In just about every case, there were hundreds of people surrounding each woman who used Henry's self indulgence and capacity to self delude to back stab each other and scramble over each other in a mad dash to the top, which was essentially what court life was about.

Remember, too, that Henry was not raised groomed for the monarchy. He only got there because his older brother died. So, he was raised the way second sons in a monarchies usually were at that time. His every whim was indulged, while at the same time his brother was the focus of almost all the real attention. That, plus I think he probably was a first class asshole to begin with, made him a force to be reckoned with. And it wasn't just his wives that bore the consequences. Thousands of his own subjects died at his whim.

I'm sure there are many who would disagree with my assesment. It's a fun subject to debate, though.

Edied several times for clarity.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. As a devout student of the history of Tudor England
and a multiple lifetime fan of Queen Elizabeth 1, I can assure you he was a total self indulgent hedonistic jerk.

She only could redeem the country's economy through piracy.

Paraphrasing here . . ."Thanks dad for beheading my mom for having six fingers, bankrupting the economy, beheading my favorite stepmom, and empowering my whacko sister (Bloody Mary).

It gave me such enormous faith in mankind."

Joking, sort of.
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Wow, I think I've incited the most scholarly debate on DU
this evening. Thanks everyone for your excellent responses.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Oh no. If you want a raucous debate
about a long dead English king, bring up Richard III. Did he really murder his nephews in the Tower... the debate that will never die. You've got to love medieval English history. Better than any soap opera.
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Wat_Tyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
52. Richard was framed. I suspect Harry Buckingham.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Oh God
Elizabeth I. I have had a years long passion for studying her life. I assume you have the Carroly Erickson biography, yes?
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. oh gawd
I've read about 20. Will have to check into the archives and see.
Well right now I'm playing wash woman so perhaps tomorrow.

It's one of my favorite periods in history because with the whole Mary Queen of Scots conflict, it really exemplifies the little minute virgin/whore dilemma most appropriately. The schism between the sacred and the sexual was the fallout from the patriarchal church's desecration of the divine feminine. It just took 1500 years. No big deal.

If only the fundies had a clue.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. You JUST took my breath away.
If you were sitting here in person, I have the feeling we'd be talking until 3 am.

One of my favorite subjects....
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Okay
we can do it. It's going to be a long four years. PM me if you're serious. Otherwise, has been a pleasure.

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yellowdogintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. count me in on that one too!
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Same here...
My passion is the interaction between the Elizabethan Court and the Russian court, but now that you mention it, Elizabeth may have kept her written flirtation with Ivan going because he was a "bad boy" who reminded her of her father as much as for the political game.

Lots of women with less than stellar fathers alternately seek out and reject men who are like their fathers. It's sort of like playing with fire, seeing how close they can get without getting really burned.

I must say, though, Henry could have been a hell of a lot worse. The Clintonian parallel is a good one, I think. He seemed to be a man who loved women and loved being in love, but didn't like the work it took to make a relationship work. Part of that indulged as a child issue.

Pcat
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. I loved Elizabeth I but I also like her dad in a weird way....she liked
him too, from what I read..but she was torn between them both and triumphed over all that gore in her background. I have always been inspired by her...She lived in a "mans world" but still remained "a lady." ...It wasn't and isn't even today easy to do today. :D
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. Oh he was a TOTAL jerk and a half.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. He's a fascinating character in history
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:25 PM by Pithlet
I don't think any other monarch had quite the effect shaping history in quite the same way he did. He was a bloodthirsty bastard, no doubt, and fun to hate. I love Tudor history and read everything I can get my hands on about it. I also thing the story of Catherine Howard is the most pitiful of all his wives, while most people tend to focus on Anne Boleyn. I don't think poor Catherine really had much say in her destiny. She was pushed into marrying the king when her heart belonged to another at a time when women of her class just did not disobey their parents. It just wasn't done. People who had a bone to pick with her family basically set her up for the fall, and she died tragically and horribly because of it. She wasn't the Jezebel that many paint her as. Not that I think Anne B. had it coming. But, she was more directly involved in her own downfall.

Edit: An affect/the effect.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. He had six wives and started his own religion
He rocks in my book!
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's hardly a PC attitude for a DUer.
Are you a troll? :)
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. What happens in the Sixteenth Century
Stays in the Sixteenth Century.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Henry died thinking he was RC with perhaps unpaid dues to Rome
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:22 PM by papau
Plus a few dollars in his pocket taken from the RC monasteries.
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hyphenate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. Is this a new version?
I remember one from about thirty years ago with Keith Michell as Henry VIII. That one was very good.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. It's Masterpiece Theater on PBS
Starting at 9:00 pm Pacific.

The cast is very impressive; it's a very adult version of the story.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
45. I missed episode one..DAMN
I guess I'll wait until the whole thing is rerun :)
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Yes. Totally new. Excellent cast.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. I remember that one also. Incredible series.
I think it might have been 33-35 years ago. I learned alot from that series as I was a very innocent prepubscent girl.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. appears to be new...
you can find the DVD for sale on PBS ...

www.pbs.org
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
25. How can you hate Herman's Hermits?
They made the 1910 Fruitgum Company look authentic...

