Has anyone ever done the Hajj Pilgrimage?

[LynneSin]

If you don't know what that is, it's the Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca.

The reason I asked is because I watched this fascinating show called "Pilgrimage to Mecca" which followed 4 people from Great Britain who were doing the pilgrimage to Mecca.

It was a great documentary that made you feel like you were actually a part of the pilgrimage and I found it quite fascinating. Although I'm a pretty devout Christian, I would love to do the pilgrimage once in my lifetime (one of the 4 they followed was a Christian lady who made the pilgrimage and ended up converting).

Anyone?

[forgethell]

1. I didn't see the show,

and I have no interest in going to the Mid-East just now, but how could a Christian lady go? My understanding is that it is forbidden for non-Muslims to go to Mecca. I further understand that it is a death-penalty offense. I definitely recall reading about a National Geographic photographer who was not allowed by NG to fly in a helicopter over Mecca because they were afraid of what would happen to him if it crashed. He wound up suing them for religious discrimination. Sorry, I don't have a link to that, it was several years ago.

I would gladly learn differently, if anyone has any information.

[LynneSin]

2. I have no idea how she managed it

however, she was originally a christian but now a muslim. Basically she looked like your typical british grandmother!

[jobycom]

3. I don't know. The Saudi government is rough on Xians, but Qur'an

protects them. The Qur'an prevents forced conversions, forbids the killings of Christians and Jews, and considers them People of the Book (a phrase with a few interpretations). The Saudi government, on the other hand, is not so tolerant of Christians, especially post 9-11. There was a story last year about a Christian prisoner in Mecca that might have been executed, but he was a Christian with a Muslim name, so Arab police may have thought he had converted from Islam to Christianity. THAT is punishable by death in countries with a strict interpretation of the Qur'an (some countries are worse than others. Saudi Arabia is the Texas of the Middle East). This prisoner was captured somewhere else and brought to a Meccan jail, so Christians are at least allowed in jails in or near Mecca.

As for whether Christians are banned in the city of Mecca, or in the Mosque, I don't know. They are banned from entering the Kabah (sorry, may be wrong spelling), which is the temple around the rock inside the mosque. That may be what you are thinking.

A helicopter flying above the holiest object in your culture would be problematic no matter who flew it, I imagine. Especially if it was during Hajj.

I had a history professor who visited Mecca. He was a Christian. He didn't see the rock, though.

On edit: Upon reread, I realize that saying the Qur'an forbids the killing of Christians and Jews is not exactly right. It gives them a protected status inside Muslim lands, and forbids them from being killed simply for being there and being non-Muslim. Other faiths are not given this benefit, and are in theory forced to convert to Islam or leave, or in some cases face execution. Hindus are sometimes considered People of the Book, too. Christians and Jews can retain their religion in Muslim lands.

[forgethell]

5. Well, I could well be wrong

about the details.

When I was young, I lived in the Phillipine Islands. Once I visited, with my parents, a Baptist church there. The pastor was a converted Moro (Muslim) pirate and murderer. He confessed it from his pulpit. Before he 'found Christ', as he put it, he believed that for every Christian that he killed, he had another slave in heaven. Pleasant little philosophy.

My point. There are undoubtedly numerous peacful Muslims in the world. There are just as undoubtedly non-peacful ones. Of course, you can say that there are non-peaceful Christians, or Hindus, or maybe even pagans or Buddhists, and you would be right. But, as far as I can determine, none of those other groups have any sub-groups intent on converting the world to their religion by force or destroying it. I am specifically including fundie christians in this statement. So don't tell me about Armageddon. In the fundie world-view, God will do the destruction, they don't have to.

[LynneSin]

6. I was also shocked that they filmed the documentary

I thought they were not keen on filming or photos of this place

[jobycom]

7. Explain which Muslim subgroups you mean

I know Christians who are always saying "Nuke Iraq." Ann Coulter said "Kill their leaders, convert them all." I hear Christians say that all the time. There are subgroups like Randal Terry's and Fred Phelp's who believe in forcible conversion of people who disagree with them, and justify killing of those who are different. Christianity has very violent offshoots

I'm sure there are Muslims who are just as hate-filled and bigotted as Christians. But the Qur'an forbids forced conversions, so Muslims who believe in them are going against the literal word of Allah. I'd choose Islam as a peaceful religion over Christianity any day of the week. On gender issues, they are about even, except that Christians have to deal with governments that don't support their bigotry, and Muslims have largely historically patriarchal governments who let them get away with it.

I don't see a difference. Those who want to be good will be good, and those who want to be bad will be as bad as their governments allow them to be, and both sides will use their religion to justify it. We too often confuse the religion of Islam with the cultural and governmental structures in which it operates.

[LynneSin]

8. My attitude about religion:

about 99% of them are peaceful and 1% are raging nutbag killers in the name of their religion. Unfortunately it's those nutbags that make the rest of us look bad!!

