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Mass_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:46 PM
Original message
We as humans, are meant to eat animals
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:48 PM by Mass_Liberal
its that simple. Every animal preys on or eats something else. It's the food chain. That's how life works. Why is this so hard to comprehend?? Now, because humanity has found ways to secure its food source it is possible to be a vegetarian. Fine. I have no beef with that. But don't act as if others are being monsters for acting perfectly naturally in eating meat.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree, but let me throw in some caveats
After all we are liberals and should never make black or white statements.

We are meant to eat animals, but we should do our part to be Responsible Carnivores. Although I love beef, it does take a big toll on the environment. In addition, it can be dangerous with mad cow now in the US. A responsible beef eater would eat beef as a treat, and would buy vegetarian-fed beef.

Chickens and Turkeys take much less toll on the environment, however the mass production of these birds is also dangrous an negligent. Choosing vegetarian fed chicken and turkeys, raised under sanitary conditions and not fed antibiotics and hormones would also be a responsible practice.

Okay - soap box time done.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. The sad thing is
The cost differential. It costs a lot of money to buy grain fed beef, I didn't even know there was a special category for vegetarian fed chicken or turkeys - but I'm sure they're more than I could afford.

I hate that the cheapest food is the least nutritious / most unhealthy. *sigh*
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Depends on where you shop
Trader Joes sells anti-biotic and hormone free chicken and turkey (Diestel Ranch) for only pennies more than regular chicken. They haven't started on good beef yet - but they are starting soon.

Also check out your local food co-operatives. True, vegetarians have run out a lot of the carnivores in recent years, but there are still some which haven't been subjected to the takeovers.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Hope they open one here soon!
All we have is Whole Foods, and they are ridiculously high-priced.

Thanks for the tip on the co-op... I'll have to check that out! :)
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Co-ops are KEWL!
You can volunteer time at some, and then get up to a 10% discount on the food. They are group managed and democratically run most of the time.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I hope there are some around here
Growing up in TX, you learn to have very low expectations about these types of things. :)
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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Your source?
To really know, you'd almost have to raise the animals yourself. How many are in a position to do that?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Niman Ranch and Diestel Ranch have good practices
I've toured the facilities. Oh and they are unapologetically UNION shops too!
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. I am so tempted to turn this into a sex thread
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carolinayellowdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. Meant? by whom? according to what evidence?
Most primates are vegetarian, if that kind of argument appeals to you.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. We can't break down beta glycosidic links
Physiology...check out our dentition, too, for more evidence that we're omnivores. Ditto gut length. Vegetarianism is NOT natural to us -- I do agree, though, that if you combine the foods right it can be very healthy, certainly more so than carnivorous gluttony and especially in today's world of dubious food additives and processing.

Many primates are also omnivorous. Certainly chimps, that are about as close to us as it's possible to get.
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Mass_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
34. Meant, meaning that we evolved that way
Our ancestors hunted for meat, as well as gathering berries and plants and such. We have the jaws to be able to eat meat. We have the teeth to be able to eat meat. That's what I mean by "meant". I'm not talking about God or anything. I'm an athiest.
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Comadreja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Omnivorous Primates, true...BUT
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:53 PM by Axel
We aren't equipped to handle the hormones,toxins, bacilli, and killer proteins that taint today's animal products. The real "monsters" are the corrupt crony capitalists responsible for this mess. Of course, if you choose to consume these, that's your right.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. The shape of our teeth doen't support that notion
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:54 PM by depakote_kid
Have a look at carnivore teeth and compare them to our own-

Great Apes are and hominids were primarily (or exclusively) vegetarians. The reason it's "so hard to comprehend" that humans were meant to eat meat is because the evidence simply doesn't support it. Meat eating on any substantial scale is a VERY recent (and depending on the source of meat, rather unhealthy) development....
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. The shape of our teeth also don't support an herbivorous notion, either
We're omnivores...we've got elements of carnivore and herbivore dentition, but we're not really great at either mode. We're a compromise, in that respect.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. When compared with some hominds
like Australopithics Boisei, this is true and can be seen not only in dentation but in other skull morphology, such as the points where the ligamentts for much stronger jaw muscles attach. Compared with the other surviving apes (or some other extinct hominds) Sapiens is not specialized- particularly for meat eating. For the most part, the omnivore (or opportunist) applies, though like most other animals that have similar strategies (like bears) plant materials largely dominate(d) the diet.
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Mass_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. thats just not true
our ancestors were hunters. Eating meat is not even vaguely recent. Of course, for a long time, most people couldn't afford to eat meat. But if they could they always did.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. then why don't we have teeth for tearing meat apart?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. We do
We have recessed canines...which means we did use them a lot more but have since recessed and grown smaller due to non-use.

Early hominid skulls do show the same sized canines, HOWEVER researchers think they were smaller due to being worn down.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. i' like to see you tear apart a dead animal
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Like I said, recessed
Man has been hunting in packs and using tools for some time, so our canines have recessed from lack of use. Much like pinky toes and appendices.
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. you said there was no real evidence...
btw, i'm a voracious meat eater. love that garth pic
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Whitacre D_WI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. Can I?
I've torn apart many dead animals with my teeth!

