I cannot believe ANYONE wants Paul Hamm to give back his gold medal!!!!!!!

[joeybee12]

Come on, did any of you actually watch the events, or are you just reading what those slimy journalists--who love a controversy--are saying??

Fact--South Korea did not protest the score until the next day. They lied and said they did.

Fact--South Korea originally went all weepy, complaining that Paul's score was too high and their guy who got the silver should have gotten the gold. Then they went searching for stuff to dig up, and found the scoring error on their third place guy, Yang.

Fact--you can't review videotapes to alter scores. This is what the South Koreans were trying to do. And since they did, then you have to notice that Yang's high bar score was .2 too high, since he was not deducted for an obvious error. Ok, give the guy the .10 on the scoring error, then take away the .2. Now we're all happy, and Yang gets moved down to 4th place.

Fact--if Paul Hamm were any nationality other than American, nobody would have made a stink. It's virulent anti-Americanism at play. We have Dumbo to thank for that, but I hate it because it affects some young kid who has practiced all his life and was so clearly the best all-around that night!

[Trajan]

1. I watched Paul Hamm ....

He was mediocre ... at best ...

[LynneSin]

5. damnit, he was very good

:grr:

[joeybee12]

6. Me thinks you had ABC on or some other station..........

[Trajan]

30. Cmon ....

The guy fell on his arse ....

Chuckles ....

Hey ... Im all for 'american' athletes and all that ... but let's call a spade a spade ... There were better performances than Hamm's, and the Korean kid should have won ....

RARELY does an Gymnist fall off of an apparatus and go on to win the all around ...

I watched his ENTIRE performance ... it was good ... not great ...

[ronnykmarshall]

2. Thank you Joeybee!

[Scairp]

3. This should have died already

Paul did nothing wrong, as long as you have human beings judging athletic competitions these things are going to happen, and if they want to do something then they should award the Korean a second gold. It's been done before (remember the figure skating scandal?). Paul Hamm represented this country with dignity and pride and no way should anyone expect him to give back that medal. He earned it, IMO.

[chiburb]

4. "but I hate it because it affects some young kid ...

who has practiced all his life."

The Korean or Hamm?

[Dookus]

7. It's not anti-Americanism

it's a respect for sportsmanship. I don't think he should be forced to give up his medal, but I think the sportmanlike thing to do would have been to accept that the "difficulty" error means he didn't earn the gold, and offer to set things right.

Did you watch Nemov last night? THAT'S sportsmanship.

[joeybee12]

8. Yeah, and Nemov asked the crowd to quiet down AFTER Hamm requested

he do just that, because Hamm couldn't start his routine.

[chiburb]

12. And "sportsmanship" should mandate the awarding

Of a second Gold Medal to the Korean. Don't strip Hamm, he did nothing wrong. But neither did the Korean...

[underpants]

9. I can't either it has been proven that the Korean got a BREAK in scoring

he had 4 holds you are only allowed 3-automatic 2/10 deduction.

Aside from that he won ESAD and see you in four years. Anyone who is competitive enough to get to that point isn't going to be very willing to just hand it over to someone.

Another Gold? Sure okay (aside from the FACT in the subject line) but don't take Hamm's away.

[Lavender Brown]

10. I agree.

:yourock:

I swear, if you read some of the threads about him without knowing who he was, you'd think we were talking about Lynndie England.

[KurtNYC]

11. Canada v. Russia ice skating pairs

Fact--if Paul Hamm were any nationality other than American, nobody would have made a stink

Fact -- hypothetical statements are not facts.

[joeybee12]

13. If you watched or heard about all the anti-Americanism over there...

...you'd accept my statement as fact, which it is.

Are you saying there should be a second gold? The ice skating gold was given to quiet down the widespread corruption in ice skating judging. Nothing in this incident indicates any corruption. Gymnastics scoring is subjective,a nd often flawed, and that's the way it's always going to be.

[KurtNYC]

22. Facts don't usually start with "if"

I was with you until that statement. I worked the games in Los Anegles in 1984 and I was there when they turned out the lights in the Gynastics venue right as Ecaterina Szabó was preparing to go on for her floor exercise. So YES the Olympics are open to problems. But my point is they are not limited to American athletes.

