Bar Owners Turn Tables on Underage Drinkers

[Champ]

SAN FRANCISCO — Bar and liquor store owners are fighting back against underage drinkers that cost them thousands of dollars in profit when they are caught.

San Francisco has no shortage of bars or underage drinkers (search) who try to sneak into them, usually with the help of a fake ID or a valid drivers license they got from a friend. The problem is that if they get caught, they don’t get into much legal trouble.

In California, an underage drinker faces a $250 fine. The bar, on the other hand, stands to lose thousands of dollars and even its liquor license if more than one underage drinker is caught there.

A group of San Francisco bar owners is fighting back by taking underage drinkers to court and making them pay for lost wages and profits. The owner of one bar, Amante's, took a 20-year-old woman to small claims court and won a $5,000 judgment after she used a friend's ID to get in, resulting in a $3,000 fine for the bar.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120594,00.html

[Seeking Serenity]

1. I hope this doesn't brand me as a pro-business GOPer

but my first instinct was to say this was a good thing.

I'm open to considering the alternative position, though.

[LynneSin]

3. I agree 100% with you

why should bars pay for the crimes of the youth.

Personally I think the drinking age should be 18, but that's another arguement

[Seeking Serenity]

5. I agree on the drinking age

If you're old enough to vote, fight, die, sign binding contracts, etc., for your country, why can't you have a whisky sour for your country?

[RoyGBiv]

19. It is a good thing, or at least a more equitable thing...

I have my problems with the drinking age, but as has been said, that's another issue.

Liquor laws are on the whole insane and inequitable. The biggest problem from the business owner's point of view is that there is little to distinguish between the crime of intentionally selling to someone underage, accidentally selling due to carelessness, and selling due to the fraudulent actions of the buyer.

This varies from state to state, but consider Oklahoma, where I ran a liquor store for 7 years. If someone issued a false identification to me in order to purchase liquor that I did not identify and was later caught by the police, this is what could happen:

1) The individual with the false identification would have the ID confiscated and could be charged with a misdemeanor. The maximum fine would be $500.

2) I, as the seller, could have my license revoked, which means I would lose my job and be unable to acquire work in any establishment where liquor is sold ever again in my entire life. I could be charged with a felony, thus losing my right to vote, fined a maximum of $5000, and imprisoned 1-5 years.

It would not matter whether I sold to the underage individual intentionally or whether I failed to identify a false identification. (And let me tell you, spotting some of these false ID's is next to impossible without examining them under a magnifying glass.)

In reality, what would likely happen is this. The buyer caught by the police would, if it were a first or second offense, be given a warning provided the individual identified where s/he purchased the alcohol. I, on a first offense, would be issued a fine of $2500 and charged with a misdemeanor. A note would be placed in my licensing record that would count against me at the time I renewed my license. If I'd committed any other crime prior to requesting a renewal, even something as minor as a traffic violation, this could cause me to lose my license.

On a second offense, again regardless of the circumstances of the sale, I'd go to jail. The buyer would still be hit with nothing worse than a misdemeanor.

In my time working in the liquor business, I never knowingly sold to someone underage, and I was never accused of doing such. So, this is not sour grapes talking here. But, I was lucky. It's one of the reasons I got out of the business. I wasn't being paid to be an enforcement officer for the ABLE commission, but the way the laws are written, that was, in effect, by job.

[CTLawGuy]

2. I think the state should spend more energy

on actual crime such as rape and murder and less on victimless crimes such as legal adults drinking alcohol.

[MAlibdem]

4. It sounds like a good idea for the bars...

If kids are doing irresponsible things, they should accept that there are consequences. The consequences do suck though.

[CTLawGuy]

6. she isnt a kid though

shes 20.


America, the only country with 13 year old adults and 20 year old kids.

[NoPasaran]

8. Agreed

If you're old enough to be sentenced to death, you're old enough to drink.

[Deja Q]

7. I normally don't side with corporate america, but...

I'm siding with the bar. This is a problem and it's a novel solution that probably WILL work.

Underage brats want to be irresponsible and stupid, fine. Let the brats pay for it. I'm sick and tired of teenie-boppers being irresponsible with everybody else paying the price. I bet most of them don't even get the fine.

And especially when driving is involved, I've had it with them.

[Seeking Serenity]

9. I'm glad to see my instincts were correct.

Thanks. :)

[CTLawGuy]

10. shes 20....

"I'm sick and tired of teenie-boppers ..."

Shes old enough to die for Das Reich, so she isn't a "teenie-bopper"

[RoyGBiv]

11. True enough...

But this really only makes it worse. She's old enough for a lot of things, including acting as though she's a responsible adult. Let's not pretend her actions were any more noble than they were. It's highly doubtful she went in there to make some statement about being "old enough to die, old enough to drink." She most likely went into that bar to get drunk, and she did so by forging her identity. If she wants to do that fine, but for the bar owner and employees to be held more accountable that the individual instigating the crime is wrong.

[7th_Sephiroth]

12. this is a fucking joke

its a product of another War on...(tm) why the fuck does everything have to be a war? why cany they just lower the legal drinking age to 18? oh, wait, insureance company lobbyists dont like that

[Seeking Serenity]

13. That's not really the argument here, though, is it?

If an adult person does someting illegal that directly harms someone else, that someone else should have recourse besides just the criminal system, don'cha think?

[7th_Sephiroth]

14. i bring up

valid points

[Seeking Serenity]

15. I agree that the drinking age should be lowered.

What is your view about this particular issue, apart from whether 18-year-olds should be allowed to legally drink alcohol?

[7th_Sephiroth]

17. i say

"underage" drinking in the sense of those who are old enough and responsible enough, is more of a form of protest to thier legal rights being suppressed, the others just wana get wasted, not knowing the concenquences, alchohol IS a poison and you can die from drinking too much of it,they really ought to have in middle school, a class designed to educate about it and warn them the dangers of drinking too much

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. The law is too fucked up

The store gets swindled and THEY are punished for that?

My take: the loony prudes just want to return to Prohibition and arrest everybody who makes or sells alcohol, period. They can't do it, but this is as close as it gets.

[7th_Sephiroth]

18. this is what you get

when the country is run by "good christians"