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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:02 AM
Original message
how quickly can you solve this? . . .
Petals Around the Rose
http://personal.baker.edu/web2/cdavis09/roses.html

Dr. Duke used to begin each of his gaming/simulation courses with this exercise. While some students would solve the problem right away, others would struggle all semester. It had taken Dr. Duke well over a year himself, and he would always explain that the smarter you were, the longer it took to figure it out.

hmm . . . took me about a minute . . . which I guess confirms that I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer . . . :)



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Doctor Smith Donating Member (255 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Took me 3 tries
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Kathleen04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. I got the right answer a couple times
but I don't understand why. :silly:
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Kathleen04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I figured it out now!
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 01:15 AM by Kathleen04
After some stumbling.

On edit: If it said how many petals around the ROSES, plural, I think I would've figured it out faster..
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Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. I must be a freakin' knucklehead
I figured it out on the first roll. That was pure luck that the first thing I thought of worked though....the only reason I tried what I did was because of the way the riddle is phrased.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. Knucklehead #2 here
I got it on the first try.

It's not really fair to call this a math problem, that'll throw alot of people off track.
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Dark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
4. Ha! A little over a minute for me too!
:dunce:
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
5. I thought I had it, but then I didnt.
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
6. Got it solved 2nd try. Took me about 20 seconds.
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corriger Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. well, describe this
four points for a square, how would you test it and how long would it take you?

answer, well you have four points so if you divide the space in 8 cubes, you can get a test for a square in eache plane, and a test for each square in each space, which makes a total of 16 tests, which should be finished in 3 days.

16 points but Lol
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LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. i dont freakin get it!
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 01:15 AM by LastKnight
i dont see any mathmatical pattern here... or whatever... AAAAAGH
EDIT: im starting to get frustrated...

-LK
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corriger Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. sorry, algorithm question
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 01:25 AM by corriger
for a tester slot

and valid test but for remaining bullshits.

Cheers,
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amerikat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. it's not Math problem its a ______________problem
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
48. LOL I managed to solve it mathematically
I didn't get, and still don't exactly get the "rose" thing...only saw someone in the thread mention it briefly but they didn't really explain it.

In any case, I have another solution.

It took me a couple minutes, but to begin with I noticed that all the answers were even. Then it occurred to me that the number of petals went way down when there weren't many odd-numbered dice coming up. So I tried to find some kind of correlation between the numbers on the odd numbered die that come up and the answer, and here it is:

Substract one from the value of each odd numbered die that comes up, then add the results together. The sum of them will be the correct number of petals (I tried it about ten times, and it worked all ten- I figure it's right).

Could someone explain the thing that I'm missing, though? I guess the dice are supposed to be the roses? What counts as petals?
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. that's one way to do it!
it took me about 20 minutes... I kept looking for mathematical solutions. It was useful to note that zero is a possible answer, and that the answer is always even.
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Mokito Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. no, not all dices are roses
Only those that have petals and ... That's how I solved it...by imagining the structure of a rose (think bees!)
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kevinam Donating Member (475 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. I am with you...
I guess I am not creative or whatever. I spun it probably 2 dozen times...got a few right, but don't know why. When I thought I had it figured out, I was wrong. I am done, the damn cubes win...Kevin.
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Qanisqineq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
49. me neither, does that make me a genius?
I have no freaking clue what is going on
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AwakeAtLast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. I was going to consider myself a genius
Then I figured it out after about ten minutes.

Good link!
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. ok...wait a minute...
I got it in about 20 seconds....what did I do right?
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
13. death to abstract math!!!!!!!!!
I do not posess the mental model for this.
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LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. im giving up too. nt
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. heheh
no abstract math required. Just counting. The trick is figuring out what to count.

I got it on the 3rd try.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I've got 10 tries in and that's enough for me
missed every single one... what rose... which petals.. why are there dice?

Abstract math must be wiped out....
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. shall I PM you with the answer?
you'll smack yourself in the head when you see it.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. it will only add to the welts I received ramming me head onto the desk
trying to figure out the math problem...

sure PM me with the answer. At least then I will be able to sleep.
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. Misdirection
The game's instructions are misleading. The name Petals Around the Rose suggests a single rose, but that throws you off the track. Suggesting that a knowledge of mathematics is required is also misleading. You just have to be able to count.

This isn't a worthy game, it's a trick. If you follow the instructions you won't get the answer.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. I think it's perfect...

The trick is part of the game, which is why this is used as an introduction for game theory.

I disagree with the notion that how long it takes to solve the puzzle is a measure of intelligence. "Time to solve" measures something else entirely, but I'm having trouble putting that into words.
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Piltdown13 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. I was thinking about that, too
It seems like it would be very hard to get a handle on what "time to solve" might indicate, because of the random nature of the game (OK, I know there are issues with random event generators, but it's close enough). Each roll you see is random (and, if you play online, different from the rolls others are seeing), so it's entirely possible that one person might by chance get a series of rolls -- or even just one roll -- that gave away the game to them really early, but a different series of rolls might have prevented them from getting the answer for much longer. (Or maybe I'm just thinking that because I have a strong suspicion that I might still be rolling if I hadn't gotten a zero-petals roll on trial number 10.) I guess you'd have to play in a group to get a trustworthy measure of the variation in time to solve.