[lil-petunia]

14. the guy fell

If the scores show he ain't first, he ain't deserving. This co-medal bull is just that. Bull.

Besides, I am more interested in the Iraqi Soccer team's reaction to the shrub.

[guntherconcept]

15. Hamm Scam

- He fell onto the judges table after a vault, and still won the gold medal?

- Precedent has been set; a couple of years ago a female competitor in the world trampoline championship (okay, laugh if you must) was awarded the gold medal necause of an error, and offered to give up the medal to the competitor who actually had deserved it.

- Does anyone think that if it had been Hamm or any other Americn getting the short end of the stick that they'd be saying they'd settle for fourth because "rules are rules"?

- The Olympics are supposed to be about competition and sportsmanship, not about hiding behind technicalities to screw someone out of a medal they'd earned.

[nyhuskyfan]

32. There are six events

He flubbed one of the six, and performed well enough on the other five to win the gold. That's like saying, "The Iraq soccer team kicked the ball in their own net and they still won? How can that be?" Well, they won 4-2. Hamm was in first place when he fell, and earned above a 9.8 on his final two routines, so on 5 of 6 events he scored well enough to be a gold medalist. It is an absurd argument to say that he didn't deserve the gold because he fell once.

There are no technicalities here. Hamm won the gold based on the scoring done that day, during competition. If you go back and look at the videotape, you can add .1 to the start value for the Korean, but you can also deduct .2 for having one two many holds and Hamm still wins. So how can you say the Korean earned it? He didn't. Live he didn't earn it, and if you go look at videotape technicalities, he didn't win it either.

And if the shoes were reversed, I would say the same thing. Nobody is reporting it, but there is a U.S. women's gymnast named Mohini Bhardwaj who said that the judges miscalculated on her start value on the floor routine, costing her a bronze. They had video, but their appeal was turned down. When asked about it she shrugged and said, "That's the way the sport is." If you added her scoring correction, then the final gymnasts to go wouldn't know where they stood going into their routines.

There's a reason that the gymnasts who scored highest in prelims go last -- it's so that they have an advantage of knowing what the people scored who went before them and what they need to do to win. That's a reward for performing the best in the opening rounds.

[LynneSin]

16. Thank you JoeyBee

It's almost like we're all trying to shame Paul Hamm to do what WE think is the right thing. Heck I've seen threads were we're practically calling him a repuke scumbag because we think that if he was progressive he would have given back the medal already.

KNOCK IT THE CHENEY OFF!!!

:mad:

Eliminate the whole scoring issue with the base value/hold issue.

Basic fact is that the Koreans had a day to file any complaint and they didn't. That's Paul Hamm's gold and he should hold on to it forever and ever and he doesn't have to do another damn thing about it except maybe be gracious about winning it and express concerns that the gymanastic officals need to better the scoring system.

End of discussion.

This isn't a USA thing - the score has sucked plenty of times for other situations including that Greek/Bulgaria situation and Alexsi Nemov.

Congratulations Paul! You earned that Gold Medal and this liberal America is proud of your sucess at the Olympics!

[joeybee12]

18. You're welcome...they should have filed immediately, like the US did in

swimming, and Piersol was immediately un-disqualifed. If the South Koreans knew there was a problem, they should have filed immediately. They went searching for something to bitch about.

[LynneSin]

20. Very good example, I forgot about him

That error was corrected like in 20 minutes because the US filed immediately!

[joeybee12]

24. Also, recall Brett McClure's low score in the all-around on the floor?

The US coaches approached the judges immediately, and were told that he started out with a 9.5, and the coaches assumed his routine should have been started out higher.

What happened to Yang was common, and if you want to go over the entire all-around, you'lll find plenty more scoring errors.

[slappypan]

17. It should not be up to athletes

to make up for lousy officiating. Athletes can not be expected to second guess the judges, where would it end? Make the judges and governing bodies clean up their own mess.