Sure, most were more or less cooked....
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. The canines are are typically used for sexual display
Edited on Thu May-06-04 04:13 PM by depakote_kid
and assertion of dominance among apes and other primates. Their usefulnes for killing prey or slashing meat is limited- though they do inflict a nasty bite.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. How did that character get there in the first place?
Secondarily derived as a courtship/agonistic trait...canines don't just magically sprout for no reason, though they can become exaggerated as an indicator of male (typically) quality.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Some common ancestor back way back in the Eocene
could well have been a carnivore- the characteristic of binocular vision cetainly supports that presumption. That they've hung around shows they have some use, but not necessarily what that use is....
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Kinda my point
except that the ancestor wouldn't have needed to be a carnivore...could have just been an omnivore (frugivore, for that matter) with decent, but not spectacular canines. Runaway selection for large canines could have begun as a defensive trait and canine size could then just have exaggerated via selection as a desirable trait, because of their utility in territorial/hierarchical disputes (as well as an antipredatory device) and because they're a 'handicap' investment that suggests the male is one bad mother... (shut your mouth!)



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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Welcome to the peace and quiet of the Lounge!
Edited on Thu May-06-04 03:55 PM by BurtWorm
;)

(I told you it was a trap!)
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. i'm a little fired up today! n/t
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TheBlob Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Cooked or uncooked?
:shrug:
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gpandas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. uncooked, of course n/t
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WVhill Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
12. That depends on an individual's blood type.
Those with type O thrive on a heavy meat diet. Those with A or B type blood don't do as well. Someone with type B blood should eat as little meat as possible.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Interesting!
Where did you hear that from? Have a source I could check out? Sounds fascinating!
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Whitacre D_WI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. Oh, no... my mom's on the blood type diet.
But her book says type B folks should eat the MOST meat.

Lucky me! :9
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. Well every animal may eat
but certainly not every animal eats other animals or preys on them.

There are herbivores.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. I'm having some meatballs right now
and they're delicious.

I think people should eat or not eat whatever they want but they shouldn't bitch and moan b/c others are eating or not eating it.
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Gothic Sponge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. Read
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Fair enough on health and other advantages of vegetarianism, but
the rest is just utter crap. Not just pseudoscience, but selective psuedoscience.
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Unperson 309 Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. I Don't Mind Meat...

but if we are what we eat, we are ingesting cruelty.

If one believes in Karmic Debt, the animals we raise and kill for food are horribly treated and we take in their suffering with each bite. Better to treat livestock humanely, allow them *some* quality of life before slaughter, and TEACH our children that what they have between those hamburger buns once lived under the sun and enjoyed crisp fall mornings just like we humans do.

If every meal takes a life, then let us at least give that life a merciful ending.

309
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FreeSpeechCrusader Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Welcome to DU...
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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Nice :)
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
39. What got you so pissed about this subject
Mass_Liberal?
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4_Legs_Good Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
42. It cracks me up that people get so pissed off about murder...
... but are completely fine about throwing a big slab of steaming flesh onto their burger in order to do no more than satisfy their taste buds.

You can evolve OUT of things as well as evolving INTO them. Don't we yet live in an enlightened enough age that we can see that cows and chimps are not all that much different than Rosa and Michael and Yassim?

If one believes that humans are somehow special and endowed with a "soul" while other animals aren't than *maybe* I can see an excuse to eat meat, but PLEASE don't tell me that my cat doesn't have a personality and life of its own.

david
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Huh?
"You can evolve OUT of things as well as evolving INTO them. Don't we yet live in an enlightened enough age that we can see that cows and chimps are not all that much different than Rosa and Michael and Yassim?"

Well I don't think anyone here is advocating eating chimpanzees, but clearly there is a difference of sentience between cows and humans.
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4_Legs_Good Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. A difference yes, maybe, but enough of a difference...
to make that yummy burger not at least slightly morally ambiguous?

Cows, chickens, rabbits, deer, etc., etc., etc. strive for the same goals in life most of us humans (and chimps) do. We raise our families, care for our children, enjoy the weather, freak out when attacked, build relationships, mate, etc.

Maybe cows can't read, but neither can a lot of people.

Of course, I'm stretching here, but I don't think that this is nearly as crazy a notion as it sounds.

Put me in a situation where I *need* to eat meat, and watch me go at it, but until then I'll try to find ways around it.

david
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. okay.... :)
"Put me in a situation where I *need* to eat meat, and watch me go at it, but until then I'll try to find ways around it."

Vitamin B12

Find another source - even supplements are animal based.

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4_Legs_Good Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Eggs. Milk.
From my happy, well treated buddies! I give them food, they give me eggs! I give them love, they give me more eggs! (no not fertilized ones!)

david
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. "clearly there is a difference of sentience between cows and humans."
How so?

Cows don't feel pain? Cows don't know fear? Cows don't have affection for their young?

How do you know what cows think?

The hubris of humans knows no bounds.
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
43. Our physiological need for vitamin B12 is the biggest evidence
Without vitamin B12, we develop pernicious anemia and our red blood cells cannot function to carry oxygen. The only way to get B12 is through some type of animal product barring supplements (a fairly recent historical development). Simply put, humans would have died out long ago is veganism was the norm.
Now, that being said, I have nothing against vegans or vegetarians. That's their choice and there are supplements that they can take and effectively remain healthy with their eating style which on the other side can have health benefits as well.
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GirlinContempt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Well...
Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae have all been proposed as possible sources of B12. They're still testing, so far as I know
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SarahB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. If it works, great!
Like I said, it's cool with me and I understand the benefits. I'm just saying that physiologically, it wasn't our original design.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-06-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
47. Don't know where I heard this joke
A little girl goes to a friend's house to have dinner. The parents are strict vegetarians. The mother calmly explained that it was wrong to eat to kill something just to eat it, and God gave us all of these fruits and vegetables to eat.
The little girl, now upset, said, "Well, if God didn't want us to eat cows, then why did He make them out of meat?"

My thoughts exactly.
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