[forgethell]

9. What countries are more

female friendly than America and Western European countries? What religion is the traditional one of these places? What religion is the primary one (observed at least nominally) of the countries whose governments do not tolerate bigotry? What is the religion of the countries whose governments encourage it? Why do Muslims immigrate in large numbers to the USA and WEstern Europe? why do very few Americans or Europeans emigrate to Muslim countries?

Peaceful? What about the conquest of the Eastern Roman Empire by fanatical religious zealots of the Muslim variety? Name 3 current wars that Muslims are not involved in.

Why are the governments and cultures of the Islamic Mid-East almost all so very repressive?

Have you got a link to Randal Terry or Fred Phelp (sorry I never heard of the last) expressing a belief that forced conversions were desirable?

I'm not going to defend "nuke 'em", or Ann coulter's comments, either, but they strike me as somewhat facetious. In any event, they are just words. What about the forced conversions of Christian girls even now taking place in Egypt? http://home.swipnet.se/~w-93281/islamrte.htm or http://www.jubileecampaign.co.uk/world/egy13.htmThis is unIslamic, right? Where are the denunciations of this by mainstream Islamic groups?

"I'm sure there are Muslims who are just as hate-filled and bigoted as Christians"?? This is stereotypical thinking, bucko. I'm sure there are Muslims as peaceful and loving as Christians, too. But they haven't made the newspapers just yet.

Look, as you say, there are good people and bad people in ALL religions. But the groups that I mean are the ones blowing themselves to hell along with innocent Israeli women and children. The ones who hijack airplanes, slit our stewardesses throats, and fly the planes into our buildings killing thousands. The ones that I mean are the ones that danced in the streets when news of this crime hit the airwaves. They ones that I mean are the ones who teach their children ot hate, and sacrifice them on the alters of Moloch (this is a metaphor for what's going on in Palestine).

[jobycom]

10. I think you've forgotten who invaded who

Your Christian nation is the aggressor in Iraq and Afghanistan, and most non-American or non-Israeli nations believe Israel is the aggressor in their conflicts with Islamic nations. And it is SPECIFICALLY the Christian element in America who is most gungho for slaughtering tens of thousands of Muslims overseas because we are offended by hearing news stories of them not liking us. Over the last 15 years, Muslims in military or terrorist acts have killed at the outside 4,000 Americans, and most of those were in one horrific act performed by one renegade who happens to be Muslim. Most of the rest of them were killed by the same renegade.

We have killed over 400,000 Muslims, and that's a lowball number. So Christians are killing Muslims at 100 times the rate Muslims are killing Christians. Both sides claim ultimate justification, but the numbers reveal the truth.

And while America MAY be more "female friendly," that is certainly not the fault of either of the largest denominations of America. The Baptists have always held and recently reaffirmed that women are subservient to men, and the Catholics forbid not only abortion, but birth control and divorce. Both denominations, and in fact most, refuse to allow women in their highest orders. America has had to overcome its Christian element to further the rights of individuals, so don't credit our "christian" heritage for "female friendliness."

And Ann Coulter's comments were not facetious, any more than Bush's call for a "Crusade" was. "Crusade" has a similar meaning as "jihad," but the true meaning of jihad is an internal struggle against temptations and obstacles. It is usually misunderstood and mistranslated by our media.

I repeat, Islam both in theory and practice is more peaceful than Christianity. Jesus himself may have preached peace, but since both Christianity and Islam venerate Jesus, his words don't make Christianity better. Few Christians even seem to care what Jesus said.

[bloodyjack]

11. *scoff*

this isn't a christian country. i don't care what percentage of churchgoers actually believe in what parts of the sunday sermon they don't sleep through. calling for a "crusade" against the arab world followed by mass conversions? that's unabashed nihilism, plain and simple.

[jobycom]

13. I didn't call it such. nt.

[forgethell]

16. What a crock!!

What a crock!!

Every word that you said is a lie!

First, while I stand by the assertion that culturally America is a Christian nation, officially it is secular. While there is certainly a good case that we should not have gone into Iraq, Afghanistan was sheltering and supporting the terrorists who killed 3000 of us. I don’t think that it can be called ‘aggression. You must run with a bad crowd. I know of no Americans enthusiastic about “slaughtering” anyone. Certainly not because they “don’t like us”, and we are “offended” by that. If anybody is so entusiastic, it’s because they are trying to KILL us.