[stopbush]

51. You're correct, but often times the athletes know better than

anyone else.

I grew up playing tennis when John McEnroe was at the top of his game. Though I didn't always care for his screaming antics on the court, I knew where he was coming from. I played plenty of matches where the line judges were older, be-speckled people who just happened to be associated with a tennis center. Their eyes were not all that good and their reaction times were s-l-o-w. We, as 18-yr-old players, had faster reaction times and better eyes, no doubt about it. But our rules didn't allow us to question calls, it was up to our HS coach. If a call was questioned, the solution was always to replay the point on a first serve. And, we never wanted to win on a technicality or bad call. What's the point? In your heart, you know you didn't really win.

But watching Mac, I could well understand his frustration. Imagine having the skill to hit a shot that paints the line at 90 mph only to have it called out by the guy who runs the snack shop on off days (OK, maybe not the snack shop, but still...).

[redqueen]

19. Well stated

I don't know about your last fact, although I do agree... but yes... there were other errors so they shouldn't go back and correct for one without correcting for the others - which means Hamm's still the winner.

[Hoping4Change]

21. "What happened to good sportsmanship."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1576981

[joeybee12]

23. You're right, what happened to the South Koreans' good sportsmanship?

[Lavender Brown]

27. It isn't really about sportsmanship, that's the thing

It's a judging controversy, and it's turned into a debate on this one guy's character.

[avb7]

25. Hamm earned a silver medal......

he received a gold medal because of a scoring error. No error and Hamm gets the silver. It is that simple. He can say anything he likes but he was second best on that night and he will live with that in whatever way he wants, but don't try and justify his gold because of rules that don't foresee an honest and easily correctable error.

[joeybee12]

34. WRONG! An easily correctable error could have been corrected

IMMEDIATELY! But the South Koreans didn't file a protest IMMEDIATLEY. If this had been done in the correct time frame then it would have been resolved even before Hamm went on the high bar for his final routine.

Instead, the South Koreans FIRST complained that Hamm had too high a score, then a day later AFTER digging, they finally found something.

Bunch of fucking poor sports!

[Dookus]

36. yes

and a technical deadline for recounting votes was missed, therefore it's fine and dandy that Bush was installed as president.

[Pithlet]

41. Good point!

Who cares about who was actually voted president. The president and his backers sure didn't

Gosh, I wonder how many people who are outraged that we want to see a wrong righted were the same people who were outraged at how the election turned out. Some of the same types of arguments against restoring the gold to Korea were used by the Republicans in stopping the recounts and installing Bush as president.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

47. Stop trying to drag the 2000 election into this.

It's cheap. Besides, if you want to play that game, you are the one making arguments that sound closer to the republicans - i.e. the rules should be ignored in the interest of "fairness". Military votes arriving after the legal deadline and not validated or postmarked should be counted in the interest of "fairness." Fairness to me means playing by the rules unless there is something inherently wrong with the rules. South Korea had a chance to protest, and they missed it. It's no different from a football coach missing a chance to protest an official's call and have a play reviewed. That's part of the game too, and the reason for it is so that you can't start complaining about the outcome long after everyone thinks it's settled. The South Korean's missed a deadline plain and simple. That was their error. There is no reason for Hamm to give his medal back.

EDIT: Oops! 2000 election, not 200! :)

[Dookus]

48. Why should I stop?

I'm making a point that a technical adherence to the rules that results in an outcome that is unfair is wrong.

Why not address that issue? The Hammites are all saying "the rules! the rules!" and nobody addresses the issue of fairness. This is NOT about a subjective scoring decision - it's about a mathematical error.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

50. And South Korea had their opportunity to object.

They missed it. Should a football coach be allowed to protest an official's call days after the game has ended? Or is it reasonable to have a time limit so that that sort of thing doesn't happen?

[Pithlet]

53. You don't know that they missed it

And it doesn't change the fact that the wrong outcome was issued. If it is indeed true that the SKs did not challenge appropriately, it doesn't autmatically mean that the correct start value was used. It doesn't magically make the outcome fair.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

54. Yes, it does.

If the South Korean coaches failed to lodge a timely protest, they lose the right to have the score changed. That is part of the game. South Korea may claim they protested immediately, but I heard the judges are denying that. So it's basically just SK's word, right? Have they offered any proof that this happened? I would assume that there is some paperwork or something involved in lodging a protest.