But it is a fun thinking exercise...makes me want to use it as an icebreaker in my classes. It would definitely get the students used to working together!
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Agreed...

I forwarded this to my ex-wife, the math professor, to get her take on it. I have a suspicion it will take her longer to solve it than it did me. I base that on the fact it always takes her a long time to solve puzzles based on things like this. But there is no doubt she is an extremely intelligent person.

It took me a dozen or so rolls. (I wasn't counting actually.) Math is not in any way my strong point, and I suspect this may have helped. I abandoned potential mathematical solutions quickly because they were making my head hurt. I just looked at the words, then the patters, then the words again, and it finally hit me. It's a symbolic problem disguised as a numbers problem that plays on how we deal with language.

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Piltdown13 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. Exactly
I wonder if people would get it more quickly if it were a different flower...I know I would have!
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nono Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. Same here
Think I should run for office?
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. Oh, I get it
Shall I hint?
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. No...lol
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yella_dawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
18. Third roll
I guess I would lose a game of wits with a bag of corn chips.



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Piltdown13 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
26. I've seen this before...
..so although it took me five minutes, I'm not sure if that's an accurate time or if concentrating on it for a few minutes dredged up the memory from my subconscious. What finally gave me the solution this time -- triggered the memory or whatever -- was that I got a very helpful zero-petals roll fairly quickly (after ten or so trials). That plus the non-utility of all the other solutions I thought of from one roll to the next did it. If you haven't gotten it yet, play again till you get a zero-petals roll :-).
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
27. A neighbor did this at a party
I did not figure it out until a few days later. I tried all kinds of very complex algorithms, created tables and experimented with formulas. Foolish - the first thing you should motice in a group is that the people who don't do this, figure it out first.
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
28. I got it after 2 tries.
I'm actually kind of disappointed :) My husband is an engineer and excellent at math; I'll have to show this to him and see how long it takes him.
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Nomad559 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
29. On the first try for me
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 02:14 AM by Nomad559
I just kept clicking on the roll button, and I soon saw the pattern to figure It out.

Is that cheating?
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. Hint
I cheated. I googled the name of the game until I found the answer. Here's a hint. When you correctly define what a rose is, you'll see the petals.

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Angelus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
31. I don't get it.
Too tired to. :(
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Don't Look for a Pattern
The order of the dice is irrelevant. There's no pattern there. The pattern is on each individual die.
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Angelus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. God damn it...
I got it. I'm stupid. Took awhile, but I got it.

ROFL.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
35. Ok...I will spoil the fun
Look at the way each die is laid out...and think of the opposite side.
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. That's No Help
The opposite side has nothing to do with the answer. A five has four petals and a three has two petals. All the other faces have no petals.
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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. awwwwwwwwwww
You're no fun..lol, I was just throwin them
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yorgatron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. that's the STUPIDEST god damned thing
i've ever seen.
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Piltdown13 Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Which is why I think the name makes it more difficult
Seems like it would be easier if it were "Petals around the Daisy." My initial thought was that the dots around the edges were the petals, but when that didn't immediately work, I over-thought it and decided that all the dice together, through some algorithm, determined the number of petals on a single, hypothetical rose (the name does say "rose" not "roses" after all). Now, if a flower like a daisy were in the title, it would be an easier visual jump -- petals around the center of a daisy to, say, four dots around the center dot.

Or maybe it's just me. ;-)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
41. 5 seconds.
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Nomad559 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
44. The Solution
The outer dots that circle the center dot are the petals, you count the outer dots only. If their Is NO center dot, you count none of them.
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JPJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
46. A mathematical background is a disadvantage
or else I'm stoopid.
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Not a Disadvantage
A mathematical background is not a disadvantage, but presenting this as a mathematical problem is a misdirection. It's not a math problem, it's a perception problem. The only "math" involved is simple counting.

If the problem is fairly stated, that is, without misleading information like an implied single rose, I don't think a math background will lead you astray.

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Slippery_Hammer Donating Member (817 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
47. Right first time
and every time. After about 1 min. contemplation and reading the Background blurb.

Lucky guess?
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
51. ok- I still don't get it
I feel like a retard!
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
52. Got it on the first try. I must be a moran.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
53. I don't get it
:grr: :grr:

I always hate these little "gotcha" puzzles. :grr:
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kitkatrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. heh, I cheated.
Edited on Sat Jun-05-04 02:46 PM by kitkatrose
Now I feel dumb. :( I will agree with whoever said that this was the stupidest game ever.
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bubblesby2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
54. Got it on the secont try........
guess that puts me in the football helmet group.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
55. 6 tries. It's the old "polar bears around the icehole" dice game.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
56. LOL...I looked to my guitar playing to solve it...PATTERNS
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-05-04 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
57. Is there a way to teach yourself to figure out these kinds of puzzles?
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