Oi'm enrery the eighth oi am, enery the eighth oi am
Oi gut murried to th widow nex door
She been murried seven toimes before
An every one was an enery
Oim enery the eighth oi am
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Silly boy.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 10:32 PM by FuzzySlippers
We're not talking about the song. :silly:
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
27. as to the "started his own religion"
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:31 PM by stellanoir
theory. Well yeah he did. But it was only because Rome wouldn't grant him an annulment to Catherine of Aragon of Spain who was his elder brother's widow, when he wanted desperately to marry Anne Boleyn, who he beheaded after she did not produce a male heir, and based her trial on trumped up witchery and adultery charges.

I lived in England when the IRA was bombing all sorts of places.
Every time I saw sand bags behind walls or bombs explode, I'd just think, "My God they're still fighting over Henry the XIII's annulment. How absurd is that. . .?"

That's really all it came down to.
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PartyPooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Princess Diana was a direct descendant and I believe, Junior was related.
Junior was descended through Edward III..."on the wrong side of the blanket."

Guess who turned out better!

:eyes:
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. I thought Diana was a descendent of Charles II
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 09:56 PM by bleedingheart
Ole Charlie is probably greatgreat....grandfather to half of England, it is just a shame he couldn't father a child on Catherine of Braganza.

http://www.infosearchpoint.com/display/Princess_Diana

"Diana was the youngest daughter of the Rt. Hon. Frances Ruth Burke-Roche (daughter of the fourth Baron Fermoy) and the Rt. Hon. Edward John Spencer, Viscount Althorp, making Diana a descendant of many of the kings of England, including Charles I, Charles II, and James II. She was also a great-granddaughter of Frances Ellen Work (the Hon. Mrs James Boothby Burke-Roche, later Mrs Aurel Batonyi), an American heiress whose father, Frank Work, was a prominent stockbroker. (Another descendant of Frances Work is American actor Oliver Platt.) "

Technically more directly related to the Stuarts...indirectly that means related to the Tudors through Henry's older sister Margaret who was married to the King of Scotland and grandmother to Mary Queen of Scots..mother of James I of England.
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ogradda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. she is
and thus descended from mary queen of scots, margaret tudor (henry the viii sister) and henry the vii. henry the viii has no known descendents.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. I think a better miniseries would be about Henry VII
he came from basically no where to inherit the throne and he married Elizabeth of York and put an end to the War of the Roses.

Hell his mother was a widow at 14 if I recall...a 14 year old widow and mother to an infant son who had a price on his head from birth.
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Gemini Cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Totally agree with that.
Henry VII was more interesting than his self indulgent son.

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miss_kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. When ever I watch or read about that period of time
I always hope SOMEBODY will do SOMETHING different and there'll be a different ending Edward VI lives longer. Mary Tudor does not become queen. Mary Queen of Scots isn't surrounded by asshats, or her French husband becomes King and she is Queen of France. And if she is widowed, the guy she marries in Scotland isn't a complete waste of time and space. England leaves Ireland. Elizabeth gets jiggy with whoever and has a kid or two...Cromwell's mom has an abortion...
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. You're right
I haven't seen an awful lot of alternate histories written about that time period. World War II and the Civil War have been done to death in that genre. You should write that :)

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miss_kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. i can't even fathom it. Everything would be different
could you imagine Ireland w/o 500 years of English rule? How differently the US would have been set up? What if Catherine of Aragon had given birth to a few sons that lived. No schism, no Elizabeth I...a totally different world.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. I just read a sort of alternate history by Kim Stanley Robinson
"The Years of Rice and Salt." It is set in a world from the time of the Black Death to the present, if it had killed 95 percent of the population of Europe. Buddhism and Islam become the dominating religions the world over, and Christianity is no more than a footnote in history. I think Robinson manages to pull it off without being preachy or critical of any one belief system. You may want to check it out if you like alt history, and dont mind a big read (it's over 700 pages).

Speculating about alternate history, and reading other people's ideas of what might have been is fun.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. What did you expect from a Divine Right King?
Like we have now?
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Excellent point.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
49. Now that you mention it
I do hate him. And now, thanks to the person who mentioned Herman's Hermits, I'll have that song on the brain. Again.
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. What an erudite thread
Maybe we need a history forum?
Henry VIII-seems like an overbearing jerk today, and in fact was considered pretty odd in his own time. (divorcing his 1st wife, marrying a woman of his court rather than a princess from another country--AND he married Anne Boleyn before Catherine died, so was a bigamist briefly; creating the ENglish Church, and being known as a monarch who actually had more wives than mistresses).
He also had a nasty habit of "rewarding" those who did a great deal for him (Wolsey, Cromwell) with banishment and/or death. Perpetual adolescent temperament.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
53. The episode last night
seems to start with the beheading of Ann Boleyn. Did I miss the first episode? How many episodes are there?
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Yes, the episode last night was the second of two parts.
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NightTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
54. On top of everything else, he inspired that lousy Herman's Hermits song.
DAMN YOU, HENRY VIII!!! :grr: :nuke:
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Wat_Tyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
55. Pretty much every English monarch was a jerk.
Pretty much every monarch is a jerk. It goes with the territory.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
56. At least he had higher ambitions than to be a tampon
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FuzzySlippers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. LOL!
What's wrong with wanting to be Camilla Parker-Bowles tampon?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. No human being should aim so low
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. I watched that special twice
and came away each time more disgusted with him.

The way he treated poor Catherine of Aragon.

The pig!!!
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