[Pithlet]

56. *If *they didn't protest in time

and the rules clearly state that they have to, then they're SOL. It doesn't change the fact the mistake was made, though. The medal still went to the wrong person, and it will stay there on a technicality. Yay!!!! Hooray for technicalities! The stuff of champions.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

58. What you call "technicalities," I call playing by the rules.

If you think "technicalities" shouldn't have any role in sports, you are incredibly naive. Sports is all about technicalities. It's a legitimate part of the game, not something to be scorned.

[Pithlet]

59. Technicalities are there

to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules. I never said they had no role in sport. But this wasn't an issue of not playing by the rules. Both Hamm and Young performed within the boundaries of the rules. This was an issue of the judges screwing up. I don't think following by the rules means upholding results made in error.

I'd rather win my medal because I was the best, not because someone who outperformed me didn't get their due because of a mathematical error no fault of their own, and their coaches didn't bring it up in time. Either I was the best, or I wasn't. It doesn't magically change because something unfortunate happened to the opponent.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

61. Well, no one enjoys winning under those circumstances

That's a far cry from saying that Hamm should give up his gold. The judges may have screwed up, but such things happen in any sport. South Korea also screwed up by not protesting within their window of opportunity. Hamm is the only one who didn't screw up. And anyone who says that Hamm did not win fair and square is essentially saying that the rules don't matter. I feel badly for Hamm. He didn't do anything wrong, and there is no reason for him to give up his medal.

You say "I don't think following by the rules means upholding results made in error." On the contrary, that is exactly what upholding the rules sometimes must mean. If you are an athlete, you agree to play by the rules of the sport. South Korean is displaying very poor sportsmanship.

[Pithlet]

62. Hamm didn't do anything wrong

But he doesn't deserve the medal he got. It's sad for him, but that's the way it is. I felt very bad for him until he opened his mouth.

All screw ups in sports aren't equal. I'm not disagreeing with you that sometimes these things happen in sports, and that sometimes the results must stand. Where I am disagreeing with you is this is one of those times. Sometimes the interest of sportsmanship IS served by correcting a mistake and making sure the deserved party gets the reward.

Has it even occurred to you that one of the reasons the South Koreans are being so adamant about it is because they weren't given the chance, or were ignored? You're just assuming that they didn't play by the rules, and holding that as fact.

[cmkramer]

65. How do you know?

You're assuming that if Yang had gotten the correct start value that everything would have proceeded exactly as it did and that he would have won. Maybe he would have, but who's to say that Hamm might not have done even better on his last two routines or even another gymnast? It's that "chaos theory" from JURASSIC PARK -- once you change one thing, everything changes.

[Pithlet]

66. So,

Does that mean you don't correct it? It is a fact that if the correct start value had been used, Young's score would have been higher. It is a fact that a mistake WAS made.

Occam's razor. The simplest solution that explains all the available facts is usually correct. The starting value has nothing to do with the deductions the South Korean would have gotten. He did that routine expecting a start value of 10.0. Changing the start value would almost have had no affect on Hamm, as he knew regardless of what anyone else did, he would have to be as close to perfect as possible to win a medal. Yes, all the things you said might have happened. Aliens from Mars might have stolen Athens, too. But, the odds of either of those two things coming to pass are extraordinarily low. You're making a rationalization, not an argument.

[Pithlet]

26. Your facts are wrong.

It is a fact that reviewing tape has nothing to do with what happened. The wrong starting score was used. That's all paper and pencil. This isn't about how the routine was judged.

It is not a fact that if Hamm were any other nationality, that no one would raise a stink. These kinds of things happen in the Olympics all the time, and Americans aren't always involved.

It is not a fact that South Korea lied. That is speculation.

South Korea got all weepy about their man not getting a gold medal he should have? Imagine that.