Now, given that you are correct that they have only slaughtered 4000 of us over the last 15 years, and that we have killed 400,000 of them, so what? If 20 men are attacking you with clubs and fists and knives, and you have a gun, should you stop shooting them before they have quit? OK, if that’s your choice. But I would rather have the one live me and the 20 dead them than the other way. This is not to say that you should continue shooting if they stopped attacking. And it is not a defense of the Iraq war either. And I hope that you will take nothing in this response to be such. I am responding to specific statements made by you. If, for the sake of argument, we assume that the 4000 dead over the last 15 years justify our defending ourselves by war, then we should assume that we will try to kill more of them than they of us. The war is either right or wrong based of factors of national defense and security, but the number of enemy casualties is not a disqualifying factor. You WANT, in war, to kill enough of the enemy to cause them to surrender. So your logic is false, even fatuous.

It’s obvious that you know nothing of the Baptists. There are a number of Baptist churches that have ordained women. Each Baptist church is totally independent. I don’t mean just the denominations, which are also independent of each other, but each and every local congregation. Churches enter and leave various denominations at will. They can belong to more than one at a time. They can be affiliated with none at all. They will even split into two churches at the drop of a hat. So your comments about “Baptists” are pretty “stereotypical”.

And do you really believe that refusal to ordain a woman, who is free to join a church that will, is equivalent, as far as oppression of women is concerned, to being one of 4 wives of one man, while you can’t marry but one? Do you believe, seriously now, that it is equivalent to not being able to leave the country (Saudi Arabia) without your father or husband’s permission?

Now I am not a Catholic, so I feel no great need to defend them. However, is being opposed to abortion, birth control, and divorce as bad as being the victim of an “honor” killing because you committed adultery, OR WERE RAPED?? OK, if you say so. Is it as bad as female circumcision, also know as “female genital mutilation”? If you insist. But I think that Christianity at its worst is better for women than the current state of much of Islam. I don’t know every situation in the world, of course.

Ann Coulter: yes I think that she was being facetious, but I suppose that I could be wrong. But what actor was it that called for violence against a certain Republican lawmaker, and his family. Was he being facetious? If not, why isn’t he in jail? As liberals, we cannot demand that irony, sarcasm, humor, ridicule, insult and other verbal weapons be limited for our use alone. Or we can, I suppose, but I don’t expect the conservatives will do more than laugh at us and continue.

About “crusade”: there is more than one definition. From AOL keyword ‘dictionary’: “a remedial enterprise undertaken with zeal and enthusiasm”. From www.dictionary.com : “A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse. See Synonyms at campaign.”
So, as you can see, ‘crusade’, like ‘jihad’ has more than one meaning. I am concerned about the one that means “kill the infidel’. I really don’t mind as long as people keep their struggles “internal”.

Islam in both theory and practice is more peaceful than Christianity? Let us admit that both have had violent episodes in the past. Islam roared out of the Arabian Peninsula and conquered the Eastern Roman Empire (Christian). They swarmed into the Iberian Peninsula and “occupied” it for 700 years. Would you believe that the Crusaders themselves believed that they were fighting a defensive war to reclaim lands lost to an aggressive Islam? Well, according to what I understand, they did.

However, in order to make this exchange short enough to be doable, let’s just limit ourselves to the present, or at least recent times. Please limit yourself to acts performed explicitly in the name of advancing Christianity. Acts by the insane, or done for personal reasons don’t count. I suppose we could consider political acts on a case-by-case basis.

What are the equivalent Christian acts to suicide bombings, hijackings of airplanes and/or flying them into buildings filled with thousands of innocent people, beheading of innocent captives and videotaping same, taking of hostages to exchange for imprisoned terrorists and an exchange rate of 100s to 1, slitting of young women’s throats, recruiting retarded children to perform the aforesaid suicide bombings? Name me 3 wars currently being conducted, that Muslims are not involved in. So much for practice.

Now for theory, I offer these verses from the Holy Koran (sorry, I can’t ever remember how to spell it the other way)


<9.123> O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

<2.191> And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

I especially like this next one:

9.29: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

And this one is a doozy.

9.73: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination

Now there may be some episodes in the Old Testament with equal bloodthirstiness, but that was for the Israelites. Find something in the New Testament for Christians to do. And, no, I’m not interested about what God may, or may not do. I have no control over him. I’m interested in where He commands Christians to Kill or Fight other PEOPLE, not Satan, in order to convert them.

Now, one last mistake that you make. Christians do not ‘venerate’ Christ; they worship Him. There is a considerable difference. And your last sentence is another stereotype.




:think:

[jobycom]

4. There are a limited number of people allowed from each country

There are limits on how many people can make the Hajj from each country each year, and I think you have to file a permit. There is a lesser pilgrimmage each year, and that is not limited.

[SmileyBoy]

12. Ins'allah, in a few years, my father and I will go.

He's 63 years old, and has never gone. I need to take him there very soon. I might take my brother along, too.

And none of us have gone yet.

[jobycom]

15. Do you know the answer to the above question?

About whether a non-Muslim is forbidden to visit Mecca, or the Mosque, or the Ka'ba?

And best wishes on making the journey.

[NMDemDist2]

14. i get freaked out in crowds

don't think the ol ticker would take it