[chiburb]

29. Oh stop making sense!

Isn't your logic needed in an abortion thread or something?

;)

[Pithlet]

31. Oops

Back to GD with me. :)

[joeybee12]

35. Try learning how to read first, before you make stupid comments.

Yang's routine was reviewed on VIDEOTAPE to show that it was the same routine he used in the preliminaries! That was the only way to prove it was--they had to show the videotape to the IGF during their appeal, which is not allowed, but magically was for the South Koreans.

It is a fact that when South Korea first complained, it was that Paul Hamm got too high a score, and their guy who got the silver should have won. AND they didn't say that Hamm got too high a score, they said the judges gave a gift to "the American." They fucking well know his name, but they had to hammer home the point that they didn't believe an American should have won.

YES, South korea lied. They said they protested immediately. No they didn't. They lied.

Please try to contradict facts with facts.

[Pithlet]

38. Yes

The video was only used to show that he indeed did the routine. That is not a videotape review of how the judges scored it. It isn't an issue of judging, it is an issue of math. Using the videotape to reconfirm that he indeed did the routine that he did NOT get the correct start value doesn't weaken the case against changing it. In fact, it's the opposite.

It is speculation that they did not protest immediately. You can scream "liar liar, pants on fire" all you want. It doesn't make it fact.

SK may have complained about Paul Hamm's score first. It still doesn't change the fact that the wrong start score was used. If they wet their pants and emulated themselves, it still doesn't change the fact that the wrong start score was used. If they tarred and feathered Paul Hamm and made him sing "I'm a little teapot", it doesn't change the FACT that the wrong start score was used.

You sound immature. I'm a big dumb poopyhead because I don't agree with you. LOL!

[chiburb]

42. Are you Iverglas?

:D

[Pithlet]

45. No, but thanks for the compliment

:)

[chimpy the poopthrower]

44. Why don't the SK coaches know the rules?

If they, as they claim, protested immediately and were told to lodge a complaint later, why didn't they say, "no, because that would put us beyond the time limit"?

[Pithlet]

46. Who knows?

Who knows that they didn't say that, but were met with deaf ears? Does it change the fact that the wrong starting value was used?

[chimpy the poopthrower]

49. If that were true...

...wouldn't they have gone to the media right away? You're not even being realistic at this point. Do you know anything about football? Do you think a coach should be able to challenge an official's call days after the game has ended or do you think it is reasonable and sensible to have time limits on such things?

[Pithlet]

52. Maybe they did

and the media didn't pick up on it? Regardless, I don't think lack of media attention always = it didn't happen. That's a lesson I've learned about the media.

I do not think a coach should be able to challenge an official's call days after the game. And, I do know a little bit about football. But, this isn't football, and this wasn't days after the event.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

57. Not even the South Korean media?

Come on. South Korea cannot provide any evidence that they challenged their athlete's score within the time frame. Have they even made that claim? Do you really believe it's possible that they tried to challenge their gymnast's score at the time and were not allowed to do so by the judges? I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have made an incredible stink at that point. Everybody would have known about that. But you've already said that you don't think it matters whether SK protested within the proper time frame or not. Your viewpoint would render all of the rules and regulations meaningless.

Olympic Gymnastics may have different procedures for challenging scores than NFL coaches have for challenging calls, but they both have a window of opportunity for doing so, and if you miss that window of opportunity, that's that. You can't come back later and start whining that you got cheated. You can't demand that the winning team give up their win to you. It is South Korea that is being the poor sports here.

[Pithlet]

60. I don't know any more than you do

I do believe it was possible. Do you have a daily feed on South Korean media? Is South Korean media as reliable as ours? *snarf*

Your definition of poor sport is different than mine, obviously. But, I'm not the one using examples that are nothing like what happened to South Korea, either. Because I'm asserting that the wrong man got the medal does not mean I think that anyone should be able to challenge any ruling at any time. I think you're trying to blurr the distinction.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

64. I'm making an analogy.

Suppose you have two teams playing in the Superbowl. Late in the game an official makes a call against Team A. The coach of Team A does not challenge the call. Team B ends up winning the Superbowl. Later, the coach of Team A reviews the video of the game and decides that the call was actually wrong and goes to the media saying that the officials played favorites and that Team A really deserved to win. You could argue that the Team A players were actually the better players that day, but does that mean that Team B should give up their Superbowl win to Team A? Of course not. You play by the rules. You can say it's too bad for the Team A players that their coach made an error that arguably cost them the game. But they are all on the same team, after all. Challenging questionable calls is part of the coach's job.

I won't keep arguing with you over whether it is believable that the South Korean coach pointed out the starting score error right away and was ignored by judges. But according to you, that shouldn't matter anyway. You seem to feel that all that matters is who gave a better performance that day, but that's not how it works. In my analogy, Team A arguably gave the better performance, but does that mean Team B should be expected to give up their win?

[rocktivity]

28. If the judges could add, there would have been nothing to protest

It's no one's fault but the judges that the numbers didn't get added up correctly. But if he didn't finish first, he shouldn't have the first-place medal.

Unfortunately, you're right--if Hamm did give it back, America would crown him as the biggest Olympic disgrace this side of Tonya Harding even if it would have been the right thing.

:headbang:
rocknation

[joeybee12]

37. That's why the team coaches need to be vigilant--the South Koreans weren't

The US coaches immediately questioned the low score on Brett McClure's floor exercise. The South Koreans didn't notice the mistake until a day later.

[mitchtv]

33. however, last night,Alexi Nemov was robbed on the high poles

Hamm deserved the Bronze, and that silver belonged Nemov.

[chimpy the poopthrower]

39. I replied on the other thread but I'll say it again.

You are exactly right, joeybee. South Korea had a chance to protest and they missed the opportunity.

Think about this in terms of (American) football. If the officials make a poor call, and the coach of the team hurt by that call fails to challenge it, can the team come back later and complain that they were robbed? Should the other team give up their victor status to the other team? Of course not. Scoring errors and poor calls happen all the time in various sports. And sports have rules and procedures for dealing with that. Hamm won fair and square because the South Korean player and his coach made an error -- the error of neglecting to challenge their score in a timely manner. No way should Hamm be punished for the judges errors or the South Korea team's errors.

[joeybee12]

40. And there were other errors that night--Yang needs to blame his coaches

for not follwing the rules.

[stopbush]

43. At first, I thought it was open and shut: Paul won the Gold.

But then, Bob Dole opined that "as far as I know, Paul never bled earning that medal."

Now, I'm not so sure...

[amazona]

55. I agree with you

I'm not sure about your last "fact" -- I think maybe there are crybabies in sport and the Koreans may have complained no matter what Hamm's nationality.

But I do think the call for Hamm to give up his medal is just wrong. You can't go around adjusting scores after the fact, it would lead to endless contention and dissension.

There is a reason most competitions stipulate that the decision of the judges shall be final.

[Skittles]

63. believe it

nt

[joeybee12]

67. I return 7 hours later,a nd this si still going!!!!!!!!!!!! Whoo-hoo!

Admit it, in your hearts you know the South Korean coaches didn't protest Yang's score at first because they thought one of their guys was going to win anyway, and Yang would get the silver. Even Yang has admitted they didn't protest and should have. He said he only has himself to blame--of course, then the South Korean coaches go and file a belated protest anyway.

[Pithlet]

68. I know

It's frustrating for me too when I know that deep down, all people really do agree with me, but just don't admit it. But until then, post I must. I figure they'll eventually come around ;)

[joeybee12]

69. Maybe I shoud start a new one...when they get this long is gets confusing!

[Pithlet]

70. Heh.

I was participating in another thread on the same subject, and then trying to keep track of my arguments in both of them. :crazy:

[joeybee12]

71. I'll start one tomorrow, and ask people why the SK coaches DIDN'T file

a protest immediately after the score was posted. Many people still seem to think they did--they didn't, and even Yang said they didn't. It bothers me that the're lying about this, which gives credence to my theory that they figured one of their guys was going to take gold anyway, so why bother? They just didn't want Hamm to get the gold.